The Elder Wand

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

This is not a given at all. Snape's skill as an Occlumens would play no part in a duel with Voldemort.

Duel? Of all people, Snape knew what Voldemort was capable of. Do you really think he would challenge him to a formal duel? Nope. Snape would have used Occlumency to hide his intentions and when the Dark Lord turned his back–Avada Kedavra! Score!

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

We witness a duel between Snape and McGonagall and they were evenly matched. Flitwick's appearance caused him to flee.

Not the way I read it.

DH: The Sacking of Severus Snape Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed. Her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought that Snape must crumple, unconscious, but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance.

In that moment of unbalance, Snape could have cleaned the floor with her, but he didn’t. Flitwick and Sprout show up and all he does is defend himself–he never attacks them. Remember that they think him a betrayer and a murderer, but he still considers them his friends. He had no intention of doing them harm and choose to flee to protect them.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Later on we see Voldemort handling three people at once, two of them extremely competent teachers and one an Auror, with a wand that didn't work properly for him and they were still unable to beat him. In fact, they lost, it wasn't a stalemate

The Elder Wand performed as well as his yew and phoenix wand did–see DH: The Elder Wand. His gripe was that it was no better.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I'd say a straight up duel between Voldemort and Snape with an Elder Wand would most likely end with Snape in a bodybag.

We don’t ever really see Severus in an authentic duel (Lockhart doesn’t count either) so his skills in that area are unknown. But I doubt he would provoke a confrontation. Shoot him in the back would be the best scenario.

Originally Posted by decaye23

Kind of joining in on wolfbrother and meesha's conversation about Lord Voldemort. I will defend Tom Riddle as the greatest wizard ever until I die. I maintain that Snape has absolutely no chance with a straight up duel against Voldemort. Elder wand not required. Speaking of the Elder Wand, it's amazing that the unbeatable wand was beaten everytime it was used..whether by duels, murder or just snatching Draco's wand.

Except–I now believe that the wand never was beaten. This will take a bit more time to sort out–I’ll get back to you all soon.

Originally Posted by decaye23

What wonders? I didn't see anything wonderful about it, except fixing Harry's snapped wand and rebounding back to kill Tom. But back to Dumbledore versus Voldemort...

Remember that Dumbledore’s goal was to tame the wand and to keep people safe from it–not kill with it or boast of it’s powers. DH: King’s Cross.

Originally Posted by decaye23

You would think that with the Elder Wand and Dumbledore's skill, he should have been able to disarm or capture Riddle with that wand. Keep Tom locked up somehow magically for the rest of his life---Azkaban wouldn't work as it wouldn't work with Dumbledore. But then Dumbledore would be free to find Horcruxes without a problem.

But Dumbledore knew Harry was a horcrux and would survive only if Voldemort “killed” him. That’s why he didn’t defeat and capture Riddle.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by decaye23

Kind of joining in on wolfbrother and meesha's conversation about Lord Voldemort. I will defend Tom Riddle as the greatest wizard ever until I die. I maintain that Snape has absolutely no chance with a straight up duel against Voldemort. Elder wand not required.

I think Dumbledore was the greatest - which I will get into more below - but other than that, I agree. I think the top three - in the time frame of the books - would be Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Voldemort. Snape was nowhere near the same level as those three, IMO.

Speaking of the Elder Wand, it's amazing that the unbeatable wand was beaten everytime it was used..whether by duels, murder or just snatching Draco's wand.



What wonders? I didn't see anything wonderful about it, except fixing Harry's snapped wand and rebounding back to kill Tom.

I think that was the signifcance of Voldemort not mastering the wand. It didn't work properly for him so he wouldn't have been able to use it to repair a broken wand as Harry - its true master - did. Even Ollivander wasn't able to repair a wand that had been snapped in two like that so that would be an extraordinary thing. But it would only produce such extraordinary results for its true master - and according to Dumbledore, mastering the wand and being the master of death weren't exactly synonymous. Dumbledore mastered the wand, but always felt that it permitted him to "tame" it and he believed that, because Harry was also the master of death, the Elder Wand would be even more extraordinary for him.

But back to Dumbledore versus Voldemort...

Although I can partially agree that the only wizard alive at the time to have been able to defeat Tom in a proper duel would have been Dumbledore...well, he didn't. Dumbledore, though we didn't know it at the time, was in full possession and master of the Elder Wand dueling Tom at the Ministry. Now, granted it wasn't that long of a fight...and he knew he couldn't kill Tom, but that is what you call uncommon skill and power shown by Tom.

You would think that with the Elder Wand and Dumbledore's skill, he should have been able to disarm or capture Riddle with that wand. Keep Tom locked up somehow magically for the rest of his life---Azkaban wouldn't work as it wouldn't work with Dumbledore. But then DD would be free to find Horcruxes without a problem.

I think the significant point there is that Dumbledore wasn't trying to capture or kill Voldemort at the Ministry. He knew that he couldn't kill him because he had figured out that Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes - those had to be destroyed first. But he didn't want Voldemort to realized that he knew about the Horcruxes so he lied.

Capturing Voldemort wasn't really an option at that point either. Fudge still had the dementors in place at Azkaban and they'd just let Voldemort go the same as they had all those other Death Eaters. Dumbledore knew that Azkaban was not a threat to Voldemort. Between the breakout in OOTP and the mass breakout in DH, it appears that the Ministry completely lost control of Azkaban.

Likewise, I think Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to believe he had the upper hand. Voldemort ultimately resorted to a rather cowardly move by possessing Harry and telling Voldemort to kill Harry in order to kill him. But that backfired - not only because Dumbledore wouldn't have killed Harry - but also because possessing Harry hurt Voldemort. That led to Voldemort blocking the connection between himself and Harry - which was what Dumbledore wanted because Harry had not learned Occlumency and could not block the connection on his own. I think Voldemort played into Dumbledore's hand that night because that made it safer for Dumbledore to give Harry more information without having to worry about Voldemort finding out through the connection he shared with Harry.

