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The Elder Wand



 
 
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  #81  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:41 pm
jlpforpotter  Undisclosed.gif jlpforpotter is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

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Originally Posted by vedica View Post
in which case, harry has been using expelliarmus on god knows how many people, all those wands now belong to him? :
Yes, but Harry did not catch any of the wands that he has disarmed from others before. He therefore never laid claim to any of the other wands before.

Although, now I think of it, did Draco catch DD wand at the top of the tower in HBP?


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  #82  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:03 pm
Guajaj  Female.gif Guajaj is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

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Originally Posted by ladyblack23 View Post
Every one master has defeated the one before. Including Grindlewald.

"Then the intruder shot a Stunning Spell from his wand and jumped ...." DH UK kids version page 230. Grindlewald stunned Gregorovich, thus filling the requirements of "defeating" him.
Thanks for the quote. That definately shows that Grindelwald did defeat Gregorovitch, and claim ownership and possession of the Elder wand. Ownership being the 'master' of the wand.

Ownership: Gregorovich > Grindelwald > Dumbledore > Malfoy > Harry
Possession: Gregorovich > Grindelwald > Dumbledore >>>>>>>> Voldemort > Harry

Because Harry was the Master of the wand, while Voldy tried to use it against him, it didn't work, except for in the case where Harry was ready to die.


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  #83  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:36 pm
wallflowerrr  Female.gif wallflowerrr is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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So, even though Harry disarmed Draco and took the HAWTHORNE wand at Malfoy Manor, the Elder Wand switched loyalties to him too?

OK then.
Well, yes, because Draco was the new master of the wand, even if he didn't have it, and Harry 'defeated' Draco so to speak, so he was the new master.

What I don't get is - if the Elder Wand meant that the person with the wand COULDN'T lose, then how the hell did everyone defeat the wand's masters to become it's new master!
whaaaat the.
And if Grindelwald STOLE the wand, then how was he it's new master? And how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald if he had an unbeatable wand? And so how did Dumbledore become the wand's new master if he took it from Grindelwald who stole it, and never really defeated it's previous master?
REHHH


Quote:
The one thing I don't understand about this book is what Dumbledore's original plan for the Elder Wand was after his death. Why did he intend for it to come into Snape's possession? Surely that's dangerous, as proven when Voldemort thinks that Snape is the master of the wand, because that's the easiest route to Voldemort getting his hand on the wand. What have I missed!?
I guess that Dumbledore guessed that since the wand was unbeatable, Snape would be able to kill Voldemort quickly and effectively??



Last edited by wallflowerrr; July 24th, 2007 at 2:45 pm.
  #84  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:51 pm
BeetleSkeeter  Female.gif BeetleSkeeter is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by DruidMorgana View Post
I don't think Dumbledore thought that Voldemort would be able to trace the Elder wand to him: Grindlewald stole it and, perhaps because he was a better man than Voldemort, perhaps out of some residual filial love for Albus, was determined or promised, maybe under Unbreakable Vow, never to tell anyone.
Gregorovich didn't know where the wand was or even who the thief was and, lets face it, it was an enormous stroke of luck for Voldemort to find the picture. I think that Dumbledore simply made a big mistake.
I don't know -- was it a mistake? It almost seemed like Dumbledore was sending Snape to his death with the original plan because he knew that Voldemort would go after the Elder Wand (I think he tells Harry this at King's Cross). Maybe he knew Snape would probably die anyway, because Voldemort would still mistakenly think that Snape had defeated Dumbledore to get the wand.

I don't know if Dumbledore told Snape about the Elder Wand, but my question is, was Dumbledore knowingly sending Snape to his death by doing this?


  #85  
Old July 24th, 2007, 2:58 pm
JediBeldarine  Female.gif JediBeldarine is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I'm not sure why, but the Elder Wand concept makes perfect sense to me.

One of Rowling's major themes is that there are many things worse than death -- that you do not need to kill someone to defeat them. The Elder Wand ties into this theme. The whole "kill someone to take control of the wand" is a red herring -- something that originated in the lore surrounding the wand, not something that truly reflected the aspects of the wand. I have to wonder how many of the people who possessed the wand truly had power over it. Remember, the wand chooses the master so just because someone has possession of the Elder Wand doesn't mean they truly have power over it.

Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch when he was young. He gained mastery of it because of his delusions of uniting the wizarding populace (and because he technically had defeated Greg.). Dumbledore explained how he gained mastery of it (the wand consented to him using it because he did not want to kill with it and he had defeated Grindelwald). Draco was given mastery of it BECAUSE HE DEFEATED DUMBLEDORE WITH NO INTENT OF KILLING HIM.

Did you see that?

If Draco had not gotten there first, had not disarmed Dumbledore before Snape arrived... the wand's allegiance would have died with Dumbledore because of Snape killing him. He never intended Snape to have power over the wand, he intended Snape to kill him and thus end the Elder Wand's true power. Just to kill isn't enough -- you have to defeat the person (take their wand away permanently) without the intent of killing him. That's what makes the wand so powerful; it's just that the story got corrupted over time.

Anyway... back to Draco. Harry takes the wand away from Draco, again with no intent to kill him, thus defeating him in battle. Thus, the Elder Wand switches allegiance to Harry. These are magical objects, they don't have to be in possession of the Elder Wand to have the true mastery of it.

Voldemort could never have gained mastery over the wand because he never intended to defeat opponents, he intended to kill them (and because Dumbledore didn't have mastery over the wand... Harry did)... and that seems anathema to the Elder Wand's purpose.

So... in a sense... if Harry is ever defeated in battle, yes... the Elder Wand could pass on to someone else... but that's assuming he's actually defeated in battle. Practice dueling and playing around won't cut it... it has to be a battle and he has to be defeated, his wand taken from him permanently.

I don't know... that's the gist I got from reading


  #86  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:00 pm
Cashim  Undisclosed.gif Cashim is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Eh? What is true of the Elder Wand is, presumably, true of all wands. If JKR is trying to argue that disarming someone causes their wand to switch loyalties, then Harry's wand should have switched loyalties to Lupin in PoA. It didn't.
because the Elder wand is different from any other wands

like Olivander said, even if a wand doesnt choose you, over time it will gradually be at its full potential, but with the Elder wand, it needs a master that it chose for it to perform at its full potential


  #87  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:12 pm
ForeverMonday  Female.gif ForeverMonday is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by HardtoImagine View Post
Good point...this EW business is becoming more confusing by the minute. I really hope that just stealing it doesn't tranfer the power. It wouldn't make any sense to me because Voldemort just stole it from DD's grave or from Draco apparently. The battle between GW and Gregorovitch must have been glossed over or something, no?
You're right! If you can take possession of the EW by stealing it, then Voldemort should be the owner of the wand. I wonder what really happened between Grindelwald and Gregorovitch.


  #88  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:18 pm
BeetleSkeeter  Female.gif BeetleSkeeter is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by JediBeldarine View Post
If Draco had not gotten there first, had not disarmed Dumbledore before Snape arrived... the wand's allegiance would have died with Dumbledore because of Snape killing him. He never intended Snape to have power over the wand, he intended Snape to kill him and thus end the Elder Wand's true power. Just to kill isn't enough -- you have to defeat the person (take their wand away permanently) without the intent of killing him. That's what makes the wand so powerful; it's just that the story got corrupted over time.
I like your analysis of the Elder Wand. I know you weren't probably replying to my post, but I still wonder if Dumbledore knew Voldemort would make this mistake, thinking he needed to kill, and that Voldemort would think he needed to kill Snape ... was Dumbledore sending Snape to his death? Or, possibly, do you think he thought Snape would have faked his death?


  #89  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:25 pm
JediBeldarine  Female.gif JediBeldarine is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by BeetleSkeeter View Post
I like your analysis of the Elder Wand. I know you weren't probably replying to my post, but I still wonder if Dumbledore knew Voldemort would make this mistake, thinking he needed to kill, and that Voldemort would think he needed to kill Snape ... was Dumbledore sending Snape to his death? Or, possibly, do you think he thought Snape would have faked his death?

That's a really good question.

I do believe that Dumbledore is certainly capable of sending people to their deaths (it's been shown that he's not all goodness and light) if it benefits what he perceives as "good".... but to what point would Snape's death be worth? Snape was acting oddly in the Shrieking Shack, almost like he knew what Voldemort planned on doing (killing him, at least). I'll have to read that part again (which, of course, my husband took to work today)... but I really don't know.


