The Fidelius charm - how it works and where it can be used

[nano]

Did anyone else realize, that the explanation about the fidelius charm, that Jo gave on her site doesnt really fit, with DH???

DD died and all, that knew of the location of Grimmauld Place were suddenly the new secret keepers - didint she explain that the secret dies with its keeper?

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

That was Jo's exact answer to the question of how the FC works

The way it was explained in Dh doesnt seem to be safe to me - if it were that easy, then you could capture the secret keepr - feed him Veriataserum - get the secret keeper to tel you the secret, kill him then spread the word ... it just doesnt make sense to me.

And I still dont really understand how Hagrid could pick up Harry from Godrics Hollow if the secret hadnt been lifted. If it had - no problem Bathilda saw what had happened and told DD but if it hadnt - how did they find the house? It was the house the secret was on, not the potters, other wise I would have thought the secret was no longer a secret after their death, but James used the invisibility cloak to roam around, meaning the place had the secret on it not the people.

nano

[NorthStar]

I couldn't find any othere thread about this, if I've missed one then I apologise!


I thought there was a bit of inconsistency in the Fidelius Charm and what happens if a Secret Keeper dies. On JK Rowling's website, in the FAQ section there was a question on what happens to a secret when the secret keeper dies. JK's answer was that the secret remains at the exact status as it was when the secret-keeper dies, that the people he/she has already told still know the secret but nobody else. She goes on to say that even the subjects of the secret couldn't divulge the information. I took that to mean that people who had been told but were not secret keepers themselves would still not be able to tell the secret even after the original secret-keepers death.

In the book, we are told that as Dumbledore is dead and he was the original secret-keeper for the Order's headquarters, everyone who he had told was now a secret keeper and could divulge the information either willingly or under torture.

Is it an inconsistency or me just misunderstanding the answer on the website?

[Aliena]

I think the answer on JKR's website is intentionally incomplete. By saying "the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else", I think she means that, for example, No. 12 Grimmauld Place would not become visible to everyone just because Dumbledore died. She did not actually say that no one else could reveal the secret after the Secret-Keeper's death, her example involved a Secret-Keeper who was still alive.

And I still dont really understand how Hagrid could pick up Harry from Godrics Hollow if the secret hadnt been lifted. If it had - no problem Bathilda saw what had happened and told DD but if it hadnt - how did they find the house? It was the house the secret was on, not the potters, other wise I would have thought the secret was no longer a secret after their death, but James used the invisibility cloak to roam around, meaning the place had the secret on it not the people.

I think it was "the location of James and Lily Potter" that was the secret; not the house itself for all eternity, and not James' and Lily' existence (in which case the invisibility cloak would not be needed) - just the fact that they lived in that particular house. Once they no longer lived, the secret was lifted, and the wizarding world could see the house. (I'm assuming there were general anti-Muggle charms on the house, or the ruins would have been cleared long ago!) Hagrid finding Harry was never problematic for me - it was Sirius finding him that was puzzling, because Sirius did not know that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper, and so could not have been told the secret by him.

[Defeats]

Well, it doesn't completely correspond with the argument here, but I noticed another thing.. Snape never told the Death Eaters the location of the house, since none entered...

So, either we could have guessed Snape may have been "good" in the beginning of the book, or we can somewhat surmise that perhaps JK explained the Fidelius Charm in book 7... I'm sure Voldemort would have coerced Snape into revealing the whereabouts of the OoTP HQ if he felt the charm was broken. Its a mysery.

[rnorwood]

I thought that this was a very clever wording of JKR's. She is super sneaky that lady!

For Example,

Dumbledore, when alive, is the only person that can tell people where #12 is. So let's say he told 20 people where it was.

When he died, those 20 people are now the Secret Keepers. They can now tell someone else where #12 is.

If 20 people know something and can freely tell anyone else about, it's not really very secret any more, is it?

So, really, the secret has 'died' in that it is no longer a secret.


I also have thought that James and Lily's Fidelius Charm protected where they were (wherever that would be) and once they died, the secret no longer applied. If the secret 'died' when they died, then people who had been to the house before the Fidelius charm applied to Lily and James would remember where it was again, and someone could tell Hagrid where it was, or perhaps Hagrid already knew, knowing he did know Lily and James and guessing that he could have done errands for Dumbledore in the past, either of those giving him reason to know where Lily and James lived.

[lumos88]

Apologies if this is the wrong place but I have a related query on the Fidelius Charm...

When Harry and Hermoine was escaping Nagini at Bathilda's cottage, Harry had a flashback to the night Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow and killed his parents... LV was able to observe James, Lily and Potter through the window of the house.