My take was that - had Dumbledore put the effort into it - he would have been able to wipe the floor with Voldemort. Elder Wand or not, he was the most powerful wizard in the world.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Duel? Of all people, Snape knew what Voldemort was capable of. Do you really think he would challenge him to a formal duel? Nope. Snape would have used Occlumency to hide his intentions and when the Dark Lord turned his back–Avada Kedavra! Score!

And then Snape gets killed by one or more of the other Death Eaters - Bellatrix most likely. Or she'd torture him into insanity first - she did like to play with her victims. Either way, Snape would be dead. Snape was no match for Bellatrix either, IMO.

Also, Voldemort would not die unless all of his Horcruxes had been destroyed. Since Nagini was the last and not destroyed until the final confrontation, Snape would not have been able to kill Voldemort. That would have just put things back to where they were in GOF - only this time, the Death Eaters would know what to do to restore Voldemort. And then Voldemort would kill Snape for his betrayal - if Bellatrix had not already done so.

Not the way I read it.

In that moment of unbalance, Snape could have cleaned the floor with her, but he didn’t. Flitwick and Sprout show up and all he does is defend himself–he never attacks them. Remember that they think him a betrayer and a murderer, but he still considers them his friends. He had no intention of doing them harm and choose to flee to protect them.

Being thrown off balance didn't stop McGonagall. I don't believe Snape could have truly defeated her - and certainly not two of them with Flitwick rushing in to help. Flitwick was the dueling champion - and he owed Snape for that sneak attack in HBP that was never explained. Not to mention Sprout and Slughorn close behind him. That's why Snape ran, IMO. He realized that he couldn't win.

Of course, what he should have done was surrendered, handed over his wand, and told McGonagall that Dumbledore's portrait had information for her.

The Elder Wand performed as well as his yew and phoenix wand did–see DH: The Elder Wand. His gripe was that it was no better.

I don't think it performed as well as his Yew wand actually. He was able to use it, but it wasn't working properly for him. Just like Harry was able to use the Blackthorn wand, but it didn't work properly. Some spells worked - others did not - and some he had to repeat the spell a few times to get it to work. It was inconsistent.

Except–I now believe that the wand never was beaten. This will take a bit more time to sort out–I’ll get back to you all soon.

The Elder wand had been beaten before. That was stated on page. Dumbledore told Harry in Kings Cross that Grindelwald had the Elder Wand and they dueled. He said "I won the duel" so Dumbledore used his original wand to defeat Grindelwald - who was using the Elder Wand.

We also know that the Elder Wand had been beaten prior to that. Xenophilius told them of several duels in which the wizard using the Elder Wand was beaten and lost it. The Elder Wand was powerful, but not unbeatable - that was the legend, not fact. The history of the Elder Wand demonstrated that it could be beaten in a duel.

[vivjad]

This is actually pretty awesome: http://i.imgur.com/W9Q8h.jpg

I never even thought of that, JK Rowling is an awesome writer!

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Duel? Of all people, Snape knew what Voldemort was capable of. Do you really think he would challenge him to a formal duel? Nope. Snape would have used Occlumency to hide his intentions and when the Dark Lord turned his back–Avada Kedavra! Score!

This could be done with Snape's own wand. For a surprise attack, the Wand would not offer any advantage over Snape's own. Additionally, of all people, Voldemort would be the one least vulnerable to one of these sneak attacks. He trusted no-one (not even his own death eaters) and would have been alert to any assassination attempts.

In that moment of unbalance, Snape could have cleaned the floor with her, but he didn’t. Flitwick and Sprout show up and all he does is defend himself–he never attacks them. Remember that they think him a betrayer and a murderer, but he still considers them his friends. He had no intention of doing them harm and choose to flee to protect them.

Except he didn't. At that moment, he knew that Voldemort was heading to Hogwarts and that Harry was there. His immediate priority was to ensure Harry's safety. In fact, everyone at school was now at risk. Voldemort would kill and torture till he found out who was hiding Harry. So, Voldemort was about to show up and Snape had no clue what the situation was. This is practically a nightmare situation for him. He didn't have time to waste dueling McGonagall. He had to subdue McGonagall as soon as he could.

We don’t ever really see Severus in an authentic duel (Lockhart doesn’t count either) so his skills in that area are unknown. But I doubt he would provoke a confrontation. Shoot him in the back would be the best scenario.

I consider the McGonagall-Snape duel authentic. McGonagall was not holding back and even if Snape was being defensive, if he was better than McGonagall he would have been able to subdue her quickly. Imagine how a similiar duel between McGonagall and Dumbledore would have gone down.

[decaye23]

I think Dumbledore was the greatest - which I will get into more below - but other than that, I agree. I think the top three - in the time frame of the books - would be Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Voldemort. Snape was nowhere near the same level as those three, IMO.

There will always be debate between Voldy, Grind and DD (book time-frame)...I say Tom, you say DD. Impasse. Power and Knowledge they all have. However, I leave Grindelwald out of it purely on known dueling records. Voldemort and DD as far as I know, have never lost a proper duel. Grindelwald did...so he's out of it. The deaths of DD and Voldemort were: DD= planned/Voldemort = the most extraordinary circumstance imaginable. I don't count either of those as a duel lost.

