The Fidelius charm - how it works and where it can be used

[gred&forge4ever]

Originally Posted by Aliena

for me - it was Sirius finding him that was puzzling, because Sirius did not know that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper, and so could not have been told the secret by him.

Lily invited Sirius to visit, so I would assume he knew where they lived

[muggleborn1]

Originally Posted by Lady_yui

I think the enchantment was not lifted when someone dies.Wasn`T it mentioned in the DH?I think it was hermione and harry talking when they were at Godric`S hallow about not being able to build a new house because of the FC. This question really kept bugging me even before the DH was released because how did Harry,Hermione and Ron knew the place?Maybe they only knew the village but the saw the ruins of the house when they got there ryt?I kept re-reading J.K`s answer to this but it doesn`T fits.

Harry though, was in the house, protected by the FC to begin with. He would have "known" the secret, though he is too young to realize it. The location of the house was not hidden from HIM... so when Harry & Hermione enter GH, Harry would have been able to see the house, regardless of whether it remained protected by the FC or not.

As to Harry & Hermione's discussion, she suggested that perhaps the house could not be rebuilt because it was destroyed by dark magic... much the same way one's body cannot be repaired if it has been damaged by dark magic.

[ronjalina]

Originally Posted by Defeats

Well, it doesn't completely correspond with the argument here, but I noticed another thing.. Snape never told the Death Eaters the location of the house, since none entered...
So, either we could have guessed Snape may have been "good" in the beginning of the book, or we can somewhat surmise that perhaps JK explained the Fidelius Charm in book 7... I'm sure Voldemort would have coerced Snape into revealing the whereabouts of the OoTP HQ if he felt the charm was broken. Its a mysery.

I think he was bound by the 'tounge-tie' charm Moody cast over GP #12.

Originally Posted by Aliena

I think it was "the location of James and Lily Potter" that was the secret; not the house itself for all eternity, and not James' and Lily' existence (in which case the invisibility cloak would not be needed) - just the fact that they lived in that particular house. Once they no longer lived, the secret was lifted, and the wizarding world could see the house. (I'm assuming there were general anti-Muggle charms on the house, or the ruins would have been cleared long ago!) Hagrid finding Harry was never problematic for me - it was Sirius finding him that was puzzling, because Sirius did not know that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper, and so could not have been told the secret by him.

Sirius did know Wormtail was the SK, since he had suggested that in the first place. I think the secret was the location of the Potter family (including Harry) and it broke through what happend when LV´s AK rebounded on him. There was some really powerful magic at work at that time.

Originally Posted by ChibiHermione

How about this for a Fidelius problem that comes up in DH?

How does Dobby get to Bill and Fleur's? House elves may be able to apparate when others can't, but Bill and Fleur's is supposed to be protected by the Fidelius Charm. Now, come on.. If you can use a house elf to get around Fidelius, that means that the charm is pretty much useless.
Why didn't Voldemort or his hundreds of Death Eaters think to grab one of their house elves after Trelawney's prophecy, and say, "Take me to the Potter residence in Godric's Hollow!" Or even later, when they're staking out 12 Grimmauld Place? Dark wizards are not (always) stupid; they must know some tricks like this house elf loophole.
It just doesn't really make any sense that a house elf can apparate to a secret location

That was what really bugged me. The only explanation is, that the FC has been cast after Harry and Co. had apparated there from Malfoy Manor. If the FC had already been active, no one of them should technically have been able to apparate there, not even Ron, since IIRC the reason to cast the FC was the DEs finding out that Ron was with Harry (instead of lying at the Burrow with spattergroit). And that was after Ron was at Shell Cottage. Bill would have not had opportunity to tell Ron. And I don´t think people who know of something, keep being in that knowledge after a FC has been cast. I will have a close look as to the timeline while I re-read that part. The best explanation at the moment is really, the FC was cast after they all appeared at Shell Cottage.

Originally Posted by Urania

I may be way off track here, but as I understood it they didn't put the Fidelius Charm on their house (or the Burrow, og Muriels (sp.?) place) untill after Harry and the others had appered.
They were only really in danger once it was official that a Weasly was fighting alongside with Harry...
And wasn't Bill secret keeper??

Exactly. That is the best explanation.

Originally Posted by Hermie

What I don't understand is how Bathilda came to visit the Potters while they were in hiding if Wormtail did not tell her the secret! We know from Lily's letter to Sirius (DH p.180) that both Wormtail and Bathilda came to visit the Potters while they were under the Fidelius Charm since James did not have his cloak at that point and had to remain in hiding--Dumbledore had taken the cloak a few days before their deaths (DH p.714). If she knew Peter Pettigrew was the secret-keeper then Sirius would not have been tried for their murders. According to Jo, Wormtail must have told her since even Lily and James could not have told the secret to her either. Wormtail was the single living soul in which the secret was kept. Was Bathilda that far gone at that point?