  #90  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:26 pm
Cashim  Undisclosed.gif Cashim is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by ForeverMonday View Post
You're right! If you can take possession of the EW by stealing it, then Voldemort should be the owner of the wand. I wonder what really happened between Grindelwald and Gregorovitch.
nah, the elder wand did not choose Voldemort to be its master when he stole it from Dumbledore because Dumbledore was not its master then, Draco was its master from the momment he disarmed Dumbledore to Harry overpowering Draco.

as for Grindelwald and Gregorovitch, i seem to recall Grindelwald used stupify on Gregorovitch after stealing the elder wand. Lets just presume he used a different wand for the stunning spell.


  #91  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:26 pm
sboyajian sboyajian is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I think you are all wrong in the allegiance of the wand. You hold to many "rules" in place.. the wand was created by Death.. it has loopholes, death always creates things with loopholes when someone seeks something in gain... (the only one with no loophole was the cloak, because it did not make you more powerful than death himself -- he had a flaw like Voldemort, he believe power over intelligence).

The Elder Wand did not switch loyalties to Harry when Harry disarmed Draco. Draco's other wand did. Wands do not necessarily switch loyalties because their wizard was defeated (killed, yes), they switch when they themselves are defeated. Harry never defeated the Elder Wand .. thus it still rightfully belonged to Draco, which is why it still didn't work for Voldemort.

It chose Harry, because when the eldest brother wanted it created by Death, he stated the Wand should be "a wand worthy of a wizard who had conquered Death!"

Voldemort had not conquered death, Harry Had. Just like Dumbledore had (in the sense that dumbledore, like the youngest brother who lived a full life, did not fear death and embraced death as if they were old friends). When the wand recognized Harry as someone who has conquered death (twice) and was also not afraid of it, the wand recognized him as it's true master.



Last edited by sboyajian; July 24th, 2007 at 3:32 pm.
  #92  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:36 pm
PadfootLuvsMe  Female.gif PadfootLuvsMe is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

^^Wow! That was really good! I never thought of that.

Harry had conquered death, and Voldemort was trying, but even with the Horcruxes, he still died.

I think you guys have the whole Elder Wand thing down!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeetleSkeeter
I like your analysis of the Elder Wand. I know you weren't probably replying to my post, but I still wonder if Dumbledore knew Voldemort would make this mistake, thinking he needed to kill, and that Voldemort would think he needed to kill Snape ... was Dumbledore sending Snape to his death? Or, possibly, do you think he thought Snape would have faked his death?
I'm not sure. I don't think he was sending Snape to his death, nor do I think he was faking. I know Dumbledore did have some skeletons in his closet, but I don't think he would've meant for Voldemort kill Snape. However, he probably knew that that would be one outcome. It's all for the cause, right? They're taking Voldemort down. And it's like someone said in 'Which person would you save' thread: Snape is probably happy in death because he's united with Lily.


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  #93  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:37 pm
Cashim  Undisclosed.gif Cashim is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by sboyajian View Post
I think you are all wrong in the allegiance of the wand. You hold to many "rules" in place.. the wand was created by Death.. it has loopholes, death always creates things with loopholes when someone seeks something in gain... (the only one with no loophole was the cloak, because it did not make you more powerful than death himself -- he had a flaw like Voldemort, he believe power over intelligence).

The Elder Wand did not switch loyalties to Harry when Harry disarmed Draco. Draco's other wand did. Wands do not necessarily switch loyalties because their wizard was defeated (killed, yes), they switch when they themselves are defeated. Harry never defeated the Elder Wand .. thus it still rightfully belonged to Draco, which is why it still didn't work for Voldemort.

It chose Harry, because when the eldest brother wanted it created by Death, he stated the Wand should be "a wand worthy of a wizard who had conquered Death!"

Voldemort had not conquered death, Harry Had. Just like Dumbledore had (in the sense that dumbledore, like the youngest brother who lived a full life, did not fear death and embraced death as if they were old friends). When the wand recognized Harry as someone who has conquered death (twice) and was also not afraid of it, the wand recognized him as it's true master.
Dumbledore already said or presumed that the three brothers were unlikely to have met Death himself on the road, and said that they themselves created those items

and as with LoTR "History became Legend, Legend became myth"

in this case, it became a children's tale


  #94  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:38 pm
WhiteyWhiteWhit  Undisclosed.gif WhiteyWhiteWhit is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
it has to be a battle and he has to be defeated, his wand taken from him permanently.
Hmm, Dumbledore was not fighting Malfoy, in fact he did not even defend himself. He let Malfoy beat him much like Harry let the Dark Lord defeat him in the dark woods. And what more, the the Dark Lord had his hands on the Elder Wand when he defeated Harry. Why didn't he gain control?


