Albus Dumbledore: Manipulator

[eternitygoddess]

But we must remember that Dumbledore did not revel in manipulating others, like Voldemort did.

He manipulated because it was necessary and in trying times, can you really blame him?

[padfootandme]

Originally Posted by eternitygoddess

But we must remember that Dumbledore did not revel in manipulating others, like Voldemort did.

He manipulated because it was necessary and in trying times, can you really blame him?

I agree, he never manipulated people for his own personal benefit. He did it so that he could have a better understanding for things such as how to defeat Voldemort or how to find his horcruxes.

[wizardswheezes]

Originally Posted by Yeats

Great posts--Dumbledore certainly seemed the most human and fallible to me in this book---definitely removed from his pedestal! I'm a bit uncomfortable with him arranging for Snape to kill him--it's almost as if when Dumbledore asks Snape what he'll do for the Order since he regrets his association with the DEs and Snape replies 'anything' that Dumbledore takes him at his word... Snape, in the end, had to do 'anything' and 'everything'.

I agree with you completely about Snape - Dumbledore really did ask everything of him. He became a spy, killer and, ultimately, gave his life.

[Chrido]

I was feeling uneasy about Dumbledore since HBP because I understood him risking students life (Katie, Ron) to save Draco. When people developed the theory that Dumbledore has ordered Snape to kill him I said everytime: No, never - Dumbledore would never do that. He did it, he made Snape to do him a favour: mercy-killing, isn´t it? I´m struggling very hard with this part of the story, I´m feeling very uncomfortable with it.
Dumbledores confession of his feelings for Harry at the end of OoP made him a very human puppet-master who almost had destroyed his plans for the greater Good. At the end of DH the humanity is overshadowed and that makes me unhappy.

[vampiricduck]

I think he's a master manipulator. I think he was forced into a position of leadership too though, as the head of the order of the phoenix, and I think he had to learn to adapt to that, even though he knew that power was bad for him. He would use it from a desire to do good, but as a warrior, he realised that there would be casualties, himself included, most likely.

He did promise Snape never to reveal his secret, and he didn't. Snape did himself, and that's it. Dumbledore did keep his word to the man who had once betrayed him, just as Snape kept his word to Dumbledore until the day of his own death.

We heard for six books about how Dumbledore, being considerably more intelligent than most other men, made mistakes, and those mistakes were correspondingly catastrophic, but I don't think his manipulation of the situation was a mistake. Without his plans and plotting, I don't think that things would have turned out so well.

He accepted, as leaders do, the will and responsibility for making decisions, and it seems from his reliving of his worst memory after drinking that potion in book 6, that every bit of pain he felt, he channeled toward his punishment for killing hsi sister, or at least, being responsible for her death. Because he was responsible for her death.

In accepting that responsibility, he knew there woudl be casualties. The fact that he manipulated people into making decisions they might otherwise not have made is both a testament to his strength and to his weaknesses. He couldn't trust others to get it right, he had to do ti for them.

I can't hate him for not telling Harry everything. The man himself knew what it was like to not have a childhood, and he wanted Harry to have that at least. He probably gathered, from the way that Harry was so like his mother, that Harry had a sense of duty, and that the duty would not go undone. He wanted Harry to experience as much of his childhood as he could. I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. It just shows where Dumbledore hurts really.

I don't think I agree either, that he used Harry throughout his life. had he copped it, he probably would have one to the Chamber of Secrets himself. He would have faced Riddle for the Philosopher's Stone, he did help give Harry back his godfather, he believed him straight off about Voldemort coming back in the Hangleton graveyard. He brought Harry with him to get the locket. When he realised that he was not gonig to make it very far beyond this point, he set about making sure that Harry would know what to do and where to go next, but at the same time, that nobody else could work it out. He knew the Scrimgeour would be onto him like a sack of cats, and he didn't want everyone knowing the truth. I understand why.

I think he manipulated lots of people, but never made them do what they didn't already want to. That's why everyone was so loyal to him. Snape, because he came back of his own accord seeking forgiveness. The Order of the Phoenix because they all wanted to do good, to get rid of Voldemort.

