Writing style and structure of DH

[Chupacabra]

it feels like a rough draft was printed instead of the final book

[zanaboo]

Originally Posted by Starrlight

I know that many will disagree with me, but this book really wrecked the series for me.

I think that's the essence of why I feel so disappointed by Deathly Hallows. Who'd want to reread the first six books when there's so little in the seventh to look forward to?

[Conidia]

Originally Posted by Starrlight

There's little to no Harry in this book--it's all flashbacks to Dumbledore, Hallows, Marauders, etc. And let's face it--the Deathly Hallows as objects were totally not needed and the way that they were used made no sense--neither did the blood protection, or anything else about the final denouncement.

I agree with the beginning of your post.

I have some thoughts on the list in the last sentence I quoted though.

The Deathly Hallows were necessary to give Harry a choice. It was new and unexpected, and probably detracted a bit from the plot, since we had little knowledge of the story before. It would have been nice to hear a little bit from another book, like maybe in Book 2 when Harry went to the Burrow and Mrs. Weasley reading to Ginny, or something. Or maybe when Ron saw Harry's cloak, he could have said, "There is a story about these, and others have them, but this one is like none I've ever seen." Then, in a moment when Harry was under his cloak, he could have been hit by a spell, and told Ron about how it didn't do anything to him, and Ron being surprised by the effect.

Anyway, I still think it was necessary that Harry make the choice between the promise of something "fantastic" and doing the more sensible thing and having faith in Dumbledore. Having faith seemed to be a theme in this book.

And then, Harry had to choose to die. Finding and killling the horcruxes was necessary, and Harry had to choose to kill the horcrux within him. Having that distraction of the promise of avoiding death is necessary for him to make his choice. One way promised immortality, and the other, the hard way to begin with, led to certain death.

The blood protection was extremely necessary, but I suppose understanding it depends on the person. I was a little iffy on the fact that Voldy had Harry's blood, which kept Harry from dying completely. It really wasn't discussesd well. But it was definitely necessary to the storyline.

By "final denouncement," do you mean the overthrow of Voldemort? Perhaps you could expound. I had my disappointments in that whole set, but I'm not sure I found anything there unnecessary.

Originally Posted by SKasparRollins

And someone above me commented on the "lack of action"? WHAT? Let's see, we actually see literally every Death Eater trying to kill Harry in the opening as he leaves Privet Drive, capped off by two deaths (in the first 70 pages) and Voldemort himself face-to-face with Harry already (while FLYING, no less), a coup of literally the entire wizarding world, which is immediately followed by a DE ambush in a Muggle cafe (one of my favorite action scenes, actually), and then we have our infamous four-month standstill, but...by the time we reach the sheerly epic Battle of Hogwarts, which itself surpasses all the action scenes in the previous six books, and also the escape from the Malfoys (which featured two major deaths in one chapter again...) What did you expect? I thought JKR did a great job of keeping the action frequent, frenzied and epic while still having time for the character and plot development.

If you're referring to my post, or my post along with other posts, then I will say this:

I never said there was no action. I just think there were a lot of other opportunities for action, better action, and more significance to other books in the series, even amid the action. I like action.

There was a hugely FLAT part, wherein which there is usually a building toward the climax. Instead, we started out with a high, hit some lows (lots of them), had a bump or two, then almost nothing. There was hardly anything significant in the romp in the wilderness (although, as I said, I can imagine reasons for it). I mean, Hermione was reading, but we don't get anything out of that fact. Ron left, and Harry and Hermione did little talking at all, about it, which is okay, but I expected some Hermione-reasoning on some important points.

Before even reading, I was expecting there to be more contact with others throughout the book OR massive action on the horcrux-hunt. That is probably the core of my disappointment (which is small, I might add). When I'm talking about "action," I'm not just talking about fighting and such, but more contributions to the apex of the story.

[Starrlight]

The Hallows made an interesting contrast between Dumbledore and Riddle, I think. But as part of the story of Harry, it's just too much--too complicated and not very well explained. You did a better job than JKR did! It's just a total cheat to have Voldemort unable to actually kill Harry--when was he actually really in danger then? The Elder wand and all that--why add something like that in book 7, for pete's sake? I don't think that it was necessary at all. She could have explored her themes about choice in a clearer way--I don't know what way, I'm just saying that the Hallows didn't work for me.