My query is how this can happen as they would have been hidden.

Have you assumed that LV has already been told where the Potters were hiding and therefore able to see James playing with Harry before entering the cottage and AK'd them?

[tiggergirl0325]

Originally Posted by Defeats

Well, it doesn't completely correspond with the argument here, but I noticed another thing.. Snape never told the Death Eaters the location of the house, since none entered...

So, either we could have guessed Snape may have been "good" in the beginning of the book, or we can somewhat surmise that perhaps JK explained the Fidelius Charm in book 7... I'm sure Voldemort would have coerced Snape into revealing the whereabouts of the OoTP HQ if he felt the charm was broken. Its a mysery.

I think that we were to assume that the charms the Order put on Grimmauld Place were what kept him from telling them. Since we don't know the timeline of when he showed up at the house, it was easy to assume that he went there before he was in contact with any other death eaters and, after that point, was unable to tell them. ( I would assume the "tongue tying" charm alos prevented him from telling them by simply writing it down, pantomiming, interpretive dance, etc).

The fact that wasn't the case wasn't as important as what the reader is led to assume.

Originally Posted by lumos88

Apologies if this is the wrong place but I have a related query on the Fidelius Charm...

When Harry and Hermoine was escaping Nagini at Bathilda's cottage, Harry had a flashback to the night Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow and killed his parents... LV was able to observe James, Lily and Potter through the window of the house.

My query is how this can happen as they would have been hidden.

Have you assumed that LV has already been told where the Potters were hiding and therefore able to see James playing with Harry before entering the cottage and AK'd them?

OH, we DEFINITELY assume that. We don't see anywhere in the flashback that Wormtail was there, so Voldemort had already been told the secret by the secret keeper and the charm no longer applied to Volemort.

[rnorwood]

Originally Posted by lumos88

Have you assumed that LV has already been told where the Potters were hiding and therefore able to see James playing with Harry before entering the cottage and AK'd them?

Yes, I think that is the case.

As I think the Fidelius applies to L&J's whereabouts, it wouldn't have mattered where they were, LV would have been able to see them.

Even if the Fidelius only applied to the Cottage, I still assumed that LV was told where they were before he went there that night. Given his behaviour in DH ("Only call me when you have the boy!" etc) he would only have bothered going there if he knew he was going to get them.

I am also assuming that there would have perhaps been some prior preparation needed to make a Horcrux, so if LV was intending to make a Horcrux after the Potter's deaths (as suggested in HBP) he probably had to prepare before hand, so would have wanted to know for sure he was going to get them before going there.

[Urania]

I wondered this as well, but came to the conclusion that either a) Jo made a mistake (doubt it, but it is possible) or b) that the order members made the wrong conclusion. It seems that (in PoA) the fidelius charm isn't widely known (Madam Rosmertha didn't know it at least), perhaps they came to the wrong conclusion. It seems unlikely (to me anyway) that if the keeper died, anyone who knew the secret would be able to tell.
As to why Hagrid (and any other witch og wizard for that matter) could see Godrics Hollow, well it's my belief - and so it has been for a long time, that Lily herself cast the charm. If it was someone besides Lily, James or Wormtail who had cast the charm, they too would have known that Sirius was not secret keeper.
It make sense to me, in PS Ollivander tells Harry that Lily's wand was good for charms, but all we know about Lily's abilities in school is that she's good at potions - why then mention the charms part? If it was not a clue that she herself cast the charm.
That would explain why the charm lifted when she died.

[jkmonkey28]

Well I feel better knowing I am not alone in being confused over this. I think I understand a bit better from peoples responses on here but still if I could ask JKR one question it would be to explain this to me in great detail so I feel a bit less like Crabbe and Goyle on this subject.

[nano]

Originally Posted by Aliena

Hagrid finding Harry was never problematic for me - it was Sirius finding him that was puzzling, because Sirius did not know that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper, and so could not have been told the secret by him.

Excuse me, but you must have missed something completely!!!

Sirius was supposed to be the secret keeper - he talked James & Lily into having Wormtail at the last minute. He was the only one who knew that wormtail was the secret keeper.

My probem with Hagrid & DD knowing where the house was, if the secret hadnt lifted is how did they know the secret without knowing who the secret keeper was.

Originally Posted by rnorwood

I also have thought that James and Lily's Fidelius Charm protected where they were (wherever that would be) and once they died, the secret no longer applied.

Yes but then they wouldnt have been bound to the house - they wouldnt have been stuck there - James wouldnt have needed the cloak to roam around and they could have gone elsewhere and still would ahve been safe

Originally Posted by lumos88

Apologies if this is the wrong place but I have a related query on the Fidelius Charm...