I think that was the signifcance of Voldemort not mastering the wand. It didn't work properly for him so he wouldn't have been able to use it to repair a broken wand as Harry - its true master - did. Even Ollivander wasn't able to repair a wand that had been snapped in two like that so that would be an extraordinary thing. But it would only produce such extraordinary results for its true master - and according to Dumbledore, mastering the wand and being the master of death weren't exactly synonymous. Dumbledore mastered the wand, but always felt that it permitted him to "tame" it and he believed that, because Harry was also the master of death, the Elder Wand would be even more extraordinary for him.

Now I quoted that 'extraordinary' magic line, but actually lost my train of thought. I was at work. What I was trying to say...is that Dumbledore is extraordinary without the elder wand, just like Voldemort. I agree with the 'taming' part. The wand allowed DD to 'tame' it, if you will. What I was saying is that I was trying to remember if I saw anything in canon about the wand, under it's rightful master, do something extraordinary, other than Harry being it's master and fixing his own wand, which is kind of dull actually.

I think the significant point there is that Dumbledore wasn't trying to capture or kill Voldemort at the Ministry. He knew that he couldn't kill him because he had figured out that Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes - those had to be destroyed first. But he didn't want Voldemort to realized that he knew about the Horcruxes so he lied.

Capturing Voldemort wasn't really an option at that point either. Fudge still had the dementors in place at Azkaban and they'd just let Voldemort go the same as they had all those other Death Eaters. Dumbledore knew that Azkaban was not a threat to Voldemort. Between the breakout in OOTP and the mass breakout in DH, it appears that the Ministry completely lost control of Azkaban.

Likewise, I think Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to believe he had the upper hand. Voldemort ultimately resorted to a rather cowardly move by possessing Harry and telling Voldemort to kill Harry in order to kill him. But that backfired - not only because Dumbledore wouldn't have killed Harry - but also because possessing Harry hurt Voldemort. That led to Voldemort blocking the connection between himself and Harry - which was what Dumbledore wanted because Harry had not learned Occlumency and could not block the connection on his own. I think Voldemort played into Dumbledore's hand that night because that made it safer for Dumbledore to give Harry more information without having to worry about Voldemort finding out through the connection he shared with Harry.

My take was that - had Dumbledore put the effort into it - he would have been able to wipe the floor with Voldemort. Elder Wand or not, he was the most powerful wizard in the world.

I have to disagree with you on some of this...capturing Voldemort was an option. Not a realistic one, considering it was Voldemort, but it was an option. Dumbledore isn't the only one to think about here.

OOTP: The Only One He Ever Feared 'It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom,' said Dumbledore calmly. 'The Aurors are on their way--'

The Aurors aren't going to do any deep thinking about Tom, like you are saying DD was doing. Now, with that said, I find it impossible to believe that Dumbledore would prefer to let the greatest dark wizard, if not, greatest wizard of all time to just go free. Free to kill more innocent people? I understand DD not wanting to use the Elder Wand's power, for all the reasons he said in King's Cross. Azkaban isn't a choice, I said that earlier. However, considering who DD's dealing with, if he had the opportunity to capture Voldemort, wandless and then bind him with a spell or place him somewhere and shield it with any spell that should be a million times amplified by the Elder Wand, that he wouldn't do that?

Harry was just lucky he started with all the love stuff from the possession, which I get tired of the love theme. Otherwise, he should have been dead and DD...well, really rather let it happen. All because of some moral choice not to use the Elder Wand's power. But I also want to add, and I'm sure you will agree, that the Elder Wand is no guaranteed victory..i.e. Grindelwald. So, even at the Ministry, had DD thrown away his values and started using that wand's power, Voldemort is the only wizard alive who would have a chance to defeat Dumbledore in a proper duel and being master of the Wand.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

This could be done with Snape's own wand. For a surprise attack, the Wand would not offer any advantage over Snape's own. Additionally, of all people, Voldemort would be the one least vulnerable to one of these sneak attacks. He trusted no-one (not even his own death eaters) and would have been alert to any assassination attempts.

That's a good point. That was something mentioned in the book actually - the whole thing with the prophecy began because Voldemort was so paranoid. He was constantly on the lookout for potential enemies and, when he heard the first part of that prophecy, he reacted and didn't stop to really think it through. Had he ignored it, it never would have come to pass.

I pointed out the loyalty of the Death Eaters above - not all of them, but quite a few were loyal to the point that they would kill anyone who betrayed or killed Voldemort. Bellatrix in particular would have been a huge concern because she was obsessed with Voldemort to the point that - by her own admission - she'd sacrifice her own children if she had any in service to him and consider it an honor to do so. The first time Voldemort disappeared, she led a group to capture Frank and Alice Longbottom and tortured them into insanity because, from what Jo said, somebody told her they would know where to find Voldemort. Imagine what she would do to someone who attempted to kill Voldemort directly.

The Horcruxes were another factor. Dumbledore had arranged it so Nagini would still be alive. He told Snape to tell Harry that he had to die when Voldemort became protective of Nagini - not when Nagini was dead. So, even if you remove the factor of Voldemort killing Snape to master the Elder Wand before trying to kill Harry with it, there is still Nagini to consider. If Snape were alive and Harry did not survive, Voldemort still has one Horcrux left - which Snape did not know anything about. Not only would that be a situation where Voldemort could not be killed because Nagini was a Horcrux, he was also a parselmouth and could communicate with Nagini - she could warn him if anyone attempted to attack him from behind.

Any way you spin it, it was not possible for Snape to kill Voldemort, IMO. The Elder Wand would not be of any use to him for that purpose. The only purpose that would serve would be to make it extremely easy for Voldemort to become master of the Elder Wand.

Except he didn't. At that moment, he knew that Voldemort was heading to Hogwarts and that Harry was there. His immediate priority was to ensure Harry's safety. In fact, everyone at school was now at risk. Voldemort would kill and torture till he found out who was hiding Harry. So, Voldemort was about to show up and Snape had no clue what the situation was. This is practically a nightmare situation for him. He didn't have time to waste dueling McGonagall. He had to subdue McGonagall as soon as he could.



