The Greater Good

[persian85033]

I searched, and it surprised me to find that no one had started a thread dedicated to just the Greater Good yet. Or at least, none that I found.

Anyway, the Greater Good. That's what Dumbledore wanted, wasn't it? What he and even Harry were fighting for. But, I realized, what IS the Greater Good. See, during the battle at Hogwarts, and that we heard Voldemort speaking, it just...well, see, I suppose in the Death Eaters' own way, they are also working for the Greater Good, in their eyes, you know. I'm not saying, it IS, but really, even in history, how many crimes, how much violence has been done just for this, people claiming it is all for the greater good. But is it? What do you think?

[Matt54]

Its true. So many of the terrible things that have happened throughout history are because the people who cause them think they are working for "the greater good". Dumbledore really knew what he was doing. No matter what happened in his past, I still think that Dumbledore made up for it because he was so wise and helped to set the path for Harry, with the help of Ron and Hermione, to destory Voldemort. Dumbledore truly was working for "The Greater Good".

[persian85033]

That's why I wonder if he could really see into the future. He seemed to guess so many things right, for one. Maybe he knew what was for the greater good, after all. Not Voldemort, certainly. Voldemort was just plain stupid, and terrified, really, I think.

Dumbledore, though, made me think of psychohistory. I wonder if he had that.lol

[8m57w6]

Truthfully, no matter how you look at it, there is no such thing as "the Greater Good". I say this because I have my opinion of what doing something for the greater good might be, yet there is no doubt someone out there somewhere who is completely against me. No matter what, even if the majority of people, even if it's 99.9% that think what's going on is for the greater good, there is still always that .1% that is against it, because they have their own vision of the greater good. Just like there is on such thing as perfect, because everyone's views and ideas on perfect are different' there is no such thing really as the greater good.

Harry thought that what he was doing was for the greater good, as to the majority of HP fans. But Voldemort was completely against him. I'm not saying what Voldemort did, and that the ideas he had were or are justifiable in society in any way, but he truly believed that what he was doing was the right thing to do. And who is to say which of them is right? Sure most people believe that Harry was completly in the right, myself being one of them, but Voldemort did have his supporters as well, just proving that there is no way to define what is truly "for the Greater Good".

[DoraDukes]

I look at the Greater Good like this...Ok, I know it's a Star Trek reference, but...

The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few or the one. Kirk wanted to save Spock, if he did he would have risked not only his life but that of the crew. Spock had to die. Didn't matter what Kirk felt or what Spock felt. He had to die or the whole crew would perish.

It's like a Captain whose ship is going down. You have a few crew members below, the ship is filling fast. If you close the water tight doors, you save the remainder of your crew and by them time to get off. If you don't you will loose more lives than you will save. It's not a pleasant choice to make but it is for the "greater good". You have to close those doors or you will all die.

There is a "Greater Good"- sure each side has their own view. That .1 %- sorry, they are not majority and when choices such as life and death are at stake, it is the "Greater Good" that prevails. Sure, maybe the 99.9 might have it wrong. But, if I am above deck and the ship is filling with water...I sure as heck hope the Capt closes those water tight doors for the "Greater Good".

I for one though would not like to have to make that decision.

[espada]

Dumbledore knew what he was doing, he was working to save the world, he wasnt selfish in the way that he would only save people he know or are close to. I think that Dumbledore would have wanted to save Harry only at one point, but Harry himself had accepted that decision anyway, which means that Harry approves of the Greater Good plan also.

[notsure08]

Sometimes the greater good isn't as important as the smaller good ie family

[hermionefille]

I think the comcept of the "greater good" is often changed by our experiences. Dumbledore took a while to refocus his idea of the greater good. He was angry that some muggles had hurt his sister so badly, and he thought "well, if everyone is knowledgable of magic, she wouldn't be like that". Nazi germany thought "we need to blame someone for our problems". Neither is justafiable (sp?), but it is understandable.
Dumbledore had to be hurt again by the loss of his sister to be able to step back from his experiences and realize that what he wanted wasn't really so great at all.

[Helena12]

I think the fact that both sides worked toward the "greater good" shows how a goal can be twisted to fit the purposes of the individual. It serves to juxtapose Harry and Voldemort even more, for while they both say they are striving for the ultimate benefit of others, Voldemort's interpretation is utterly selfish while Harry's is completely selfless. Maybe JKR was trying to show that any argument can be twisted to fit its advocates, and people must be careful to decipher underlying meanings before they pledge undying support to a dangerous cause.

[Wright1771]

DoraDukes, I see you are going 'where no man, (on this page) has gone before!' As to Dumbledore knowing 'the future'.....maybe he had the only Time Turner left in existance?