When Harry and Hermoine was escaping Nagini at Bathilda's cottage, Harry had a flashback to the night Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow and killed his parents... LV was able to observe James, Lily and Potter through the window of the house.

My query is how this can happen as they would have been hidden.

Have you assumed that LV has already been told where the Potters were hiding and therefore able to see James playing with Harry before entering the cottage and AK'd them?

Of course LV already knew - the potters had been betrayed by Wormtail - he TOLD LV the location - so of course LV could see them through the window

Originally Posted by Urania

I wondered this as well, but came to the conclusion that either a) Jo made a mistake (doubt it, but it is possible) or b) that the order members made the wrong conclusion. It seems that (in PoA) the fidelius charm isn't widely known (Madam Rosmertha didn't know it at least), perhaps they came to the wrong conclusion.

That doesnt imply that Rosmerta didnt know the FC - what was knew to her, was that LV was actually going after the potters specifically, and that they had gone into hiding using the FC because of it.

Originally Posted by Urania

It seems unlikely (to me anyway) that if the keeper died, anyone who knew the secret would be able to tell.
As to why Hagrid (and any other witch og wizard for that matter) could see Godrics Hollow, well it's my belief - and so it has been for a long time, that Lily herself cast the charm. If it was someone besides Lily, James or Wormtail who had cast the charm, they too would have known that Sirius was not secret keeper.
It make sense to me, in PS Ollivander tells Harry that Lily's wand was good for charms, but all we know about Lily's abilities in school is that she's good at potions - why then mention the charms part? If it was not a clue that she herself cast the charm.
That would explain why the charm lifted when she died.

But that also unstables the FC, then the FC-Caster would always have to go into hiding too, as otherwise the caster could be killed and the secret revealed - I assume other charms lift, when the caster dies (bodybounding spell on the tower cast by DD) but for the FC to lift at death of the caster is a very high security risk if an outsider casts the charm.


I absolutely love the books and think it is very cleverly written with the front stories covering up a plot running through the whole series, but I cant help feeling that there is an inconsistency somewhere in the explanation of the Fidelius charm - either in the books or on her website.

nano

[espada]

You cant just catch the secret keeper, cuz first of all, the secret keeper keeps the information of his whereabouts, the whereabouts of the information he was supposed to protect, and his own identity as the secret keeper. Even if you did find the secret keeper and force down Veritaserum, I would think that the secret, which is enclosed within a "single, living soul" would not be able to be extracted unless of course the secret keeper is truely willing to divulge that secret. Veritaserum forces a person to be subdued and tell the truth, but their sub-concious is still intact, meaning they do not want to share the truth, but they are forced to.

Regarding Hagrid picking up Harry, the secret that James was protecting was probably their whereabouts, but not the whereabouts of the house itself, remember that it was mentioned that Voldemort could look through the Potter's windows and not know they were there? This implied that Voldemort could see the house, but it would not show whether if the Potter's actually occupied that house.

Dumbledore told the secret to the Order, since the secret is part of the charm, the charm has spread to whomever the secret was told to, its not the secret itself that matters, its the mechanism of the charm and what was contained inside the charm.

[nano]

Originally Posted by espada

You cant just catch the secret keeper, cuz first of all, the secret keeper keeps the information of his whereabouts, the whereabouts of the information he was supposed to protect, and his own identity as the secret keeper. Even if you did find the secret keeper and force down Veritaserum, I would think that the secret, which is enclosed within a "single, living soul" would not be able to be extracted unless of course the secret keeper is truely willing to divulge that secret. Veritaserum forces a person to be subdued and tell the truth, but their sub-concious is still intact, meaning they do not want to share the truth, but they are forced to. Regarding Hagrid picking up Harry, the secret that James was protecting

" ... the secret that James was protecting ... " wormtail was the secret keeper - not James!!!

Originally Posted by espada

was probably their whereabouts, but not the whereabouts of the house itself, remember that it was mentioned that Voldemort could look through the Potter's windows and not know they were there? This implied that Voldemort could see the house, but it would not show whether if the Potter's actually occupied that house.

Dumbledore told the secret to the Order, since the secret is part of the charm, the charm has spread to whomever the secret was told to, its not the secret itself that matters, its the mechanism of the charm and what was contained inside the charm.

But then why didnt Sirius stay the secret keeper in the first place? I was under the impression, they swapped because, everyone would have thought it obvious for Sirius to be the Secret keeper and so he expected to be hunted down - if there was no way of extracting the secret from him why the swap?

nano

[ChibiHermione]

How about this for a Fidelius problem that comes up in DH?