He didn't even manipulate the Dursleys, simply asked that they let Harry stay one more summer. He wrote them a letter. They knew what had to be done too, and he counted on Petunia's feelings of remorse for not being a witch to hold Harry in that house.

I see his mistakes, but I don't think he was as bad as maybe he's made out to be, when we look at him a little more.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Chrido

I was feeling uneasy about Dumbledore since HBP because I understood him risking students life (Katie, Ron) to save Draco. When people developed the theory that Dumbledore has ordered Snape to kill him I said everytime: No, never - Dumbledore would never do that. He did it, he made Snape to do him a favour: mercy-killing, isn´t it? I´m struggling very hard with this part of the story, I´m feeling very uncomfortable with it.

I had similiar feelings. It bothers me to find out that Dumbledore actually did ask Snape to kill him. The Draco's soul excuse and the mercy killing excuse don't justify it, in my opinion. The Elder Wand does explain most of it, though. Dumbledore needed to die undefeated so that Voldemort could never be Master of the Elder Wand. I think he used Snape in order to achieve that goal. I have problems with this because Snape thought he was doing everything for Lily. Dumbledore was able to capitalize on his obsession. I have a lot of problems with the way Dumbledore sacrificed people for the greater good.

[wizardswheezes]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

I had similiar feelings. It bothers me to find out that Dumbledore actually did ask Snape to kill him. The Draco's soul excuse and the mercy killing excuse don't justify it, in my opinion. The Elder Wand does explain most of it, though. Dumbledore needed to die undefeated so that Voldemort could never be Master of the Elder Wand. I think he used Snape in order to achieve that goal. I have problems with this because Snape thought he was doing everything for Lily. Dumbledore was able to capitalize on his obsession. I have a lot of problems with the way Dumbledore sacrificed people for the greater good.

But Snape was still doing everything for Lily. Dumbledore wanted the power of the Elder wand to die with him in order to protect Harry. Snape wanted to protect Harry for Lily....

[im4prongs]

Originally Posted by sapere_aude

Dumbledore we find was a most patronizing man; I loathe him for it.

Wow, don't miss the point here. I believe that Jo really painted a masterful picture of Dumbledore - you could argue that he is one of the most fully developed characters in the series - a man who is essentially good but human and flawed.
Dumbledore's biggest weakness, imo, is his inability to fully trust others. When it came to Harry, that meant groping around in the dark and being incredibly frustrated. That was quite unfair to Harry. But, when you begin to examine all the insidious threats that Harry and others faced, from the Ministry in particular, you see that Dumbledore erred on the side of caution.
It's important to remember, when examining DD's strengths and weaknesses, that he did everything to stop Voldemort. Imagine a world ruled by the Dark Lord vs. the lovely ending we got from Jo. That alone vindicates Dumbledore.

[missgolightly]

Originally Posted by im4prongs

Wow, don't miss the point here. I believe that Jo really painted a masterful picture of Dumbledore - you could argue that he is one of the most fully developed characters in the series - a man who is essentially good but human and flawed.
Dumbledore's biggest weakness, imo, is his inability to fully trust others. When it came to Harry, that meant groping around in the dark and being incredibly frustrated. That was quite unfair to Harry. But, when you begin to examine all the insidious threats that Harry and others faced, from the Ministry in particular, you see that Dumbledore erred on the side of caution.
It's important to remember, when examining DD's strengths and weaknesses, that he did everything to stop Voldemort. Imagine a world ruled by the Dark Lord vs. the lovely ending we got from Jo. That alone vindicates Dumbledore.

Very well said. The ends justify the means.

I also have to agree with those that said that Dumbledore knew Harry had a sense of conviction about killing Voldemort. No matter what Dumbledore could have or should have said Harry was going to make it his mission to get rid of him. This is blazing obvious in all books. Harry did kill Voldemort, didn't he? And everyone that fought with him, and died, knew that he would.

As far as Severus and Dumbledore's relationship goes, I think that Snape, was a much more complicated character than some give him credit for. We never got to see his internal struggle between all sides; The Order, The Death Eaters, Lily, Harry...True, we get a glimpse of this in DH, but it's barely the entire spectrum. That being said, I think that he would have done anything to the man that gave him a second chance at protecting Lily, and all that she stood for.