This all boils down to the timeline again. I am not sure, but IIRC, the FC charm was cast only one week prior to the Potter´s death. They were in hiding in GH for longer, during that time Bathilda would have been able to visit them.

[xxemmaxx]

Originally Posted by Aliena

Hagrid finding Harry was never problematic for me - it was Sirius finding him that was puzzling, because Sirius did not know that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper, and so could not have been told the secret by him.

of course sirius knew wormtail was secret keeper- he suggested it to the potters!

[IgoRetla]

Originally Posted by nano

And I still dont really understand how Hagrid could pick up Harry from Godrics Hollow if the secret hadnt been lifted. If it had - no problem Bathilda saw what had happened and told DD but if it hadnt - how did they find the house?

We're told several times that the charm had been broken.

Indeed, I suspect that since it was primarily a secret from Voldemort--that Wormtail telling him might have broken the charm all by itself.

Where did you get the impression James was running around in his Invisibility Cloak? The Charm had only been cast ten days when Voldemort arrived--and Dumbledore had the Cloak prior to that.

[TeraBlight]

Originally Posted by IgoRetla

We're told several times that the charm had been broken.

Indeed, I suspect that since it was primarily a secret from Voldemort--that Wormtail telling him might have broken the charm all by itself.

Ah, interesting. I also stumbled over JKR's phrasing here,

Chapter "Bathilda's Secret" And along a new and darker street he moved, and now his destination was in sight at last, the Fidelius Charm broken, though they did not know it yet ...

but figured she was just using the word "broken" carelessly, but you might be correct in that if the Charm was cast specifically or mainly against Voldemort, she may mean exactly what she writes...

[Aliena]

of course sirius knew wormtail was secret keeper- he suggested it to the potters!

Oh, sorry, blonde moment; I was thinking of the scene where Sirius & Lupin talk about each thinking the other was a spy, and translating that in my head to post-murder/Secret-Keeper rather than pre-murder/spy! Oops!

The Charm had only been cast ten days when Voldemort arrived

Right, so the letter from Lily to Sirius was written before the FC was cast, and so Bathilda would have been coming to visit before their location was hidden.

I may be way off track here, but as I understood it they didn't put the Fidelius Charm on their house (or the Burrow, og Muriels (sp.?) place) untill after Harry and the others had appered.

That's how I understood it, too.

[Snapes_Girl]

Originally Posted by jkmonkey28

Well I feel better knowing I am not alone in being confused over this. I think I understand a bit better from peoples responses on here but still if I could ask JKR one question it would be to explain this to me in great detail so I feel a bit less like Crabbe and Goyle on this subject.

Me too! :-)

[NeuroComp]

So how did harry get through the fidelius charm at shell cottage?
The scene where dobby died =[.

Did dobby do a sidealong apparition through *** charm(house-elf magic)
before =[ dying in harry's arms? To my knowledge, harry apparated not dobby.

Or did bill tell harry where it was at some point in ....umm i dont' remember there
being a scene where this happened unless it did when they were at the burrow.

Or did lupin provide a note written by bill during the argument at grimmauld...don't remmeber him passing a note.

Or was it ron? which like lupin i don't think he gave a note.

[rnorwood]

Originally Posted by NeuroComp

So how did harry get through the fidelius charm at shell cottage?
The scene where dobby died =[.

Did dobby do a sidealong apparition through *** charm(house-elf magic)
before =[ dying in harry's arms? To my knowledge, harry apparated not dobby.

Or did bill tell harry where it was at some point in ....umm i dont' remember there
being a scene where this happened unless it did when they were at the burrow.

Or did lupin provide a note written by bill during the argument at grimmauld...don't remmeber him passing a note.

Or was it ron? which like lupin i don't think he gave a note.

The Fidelius Charm wasn't put on until the trio + Dobby, Luna, Dean, Griphook and Ollivander arrived. Until the trio went to Malfoy manor the Weasley famiy was under suspicion but not directly in the line of fire because the MoM thought Ron had Spattergoit and was at the Burrow. When he appeared at Malfoy Manor alive and well, then disappeared, the DE had a reason to go to any of the main Weasley homes, so the main group of Weasley's went to Aunt Muriel's, where Mr Weasley became Secret Keeper. The FC was also then performed on Shell Cottage with Bill as Secret Keeper.

[Sirius_Bakk]

I think that the one who carries the secret can chose to break it.
Sure, usually that doesn't happen, because the one who carries the secret is supposed to be a person that wants to protect it - but Wormtail wasn't.

So, maybe, he just "broke" the secret and told Voldemort where they lived.
That would explain why muggles were able to see the scene.
This would explain, also, how they manage to destroy the charm after the "danger" is over. Maybe Bill just "broke" the charm and let his house to be free again after voldemort's death in DH.

And, as many people alredy said, the FC was cast after Harry's arrive at the cottage.