I consider the McGonagall-Snape duel authentic. McGonagall was not holding back and even if Snape was being defensive, if he was better than McGonagall he would have been able to subdue her quickly. Imagine how a similiar duel between McGonagall and Dumbledore would have gone down.

I agree. McGonagall was not holding back - and she was impressive. I was in awe - particularly with how creative her attacks were. Snape had two options there in regards to fulfilling his promise to Dumbledore to tell Harry he had to die. The more logical would have been to surrender - handing over his wand and allowing himself to be restrained would have been more likely to convince McGonagall to go speak with Dumbledore's portrait than trying to intimidate and frighten her was. The other option was to subdue her and take her to the Headmaster's office - Dumbledore's portrait was the best evidence Snape could provide, IMO. Snape chose to fight instead of surrender and I think he realized his mistake pretty quickly - he had underestimated McGonagall. He could not subdue her and the other teachers were coming. So he went for the third option - he gave up and ran for it.

Originally Posted by decaye23

There will always be debate between Voldy, Grind and DD (book time-frame)...I say Tom, you say DD. Impasse. Power and Knowledge they all have. However, I leave Grindelwald out of it purely on known dueling records. Voldemort and DD as far as I know, have never lost a proper duel. Grindelwald did...so he's out of it. The deaths of DD and Voldemort were: DD= planned/Voldemort = the most extraordinary circumstance imaginable. I don't count either of those as a duel lost.

I count Grindelwald because he was the closest to Dumbledore in power. Dumbledore felt they were evenly matched - though he thought he was a shade more skilled at dueling. Dumbledore won that duel, but he was also the only one who could have so I would put Dumbledore first and Grindelwald second because they were so closely matched.

Voldemort would be up there as well, but I do think he was slightly below them - to use Dumbledore's term, a shade less powerful. That was largely due to his own arrogance. Where Dumbledore had to find Grindelwald and defeat him in a duel to stop him - Voldemort defeated himself through his own arrogance by weakening himself with the division of his soul into multiple fragments and creating his own worst enemy. Not just in giving Harry advantages through the connections created by the fragment of his soul and Harry's blood, but also in making Harry so determined to be part of Voldemort's defeat. Voldemort made it personal for Harry so his determination was greater.

Now I quoted that 'extraordinary' magic line, but actually lost my train of thought. I was at work. What I was trying to say...is that Dumbledore is extraordinary without the elder wand, just like Voldemort. I agree with the 'taming' part. The wand allowed DD to 'tame' it, if you will. What I was saying is that I was trying to remember if I saw anything in canon about the wand, under it's rightful master, do something extraordinary, other than Harry being it's master and fixing his own wand, which is kind of dull actually.

Well, I would agree that's not a particularly exciting moment - particularly on the heels of a major battle like that. However, it was extraordinary in that it was something that no one else could do. Ollivander - reputed to be the best wandmaker - told Harry that he could not repair the phoenix wand. Once a wand had been broken to that degree, it could not be repaired. That had been previously demonstrated with Hermione's attempts to repair it failing. Yet Harry is able to use the Elder Wand to do what was believed to be impossible and repaired his phoenix wand. So, no, not a terribly exciting moment, but still extraordinary magic that Harry could not have performed with any other wand.

On a side note, I think Dumbledore had been able to use the Elder Wand for that purpose as well. It seems likely that he repaired Hagrid's wand and disguised it as an umbrella for him.

I have to disagree with you on some of this...capturing Voldemort was an option. Not a realistic one, considering it was Voldemort, but it was an option. Dumbledore isn't the only one to think about here.

Oh, I didn't mean it wasn't something that was considered. I do think Dumbledore considered it. However, I also think he ruled it out because - as you said - it wasn't realistic. The odds were against them being able to hold Voldemort anywhere - if he didn't manage to escape on his own, he had loads of minions who would help him escape. The dementors wouldn't keep him in Azkaban - and Dumbledore had always been against using the dementors as prison guards for that very reason. They were loyal to Voldemort. I guess it would be more accurate to say that was an option that was ruled out.

The Aurors aren't going to do any deep thinking about Tom, like you are saying DD was doing. Now, with that said, I find it impossible to believe that Dumbledore would prefer to let the greatest dark wizard, if not, greatest wizard of all time to just go free. Free to kill more innocent people? I understand DD not wanting to use the Elder Wand's power, for all the reasons he said in King's Cross. Azkaban isn't a choice, I said that earlier. However, considering who DD's dealing with, if he had the opportunity to capture Voldemort, wandless and then bind him with a spell or place him somewhere and shield it with any spell that should be a million times amplified by the Elder Wand, that he wouldn't do that?

The Aurors were no match for Voldemort though. Dumbledore wasn't threatening Voldemort with capture - he was threatening him with exposure. That was the more viable option - and would serve a purpose because Aurors seeing Voldemort would ensure that his return was made public knowledge. It had been easier for Voldemort to rebuild his army that year because Fudge was conveniently ignoring his return - and running a smear campaign against Dumbledore and Harry to prevent people from believing them. The public did not believe there was any danger so the majority were not even taking the most basic precautions to protect themselves.

If you are referring to binding as in binding his powers, that does not appear to have been an option at all. That's why Fudge was so reluctant to dismiss the dementors - prisoners being constantly exposed to them were too depressed to try to do magic. As far as we're shown, they could not bind a wizard's power. However, if you're just referring to restraining Voldemort physically, that would only have been a temporary measure. Tie him up and take him to Azkaban - the dementors set him free after you've gone or the Death Eaters break him out if the dementors have been dismissed. As I said above, that would have been an option Dumbledore ruled out. Dumbledore felt the only way to defeat Voldemort was to destroy his Horcruxes and kill him - putting Voldemort in prison was never part of Dumbledore's plans.