Overall, Dumbledore's manipulations were necessary and vindicated. I think that makes him human, as many of you have said, and we really get to the heart of that when he confesses to Harry at the end of DH.

[JediBeldarine]

I am pretty sure I'm alone in this, but...

Did anyone else get the feeling, at the end of DH, that Dumbledore should have been a Slytherin? It's widely assumed he was a Gryffindor yet I don't see many traces of bravery in him after DH. He even feared facing Grindelwald because of what happened with Arianna -- sad, albeit, but still....

He was manipulative, vain, cunning and intelligent. He was ruthless in that he would sacrifice anything to get what he wanted (the greater good). Seems to me the hallmarks of Slytherin house.

That being said, I still like Dumbledore. I think he truly was trying to do good and he exemplifies the statement "sometimes what is right is not always easy." I think he's the perfect yin to Snape's yang -- we're shown the bad of Dumbledore (who is considered inherently good) and the good of Snape (who is considered inherently evil).

[UAM]

I have felt that Dumbledore was a manipulator ever since Philosopher's Stone and as such have never been a massive fan of him or put him on the pedestal that some other fans have. To me, Dumbledore has always been putting lives at risk and because he never fully shares anything with anyone, has put more lives at risk and has ultimately been responsible for deaths.

He was setting Harry up to kill Voldemort ever since leaving him on the doorstep of the Dursleys, but he never told Harry enough of anything to help him along the path. The frustration this could have caused might have been disastrous. And what if Dumbledore's irresponsibility led to Harry's death? I know he was wanting Harry to learn for himself and test his own strengths etc, but if Harry was to die in doing so, Dumbledore would have had yet another death on his hands.

Dumbledore must have been aware of what he was asking Snape to do, but would not know the full extent of the experience of what it was like to do it. Snape had to lead a double life for all those years, never being fully trusted by either side and putting his life at risk every day. Dumbledore was also asking (I say asking, it's really telling) Snape to kill and those who he killed were those on the side of Dumbledore.

I believe that Dumbledore could have save many lives and saved the heartbreak of others by not being so closed. He manipulated people for "the greater good" or so he told people.

[elin]

Originally Posted by aleta

I was as mad at Dumbledore as Harry was for not giving them all the clues they needed. His ambiguous clue with the Snitch, his making it hard for them to get the sword. they had enough to do without worrying about those things.

Dumbledore's clues are as clear as they can be. Remember, Dumbledore's will was examined by the Ministry and Dumbledore expected it. On the other hand, he left the trio just what they needed on their quest to destroy Horcruxes. Moreover, it was the Ministry which prevented Harry from getting a sword - Dumbledore made sure that Harry did get it.

Originally Posted by eternitygoddess

But we must remember that Dumbledore did not revel in manipulating others, like Voldemort did.

He manipulated because it was necessary and in trying times, can you really blame him?

I agree. I don't think for a moment that Dumbledore didn't feel bad about the suffering and deaths he directly or indirectly caused, just as he was never free of the guilt of Ariana's death. Despite everything, I think Dumbledore was still a compassionate, loving person, and he did what he had to do so that peace would dawn upon the wizarding community.

[willmingtonwave]

I prefer to call Albus Dumbledore an "orchestrator" rather than a manipulator.

[ginger1]

I am stcking to my original phrase for Dumbledore. Puppet Master.

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by Yeats

Great posts--Dumbledore certainly seemed the most human and fallible to me in this book---definitely removed from his pedestal! I'm a bit uncomfortable with him arranging for Snape to kill him--it's almost as if when Dumbledore asks Snape what he'll do for the Order since he regrets his association with the DEs and Snape replies 'anything' that Dumbledore takes him at his word... Snape, in the end, had to do 'anything' and 'everything'.

Yes, and we know Snape didn't want to kill DD. I have trouble with the whole death arrangement too. Asking another person to murder is asking alot regardless of the circumstances. And poor Snape killed him and he didn't have to because of Draco got to DD first! The Elder Wand couldn't belong to Snape. Too bad Fenrir (or one of the others) didn't kill DD, then LV would have taken care of him.