  #95  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:45 pm
Cashim  Undisclosed.gif Cashim is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by WhiteyWhiteWhit View Post
Hmm, Dumbledore was not fighting Malfoy, in fact he did not even defend himself. He let Malfoy beat him much like Harry let the Dark Lord defeat him in the dark woods. And what more, the the Dark Lord had his hands on the Elder Wand when he defeated Harry. Why didn't he gain control?
correction, Dumbledore didn't let himself be defeated by Malfloy, Malfloy bested him in his weakened state.

as for the Elder wand not choosing Voldemort its master when he used the killing curse on Harry in the forrest.
Harry did not technically die or was defeated, or for that matter his soul survived, while the part of the soul of Voldemort that attached itself to Harry died.
Edit: look at this way, the Avada Kedavara killed Voldemort's soul that was in Harry
the elder wand sensed this, and it did not changed loyalties



Last edited by Cashim; July 24th, 2007 at 3:52 pm.
  #96  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:48 pm
WhiteyWhiteWhit  Undisclosed.gif WhiteyWhiteWhit is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by Cashim View Post
correction, Dumbledore didn't let himself be defeated by Malfloy, Malfloy bested him in his weakened state.

as for the Elder wand not choosing its Voldemort its master when he used the killing curse on Harry in the forrest.
Harry did not technically die, or for that matter his soul survived, while the part of the soul of Voldemort that attached itself to Harry died.
the elder wand sensed this, and it did not changed loyalties
Ahh, but Malfoy did not kill Dumbledore either yet in a less convincing win, he gained control.


  #97  
Old July 24th, 2007, 3:53 pm
Roe  Undisclosed.gif Roe is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by sickoftv View Post
They'd have to defeat Harry, not just take his wand. Though I've reread the scene where Harry takes Malfoy's wand, and I doubt one would call it "defeating him" since it was really Dobby that dropped the chandelier and sprayed him with a face full of glass, harry just took the wands from his hand. Is it anyone's then, since it was a cooperative defeat, or did it become Dobby's? Of course, that would make the line go: Grindewald-Dumbledore-Malfoy-Dobby-Belatrix-Mrs. Weasley. I think that's kind of funny, personally.
You know that works, consistently even.

If you recall Malfoy on the tower in book 6 comments to Dumbledor that Dumbledor had fallen for Malfoy's trap. Dumbledor says in reply, "well, yes, and no."

We now also know Dumbledor knew of Malfoy's plan all along, and even instructed Snape to kill him. Dumbledor put himself purposefully in harms way, knowing Malfoy was after him and knowing he himself was going to die.

In essence, Malfoy never really defeated Dumbledor in any solid sense which you would think would be responsible for transfering an item like an Elder Wand.


  #98  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:14 pm
WhiteyWhiteWhit  Undisclosed.gif WhiteyWhiteWhit is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Yes, well it seems there really is no way to explain why Harry gets the Elder Wand Control using the theoretical wand protocol. The only real way to explain the wands behavior is free will and a desire to be Harry's wand.


  #99  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:26 pm
Cashim  Undisclosed.gif Cashim is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

i think its pretty simple to understand.

the wand chooses a new master whenever its current master is defeated, bested or probably even tricked by any method or whatever state its current master is in


  #100  
Old July 24th, 2007, 4:44 pm
Cashim  Undisclosed.gif Cashim is offline
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Re: Hole in the Plot: Grindelwald never defeated Gregorovitch

i think the AK worked the first time cause instead of killing Harry's soul, it killed the fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry

thats why i think Voldemort passed out.
Voldemort also felt what happened to Ravenclaw's diadem, cause he screamed when it was destroyed

i'm guessing he needs to be near a Horcrux to feel that it is destroyed

but this also complicates things cause i think nothing happened to him when Nagini was killed



Last edited by Cashim; July 24th, 2007 at 5:05 pm.
 
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