Also, we are shown in DH that Dumbledore was not the kind, benevolent figure Harry had believed him to be. He was manipulative and calculating - Machiavellian. He was willing to sacrifice lives in order to ensure that Voldemort could be killed. My take is that Dumbledore was focused on the end result - the long term gain of killing Voldemort. Voldemort escaping at the Ministry did result in the public being made aware of his return so they would protect themselves. It also ensured that he would use Occlumency to block the connection with Harry because it had hurt him to possess Harry and he realized it was dangerous for Harry to be able to "see" what he was up to. Moreover, it lulled Voldemort into a sense of complacency - he escaped thinking that Dumbledore had lost. And Dumbledore feeds that complacency with Snape passing along the story that Dumbledore had been "shaken" by the duel and was feeling his age.

I think - at that time - Dumbledore intended to destroy all the Horcruxes and kill Voldemort himself. Harry being the exception because Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to kill him when the time was right - and I do think he wanted Harry to at least think he had a fighting chance and be able to give his death meaning. Dying while fighting for something would be better than just being murdered. Of course, all of that changed when Dumbledore was cursed by the ring, but at this point, I think his plan was to lull Voldemort into a sense of complacency by making it appear that he was growing weaker and feeling his age.

Harry was just lucky he started with all the love stuff from the possession, which I get tired of the love theme. Otherwise, he should have been dead and DD...well, really rather let it happen. All because of some moral choice not to use the Elder Wand's power. But I also want to add, and I'm sure you will agree, that the Elder Wand is no guaranteed victory..i.e. Grindelwald. So, even at the Ministry, had DD thrown away his values and started using that wand's power, Voldemort is the only wizard alive who would have a chance to defeat Dumbledore in a proper duel and being master of the Wand.

Harry had to die to destroy that fragment of Voldemort's soul inside him. Not just as a means to make Voldemort mortal so he could be killed, but also for Harry's well being. Dumbledore referred to that soul fragment as "parasitic" - with Voldemort's return it was active and growing stronger. It was starting to corrupt Harry. This was most noticeable in OOTP when Voldemort was not aware of and not even attempting to block the connection between them. Harry's volatile mood swings, irrational anger, lashing out at his friends, feeling a desire to strike out and kill Dumbledore that one time Dumbledore looked him in the eye as the portkey activated - these things made Harry worry that he was the weapon Voldemort was trying to get. He worried that Voldemort might be controlling him somehow. Dumbledore worried that the fragment of Voldemort's soul was growing stronger and corrupting Harry.

If Voldemort had not blocked this connection, how long would it have taken that soul fragment to overcome Harry as the soul fragment in the diary had overcome Ginny? Harry was closer to this one than Ginny had been - she had been using an external object. Harry had a soul fragment inside of him - sharing his thoughts, his hopes and fears, giving him knowledge - like how to speak Parseltongue - and it was already beginning to influence him - terrible, selfish thoughts that made him ashamed when he realized what he was thinking. What would have happened to Harry if Voldemort had not chosen to block their connection - thereby cutting the soul fragment off as well?

I do agree that Harry had an extraordinary amount of luck - one of the flaws in DH, IMO. It was a bit too much. However, Harry also had a greater force of will - he had more to fight for - more to live for - than Voldemort did. That's how Harry defeated Voldemort in the graveyard - which I do consider a true defeat. Sure, the twin cores were a factor, but it still came down to a battle of wills. Each of them trying to force those little beads of light into the others wand - neither knowing exactly what would happen but both being sure that it would not be good for them. Harry won that battle - his will was greater than Voldemort's. He forced those beads of light into Voldemort's wand against Voldemort's will - resulting in the Priori Incantatem effect with those echos choosing to help him. That's not to say that Harry would have stood a chance in a straight out duel - he didn't have the knowledge or experience that Voldemort did. But in a battle of wills - determination - Harry was stronger than Voldemort in that regard.

I also agree that the Elder Wand's history demonstrates that it was not unbeatable. It was very powerful, but it had been beaten in duels before. The most recent being Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald. Having the Elder Wand - even being master of it - would not guarantee victory for anyone. It would still come down to the wizards themselves - their own skills and experience. I don't think Voldemort would have been able to truly defeat Dumbledore - Dumbledore wasn't even giving full effort in OOTP and that duel ended in a draw. However, I would agree that he would be the closest possibility because he was closely matched - though I still think that Voldemort would need a lot of luck to actually defeat Dumbledore with or without the Elder Wand.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by decaye23

The Aurors aren't going to do any deep thinking about Tom, like you are saying DD was doing. Now, with that said, I find it impossible to believe that Dumbledore would prefer to let the greatest dark wizard, if not, greatest wizard of all time to just go free. Free to kill more innocent people? I understand DD not wanting to use the Elder Wand's power, for all the reasons he said in King's Cross. Azkaban isn't a choice, I said that earlier. However, considering who DD's dealing with, if he had the opportunity to capture Voldemort, wandless and then bind him with a spell or place him somewhere and shield it with any spell that should be a million times amplified by the Elder Wand, that he wouldn't do that?

I don't believe that Dumbledore didn't utilize the full power of the Wand because of some moral choice. IMO his comment on taming it was more about not using the Wand for what its normally used for. The Wand attracted power hungry individuals who used it to for their power hungry pursuits. An analogy of sorts is to buy a supercar and rather than using it for racing and impressing girls and generally showing off, you use it for mundane activities like driving to work, picking up the dry cleaning etc.

In OoTP, Dumbledore talks about ensuring Harry's protection when he was a baby. He says that he was sure that even his most powerful, most complex charms wouldn't hold if Voldemort came to full power. In short, he didn't believe that his charms even boosted with the EW would hold against Voldemort.

