References to WWII

[smartypants]

"but I think this was done in an incredibly hateful way that benefits no one."

What a strange comment. Should you NOT be hateful towards the crimes that the Nazis commited?

-------

I agree that the idea that Hitler was under the imperius curse is offensive, because it basically frees him from responsability. But that is not an idea that has ANY sort of support in the books. Neither has the idea that they were allied, even though it's not offensive. However, it's illogical. Remember that Hitler was a muggle. Grindelwald would have the idea that Hitler was his to RULE not cooperate with.

The timing is not strange either. The early 20th century was full of ideas of racial superiourity. Grindelwald was affected by it, and embraced the ideas. Dumbledore was intrigued by the ideas, which is easy to be when you are much smarter than everybody else. But he was intelligent enogh to see reason and drop these ideas. Grindelwald wasn't, and didn't, and seems to have tried to use the events of WWII to strengthen his power, and probably planned to take over and subjugate the muggles when they were at their weakest, after the war. But Dumbledore stopped him.

The only think this is hateful against is racism, in all it's forms. Any other ideas, like that this is "anti-german" or anything like that is pure hallucinations.

[PrezLeefun]

I liked that aspect of the books. I dont think it shows German people in a bad light. I think it shows racism and socialism in a bad light..... and I agree that those things are bad.

I thought that the idea that Death Eaters were the Gestapo and the Ministry of Magic like the appeasing European governments was genius. JK was smart to put it in there.

Originally Posted by Chrido

Yes, you´re right. As I´m german, I am very sensitive to all similarities. But I think, JK is far to clever to locate her story all with the Nazi Regime. I don´t want to put the crimes of WWII into perspective, but I think that JK saw the effects of totalitarian regimes altogether. (As you read it I´m very cautious, because the german history is something, for what I always will have a feeling of guilt - what do you think: Is this reasonable for me, as I´m born 1968? We have an old question here...)

As someone who is part Jewish I am going to tell you no. YOU should NOT feel guilty. If YOU dont feel superior to others because of your race or creed, if YOU have not hurt anyone dont feel guilty. Its not your fault. You are not responsible for the sins of your forefathers. Just teach others about the evil's of rasicm and there will not be any fault with you.

[Raethul]

Originally Posted by DruidMorgana

I think it's SUPREMELY important that writers like JKR keep this sort of thing in people's minds. It's all too easy not to think about the more unpleasant aspects of humanity We must never, never forget what happened in Germany, it could happen again so easily. The people in Germany were not bad people, they were poor, they were humiliated and they were desperate and Hitler offered them employment, glory and a better life. Then, once he got elected, he slowly, slowly edged away from the 'liberal' policies he'd advocated, slowly, slowly increased his hold on the reigns of power until, before the German people knew it, he was in total control.

I agree completely, as with Aunt Marge's assessment that there is never a "too often." I know that as an American my opinion may seem a little misplaced as I can't pretend that I or any of my relatives were as affected as others in Europe with the events of WWII, but this reminds me of a occurrence that happened when I was middle school. My seventh grade literature class was doing a section on black authors and their writings for Black History Month, some of which included works that made references or parallels to slavery, though nothing was graphic or excessive (at least in my eyes). One girl's mother asked our teacher to stop teaching these writings because they "made her daughter feel bad." I realize I'm prone to be much more sensitive to this because I grew up in the South, but I can't stand but be slightly insulted when someone says something like this. It's understandable to feel uncomfortable; neither of these subjects are pleasant at all, but by ignoring them, pushing them aside in favor of happier things, they get lost in history and ultimately repeated. I have no qualms with JK making parallels to the events of WWII and I certainly don't think she ever ever intended to point out anything as ludicrous as "all Germans are bad." To me, remembering these events, whether in a history class or through literature, is absolutely necessary.

Edit to add: I would like to echo what PrezLeefun just added: No one who treats all people with respect and equality should EVER feel guilty about what happened in the past.

[2501]

I thought it was good that she had Grindelwald's time coincide with Hitler's, to show that there were parallel things happening in the wizarding world.

Also of particular interest to me was the use of the sign of the Deathly Hallows by the evil wizard, in the same way that Hitler took an ancient and revered symbol (the swastika) and turned it into a symbol of evil. It made me wonder if Jo has studied the history of the swastika pre-1930's.

I don't think the allusion to Hitler trivializes nazism, nor is it a knock on Germans. The connection to Voldemort (who is a modern, English wizard) is meant to show that ideas such as the superiority of "pure blood" have always led to horrors when allowed access to power. I do think in a way Jo is trying to show her young readers that standing by and allowing evil to spread means people you care about will die.

[gertiekeddle]

Nobody said it shows all Germans in a bad light, some (including me) just wondered if it's appropriate to include Nazis as 'the' bad reference.

