Albus Dumbledore: Manipulator

[Daelin]

I want to be careful about this thread. I still think, for example, that Albus Dumbledore was noble and idealistic, a man who cared deeply about the children at Hogwarts, and about good creatures everywhere. That said, there were clues throughout the books which came to a head in "Deathly Hallows", showing that Albus Dumbledore could be ruthless and manipulative in carrying out his plans. While he explained himself, somewhat, to Harry in "Order of the Phoenix" about why he held off telling Harry about the prophecy, and in "Deathly Hallows" why he never explined the whole scope of the mission, it's obvious that Albus made some choices which had very serious consequences, for all of the major characters.

We know for example, that it was Albus who ordered Snape to reveal the date and time of Harry leaving the Dursley home, and so it was Albus Dumbledore, in the end, who shares responsibility for the death of Alastor Moody.

It was Albus who ordered Severus Snape to kill him, knowing the consequences would unjustly make Severus an outcast from the only people he could otherwise trust - in essence, Albus condemned Severus to serve as a spy until he was caught and killed, or else just killed.

It was Albus who set up a trap for Quirrell, hoping to catch out Voldemort, but which in the end resulted in Quirrel's death.

It was Albus whose plans prevented him from letting Harry and Sirius know enough to trust the word of Severus Snape, and so Albus shares respnsibility for the death of Sirius Black. Go back and look again at Albus' confession to Harry in the last part of "Order of the Phoenix", and you will see he plainly confesses this. It turns out this was not mere modesty or a humble friend trying to make Harry feel better, but the plain truth.

It can be said, and should, that many of the things Albus did which resulted in pain, suffering, loss, and death for so many peopole were necessary and the cost could not be avoided, yet it must also be noted that Albus Dumbledore made those choices, and some of those choices were mistakes. They were the "huge" mistakes Dumbledore meant, I believe.

It is a fact of Reality, that leaders must make hard choices at times. There are times when a leader has to give an order which he knows will result in someone's death. It is not evil or wrong to give such orders if there is an absolute need for this, but it is important to also see that the weight of these decisions has its effect. I noticed that Dumbledore never told Harry all he ought to have done, nor - it seems - all he meant to say. His plans were very good, but they never quite worked out as he planned, and Albus kept his own counsel, never asking anyone else to weigh his ideas and test them. In short, Albus Dumbledore was human, in great and wonderful ways, but also in less noble measures, as well.

[rhianne]

Yes, I agree.
Dumbledore knew that he owned the Elder Wand and intended Snape to have it after Snape had "killed" him. This condemned Snape to death as Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was seeking the wand and that he would figure out that Snape was the wands owner.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here? But it sounds as if Dumbledore sacrificed Snape in a way...

[jlpforpotter]

Are you implying that DD is, in fact, still working for "the greater good," but that his interpretation has changed from the one he shared with Grindelwald?

[Vertigo9]

Originally Posted by rhianne

Yes, I agree.
Dumbledore knew that he owned the Elder Wand and intended Snape to have it after Snape had "killed" him. This condemned Snape to death as Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was seeking the wand and that he would figure out that Snape was the wands owner.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here? But it sounds as if Dumbledore sacrificed Snape in a way...

Yes, I agree. But on the other hand, I see Snape as accepting this sacrifice; I don't think anyone who was a double agent for the Order and the Death Eaters would have thought they had a very long life expectancy anyway.

[Fenix]

Originally Posted by jlpforpotter

Are you implying that DD is, in fact, still working for "the greater good," but that his interpretation has changed from the one he shared with Grindelwald?

nice idea...
i agree

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

He had to, it was for the "greater good". When he was young, he was flawed. If his mother and sister hadn't died like they did, I am sure he may have become somewhat like Tom Riddle. He had the the same ideas about muggles before, and he was willing to sacrifice. After the death, it hit him hard so he became good and even once he was a bit flawed, it was all for good intentions

[jlpforpotter]

I also forgot to mention in my first post, Doge actually commends DD for pursuing the greater good in the obituary he wrote...

[jkmonkey28]

I agree on all counts. And as for Snape not having much of a life expectancy anyways being a double agent I think part of why he was able to do both rolls was he didn't think he had much to live for anyway. Judging from his memories given to Harry, I don't think he was happy living without Lily, she seemed to be everything to him. I do think that Dumbledore manipulated a lot to get every one and every thing as it needed to be and yes 'for the greater good', but I do also think that Snape knew what would be needed of him in the end as well.

[Lillbet]

Originally Posted by Daelin

It is a fact of Reality, that leaders must make hard choices at times. There are times when a leader has to give an order which he knows will result in someone's death. It is not evil or wrong to give such orders if there is an absolute need for this, but it is important to also see that the weight of these decisions has its effect. I noticed that Dumbledore never told Harry all he ought to have done, nor - it seems - all he meant to say. His plans were very good, but they never quite worked out as he planned, and Albus kept his own counsel, never asking anyone else to weigh his ideas and test them. In short, Albus Dumbledore was human, in great and wonderful ways, but also in less noble measures, as well.

Agreed. Dumbledore was working for the greater good (and not in an evil way this time). Harry is, basically, collateral damage- he has been groomed to bring Voldemort down, but rather than let Voldemort have him, Dumbledore has been equipping Harry for life. Granted, in the end it's a life he can't truly enjoy while Voldemort lives, and Dumbledore is aware of this- he's also developed an affection for Harry. What was really telling, at least for me, was Dumbledore saying that although Harry must die, that he wanted to give him a chance to test his mettle: "We have protected him, because it has been essential to teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength... If I know him, he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly meant the end of Voldemort." (pg. 687)

As Dumbledore said in an earlier book, because he is smarter than the average man his mistakes tend to be even greater.