IMO Voldemort had long since passed that phase where he could be captured and detained by force. Dumbledore was aware of this and aside from making sure that Voldemort didn't kill him or Harry, hoped to delay Voldemort long enough for him to be seen by the Aurors.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by decaye23

The Aurors aren't going to do any deep thinking about Tom, like you are saying DD was doing. Now, with that said, I find it impossible to believe that Dumbledore would prefer to let the greatest dark wizard, if not, greatest wizard of all time to just go free. Free to kill more innocent people? I understand DD not wanting to use the Elder Wand's power, for all the reasons he said in King's Cross. Azkaban isn't a choice, I said that earlier. However, considering who DD's dealing with, if he had the opportunity to capture Voldemort, wandless and then bind him with a spell or place him somewhere and shield it with any spell that should be a million times amplified by the Elder Wand, that he wouldn't do that?

By this point DD knew that Voldemort had reincarnated using Harry’s blood and knew that the only chance Harry had of surviving the death of his horcrux was if Voldemort was the one to kill Harry. That is the reason DD let Voldemort go.

Originally Posted by decaye23

Harry was just lucky he started with all the love stuff from the possession, which I get tired of the love theme. Otherwise, he should have been dead and DD...well, really rather let it happen. All because of some moral choice not to use the Elder Wand's power. But I also want to add, and I'm sure you will agree, that the Elder Wand is no guaranteed victory..i.e. Grindelwald. So, even at the Ministry, had DD thrown away his values and started using that wand's power, Voldemort is the only wizard alive who would have a chance to defeat Dumbledore in a proper duel and being master of the Wand.

I’m doing some research into the Elder Wand and it’s looking like the wand is unbeatable. But there is a caveat: if the Elder Wand senses that the wizard you are fighting is stronger than you are, the wand will betray you. This answers several puzzling questions if you think about it.

[lacerta_lynx]

Some people say: "God works in misterious ways."
I say: "Magic works in misterious ways."
Or that or JK had to have a better editor. I am really confused of how Harry ended up being the master of the Elder Wand. Especially because of the concept of disarming changes the loyalty.
So, here's you and another student. You disarm him, his wand is yours. Putting that concept in a "day to day" perspective, sounds a bit... Weird, if you ask me. Especially because there was a Duel Club once and we don't see students exchanging wands.
That concept above doesn't really go against what Olivander said that the wand choose the wizard, but I tend to understand as the wand doesn't change its opinion, so to speak, because the wizard-wand relation is a very strong one. So just because someone expelliarmused me on, say, the hallway, my wand won't work as it did before...?
I do understand the logic behind of who owns the EW, but I think that doesn't really click with Olivander's explanation. But that's just me.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

Some people say: "God works in misterious ways."
I say: "Magic works in misterious ways."
Or that or JK had to have a better editor. I am really confused of how Harry ended up being the master of the Elder Wand. Especially because of the concept of disarming changes the loyalty.
So, here's you and another student. You disarm him, his wand is yours. Putting that concept in a "day to day" perspective, sounds a bit... Weird, if you ask me. Especially because there was a Duel Club once and we don't see students exchanging wands.
That concept above doesn't really go against what Olivander said that the wand choose the wizard, but I tend to understand as the wand doesn't change its opinion, so to speak, because the wizard-wand relation is a very strong one. So just because someone expelliarmused me on, say, the hallway, my wand won't work as it did before...?
I do understand the logic behind of who owns the EW, but I think that doesn't really click with Olivander's explanation. But that's just me.

Understanding follows from the recognition that the facts we are given in the books about wands can be split into two categories: wands in general, or the Elder Wand specifically.

The things we are told about wands in general is that they choose the wizard. In essence, they decide on their own master through their own process- no wizard can force the will of a wand. We are also told that wands can change allegiance if they are won, but that for most wands, there is a fair bit of allegiance to the master, and so to win a wand, it has to be willing to choose you.

What we are told specifically about the Elder Wand is completely consistent with the above. Where it differs from other wands is simply in the way that it chooses a master. It gives complete allegiance to whomever it deems to be the most powerful wizard, and it evaluates this through defeat, mild or severe. So where other wands may not switch allegiance for something such as a the spells used in the Duelling Club in CoS, the Elder Wand most certainly would.

Here is the definitive quote by JKR on the matter:

Pottercast Interview The Elder Wand is simply the most ruthless of wands in that it will only take into consideration strength. One would expect a certain amount of loyalty from one's wand. So even if you were disarmed while carrying it, even if you lost a fight while carrying it, it has developed an affinity with you that it will not give up easily. If, however, a wand is won, properly won in an adult duel, then a wand may switch allegiance . . . However, the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength. It's completely unsentimental. It will only go where the power is. So if you win, then you've won the wand. You don't need to kill with it.

So, for a normal wand, even if it is won in the most proper of circumstances, there is still a fair chance that it won't be won, and it seems that this would depend a lot on the nature of the winner-to-be. On the other hand, defeating someone in the most subtle of ways will bend the EW to your will.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Here is the definitive quote by JKR on the matter:



So, for a normal wand, even if it is won in the most proper of circumstances, there is still a fair chance that it won't be won, and it seems that this would depend a lot on the nature of the winner-to-be. On the other hand, defeating someone in the most subtle of ways will bend the EW to your will.

This still seems inconsistent, though. JKR's quote:

Pottercast Interview the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength. It's completely unsentimental. It will only go where the power is. So if you win, then you've won the wand.

There's a conflict in this quote:
1) the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength.
2) if you win, then you've won the wand.