[Clareious]

I think that there's a difference between working for 'the greater good' as in the good of all people, and using the words 'the greater good' to justify wrongdoings, and I think this is the difference between Dumbledore as an adult and as a teenager.
Did anyone else notice the reference to 'the greater good' in Elphias Doge's tribute to Dumbledore? It gave me a little shiver up my spine the second time I read the book.

[rosita]

Originally Posted by Matt54

Its true. So many of the terrible things that have happened throughout history are because the people who cause them think they are working for "the greater good". Dumbledore really knew what he was doing. No matter what happened in his past, I still think that Dumbledore made up for it because he was so wise and helped to set the path for Harry, with the help of Ron and Hermione, to destory Voldemort. Dumbledore truly was working for "The Greater Good".

I agree with you,Dumbledore seemed to understand at last what "the greater good" really ment.
It didn`t mean wizards and witches should rule the world,it meant freedom and happiness for every human being.

[Markerlight]

Where do you draw the line for the "Greater Good"; is 80% vs 20% still the greater good? How about 60% vs 40%? The Greater Good is fine until you're no longer part of it. And just who decides what ultimately is for the greater good? This is why I have such a problem with Dumbledore he appoints himself to the position and everyone dances to his tune of the "Greater Good". But thats another thread.

[NRHP]

Originally Posted by Markerlight

Where do you draw the line for the "Greater Good"; is 80% vs 20% still the greater good? How about 60% vs 40%? The Greater Good is fine until you're no longer part of it. And just who decides what ultimately is for the greater good? This is why I have such a problem with Dumbledore he appoints himself to the position and everyone dances to his tune of the "Greater Good". But thats another thread.

You are absolutely correct with that. "Greater Good" is quite a nebulous term. IMO, about the only thing you can be sure of: Never believe someone who claims to know exactly what is the "Greater Good" is.

Dumbledore in his later years when fighting against Voldemort did not fall into this trap. Especially in OotP and HBP he openly admits making mistakes and going along with guesses. He simply tried to make the best choices with the information available to him, and that's the best you can ask for.

[Dumbledoreswand]

DD's version of the greater good was neccessary. It was indeed for the good of human kind. He was not working for himself to futher his own powers.

Voldemort and the Death Eaters were not working at all for a greater good. They were working for Voldemorts selfishness/satisfaction/personal power/personal gain. The Death Eaters were working on his side for either their own personal gain, but more so because they were afraid of being on the wrong side of Voldemort.

I think in a post DH world, people who even question DDs methods would be frowned upon. He did the best he could, when no one else was courageous enough to take up the mantle of leading the anti-Voldemort campaign. I know DD hated having to risk so much across the board. But were it not for him, Voldemort would have killed...... so much more.

[wizardswheezes]

Originally Posted by Dumbledoreswand

DD's version of the greater good was neccessary. It was indeed for the good of human kind. He was not working for himself to futher his own powers.

Voldemort and the Death Eaters were not working at all for a greater good. They were working for Voldemorts selfishness/satisfaction/personal power/personal gain. The Death Eaters were working on his side for either their own personal gain, but more so because they were afraid of being on the wrong side of Voldemort.

I think in a post DH world, people who even question DDs methods would be frowned upon. He did the best he could, when no one else was courageous enough to take up the mantle of leading the anti-Voldemort campaign. I know DD hated having to risk so much across the board. But were it not for him, Voldemort would have killed...... so much more.

True. And by dealing with the moral complexities, calculations and risks himself, Dumbledore is also a protector of Harry's soul. Harry remains pure, whole and undamaged while Dumbledore tackles the difficult but necessary task of working for the greater good (and takes the guilt upon himself when his decisions place others at risk).

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Helena12

I think the fact that both sides worked toward the "greater good" shows how a goal can be twisted to fit the purposes of the individual. It serves to juxtapose Harry and Voldemort even more, for while they both say they are striving for the ultimate benefit of others, Voldemort's interpretation is utterly selfish while Harry's is completely selfless. Maybe JKR was trying to show that any argument can be twisted to fit its advocates, and people must be careful to decipher underlying meanings before they pledge undying support to a dangerous cause.

Very well put! Voldemort's "greater good" was motivated by selfishness and pride in himself. As was DD's "greater good" when he was younger and influenced by Grindelwald. It was about them having power over others.

I think DD changed his views (obviously) when he realized he couldn't be in a position of power. He could have been Minister of Magic but declined that position for the true "greater good". As he tells Harry in King's Cross; the best leaders are not the ones that seek leadership but the ones who have leadership thrust upon them and lead well.