Gregorovitch: Hi wife speaks German; that's why some assume he's German as well although it's no German name.

[KatieFer]

I dont think she was refer to germany exactly. as we saw it is the wizard world that effects the muggle world so grindlewald was only german to show the link between the two events (WW2 and Grindlewalds rise to power). wehreas the other similarities between what happened in WW2 was just because this war brought so much fear about and JKR needed to show this to the reader

[confutatis]

I personally thought Gregorovitch was probably Russian. I also caught the allusion to the swastika - which was an almost universal 'good luck' sign prior to the 1930s. It will take the Germans a long time to outlive the stigma of WWII, just as the U.S. southerners have not yet outlived the stigma of slavery (house elves?), even though there have been no slaves in the U.S. for six or seven generations. It is a lesson that cannot be forgotten, and shouldn't be avoided just because it makes some people uncomfortable.

[Caralynne]

I was not uncomfortable with it, but I understood the parallel.

I think, actually, that JKR had answered a question prior to the book about Grindelwald and Hitler, and had said something about trouble in the Muggle World usually coinciding with trouble in the Wizarding world (i.e. Grindelwald and Hitler both had their downfall in 1945). So I just assumed that the entire "Wizards are better than Muggles" was intentionally supposed to be similar to the attitudes of people during World War II.

I don't think that it showed Germans in a bad light, and I actually don't think that it showed general socialism in a bad light. I think it showed what happens when power falls into the wrong hands, and when socialism is used in these scenarios. I definitely caught some of the obvious parallels in this message, but I think that the things which happened in DEathly Hallows are inevitable in a war based on power and racism. The government was corrupted; Umbridge actually struck me as the epitome of a Nazi. But I think certain things (the questioning about heritage, for example, or the statue of wizards sitting on the Muggles - both have real-world parallels) are inevitable when you're fighting based on race or prejudice.

I hope that made sense.

[Onyma]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

But she didn't insert bits of the Third Reich into her books! I want to repeat this once more The only valid connection to WWII JKR had to the Potter universe was that Grindelwald had a hand in creating that war. That was the only definite connection.

I don't know how the allusions to the concentration camps, Nuremberg, eugenics, and Hitler escape you, but they are most definitely there to remind us of World War II. I don't know, maybe Rowling thought that throwing in a bunch of comparisons to the Nazis would spare her some tedious work on actual plot and character development.

I have lost a lot of respect for her because of this. I have thought her to be one of the most imaginative writers today. She could have done much better without piggybacking on decades of the tried and true "Nazis are evil" demagogy.

Originally Posted by smartypants

What a strange comment. Should you NOT be hateful towards the crimes that the Nazis commited?

Am I refuting that Nazis, and many other during WWII have committed terrible crimes? No. I simply think dwelling on it is spiteful. In personal life, do we constantly look back on the worst events that had ever happened to us? No, because that is unhealthy and destructive. Why should world history be any different? Yes, it is important to know what happened, learn from our mistakes, blah blah blah, but at the end of the day, constantly dwelling on genocides and exodia and enslavement and other crimes against humanity is only going to generate more hatred.

[confutatis]

Originally Posted by Onyma

I don't know how the allusions to the concentration camps, Nuremberg, eugenics, and Hitler escape you, but they are most definitely there to remind us of World War II. I don't know, maybe Rowling thought that throwing in a bunch of comparisons to the Nazis would spare her some tedious work on actual plot and character development.

I have lost a lot of respect for her because of this. I have thought her to be one of the most imaginative writers today. She could have done much better without piggybacking on decades of the tried and true "Nazis are evil" demagogy.

So how do you write a book that relates to matters that took place in the '30s and '40s and NOT address the events of WWII? Would you say Nazis were just misunderstood? The book is written about events in Europe and takes into consideration European history. The type of events in European history are not unique. Concentration camps, ethnic cleansing, eugenics, mindless cruelty etc. have happened all over the world. She could just as easily have referenced Stalin's Soviet Union, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Idi Amin's Uganda, or any number of other places - so much of recent history has been whitewashed to keep from making anyone uncomfortable.
Further, I think a couple of lessons CAN be learned by continually reminding society of what mankind is capable of - we think we are so far above and past the cruelty and barbarity that has plagued our history. But in fact, that potential is always with us. One of the lessons we must, *must* draw from that dark time in our recent history is that if so rational, modern, educated, industrious and honorable people as the Germans can suffer a period of national insanity, it can happen just about anywhere.

[desertfox]

I dont see any WWII references. The Death Eaters and Voldemort represents all the evil prejudice people in the world; people who hate and look down upon others just because they are different from them, this includes the Nazis, the KKK, the Jihadists, and much much more.