The only question that drive me crazy is... why James or Lily weren't the Secret Keeper?

[NeuroComp]

"And, as many people alredy said, the FC was cast after Harry's arrive at the cottage.."

isn't it from *** book that bill had already escorted his family and then cast the FC before harry arives?

[Sirius_Bakk]

Originally Posted by NeuroComp

isn't it from *** book that bill had already escorted his family and then cast the FC before harry arives?

Maybe he casted it over the Burrow before Harry's arrive, and after in the Shell Cottage.
I don't remember the exact quote.

[squibpott]

...the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else

This bit keeps her explanation intact. If twenty people know the 'Secret' then those twenty people will become the new Secret Keepers once the original Secret Keeper(Dumbledore) dies. The Secret can be passed on and we see this in Deathly Hallows. All the Order members are Secret Keepers now. And becuase there are so many of them the Secret becomes fragile, as Lupin(?) explained.

[General_Ridley]

Originally Posted by nano

If the secret dies with the caster as some have said on here - why then is Grimmauld Place still under the FC?

Dumbles was Sevret Keeper for Grimmauld Place. Maybe he wasn't the caster. Flitwick or McGonnagall may have been.

[rnorwood]

Originally Posted by squibpott

This bit keeps her explanation intact. If twenty people know the 'Secret' then those twenty people will become the new Secret Keepers once the original Secret Keeper(Dumbledore) dies. The Secret can be passed on and we see this in Deathly Hallows. All the Order members are Secret Keepers now. And becuase there are so many of them the Secret becomes fragile, as Lupin(?) explained.

I absolutely agree with this interpretation.

Sirius_Bakk - that's a great theory and makes a lot of sense. If the SK has some way to undo or break the charm, then this would fit perfectly with events.

I don't think the Burrow had an FC on it - just protections, meaning you couldn't apparate in and out etc - and some of those were broken when the Ministry fell. Those protections were primarily there for Harry's sake. Once he was on the run, perhaps they didn't put them all back on? Anyhow, it says earlier that the Ministry officials have been there to check up on Ron and fell for the Spattergoit ruse.

The Shell Cottage/Aunty Muriel's FC passage is as follows.

From DH, Oz Ed, The Wandmaker, p 390.

"I've been getting them all out of The Burrow," he [Bill] explained. "Moved them to Muriel's. The Death Eaters know Ron's with you now, they're bound to target the family - don't apologise," he added, at the sight of Harry's expression. "It was always a matter of time, Dad's been saying so for months. We're the biggest blood traitor family there is."
"How are they protected?" asked Harry.
"Fidelius Charm. Dad's Secret Keeper. And We've done it on the cottage too; I'm Secret Keeper here. None of us can go to work, but that's hardly the most important thing now. Once Ollivander and Griphook are well enough, we'll move them to Muriel's too. ..."

[Den_muggle]

The Shell Cottage/Aunty Muriel's FC passage is as follows.

From DH, Oz Ed, The Wandmaker, p 390.
Quote:
"I've been getting them all out of The Burrow," he [Bill] explained. "Moved them to Muriel's. The Death Eaters know Ron's with you now, they're bound to target the family - don't apologise," he added, at the sight of Harry's expression. "It was always a matter of time, Dad's been saying so for months. We're the biggest blood traitor family there is."
"How are they protected?" asked Harry.
"Fidelius Charm. Dad's Secret Keeper. And We've done it on the cottage too; I'm Secret Keeper here. None of us can go to work, but that's hardly the most important thing now. Once Ollivander and Griphook are well enough, we'll move them to Muriel's too. ..."

What I want to know is how Bill is able to tell them that the family is at Muriel's when he also says "Dad is the Secret-Keeper" so he (Bill) shouldn't be able to tell them the secret, even if he could take them there. That is totally against the rules! He can't tell a secret when he's not the secret-keeper!!! I hate the Secret Keeper spell. The rules change too much!

[General_Ridley]

Originally Posted by Den_muggle

What I want to know is how Bill is able to tell them that the family is at Muriel's when he also says "Dad is the Secret-Keeper" so he (Bill) shouldn't be able to tell them the secret, even if he could take them there. That is totally against the rules! He can't tell a secret when he's not the secret-keeper!!! I hate the Secret Keeper spell. The rules change too much!

He says it. But because he's not Secret Keeper, nor did he divulge where Muriel's Place is, they still can't get there anyway. They can go, but they won't see it, because the Secret Keeper never gave them the info.

[JadeFox]

Whoops delete please.

[ronjalina]

Originally Posted by General_Ridley

He says it. But because he's not Secret Keeper, nor did he divulge where Muriel's Place is, they still can't get there anyway. They can go, but they won't see it, because the Secret Keeper never gave them the info.

I agree. I think it´s the actual address that is under the FC. So, if any of the trio came across the place, they would not see it.