Harry as the willing sacrifice was just too Narnia for me--when Aslan met his death, and mice came after to chew the cords off, and Lucy and Susan smoothed the foam away from his muzzle, and then have that wild ride when he's brought back to life, waking the creatures turned to stone, the big battle after...well, that has obviously stayed with me for 30 years. Nothing at the end of DH is going to stay with me that long--it seemed nonsensical. Hmmm...perhaps it wasn't Narnia enough!

I'm not explaining myself well, or really answering your question--I'm sorry about that. Add to the silly Hallows the absence of Hogwarts and Snape from most of the book, the fact that no Slytherin student ever chose the side of good in JKR's view, and the poorly written deaths/mourning (Dobby being the only exception), and you get a very poor end to a wonderful series. Frankly, after reading this book I have to wonder why Dumbledore wasn't in Slytherin! He sounded like the perfect candidate! Slytherin shouldn't equal evil, and I think that JKR missed a real opportunity to say something real about it taking all kinds to make this world.

[sapere_aude]

Originally Posted by Dantedanger

yeah i did to be honest....i thought that largge portions of the book read more like a childs book than a work of serious fiction to be honest. thats not to say i didnt enjoy it or love the book, but in terms of literary style it seemed to be a step back from HBP and certainly, POA.

As i said, i enjoyed it, and indeed loved the book, but there were bits of it that struck me as being primarily child orientated.

I didn't like the long terms of no gain, but I disagree in it reading like a children's book. I don't think it's "serious" fiction either.

[Joanna]

Originally Posted by Quidditch Capt.

I've never understood the fascination with the love interests over the years. It is a key element to the books as it is a part of growing up, but this isn't a love story. It only serves the plot as it's interesting and shows maturity, but I think fandom has placed far too much focus on those parts of the story line for years

THANK YOU.

Some fans get so deranged with these ships that they ultimately come to the conclusion that the book is not up to par because Rowling has not assuaged their hunger for silly hook-ups. Fortunately, I have not read fanfiction nor been tempted too so my perception of the book has not changed since I first read it. Harry Potter never was a series on romance. In fact the romance is more of an after-thought and like you said, something to make the books more interesting. Personally, I could do without all those ships such as Harry/Ginny, Snape/Lily (honestly did not see that one coming and was pretty horrified but I understand it was a necessity), Lupin/Tonks etc as the originality of the story is what drew me to the books from the beginning.

[Magical_Me]

Originally Posted by Starrlight

the fact that no Slytherin student ever chose the side of good in JKR's view, and the poorly written deaths/mourning (Dobby being the only exception), and you get a very poor end to a wonderful series. Frankly, after reading this book I have to wonder why Dumbledore wasn't in Slytherin! He sounded like the perfect candidate! Slytherin shouldn't equal evil, and I think that JKR missed a real opportunity to say something real about it taking all kinds to make this world.

You missed the point of the entire book! She was trying to point out that people are far more complex than good/evil, Slytherin/Gryffindor. Everyone makes good choices and bad choices, no matter which house they came from. it's unfair to suggest JK never saw Slytherins making the right decisions. They were a product of their environment - cunning and pure blood were encouraged far more than bravery or loyalty, you can hardly blame them for not jumping at the chance to help fight. That's really a character error - the Sorting Hat's and Dumbledore's/Headmasters, not the author's. She has been making it explicit since Chamber of Secrets that Slytherin does not equal evil. It's only the choices those people have made. Perhaps the Sorting hat senses these before sorting and they become a concentrated bunch. But it's certainly not as black and white as you suggest - at least not explicity.

Interesting that you said Dumbledore should have been in Slytherin. Didn't he make the same assessment about Snape, showing bravery and other traits prized by Gryffindor? The point is, these people can't be boxed into "Loyal, smart, brave and cunning" - obviously some will exhibit all of those traits at some point in their lives.

[Wab]

For all her talents as a storyteller, JKR is not a particularly strong writer.

For all that DH is more readable than Order and Prince for the simple reason that Jo (or one of her editors) heeded the more reasoned critiques that she was way too reliant on adverbs in general text and, most annoyingly, speech attribution.

Where DH really falls down are some incredibly blah! sections (like the Sweet Valley Hogwarts epilogue) and deviations from character most notably how Harry's normally good judgement goes out the window in cases like going off alone with Bathilda Bagshot and breaking the taboo (and there was a bit of creaky deus ex machina there).

[Conidia]

Originally Posted by Joanna

THANK YOU.

