References to WWII

[rotsiepots]

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

How did everyone else feel? Maybe I need to lighten up.

[Kendra]

I don't think it's meant to be taken personally, Rotsie, as a deliberate focus on Germans. I think with Grindelwald, because of the time period, Jo wanted him associated with WWII with his "greater good" ideas and I think Gregorovitch was German to serve plot events.

As for socialism, it was glaringly obvious and slightly uncomfortable, because of the ideas, not the fact it was reminding people of WWII (well that was the case with me). I think Jo was trying to imprint in literature the horror of the ideas, because Hitler was one of the biggest terrorists of the 20th century, and there's no denying it. I don't think she wants people to forget the lessons learnt (I don't mean the event) and by relaying it in a book for children to read, affecting characters they love, it makes them relate to it much easier. A history lesson in a book.

[rotsiepots]

Originally Posted by Virtuousdream

I don't think it's meant to be taken personally, Rotsie, as a deliberate focus on Germans.

Oh, I know, I was being facetious about the "why are the evil ones always GERMAN" point. I'm not that humourless.

I was being serious about the references to National Socialism not sitting very well with me, only because I felt like it trivialised what was a very dark time in European and world history.

[gertiekeddle]

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

I felt like it trivialised what was a very dark time in European and world history.

I felt uncomfortable with it for the very same reason. The topic comes up quite often in literature (or movies) as the final evil, what needs no more explanation. It so can't give consideration to the NS-times speaking of quantity, but also quite often quality of its mentions. Using it again and again does not help the topic from not getting forgotten when it's used for the effect the idea of such an unbelievable cruel time has only.

[Alastor]

I didn't like it either.

[Aunt_Marge]

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

I was being serious about the references to National Socialism not sitting very well with me, only because I felt like it trivialised what was a very dark time in European and world history.

Funny - because I felt the opposite! I felt the references to the Nazism just demonstrated how little society has progressed, and what a long way we have to go before genocide is eradicated. This makes the lessons of the time more powerful, not trivialized, in my opinion.

[LAinSEA]

I agree very much with Aunt Marge. Those of us who are students of history are concerned when we recognize Fascism and elements of it creeping into democratically elected governments.

Jo did mention in one of her interviews that social problems, wars included, relate to one another--feed off one another--from the wizarding world to the muggle world or the other way around. Given Western governments' response to terrorism, I would see her writings as a warning.

[Blossom]

No, I liked it. As JK said she liked creating links between the wizarding and muggleworld, and it's away of drawing us in closer to the wizarding world. I thought it was very cool.

[proxpero]

I agree in such a way that JK Rowling is not really referring to Germans or Socialism or anything, but just to the general NON PROGRESS of the present day. The battles, the deaths of innocent lives, sacrifices, relationships, all these connections are connected from the Potter world to the real world by Rowling.

[TeraBlight]

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

Okay, I must have missed something - which surprises me, being German myself. Where did it say they were German?

[proxpero]

I'd have to reread the book again, but I believe there definitely were references to them being of German descent. Rowling talked a lot about the geography and the surroundings of the Potter world in the last book, with references to Albania and the jail that Grindelwald was held in I believe actually existed in Germany.

[acorns_lamppost]

I don't think that she was trying to call anyone out. However, when I was reading, there were I few times I was reminded of 1984 (War is Peace/Freedom is Slavery/Ignorance is Strength) with the slogan "Magic is Might" and with the Ministry of Magic weeding out those witches and wizards it deemed unfit.

[Fleur du mal]

When I read the scenes in the Ministry, and the mentions in between, I found it really blood-curling. I felt instantly connected to the NS regime, too, and had the vague idea in my head, 'All they've done so far was really just kidding around and not taking it any serious.' As soon as these blunt Nazi parallels appeared, I grasped what Voldemort being in power actually meant. Chasing Harry around trying to kill him, accidentally murdering Cedric, or Sirius in passing - that's one thing. The systematic genocide jumped into the reader's face, and it must have jumped into everybody's face in the world of the book, too. Still the Ministry functioned as ever, many people just played along... I didn't think this was trivialising the Holocaust in any way. I thought it was making the machanisms clear, how easily the terror can be ignored, and also how it is on the other side, facing torture and extinction.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

How did everyone else feel? Maybe I need to lighten up.

I am bothered about that as well. When I read that Gregorovich's (oh what typical German name) wife or who ever that was spoke in German, I thought that we are at Germans = bad again.

Quite a lot of things in the book which had to do with bad persons and places derive had something to do with Germany.
- Grindelwald
- Gregorovich
- that other prison which name I forgot
etc.

[Fleur du mal]

It was called Nurmengard, TENSCHI

[HuffleClaw]

I didn't feel it was referencing the Nazi's in particular but rather ANY oppressive regime (the current bush administration came to mind actually). That said, the events of the Second World War are a pretty big part of the collective consciousness of the people of the UK, so any parallels should be expected.

[Aunt_Marge]

Also, I believe that the name of Grindewald's prison (darn! can't remember what it was called) sounded very much like "Nuremberg," as in the Nuremberg Laws and Trials. That really did strike me as a reference to Nazi Germany.

I don't think she meant to equate Germans with evil. That said, I can understand why Germans are offended - references to eugenics, WWII, racial purity would have sufficed without naming any nationality.
And I speak as the grandchild of four Holocaust survivors.

[Blossom]

Nobody thinks that Germans are bad, just the people in the Nazi party were. There are bad people in any society, and anyway, Dumbledore was going to be in on it too, showing the British can be bad too! He was almost the wizard Mosely.

[Aunt_Marge]

True - most of the racial purists in DH are NOT German.

[PrimalOpus]

I didn't think it was over the top but I did pause when she introduced Nurmengard because it sounded so obviously like Nuremberg. The whole Muggle genocide does seem to take its roots from the Holocaust, but in general I never thought the references were heavyhanded.

I was surprised Grindelwald turned out to be handsome, though. Who'da thunk it?