Originally Posted by Vertigo9

Yes, I agree. But on the other hand, I see Snape as accepting this sacrifice; I don't think anyone who was a double agent for the Order and the Death Eaters would have thought they had a very long life expectancy anyway.

Snape definitely sacrificed himself in memory of Lily- recognition of his limited power (as opposed to Dumbledore's) is probably what brought him to seek the headmaster's help, rather then the fear of death.

[Onyma]

Well said. I agree.

[Yeats]

Great posts--Dumbledore certainly seemed the most human and fallible to me in this book---definitely removed from his pedestal! I'm a bit uncomfortable with him arranging for Snape to kill him--it's almost as if when Dumbledore asks Snape what he'll do for the Order since he regrets his association with the DEs and Snape replies 'anything' that Dumbledore takes him at his word... Snape, in the end, had to do 'anything' and 'everything'.

[TnK]

All is fair in love and war.... Good lord, that phrase rings SO true with Dumbledore and Snape and the whole situation between those two.

[espada]

A lot of the things Dumbledore did was the fact that he was trying to repent for his past mistakes, although that cannot be said by telling Snape to kill him, almost all of his actions were planned in a way so that Harry would be the final one to finish Voldemort. The Greater Good was what Dumbledore was working towards, he wasnt only trying to protect Harry, he didnt use him, he was merely trying to get Harry to understand and pick up where he left off.

[ehemisgod]

i dunno, I think that Dumbledore did sacrifice Snape and I think that he should have least told him the whole truth - I think Snape had earnt that.

[allie28]

I think Dumbledore was absolutely a manipulator, quite the puppet master and in some ways was quite similar to Voldemort in that he believed strongly in his own intelligence, kept his own counsel and didn't really seem to have friends but 'colleagues'. However, whereas Voldemort was all about personal gain, Dumbledore worked for the 'greater good'.

I have always loved Dumbledore but I wonder if the readers view of Dumbledore is tainted by seeing him through Harry's eyes? I don't think anyone else would have really regarded him as a kindly grandfather type figure. To anyone else he must have been a very powerful and influential wizard and people with power - from Voldemort to the Minister of Magic- were very wary of him. He did not encourage over familiarity, even with Harry, and seemed to keep everyone at arms length. Despite Dumbledore observing that various of Voldemort's followers would claim to be closest to him, or his right hand man etc, when in reality Voldemort needed nor desired anyone to fill this role, the same could be said about Dumbledore himself. IIRC when Snape confronted Dumbledore about refusing to give him all of the information in DH, Dumbledore said something about not putting all his secrets in one basket.

I can't help but think he must appear as a very different character to the adults in the book, of whom he expects so much, than to Harry who up until he met Dumbledore had been neglected and starved of affection. The beauty of seeing Snape's memories in the penseive was that we did actually get to see Dumbledore through someone else's eyes and we were shocked by what we saw.

I do think Dumbledore was a manipulator, but ultimately a good person - just not as saintly as I at first thought!

[Ginny1984]

I remember getting to Snapes memories in DH and feeling really angry with Dumbledore, I was mollified slightly when Dumberdore admitted in 'Kings Cross' that he had a hunch that Harry would survive, but it still seemed as though DD had completely used Harry throughout his life, as he could never be sure that Harry would live!

[muggleborn1]

Originally Posted by Ginny1984

I remember getting to Snapes memories in DH and feeling really angry with Dumbledore, I was mollified slightly when Dumberdore admitted in 'Kings Cross' that he had a hunch that Harry would survive, but it still seemed as though DD had completely used Harry throughout his life, as he could never be sure that Harry would live!

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that Harry had been used by DD throughout his life.... Knowing Harry as we do now through 7 books... If at the beginning of book 1, DD had sat Harry down and told him that in order to kill LV, he would have to die himself.... do you think it would have stopped Harry from doing what needed to be done?

I don't think he would have... though he would have had a much heavier burden to live with...

I think DD knew the same to be true and hoped to spare Harry that burdon as long as possible.

[sapere_aude]

Dumbledore we find was a most patronizing man; I loathe him for it.

[aleta]

I think that there was a definite attempt to protect Harry, but that protection is also manipulation. Even when Harry demanded the truth about Snape, Dumbledore wouldn't give it to him. I understand at that point that Snape probably didn't want his love for Lily known to Harry, but still. I finished the book liking Dumbledore a lot less. He's still an incredibly wise man but I think that if he had told Harry when he told him about the Horcruxes that Harry might have to die, Harry would have accepted it and done the job anyway.

I was as mad at Dumbledore as Harry was for not giving them all the clues they needed. His ambiguous clue with the Snitch, his making it hard for them to get the sword. they had enough to do without worrying about those things.

[blondy359]

i personally loved how JK took DD off his pedestal. Dont get me wrong, i felt that DD was that much needed guidence for herry. when he died, it scared me because firstly, it meant that harry had to do things alone without DD plans or hints or whatever. but by showing us (and harry) that DD did have a past of darkness and that he was flawed, it proved that harry was also capable of doing what DD did. never was harry interesting in the dark arts, but he wasnt a completely *perfect* person. he was proud, he was emotional and rash and did break rules. he lied to teachers etc. but overall, it proved that HE IS FLAWED. and since DD, the greatest wizard that ever lived, was also flawed (even more so in my opinion) it should that techincally, those postions of authority and recognition can be given to anyone.