Some fans get so deranged with these ships that they ultimately come to the conclusion that the book is not up to par because Rowling has not assuaged their hunger for silly hook-ups. Fortunately, I have not read fanfiction nor been tempted too so my perception of the book has not changed since I first read it. Harry Potter never was a series on romance. In fact the romance is more of an after-thought and like you said, something to make the books more interesting. Personally, I could do without all those ships such as Harry/Ginny, Snape/Lily (honestly did not see that one coming and was pretty horrified but I understand it was a necessity), Lupin/Tonks etc as the originality of the story is what drew me to the books from the beginning.

I think JKR did a great job steering clear of too much romance in these books, with the exception of HBP. I thought some of that was a little out for me, but figured that was just me.

I think the way she handled the romances was good, overall, though, and probably why I didn't bank on my Lily/Snape suspicion. I certainly didn't think they were best friends, but more that Snape's love was totally one-sided, and more of a selfish lust, which is why he slipped in the "Mudblood!" accusation, because, as I was reading it, he also was angry with Lily for not noticing him and, as he might have seen it, feeling sorry for him.

[Starrlight]

And when you choose Slytherin at the age of 11, you could never change your mind about it? The fact that there are no Slytherin heroes (Slughorn is too selfish, and Snape is sort of redeemed, but I wouldn't call him heroic) is what keeps the Harry Potter series from being real, timeless literature. Let's say there are no Slytherin heroes under the age of 50--that very glaring error that I've noticed since about book 4 is what will forever relegate Harry Potter to the "children's fiction" section rather than the "literature" section.

[Zarrot]

I agree that it feel like their should have been another chapter at the end. A chance to see everyone mourning and celebrating, it ended so abrubtly. At times it alos felt like it was written with page count in mind more than story and plot as if she was avoiding it growing to a 1000 pages rather than allowing the chips to fall. There was too much story to tell and too many loose ends to wrap up and it felt like it was forced into a shorter span than it should have been. I really enjoyed the book but...I can't help but feel something was missing.

[Conidia]

Originally Posted by Wab

For all her talents as a storyteller, JKR is not a particularly strong writer.

For all that DH is more readable than Order and Prince for the simple reason that Jo (or one of her editors) heeded the more reasoned critiques that she was way too reliant on adverbs in general text and, most annoyingly, speech attribution.

Where DH really falls down are some incredibly blah! sections (like the Sweet Valley Hogwarts epilogue) and deviations from character most notably how Harry's normally good judgement goes out the window in cases like going off alone with Bathilda Bagshot and breaking the taboo (and there was a bit of creaky deus ex machina there).

I'm going to disagree with your last sentence here--respectfully, of course.

I don't think the Bathilda incident was deux ex machina, at all. It was creepy and a wickedly good trick on JKR's part. However, as to Harry's lack of judgment, he is about 50-50 on that, and he might have figured, "Well, Hermione's just downstairs."

I'm frankly more surprised at Hermione, and wonder why neither picked up on the smell.

[HermyRonnie]

Originally Posted by Magical_Me

You missed the point of the entire book! She was trying to point out that people are far more complex than good/evil, Slytherin/Gryffindor. Everyone makes good choices and bad choices, no matter which house they came from. it's unfair to suggest JK never saw Slytherins making the right decisions. They were a product of their environment - cunning and pure blood were encouraged far more than bravery or loyalty, you can hardly blame them for not jumping at the chance to help fight. That's really a character error - the Sorting Hat's and Dumbledore's/Headmasters, not the author's. She has been making it explicit since Chamber of Secrets that Slytherin does not equal evil. It's only the choices those people have made. Perhaps the Sorting hat senses these before sorting and they become a concentrated bunch. But it's certainly not as black and white as you suggest - at least not explicity.

Interesting that you said Dumbledore should have been in Slytherin. Didn't he make the same assessment about Snape, showing bravery and other traits prized by Gryffindor? The point is, these people can't be boxed into "Loyal, smart, brave and cunning" - obviously some will exhibit all of those traits at some point in their lives.

I understand what you're saying but for me in the end it felt like the book came back full circle with the whole misconception of the houses. I mean, to not have even one student from Slytherin. Even Slughorn was apprehensive about fighting. And then in the epilogue, with Harry's kid being teased about being in Slytherin, it seems all that happened in the series, 19 years later, and still stigma of being put in Slytherin instead of Gryffindor continues.