Our perception of what the DEs are based on is caused by our personal experience, but in the end they are the same. You related them to the Nazis because you are German, just as well as someone will relate them to the KKK because they live in the US.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by operakatz

I don't think it's a coincidence that Dumbledore defeated him in 1945, same year the Germans surrendered in WWII.

That's interesting actually - perhaps she was suggesting that wizards were fighting that war the same way muggles were? And that the wizards were actually more pivotal to the war than muggles...

Anyway, I didn't pick up on any anti-german tones in the book. I didn't even realise those names sounded german, I was actually thinking they were closer to russian, like Igor Karkaroff. To be honest, I didn't even pick up on the similarities between the book and the Holocaust either. I was just thinking it makes sense, that it was exactly what Voldemort would do if he had acquired governmental power.

[Aunt_Marge]

Originally Posted by Onyma

My countrymen were also victims of the Holocaust, and yet I do not share your sentiment.

All right. I respect that. I guess everyone feels differently and has different experiences.

Originally Posted by Onyma

Am I refuting that Nazis, and many other during WWII have committed terrible crimes? No. I simply think dwelling on it is spiteful. In personal life, do we constantly look back on the worst events that had ever happened to us? No, because that is unhealthy and destructive.

It all depends HOW we look back on the past.

If we look back and tell ourselves "This is terrible, we will never change, humanity is evil, there is no point in us even thinking we will be different" - that would be unhealthy and destructive. It would depress us into passivity, and we will be doomed to repeat history.

If we looked at the past and told ourselves, "Look at what we are capable of, we have to make sure this never happens, let me look around me and see if I recognize the signs of this happening today, let me make sure I never become like this" - that is encouraging us into activity.

Also, while I respect that you don't share my sentiment that there is no "too often," I'm also not sure why you find "too often" spiteful. If it caused us to hate people, i.e. focusing on the Holocaust leading people to hate Germans - that would be spiteful. But everyone on this thread keeps on reiterating that Jo did not suggest that, and that they don't think that Germans are bad - just Nazis.

[rotsiepots]

Originally Posted by Fleur du mal

I'm sorry if I sounded patronising or something, that really wasn't my intention

Oh no, I was being quite sincere. I've been trying to make this point for the last X number of pages, but all people keep piping up with is "JKR isn't anti-German you know". She's obviously not anti-German. That wasn't my point (as so many people have missed).

By making strong comparisons with WWII JKR gives people the opportunity to think "Maybe Grindelwald and Hitler worked together? Maybe Hitler was under the Imperius Curse? Maybe he wasn't such a bad guy after all". That, to me, is utterly offensive.

At least you get it.

[SKasparRollins]

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

Oh no, I was being quite sincere. I've been trying to make this point for the last X number of pages, but all people keep piping up with is "JKR isn't anti-German you know". She's obviously not anti-German. That wasn't my point (as so many people have missed).

By making strong comparisons with WWII JKR gives people the opportunity to think "Maybe Grindelwald and Hitler worked together? Maybe Hitler was under the Imperius Curse? Maybe he wasn't such a bad guy after all". That, to me, is utterly offensive.

At least you get it.

Ah yes, I see what you mean now. That is utterly offensive, but there is no evidence to suggest it other than the fact Grindelwald was defeated in 1945.

[HallowsBThyName]

Originally Posted by raven_moon09

I didn't feel they were references to WWII but to any evil regime. It reminded me more of 1984. I think it was important to remind people of the horror of those types of governments. Also Gregorovich to me doesn't seem evil. He was just holding the Elder Wand and it was stolen.

No, I think the references were definitely Nazi. In fact, I thought JKR was referring to the Nazis ever since the first time the terms "Mudblood" and "Pureblood" were used. The parallels between those terms and "Aryan" and "Juden" are remarkably blunt.

There are so many more clues, too. To wit:

Nuremburg = Nurmengard
Muggle-born Registry = Yellow mezuzahs bearing the legend "Juden"
Snape and Yaxley raising "their left arms in a kind of salute" (page 2) = "Heil Hitler"
Voldemort was a half-blood and denouncing any who weren't full blood = Hitler was a Jew and a failed artist and denounced Jews and art
Hallows or Horcruxes = Axis vs. Allies
The Order of the Phoenix = The French Resistance and related groups
The arrival of the second group of fighters (centaurs, thestrals, hippogriffs, Hogsmeade residents, etc.) = the Normandy Invasion
Placing Muggle-borns in Azkaban = Concentration camps
Dark Mark = Swastika
Destroying the Horcruxes = breaking the Four-Wheel Enigma code

And I could go on and on...

Originally Posted by resol612

Gestapo's the secret police, Death Eaters fit more of the role of the SS.

I think you have the right of it there. The Gestapo were the police patrols (like the Snatchers) and the SS were the elite (like the Death Eaters).