How does Dobby get to Bill and Fleur's? House elves may be able to apparate when others can't, but Bill and Fleur's is supposed to be protected by the Fidelius Charm. Now, come on.. If you can use a house elf to get around Fidelius, that means that the charm is pretty much useless.
Why didn't Voldemort or his hundreds of Death Eaters think to grab one of their house elves after Trelawney's prophecy, and say, "Take me to the Potter residence in Godric's Hollow!" Or even later, when they're staking out 12 Grimmauld Place? Dark wizards are not (always) stupid; they must know some tricks like this house elf loophole.
It just doesn't really make any sense that a house elf can apparate to a secret location

[espada]

Concerning the swap, Sirius felt that since he was more worthy of a Secret Keeper to Voldemort, Sirius thought that Voldemort would have surely come after him, Sirius did not want to risk the chance of Voldemort knowing where the Potters remotely were, so he probably swapped with Wormtail so Voldemort would go after Sirius instead, because Wormtail seemed to be an unlikely candidate as a Secret Keeper. Alas, Voldemort did not fall for it, and Wormtail, out of cowardice and fear, revealed the secret.

[vampiricduck]

I think that her explanation was quite godo actually. She said that the secret would remain the same as it was at the precise moment of the person's death. Therefore, because Dumbledore had shared the secret with the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore's death resulted in all those people being the secret keeper, a next generation if you will. Everyone knew that Snape would pass information regarding Grimmauld Place to the death eaters, so the place was useless.

Originally Posted by nano

And I still dont really understand how Hagrid could pick up Harry from Godrics Hollow if the secret hadnt been lifted. If it had - no problem Bathilda saw what had happened and told DD but if it hadnt - how did they find the house? It was the house the secret was on, not the potters, other wise I would have thought the secret was no longer a secret after their death, but James used the invisibility cloak to roam around, meaning the place had the secret on it not the people.

nano

It's maybe possible that Sirius, after learning the secret and being the Secret Keeper, told Dumbledore. Or perhaps Pettigrew. It may have been part of the plan. Dumbledore as Secret Keeper wouldn't have worked because he may have been hunting, and being hunted by, Lord Voldemort at that time.

We know that he did meet James and see the Cloak, to take it and examine it. What better place than in the house at Godric's Hollow? Dumbledore must have gotten the secret for visiting rights, to make sure everything was okay. He told Hagrid, who went to get Harry that night.

It's possible.

[MBuehner]

A bit off topic- but i find it fascinating that James Potter didnt choose DD as the secret keeper. Was he expressing the same sort of doubts about DDs manipulations that Harry went through?

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Maybe the Fidilus Charm can differ, it is an immensly complex charm so it may differ. Possibly Hagrid already knew about the Harry's house. Dumbledore being Secret Keeper of the Order. He may have had it be different because he knew he would die and the Order would still have to have their headquarters.

[Weasleytwin]

I was pretty upset when I read that part. Unless Jo changed her mind, she intentionally misled us. It really wouldn't have hurt to have told us that everyone becomes the Secret Keepers. I don't think that would have given anything away.

It still doesn't explain how everyone is able to find the house at Godric's Hollow before Wormtail's death, though.

Originally Posted by MBuehner

A bit off topic- but i find it fascinating that James Potter didnt choose DD as the secret keeper. Was he expressing the same sort of doubts about DDs manipulations that Harry went through?

I think Lily may have answered this in her letter to Sirius. Bathilda Bagshot had been coming over and telling Lily and James all kinds of stories about Dumbledore's friendship with Grindelwald. I think that's probably why James thought twice about trusting Dumbledore.

[Urania]

Originally Posted by nano

That doesnt imply that Rosmerta didnt know the FC - what was knew to her, was that LV was actually going after the potters specifically, and that they had gone into hiding using the FC because of it.

Well I didn't read it like that...

Fudge: "...Well ofcause, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told then that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm."
"How does that work?" said Madam Rosmerta, breathless with interest. Professor Flitwick cleared his throat.
"An immensely complex spell..."

It seemed to me like she didn't know the spell.

Originally Posted by nano

But that also unstables the FC, then the FC-Caster would always have to go into hiding too, as otherwise the caster could be killed and the secret revealed - I assume other charms lift, when the caster dies (bodybounding spell on the tower cast by DD) but for the FC to lift at death of the caster is a very high security risk if an outsider casts the charm.

Well, the caster must be in danger no matter what, since he/she will be able to tell who's secret keeper (though not the secret - I am aware of that).
I find it hard to believe that the charm was worded to protect only Lily and James. And if it was worded to protect Harry aswell (which make much more sense since he was the one targed) the charm shouldprotect the house for as long as he lives and/or is in danger of Voldemort...