Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Stone > Legilimency Studies

Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #141  
Old May 15th, 2012, 6:35 pm
horcrux4's Avatar
horcrux4  Female.gif horcrux4 is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 4765 days
Location: Sheffield UK
Age: 73
Posts: 2,167
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
I think Harry understood why Kreacher acted the way he did. Also, I don't really hold Kreacher responsible for Sirius' death. You could say he attempted to send Harry to his death but not Sirius. The plot was to send Harry to the DoM not Sirius.
Good point. What Kreacher did was to tell Harry that Sirius wasn't in the house when he actually was, leading Harry to assume Sirius was captive in the Ministry as his "vision" had suggested. So it was Harry's death or capture he was setting up. Whether he would have felt free to set up Sirius' death had that been required of him we can't say as it never happens. I don't think we can really hold Kreacher resonsible for Sirius' death although he was no doubt pleased about it. Sirius had been cast off by the family members Kreacher revered and his subsequent behaviour towards Kreacher wasn't likely to make Kreacher feel any differently about him. It's possible that his apparent pleasure in the death of Sirius included the likelihood of his ownership now passing to Bellatrix, a family member who shared the same values as Mrs Black, which Kreacher had been taught were right. He certainly was furious that his ownership had passed to Harry.

His redemption came about through Harry treating him with compassion and kindness, and it's sad to think that had Sirius felt able to do the same Kreacher might have felt able to be reconciled with him. But there was too much baggage both of them were carrying for that to be a realistic possibility.


__________________
Meet Mickey, my new kitten!
Quote:
"From this time forth we shall be leaving the firm foundation of fact and journeying together through the murky marshes of memory into thickets of wildest guesswork."
Albus Dumbledore, HBP
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #142  
Old May 15th, 2012, 7:25 pm
OldMotherCrow's Avatar
OldMotherCrow  Female.gif OldMotherCrow is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 3702 days
Location: Here. I'm pretty sure of it.
Posts: 1,297
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
I think Harry understood why Kreacher acted the way he did. Also, I don't really hold Kreacher responsible for Sirius' death. You could say he attempted to send Harry to his death but not Sirius. The plot was to send Harry to the DoM not Sirius.
I agree with you that Kreacher was participating in a plot to kill Harry, not Sirius. But I still find him responsible for Sirius's death. Kreacher didn't kill Sirius because he was specifically targeting him out of hate, but he did participate in the plot that led to Sirius's death as a member of the Order of the Pheonix while Sirius was trying to thwart the plan and save the lives of children, including Harry. I think Kreacher is responsible for any deaths that results from his action, not just the one death intended.

The only thing I consider mitigating is the influence of Slytherin's locket. Kreacher was alone with it for many years, with it probably preying on his mind like it did with the Trio when they had it. Perhaps after Mundungus stole it Kreacher had a chance to un-crazy-fy a bit.


__________________
".... You've chosen your way, I've chosen mine."
I love Lily because she chooses a path to match her convictions, and chooses to live her life fighting for what is right. It is our choices that show who we truly are.

"UNTIL THE VERY END"
-- JK Rowling to Harry Potter fans at the beginning of Deathly Hallows, and James Potter to his son at the end of Deathly Hallows.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old May 19th, 2012, 8:15 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 4741 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

I still feel that JKR went on a bit of a redemption binge in the final book and that Kreacher just got caught up in that. I never did come around to feeling any like or forgiveness for him at all. I think the writing of his character made that difficult unless one was willing to move with the fast sway of him moving from crooked criminal to kindhearted chef. To the end of the book I expected him to double cross Harry and friends - in ways I wish he would have. The evolution of his character was quite unbelievable to me. On the other hand, his fiesty meanness was something one could really grasp and it gave the character 'character' if you know what I mean.


__________________
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old May 19th, 2012, 10:33 am
willfitz's Avatar
willfitz  Male.gif willfitz is offline
I gave String Theory to my Cat...
 
Joined: 3589 days
Location: Victoria, BC
Age: 27
Posts: 3,476
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I still feel that JKR went on a bit of a redemption binge in the final book and that Kreacher just got caught up in that. I never did come around to feeling any like or forgiveness for him at all. I think the writing of his character made that difficult unless one was willing to move with the fast sway of him moving from crooked criminal to kindhearted chef.
In what way do you mean 'criminal?' In many ways, a house elf's motives and actions are really hard to evaluate in HP, in my opinion, simply because it's hard to separate their personal motivations from the motivations instilled in them by their masters.

Remember that Kreacher's sudden transformation was brought about by reconciling Harry's side of the fight with Master Regulus'. Once that was out of the way, the two motivations merged, and there was no reason for any resistance to linger. I think that that explains the suddenness of it all.