[rhhgrt]

Some parts were beautifully written, like the scene at the Malfoy Manor, which was so well done that I started shaking, and some parts were unbelievably annoying.
Their were certain points where it seemed like JKR was severely underestimating her readers' intelligence, and felt the need to throw already obvious things into our faces. For example, the WWII/Holocaust parallel: that has been obvious since book 5, and in the Ministry scenes I really felt like it was being shoved down our throats.
Another example: they way Ron takes off, and then the subsequent Horcrux taunting. By now we all get why Ron's insecure, and we don't need it to be thrown in our faces like that. We have understood since book 4 that Ron has a severe inferiority complex.
In those two instances it was like she had no faith in our collective deductive skills. She should have given her readers more credit.
And of course, the fanfic!epilogue. Oy. Enough said

[Starrlight]

And Harry tells the kid, pick Gryffindor, you'll get in, totally negating what he said a sentence or two before--that it wouldn't matter.

I still say that Dumbledore as described would have made a good Slytherin. Slytherin is about a lot more than pure blood--it's about ambition, too.

[SKasparRollins]

Originally Posted by Starrlight

The Hallows made an interesting contrast between Dumbledore and Riddle, I think. But as part of the story of Harry, it's just too much--too complicated and not very well explained. You did a better job than JKR did! It's just a total cheat to have Voldemort unable to actually kill Harry--when was he actually really in danger then? The Elder wand and all that--why add something like that in book 7, for pete's sake? I don't think that it was necessary at all. She could have explored her themes about choice in a clearer way--I don't know what way, I'm just saying that the Hallows didn't work for me.

It's a sad fact to accept, but yes, on paper, Harry just isn't nearly as powerful as Snape, Dumbledore and Voldemort. The Hallows were necessary. Yes, I know this seems a poor justification, it makes it seem as if JKR invented the Hallows because Harry would be otherwise too weak to kill Voldemort, but it all comes down to Harry understanding things that Voldemort doesn't. And would you really have been satisfied with Harry opening the love room at the end, engulfing Voldemort in an inescapable state of remorse, causing him to explode? Because that's what I thought would happen, when Hermione explained all the new details of Horcruxes near the beginning.

Harry as the willing sacrifice was just too Narnia for me--when Aslan met his death, and mice came after to chew the cords off, and Lucy and Susan smoothed the foam away from his muzzle, and then have that wild ride when he's brought back to life...well, that has obviously stayed with me for 30 years. Nothing at the end of DH is going to stay with me that long--it seemed nonsensical.

I have not read the Narnia series, but correct me if I'm wrong, didn't CS Lewis intentionally make that an allusion to Christ? Because the Christian imagery was pretty heavy near the end of the book. And I was able to accept it, even though I am not by any means a Christian person.

I'm not explaining myself well, or really answering your question--I'm sorry about that. Add to the silly Hallows the absence of Hogwarts and Snape from most of the book, the fact that no Slytherin student ever chose the side of good in JKR's view, and the poorly written deaths/mourning (Dobby being the only exception), and you get a very poor end to a wonderful series. Frankly, after reading this book I have to wonder why Dumbledore wasn't in Slytherin! He sounded like the perfect candidate! Slytherin shouldn't equal evil, and I think that JKR missed a real opportunity to say something real about it taking all kinds to make this world.

I actually thought Dobby's death was too drawn out at first. And I, unlike virtually everybody else, did not feel very sad about Dobby, call me heartless. The point of the "poorly written mourning" is that it was intentionally written that way, because we progress from a state of calm but somewhat controlled, breaking warfare in HBP after a Cold War type period in OOTP, to full out, violent, ruthless, hellish, horrifying, total war in DH. I've said it time and time again; that's the reason characters like Hedwig and Colin Creevey had rather pointless, abrupt deaths, they were intentionally made that way to show the hell of war.

You mention how Snape was largely absent until the end. I'll freely admit I was rather impatient that we only saw Snape in the opening chapter and kept impatiently waiting when he would show up. But don't forget that HBP, quite literally, was Snape's book. The question of his loyalties was the most important question facing us in DH (even though I knew he was good because of Lily long before I read it, not everyone is as over-analysing) and of course JKR had to be ambiguous all the way about it, doing her utmost to drop ambiguous clues that could mean he was either good or evil. By the time we reach The Elder Wand and The Prince's Tale, the climax of Snape's story, Snape (in this book alone) has cut off George's ear, been shown to have been guarding the sword of Gryffindor for Voldemort (although if there ever was a DING DING DING moment before The Prince's Tale that Snape was good, it would be when we learned he sent the fake sword to Bellatrix), taken control of Hogwarts in the Headmaster's office, watched a colleague die without the slightest hint of any emotion even while she was pleading for him to save her, etc etc. Not to mention everything he'd done before DH. Do you really think it would have been necessary to include him in more scenes?