Strength, to me, is not just 'winning.' You could win by luck but be no more powerful than the wizard you've defeated, as Draco 'wins' by disarming Dumbledore. Draco got lucky in that he caught Dumbledore off guard, it doesn't mean he was stronger than Dumbledore was in any way. In fact, he wasn't, either in skill, in prestige, in knowledge or in any other way. Draco was clearly the weaker of the two in every single way except surprise. He got the jump on Dumbledore. That's not strength.

To me, it has to be one or the other: Either the wand is loyal to strength and strength alone, in which case it's allegience would never have changed from Dumbledore since Dumbledore, in every way, was 'stronger' than Draco, or the wand changes loyalty by simply 'being won' by whomever does the winning, whether they are strong or not.

[lacerta_lynx]

Oh, and to make it clear: I never watch interviews with JK or go to her website. I found some quotes by chance (and so the prequel) and I completely disregard them. Because then, the novels would never be complete. JK always will have something to add and I follow what I see in the novels. The EW despite being more powerful than a common wand, it is a wand, nevertheless, and its rules should apply to all wands. But it doesn't, and it still seems a bit weird to me, sorry.
And I agree with Goddess_Clio. Winning is not the same as being more powerful, and the explanation doesn't really explain much... What if the loser is the most powerful...? The wand goes to who?
Draco disarmed Dumbledore, but I think Dumbledore is more powerful than Draco.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

This still seems inconsistent, though. JKR's quote:



There's a conflict in this quote:
1) the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength.
2) if you win, then you've won the wand.

Strength, to me, is not just 'winning.'

Indeed, to many of us, strength is more than just winning, but that is irrelevant because none of us is the Elder Wand. JKR is simply saying that to this specific wand, strength is synonymous with winning.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Draco got lucky in that he caught Dumbledore off guard, it doesn't mean he was stronger than Dumbledore was in any way. In fact, he wasn't, either in skill, in prestige, in knowledge or in any other way. Draco was clearly the weaker of the two in every single way except surprise. He got the jump on Dumbledore. That's not strength.

Normally, yes, but when Draco corners Dumbledore, DD has just drunk poisonous water, and is already dying from a previous hex from the ring. I can see the wand viewing Draco as the stronger of the two. I can also see the wand viewing Snape as superior to DD, and not caring about DD's intent.. However, Draco disarmed DD first, so the wand switched loyalty to him.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

This still seems inconsistent, though. JKR's quote:

Pottercast Interviewthe Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength. It's completely unsentimental. It will only go where the power is. So if you win, then you've won the wand.

There's a conflict in this quote:
1) the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength.
2) if you win, then you've won the wand.

Strength, to me, is not just 'winning.' You could win by luck but be no more powerful than the wizard you've defeated, as Draco 'wins' by disarming Dumbledore. Draco got lucky in that he caught Dumbledore off guard, it doesn't mean he was stronger than Dumbledore was in any way. In fact, he wasn't, either in skill, in prestige, in knowledge or in any other way. Draco was clearly the weaker of the two in every single way except surprise. He got the jump on Dumbledore. That's not strength.

To me, it has to be one or the other: Either the wand is loyal to strength and strength alone, in which case it's allegience would never have changed from Dumbledore since Dumbledore, in every way, was 'stronger' than Draco, or the wand changes loyalty by simply 'being won' by whomever does the winning, whether they are strong or not.

But we also have to add one more piece of wandlore to the puzzle: “The wand chooses the wizard.”

If the wand perceives that its criteria for choosing a wizard has been met, then technically, that wizard has “won over” the wand. In other words, it has been persuaded to change masters through it’s own standards. Those standards change from wand to wand. The Elder Wand’s only criteria is its own perception of strength which may be magical or, apparently, physical.

The EW knew DD was dying and was extremely weak when it met Draco. It felt the power of Draco’s spell, liked what it experienced compared to DD and switched allegiance.

[lacerta_lynx]

The EW knew DD was dying and was extremely weak when it met Draco. It felt the power of Draco’s spell, liked what it experienced compared to DD and switched allegiance.

Oh, I didn't think of that... DD was indeed dying. Then it makes sense.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But we also have to add one more piece of wandlore to the puzzle: “The wand chooses the wizard.”

Right, and that was one thing I mentioned, but that by no means is the same as saying that the wand can choose at any time through any method. I mean, I think it is fairly clear that wands choose a master when they are purchased, but from then on must be won in order to be repossessed. It doesn't seem to me like they can just jump from one master to the next without being won.

Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx

Oh, and to make it clear: I never watch interviews with JK or go to her website. I found some quotes by chance (and so the prequel) and I completely disregard them. Because then, the novels would never be complete. JK always will have something to add and I follow what I see in the novels.

Strictly speaking, though, this is true in any case. As long as JKR is still around, she reserves the right to add more books to the series. So I see no reason to differentiate. However, I digress because the books say all that JKR says in that quote at different times. I refer to the quote because it really does a great job of summing everything up.

The EW despite being more powerful than a common wand, it is a wand, nevertheless, and its rules should apply to all wands. But it doesn't, and it still seems a bit weird to me, sorry.

They do apply, that was my whole point! There is no rule which applies to all wands which doesn't apply to the Elder Wand. This is consistently presented. All wands choose their master, and the EW is no different. All wands can be won from their master, and the EW is no different. All wands look for something in their potential new master in order to change allegiance, and the EW is no different. I fail to see where in my explanation I brought up something which doesn't apply to the EW.