[Dumbledoreswand]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Very well put! Voldemort's "greater good" was motivated by selfishness and pride in himself. As was DD's "greater good" when he was younger and influenced by Grindelwald. It was about them having power over others.

I think DD changed his views (obviously) when he realized he couldn't be in a position of power. He could have been Minister of Magic but declined that position for the true "greater good". As he tells Harry in King's Cross; the best leaders are not the ones that seek leadership but the ones who have leadership thrust upon them and lead well.

I agree with most of this. But what I do not agree on is, comparing DD's initial view of the 'greater good' and Voldemorts view of the 'greater good'. Yes DD/Grindel at that stage wanted power. But DD's belief was that it would have benefited others as well, eg wizardkind. He believed that what he was doing was for the good of wizards and not just for the good of himself. Whereas Voldemort did not have a theme of greater good at all. There is no greater good in his desires. There is no percentage of 80/20 90/10. With Voldemort it is ALL motivated by selfish reasons. He does not care or love, something DD did even when he was searching for power in his youth.

It was indeed lucky that DD was a man of moral fibre; if he had chosen the Dark Path in his youth. If he had stooped to the level of Voldemort and created horcruxes and used dark magic, I would venture to say he would be signifcantly more formidable/unbeatable opponent than Voldemort. Why? Because he would have all Voldemorts power, allied to an even more intelligent brain, greater wisdom, amazing knowledge of all forms of magic and a brilliant insight into humanity.

[cupsoftea]

Originally Posted by Dumbledoreswand

I agree with most of this. But what I do not agree on is, comparing DD's initial view of the 'greater good' and Voldemorts view of the 'greater good'. Yes DD/Grindel at that stage wanted power. But DD's belief was that it would have benefited others as well, eg wizardkind. He believed that what he was doing was for the good of wizards and not just for the good of himself. Whereas Voldemort did not have a theme of greater good at all. There is no greater good in his desires. There is no percentage of 80/20 90/10. With Voldemort it is ALL motivated by selfish reasons. He does not care or love, something DD did even when he was searching for power in his youth.

.

But you can compare them because they are essentially the same. Voldemort truely believed he was working for the greater good of wizard kind. You have to believe that in. Sure he was also a homocidal maniac but thats what makes working for 'the greater good' so dangerous. Because you become truely committed to the idea that you have to do this because its for the greater good, its a poisonous thought.

Take suicide bombers, terrorists, they in their minds are working and killing for the greater good. Same with George Bush, he went into Iraq for the greater good.

Im not trying to start up a terrorist/Iraq debate I merely cite them as examples of how the phrase the greater good is so dangerous because it can have no limits, everything can be justified for it.

I really took a dislike to Dumbledore in DH because of it I hated seeing what was the good great man corrupted by those thoughts. But as Dumbledoreswand said at least he was good enough to stop before he went too far.

[Dumbledoreswand]

Originally Posted by cupsoftea

But you can compare them because they are essentially the same. Voldemort truely believed he was working for the greater good of wizard kind. You have to believe that in. Sure he was also a homocidal maniac but thats what makes working for 'the greater good' so dangerous. Because you become truely committed to the idea that you have to do this because its for the greater good, its a poisonous thought.

Take suicide bombers, terrorists, they in their minds are working and killing for the greater good. Same with George Bush, he went into Iraq for the greater good.

Im not trying to start up a terrorist/Iraq debate I merely cite them as examples of how the phrase the greater good is so dangerous because it can have no limits, everything can be justified for it.

I really took a dislike to Dumbledore in DH because of it I hated seeing what was the good great man corrupted by those thoughts. But as Dumbledoreswand said at least he was good enough to stop before he went too far.

NO, I completely disagree. I do not see anything in the entire series that shows Voldemort was working for the greater good of wizardkind. Where does he even consider this, where does he even care for anything other than himself? All I have seen from Voldemort was that he intended the rest of wizard to be scared of him hence, using the name Voldemort(read CoS). All he wanted was people to fear/respect him; he had no care for his Death Eaters. He wanted to kill others to gain immortality for himself. He hardly cared for the ideologies of the Death Eaters; he was more interested in his own gain. He realised that supporting their views of pure blood, etc; he would gain more followers to his side, but that was not his main aim. His main aim was getting revenge on Harry. Voldemorts greater good was himself; which really is not a greater good at all; thus I do not think any of your examples hold true, because in those cases, the offenders are more likely to do what they do for the belief of helping their own kind.

''Voldemort truely believed he was working for the greater good of wizard kind. You have to believe that in.'' So this statement does not hold any water with me.