I see DD as playing a game of chess and the people are his pieces. As Ron says in PS/SS you have to make sacrifices, that's chess. Easy enough to do with chessmen, much more difficult with real people.

I think DD was fond of Harry, maybe loved him, but DD was too willing to risk people's lives for "the greater good". He had too many secrets. Too bad he didn't feel like he could confide in others the way Harry could with Ron and Hermione (and eventually Neville). That might have been DD's biggest downfall which led to him being a manipulator.

DD didn't seek outward power ie: Ministry of Magic, but he still sought power through manipulation.

[Harsh_Potter]

Originally Posted by JediBeldarine

I am pretty sure I'm alone in this, but...

Did anyone else get the feeling, at the end of DH, that Dumbledore should have been a Slytherin? It's widely assumed he was a Gryffindor yet I don't see many traces of bravery in him after DH. He even feared facing Grindelwald because of what happened with Arianna -- sad, albeit, but still....

He was manipulative, vain, cunning and intelligent. He was ruthless in that he would sacrifice anything to get what he wanted (the greater good). Seems to me the hallmarks of Slytherin house.

That being said, I still like Dumbledore. I think he truly was trying to do good and he exemplifies the statement "sometimes what is right is not always easy." I think he's the perfect yin to Snape's yang -- we're shown the bad of Dumbledore (who is considered inherently good) and the good of Snape (who is considered inherently evil).

Erm..but he still faced his fear, didn't he? He still set out to face Grindelwald, however late it might be.

Bravery is not absence of fear, it is facing yur fear and IMO, that's what Dumbledore did.

I loved how Dumbledore was portrayed in DH and I love him even more now.

I do agree that Dumbledore was a manipulator. His plans(and the people he put forward for it) however, were for the greater good of the magical community, not like Voldemort who wanted to rule over it.

The means might be the same(though I get disturbed when people relate DD to Voldemort), but the reasons were different.

I don't think that DD would have ended up like Voldemort if his mother and sister hadn't died. Even during all his friendship with Grindelwald...he still had his scruples. I believe he would have got a shock about Grindelwald sometime or the other....it just happened in the form of the deaths of his family.

[GoodWizard]

My impression of Dumbledore has been greatly altered after I read DH.

[snuka]

Dumbledore lost a lot of points with me.
He was manipulating everyone else, and did what was necessary to win, even if it was for "the greater good".

[cravensbane]

I am sorry if the following ideas have been repeated earlier it is hard to read all of the posts .

. I think Dumbledore was a great man doing everthing he could to limit the risk to others but understanding that others must also take risk or all would be lost. I do not think he thought Harry would have to come into play so soon. But once he knew he was going to die he knew it was esential for Harry to understand everything

. I don't think Dumbledore liked Snape. The only thing Snape loved was Lily. Who knows what evils he participated in before Lily's death. In Snapes memory when Snape becomes angry with Dumbledore for sacrificing Harry, Dumbldore for a moment says "have you come to care for the boy?" But snape immediatly proves his motivation is still Lily. I think Perhaps if Dumbledore believed Snape actually cared for Lily then he could have reveled more of the plan to him. But Dumbledore needed Harry to believe he was going to his death even though Dumbledore had done everything he could to make sure Harry lived. Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice his own appearence of nobility to be assured that Snape would believe Harry had to die so that Harry would truly believe he was going to his own death. It was the only way the Hallows could work. It takes a great deal of courage to sacrifice others good opinion and love of you.

I think Dumbledore was indeed unwise in his youth but I believe he learned a hard lesson. Nobody is born wise. I think everything Dumbledore did was to help protect everyone he could . Even a confidence in someone else could have risked everything. It must have been very lonely

I believe Snape didn't Want to kill Dumbledore but his anger and revulsion was indeed directed toward Dumbledore. He was mad at him for his revelations about Harry. I cannot see one unwise or uncaring thing Dumbledore did after his youthful tragedies. I think think things did not always go as he hoped. It is easier to see what to do when you are looking back. No one can predict the future.

[sllagnire]

Originally Posted by willmingtonwave

I prefer to call Albus Dumbledore an "orchestrator" rather than a manipulator.

I like that. Much better than manipulator. Although i do think he was a bit of both.