The fact is, while all wands follow the above rules, they are all, by nature, different in terms of the criteria which they consider in order to give their allegiance to a new wizard. The way that I would look at it is this (though this is really just a way of thinking about it, not canon):

When a wizard is defeated, their wand becomes, for an instant, nobody's master. At that moment, it can choose either of the two combatants as master. For every wand, the criteria are different, but for the Elder Wand, it is as simple as it gets- whoever won the tussle wins the wand. For other wands, we might expect that it leans toward its previous master due to a degree of loyalty, as well as leaning towards whomever's character it deems itself most suited for, but for the Elder Wand, these factors are not at all taken into account. As Ollivander says "the wand chooses the wizard.... It's not always clear why." For the Elder Wand, however, it is clear.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Right, and that was one thing I mentioned, but that by no means is the same as saying that the wand can choose at any time through any method. I mean, I think it is fairly clear that wands choose a master when they are purchased, but from then on must be won in order to be repossessed. It doesn't seem to me like they can just jump from one master to the next without being won.

I was going to work on this theory a bit more before presenting it, but what the hay--my fellow posters help me more than I can do on my own, so here goes:

According to Ollivander, a conquered wand will "usually" bend its will to its new master. That suggests that some wands might not. There may be some wands that will never leave their original masters no matter what happens to them. Wands seem to have a choice to some degree.

If there are wands that even having their masters conquered won't change their loyalty, can there then be a wand that will simply abandon it's master if it feels that another wizard is stronger? I think so. I think it's called the Elder Wand. And I think that is why this "undefeatable" wand appears to have so many masters that get beaten.

When fighting with this wand, if it senses your opposition is stronger, it will betray you without a moment's hesitation. I think that's why JKR calls it a double-edged sword.

And this explains some instances that to me were previously rather opaque as to meaning. Harry is at Malfoy Manor and trying to keep Voldemort’s interrogation of Grindelwald out of his head:

DH: Malfoy Manor As Harry spoke, his scar burned worse than ever, and for a few seconds he looked down, not upon the wandmaker, but on another man who was just as old, just as thin, but laughing scornfully. "Kill me, then. Voldemort, I welcome death! But my death will not bring you what you seek.... There is so much you do not understand..." .......... "Kill me, then!" demanded the old man. "You will not win, you cannot win! That wand will never, ever be yours–“

By this time Grindelwald knew Dumbledore was dead–Harry later in King’s Cross suggests he lied (a few paragraphs earlier than the quote) to prevent Voldemort from desecrating Dumbledore’s tomb. But there is no way Grindelwald could have known any of Dumbledore’s plans, so why is he so sure that Voldemort could never win the wand?

Because the Elder Wand betrayed Grindelwald in his duel with Dumbledore. Grindelwald had decades confined to Nurmengard to contemplate why that had happened. I think he would come to the conclusion that he was betrayed because the Elder Wand acknowledged that Dumbledore was the stronger wizard. But why was Dumbledore stronger? Love! Of course! What is Dumbledore always saying that Voldemort doesn’t understand? Love! This is what Grindelwald was telling Voldemort that he didn’t understand and why he would never be able to win that wand.

Additionally there is something Dumbledore says in King’s Cross that has always struck me as odd:

DH: King’s Cross "Maybe a man in a million could unite the Hallows, Harry. I was fit only to possess the meanest of them, the least extraordinary. I was fit to own the Elder Wand, and not boast of it, and not to kill with it. I was permitted to tame and use it, because I took it, not for gain, but to save others from it."

(Emphasis mine.)

Dumbledore was “permitted” to tame and use the Elder Wand? Who decided Dumbledore could use this wand? The Elder Wand did! It betrayed Grindelwald for Dumbledore because, all things being equal, it recognized LOVE as the stronger magic. Dumbledore took it to save others from it–he took it out of love! Every time he tells Harry that love is stronger, he does so because he experienced that power first hand.

And this is probably JKR’s most amazing irony–that the wand with the most violent, bloodiest history recognizes love as the greatest power.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I was going to work on this theory a bit more before presenting it, but what the hay--my fellow posters help me more than I can do on my own, so here goes:

According to Ollivander, a conquered wand will "usually" bend its will to its new master. That suggests that some wands might not. There may be some wands that will never leave their original masters no matter what happens to them. Wands seem to have a choice to some degree.

If there are wands that even being conquered won't change their loyalty, can there then be a wand that will simply abandon it's master if it feels that another wizard is stronger? I think so. I think it's called the Elder Wand. And I think that is why this "undefeatable" wand appears to have so many masters that get beaten.

But this is where it falls apart to me. The implication is that the wand switches before the defeat occurs, but that is paradoxical to me because defeat is the only method presented by which the wand measures strength.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But why was Dumbledore stronger? Love! Of course! What is Dumbledore always saying that Voldemort doesn’t understand? Love! This is what Grindelwald was telling Voldemort that he didn’t understand and why he would never be able to win that wand.

But you are forgetting that when Malfoy won the wand from Dumbledore, Dumbledore was still exuding that same love- in fact, he was busily engaged in saving Malfoy out of a type of love, even while Malfoy attempted to attempt to kill him. This doesn't work as an argument for me, therefore, because if you are suggesting that Grindelwald's quote should be taken verbatim, then it is completely disregarding the possibility that Voldemort could have Dumbledore incapacitated, and then take the wand as Malfoy did. Therefore, I find Grindelwald's quote to be motivated by the fact that he knew what Dumbledore was planning to do, perhaps, or that he was simply trying to aggravate Voldemort.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

But this is where it falls apart to me. The implication is that the wand switches before the defeat occurs, but that is paradoxical to me because defeat is the only method presented by which the wand measures strength.

If it's not cut and dry--such as when the thief stole it from the elder brother and then murdered him (though we know know the killing was unnecessary) then when the battle begins, the wand can sense the magic being used. What happens is what precisely occured in Harry's duel with Voldemort. The spells are cast, they meet, the Elder Wand backs off and, literally, in this case, jumps into the hands of the other wizard. Where wizards are more evenly matched, the wand may take more time to choose and the duel is prolonged.