__________________


"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress."

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
Joseph Joubert

"...He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death..." -Madalyn Murray
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old June 14th, 2012, 6:06 pm
Verena  Undisclosed.gif Verena is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 2393 days
Posts: 231
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Dumbledore says: “I warned Sirius when we adopted twelve Grimmauld Place as our headquarters that Kreacher must be treated with kindness and respect. I also told him that Kreacher could be dangerous to us.” (Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix – chapter 37 – “The lost prophecy”)
Who is dangerous can not be good. I am completely and totally agree with wickedwickedboy with what he wrote about Kreacher here and in other threads (“Harry and Kreacher”, “Sirius Black: Character Analysis”).



Last edited by Verena; June 14th, 2012 at 6:08 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old June 14th, 2012, 6:19 pm
willfitz's Avatar
willfitz  Male.gif willfitz is offline
I gave String Theory to my Cat...
 
Joined: 3589 days
Location: Victoria, BC
Age: 27
Posts: 3,476
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verena View Post
Who is dangerous can not be good.
Not sure what you mean by this. There are plenty of characters who live dangerously and still manage to be good people (take Sirius for example).


__________________


"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress."

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
Joseph Joubert

"...He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death..." -Madalyn Murray
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old June 14th, 2012, 8:40 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 2629 days
Location: The pirate ship Revenge
Age: 33
Posts: 1,853
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verena View Post
Who is dangerous can not be good.
Dumbledore is dangerous. He is a powerful wizard in his own right but also threatens Fudge as the popular choice for Minister of Magic. If he crumbled under his own resolve to resist his natural tempations he could take over the wizarding world and become a dictator working toward "the Greater Good" plan that he and Grindlewald devised as teenagers.

Moody is dangerous. He was trained as an Auror and fights on the side of "good" but that doesn't mean that he doesn't also know just as much about the dark arts as Snape or Voldemort. If something changed and caused his loyalty to sway he could be very dangerous.

Snape is dangerous. He is a spy for both sides, a double agent. If at any point he decided to cement his loyalty to Voldemort he could be extremely dangerous to Dumbledore. As it is, he's most dangerous to Voldemort, the bad guy, because he leaks information to Dumbledore. On top of that, he is an accomplished Occlumens, a talented and powerful wizard in his own right and he's motivated in his cause.

Hermione is dangerous. Her mental faculties and her ability to learn quickly and make well reasoned arguments that can sway other people's minds make her a dangerous person to anyone not on the "same side" as her.

Shall I go on?

The ability to be dangerous does not define how good or bad one is.

From Dumbledore's own mouth, "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."


__________________
"I could have been in politics 'cause I've always been a big spender."
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old June 15th, 2012, 12:37 am
joebthegreat  Male.gif joebthegreat is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2369 days
Location: Utah
Age: 28
Posts: 21
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I still feel that JKR went on a bit of a redemption binge in the final book and that Kreacher just got caught up in that. I never did come around to feeling any like or forgiveness for him at all. I think the writing of his character made that difficult unless one was willing to move with the fast sway of him moving from crooked criminal to kindhearted chef. To the end of the book I expected him to double cross Harry and friends - in ways I wish he would have. The evolution of his character was quite unbelievable to me. On the other hand, his feisty meanness was something one could really grasp and it gave the character 'character' if you know what I mean.
That's the theme of the story though. Redemption is the whole point. No matter how many mistakes, bad decisions, or outright disgusting acts a person has made, they aren't beyond redemption. If anything, Kreacher hammers this point home just as strong as Snape does.

I get the feeling that, had Harry treated Kreacher the way fans in this thread are demanding he had been treated, that Harry would have had even more enemies in the final battle. Being good doesn't always mean ruthlessly fighting everyone who is "bad". Sometimes being good means understanding, forgiving, and moving on.

Nobody deserves to be treated the way Kreacher was treated. It's amazing enough that he was willing to listen to Harry at all, let alone fight for him in the final battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio
The ability to be dangerous does not define how good or bad one is.
The willingness to be dangerous does. *mystical hand wave*


__________________
"When you're calling someone a fruit, you're calling them tasty."

"First be good, then be great."
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old September 27th, 2012, 5:04 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
Seventh Year
 
Joined: 2629 days
Location: The pirate ship Revenge
Age: 33
Posts: 1,853
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verena View Post
I've never been in agreement that Kreacher has feelings as acute as a humans, because he has never felt remorse for what he did (to be the cause of Sirius’s death) and he never felt sorry for Sirius.
The fact is, though, many humans cause the deaths of others and feel no remorse for it. People who commit murder or who conspire to murder someone (willing their death but not actually being the one to pull the trigger) often feel justified in their actions. I suspect Kreacher, if he went to Bellatrix solely to bring about Sirius's death, felt justified in doing so due to the way he was treated by Sirius.