As for Slytherin - I will actually defend this. Imagine you're an underage (or even overage) Slytherin student under Voldemort's education. McGonagoll has decreed that everyone either fight Voldemort or evacuate the school. What would you rather do, keeping in mind the Slytherin characteristics - face almost certain death fighting Voldemort's massive army, or look forward to preferential treatment under Voldemort after he takes over Hogwarts?

Just because Snape was sorted into the wrong house doesn't mean everyone else in Slytherin has that ambiguity. Also, remember that Slughorn, who proves himself to be a coward, starts off fighting with the Death Eaters but when the final battle rolls around he is actually duelling Voldemort with Kingsley and McGonagoll. But again, not every student will be as brave as Harry, Ron and Hermione, especially not Slytherins.

Remember Phineas Nigellus' quote about Slytherin in OOTP? Where he said that Slytherins will instinctively act to save their own skin? Yeah.

[jaan]

Originally Posted by creativeamanda

Have any of you read the book the 2nd time around? I had similar feelings at first, but now after reading it another time, I am thinking it was me rushing, not Jo.

Seconded.

Many good points have been made here, but I disagree with the portrayals of JKR as carelessly writing in a style less eloquant than previous books.

Perhaps I give JKR too much credit, but I felt upon reading this that she had intentionally established the tone which is being described as bad writing. The tension in this book is completely tangible and the faster pace (i.e. fewer lengthy and artistic descriptions) shows this. Also, the trio don't have the structure of the Hogwarts school year to depend upon- they're off on their own with no timeframe for their work, and I feel that JKR reflected this masterfully. What a harrowing adventure, and I think her presentation of it was quite intentional and excellent.

[padfootandme]

I disagree. I don't see where there were big parts of the books that were written like a children's book. I did think that is was odd how months went by in mere pages though.

[Starrlight]

JKR made Harry the same kind of sacrifice as Aslan, even if hers wasn't a Christian allegory, but Lewis's denouncement at the end of the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe puts the end of DH to shame. I'm only comparing the writing and plotting, not references to Christianity.

[thewyvern]

I think that there's a different between being "poor written" and not living up to expectations. Some people have said they wanted this or that, and I'm not sure if that constitutes poor writing if the book doesn't come out exactly how you imagined it.

On the whole, however, Deathly Hallows is JKR's best written book IMO. SS and CoS are, for the most part, beach reads. They really are incredibly mediocre when it comes to writing. Actually, this was pretty much the case until HBP.

Yes, I know that JKR isn't the best writer in the world. She is a fantastic story teller, but that's one of the reasons that DH surprised me. I would actually go back and read prose (prose, which, by the way, is the one thing that JKR has almost always been terrible at) because I liked them so much, or the imagines were good. There were issues, yes - using "and" too much (sometimes it worked if when the sentances were supposed to be read fast, but most of the time it just didn't work), and using the term 'spread-eagle' I think three times in the span of 6 chapters. It stuck out.

The best part of the book, or at least, the best written part of the book, was the middle. It really gave JKR a time to work on her prose, and it shows. Most of it is beautifully written, and actually made me really feel the character's frustrations with Dumbledore. Similarly, The Silver Doe, King's Cross, and The Forest Again were all written with the same oomph.

The only parts of the book that I found rushed were the deus-ex-machinas (and no, Crabbe using the Fiendfyre is not one, they had the fang, they could've destroyed the diadem easily): Happening to say "Voldemort" and going to Malfoy's Manor (and actually fantastic chapter), the dragon escape (this one not so much, but still), and Voldemort just happening to put the hat on Neville's head. But even then, in the genre of fantasy, it happens all the time, so I can't really fault Jo.

And many parts of the book were more thematic and metaphorical than anything else that has happened in the series. I was happy about this, because the less action, the better.

I really do think, while not the pinacle of literature, that DH is extremely well written (for a fantasy book). It definitely surprised me.

EDIT: Oh, right, and this was after a second read through where I could slow down and take everything in.