[chemJohn]

Originally Posted by Aunt_Marge

Funny - because I felt the opposite! I felt the references to the Nazism just demonstrated how little society has progressed, and what a long way we have to go before genocide is eradicated. This makes the lessons of the time more powerful, not trivialized, in my opinion.

Exactly.
While I never really made the connection at all with German's, socialists, or nazis...we really have to admit that Voldemort is quite literally a magical hitler.

Personally, I found Voldemort FAR more similar to Hitler than Grindelwald.. Grindy didn't (at least not apparently) have the same dislike for "half bloods" taht Voldemort had.
He considered himself superior to Muggles, but wasn't out to KILL them, as Voldemort was....collateral damage, Grindy was fine with, but he wasn't out to KILL them and the halfbloods the way Voldemort was...Voldemort was going for Domination AND "Purification"...Grindy was just going for Domination, as I recall it.

I want it made clear that i find ALL these mindsets DISGUSTING...and i didnt' put all the quotes where i should have because i'm eating dinner while I type this....the attitudes of Grindelwald and Voldemort are reprehensible, vile and moronic...and unfortunately, they STILL persist today. in short....I found Voldemort (THOMAS RIDDLE) To be FAR worse than Grindelwald...who, in the end, may have found some remorse.

I'm not oging to say to Lighten up....but....from where I sit....The "German" in the story was vindicated.
Voldemort, on the other hand.....fully evil.

[purplehawk]

I saw, quite simply, well-written passages illustrating the destructiveness of power and racism, of man's inhumanity to his fellow man. I have always associated the death eaters with the American KKK, and its Nazi SS predecessors, and Voldemort as Hitler. I actually liked what she did because her books are a timely reminder of easily civilization could regress into that sort of behavior.

[Pam17]

I can also imagine that Voldemort looked up to Hitler for his abilities in beaurocratic genocide and perhaps took lessons from him.

I highly doubt that Voldemort would ever look up to a *Muggle* for any reason, even if they did share sentiments and attitudes.

I think it's SUPREMELY important that writers like JKR keep this sort of thing in people's minds. It's all too easy not to think about the more unpleasant aspects of humanity We must never, never forget what happened in Germany, it could happen again so easily.

I disagree, whilst works of fiction are of course, platforms from which to learn and grow, it is the job of teachers, parents, governments etc to "keep this sort of thing in people's minds". Infact, the job is less to keep in mind past events than it is to instill in people a proper sense of wrong and right. A lot of people seem to be getting on their high horses in this thread saying that "Nazism should never happen again" which proves my earlier point that Western's generally know nothing about current events that mirror the horrors of WWII Germany. Sorry, I know this is obviously going slightly off topic.

But she didn't insert bits of the Third Reich into her books! I want to repeat this once more The only valid connection to WWII JKR had to the Potter universe was that Grindelwald had a hand in creating that war. That was the only definite connection.

If you choose to read into the books so literally, you will lose a lot of the underlying messages and themes of the story.

I don't know, maybe Rowling thought that throwing in a bunch of comparisons to the Nazis would spare her some tedious work on actual plot and character development.

My point exactly. My early point indicates this also, JKR took the easy way out.

By making strong comparisons with WWII JKR gives people the opportunity to think "Maybe Grindelwald and Hitler worked together? Maybe Hitler was under the Imperius Curse? Maybe he wasn't such a bad guy after all". That, to me, is utterly offensive.

I see your point and yes that would be offensive but I doubt that many readers will look into the parallels with that much depth. Something made quite obvious by the replies in this thread.

[fawnmarie]

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

Maybe it's because I'm German, or maybe it's because I'm utterly humourless when it comes to these sorts of allegories.

I couldn't help but feel that the obvious references to National Socialism were a little bit over done. I felt rather uncomfortable whenever another reference came up. Oh and Grindelwald and Gregorovitch just had to be German, didn't they?

How did everyone else feel? Maybe I need to lighten up.

I'm German too - and it didn't bother me a bit. What's more evil than Nazis? Nobody. They didn't invent it, but they certainly perfected a few techniques.

This sort of "ethnic cleansing for the greater good" has a long and ugly history. Racism is always ugly, whether it's cultural or political. I don't have a problem with her alluding that particular case of it.

As an American, I could also be offended by the allusion of Colonial slavery in regards to house-elves. But I won't be. Because it's ugly and people should see how ugly it is.

Originally Posted by rotsiepots

"For the Greater Good" was carved in the entry way to Nuremgard, the prison that held Grindelwald's opponents, just like "Arbeit Macht Frei" at Auschwitz. Grindelwald had his own concentration camps, it seems.

For me, the references to National Socialism were all too obvious.

When I see the words "National Socialism" - I don't think Nazis. Socialism isn't Nazism. Not sure what is meant by "National Socialism" in Germany.

There were many allusions to Nazism in the book. Yes. I agree. And they were very obvious.