As for Kreacher feeling sorry for Sirius... why should he be sorry for him? Sirius may have been falsely accused of a crime and been wrongly imprisoned for 13 years but Kreacher has been a slave his whole life; he's never known anything except enslavement to the Black family. Sirius has at least been his own man, been in charge of his own life and hasn't been shackled to a life of servitude. Kreacher was most likely born into slavery to the Blacks, probably never gets time off, if he has family he either never gets to see them or they've all died, he has been forced to live in isolation in Grimmauld Place because of his enslavement and when his master comes home he is treated badly... I feel way worse for Kreacher than I do for Sirius.


__________________
"I could have been in politics 'cause I've always been a big spender."
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old September 27th, 2012, 6:11 pm
Verena  Undisclosed.gif Verena is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 2393 days
Posts: 231
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

But Kreacher was always treated kindly by members of Black family, so I don’t think that he has lived a life so horrible that, moreover, is precisely what the house-elves want. The house-elves of Hogwarts thought that Dobby was crazy and Winky was desperate when his master freed her, because this is worse than death for her. And then Sirius what he did? He told Kreacher to stop to insulting all the people he met. Is it a valid reason to desire and to cause the death of someone and to be justified for this?



Last edited by Verena; September 27th, 2012 at 6:23 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #151  
Old September 27th, 2012, 8:25 pm
GrimeldaDursley  Female.gif GrimeldaDursley is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 2844 days
Age: 60
Posts: 260
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

It seems to me Kreacher was in a very difficult position after the fateful visit to the cave. Not only were his attempts to destroy the locket futile, he had been ordered by Regulus to say nothing. Supposing Mrs. Black had asked Kreacher had he seen Regulus or had any idea what had happened to him? Suppose she had ordered Kreacher to tell her if he had any idea of where Regulus could be? Whose authority would have precedence then, Regulus' or a senior family member's?

Apparently she must never have asked. I am sure that when Kreacher told his story, he would have mentioned if he had to lie to the Blacks.


__________________
"Magic is everywhere, open not only your eyes, you must also open your heart and just look, it's there, it's been there all along!"--me

I'm a Hufflepuff in a Slytherin World!


snape lives imho
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old October 4th, 2012, 9:17 pm
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 4880 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verena View Post
But Kreacher was always treated kindly by members of Black family, so I don’t think that he has lived a life so horrible that, moreover, is precisely what the house-elves want.
You are thinking of how Blacks (other than Sirius) treated Kreacher deliberately. However, what Regulus did to him (unintentionally) did cause Kreacher to live a life that I, anyway, would have to characterize as "horrible". Consider what Kreacher told Harry about himself in DH:

DH, "Kreacher's Tale""Kreacher tried everything, everything he knew, but nothing, nothing would work...Kreacher punished himself, he tried again, he punished himself, he tried again. Kreacher failed to obey orders, Kreacher could not destroy the locket! And his Mistress was mad with grief, because Master Regulus had disappeared, and Kreacher could not tell her what had happened, no, because Master Regulus had f-f-forbidden him to tell any of the f-f-family what happened in the c-cave...."

Kreacher began to sob so hard that there were no more coherent words.


The quote above reveals things were bad for Kreacher (and Kreacher was certainly not lying to his master...). He was living with a person he loved, who was going mad with grief but he was not allowed to tell her anything, which probably contributed to her untimely death. And he was forced to torture himself over and over again. Sirius did not know all this, but he also did not bother to discover it.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old October 4th, 2012, 11:44 pm
cool_chick_div  Undisclosed.gif cool_chick_div is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 2291 days
Posts: 159
Re: Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

I do not hold anything against Kreacher. As a house-elf he wanted to be around people who treated him well and that was Bellatrix and Narcissa. He doesn't exactly see things the same way humans do. However, I don't blame Sirius for not liking Kreacher. Sirius did not get along with his family and by extension Kreacher. Kreacher himself wasn't exactly a nice elf like Dobby. He was quite horrid. It is hard being nice to someone who is horrid to you. Sirius went to Azkaban and hated being in that house. I didn't expect him to be like Hermione and be nice to Kreacher while Kreacher insulted everyone else.


Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Stone > Legilimency Studies

Bookmarks

Tags
character analysis, kreacher


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:39 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.