Albus Dumbledore: Manipulator

[joefirebolt]

DD trusted his powers of deduction and wisdom more than in those who commtted their lives to fighting in the Order. The way he shared information all in bits and pieces to so many who trusted him and the way he pulled the strings in his 'grand plan'; he was a manipulator in the strongest sense.

Was this fair to Harry, Snape, Sirius, and anyone else who was unaware of vital information that could have caused pause or even a change of mind towards a particular strategy? Certainly not.

Being a leader is hard. You have to keep the goal in mind. You have to make decisions that you know could cause the deaths of many people you care about. But the greater good is more important than anything. Peace in the wizarding world and the end of Voldemort justified the means. DD had blood on his hands. That's part of being a leader. He has karma for decisions he had made unlike Harry.

When DD mentions here and there that Harry is a better man than himself, he wasn't flattering Harry at all. He was being truthful. Harry was never tempted as DD was to those 'Magic over Muggles' nonsense. He trusted Ron and Hermoine as DD never had with him. Harry was the better man, no question in my mind.

[Chrido]

Originally Posted by joefirebolt

DD trusted his powers of deduction and wisdom more than in those who commtted their lives to fighting in the Order. (...)Was this fair to Harry, Snape, Sirius, and anyone else who was unaware of vital information that could have caused pause or even a change of mind towards a particular strategy? Certainly not.
Being a leader is hard. You have to keep the goal in mind. You have to make decisions that you know could cause the deaths of many people you care about. But the greater good is more important than anything. Peace in the wizarding world and the end of Voldemort justified the means. DD had blood on his hands. That's part of being a leader. He has karma for decisions he had made unlike Harry.(...)

Whow, very good! I´m impressed! Yes he trusted his powers more than he trusted in the simple courage of people like James and Sirius. And that was not fair. But wise. But I don´t like it though.

Your words about leaders remember me of war. Sacrifices are necessary and then justified... That could never be my decisions. Yes, Dumbledore has blood on his hands. But you could always say, that he tried to save Harry through the quest. Harry never could have been a puppet-master, therefore he is the better man. But he had been the losing man without Dumbledores plans? That is a hard thing for me to take.

[FingolfinKing]

In my opinion, Dumbledore was the wisest person ever. Manipulation? Good, that's what you NEED to face someone like Voldemort. If Dumbledore had been blase about his plans, would they have worked? No!

Hell, even sociopaths become the greatest business leaders. What's wrong with a little manipulation.

PS: I'm not arguing that Dumbledore is a sociopath.

[Lord Godric]

Dumbledore did pull the stings of all those involved in the fight against Voldemort. He told no one his master plan, except when Harry put all the pieces together after talking to Dumbledore at King's Cross and seeing Snape's memories. He pulled the strings for the "greater good" of all Mankind.

[Savvy07]

I have to admit, my liking for Dumbledore fell greatly upon reading The Deathly Hallows. But, as to be fair to Dumbledore, every human makes mistakes. It is quite plain that Dumbledore feels huge amounts of remorse for the things he has done. I think, could he have done things over, he may have changed the way he went about things. I think that Dumbledore may have had a sense of pride, being rather more intelligent than most wizards. I believe that this "pride" or whatever it was lead him to make mistakes or be too daring. I still think, though, that he is a wonderful man who should not be too harshly handled for his mistakes.

[Chosenoneknux]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

In my opinion, Dumbledore was the wisest person ever. Manipulation? Good, that's what you NEED to face someone like Voldemort. If Dumbledore had been blase about his plans, would they have worked? No!

Exactly, if he'd blabbed about his plans then Voldemort would've kept moving his Horcruxes around or just made more, and that would've produced an effective stalemate against the Order and Harry and co.

It needed to be kept secret to only those in 'the know' for it to ever work, and this was a war, and that along with revolutions always bring death and tragedy one way or another. That's just how they both work unfortunately, sacrifices sometimes have to made...

Overall though after reading DH, I loved Dumbledore even more!

[SarahDK]

I must say the most shocking about this book was the revelations about Dumbledore, but i dont think less of him .. he was a man with a plan and what he has done is something i think made a big difference in harrys survival, and i agree with the fact that harry had to learn things for himself, and dumbledore sacrificed him self for a greater cause.. i respect him deeply even though yes he had his flaws and he wasnt perfect but now i know for sure that he was just human .. and to this day (even though Harry defeated the dark lord) dumbledore will always be the greatest wizard that ever lived ..

[lupislune]

I think Dumbledore is the "weaver of the web" or controller of the plot of the series. He hangs his web between each character he encounters to enable Harry to catch the proverbial fly (Voldemort). Just after HBP came out I wrote a theory about the Spinner's End chapter was not about Snape, but was about planning the end of the Spinner of the plot, Dumbledore. In it I also thought that Aragog's death was foreshadowing the later death of Voldemort.

[ehemisgod]

What I don't get though is that Albus definitely manipulates people, he chooses and what informationg to release and when to release it to get the reaction he wants out of people - I understand the argument that this kind of behaviour is necessary to defeat people like Voldemorte but surely the way this is put forward contradicts directly with the idea that all that 'greater good' stuff he was into at the beginning was wrong - which he admits, as it caused the death of his sister! He says that he never went to the Ministry of Magic because he wanted to avoid power, but although he never occupied a formal position of power (or at least power in government, he was head of the only magical school in Britain and could influence and entire generation at a time) he controlled and manipulated nearly the entire series of events in the Harry Potter books, the Deathly Hallows basically is an enaction of his master plan - and the deaths of characters like Sirius and like Snape waved off as necessities in the pursuit of the 'Greater Good', something he said he stepped away from.

[fruitia pickleweed]

Originally Posted by ehemisgod

I understand the argument that this kind of behaviour is necessary to defeat people like Voldemorte but surely the way this is put forward contradicts directly with the idea that all that 'greater good' stuff he was into at the beginning was wrong - which he admits, as it caused the death of his sister! He says that he never went to the Ministry of Magic because he wanted to avoid power, but...he controlled and manipulated nearly the entire series of events in the Harry Potter books....and the deaths of characters like Sirius and like Snape waved off as necessities in the pursuit of the 'Greater Good', something he said he stepped away from.

I agree that this is contradictory, and now we are not sure what the message was supposed to be. Is it is all right to do dreadful things for the Greater Good, as long as it really is the Greater Good? But what if both sides think they have the Greater Good in mind?

In line with that, to me, there is the sudden adoption the Unforgiveable Curses by Harry and others on the "Good Side." I thought the point of the Unforgiveables was that they were evil. And at the beginning of DH Harry told Lupin why he wouldn't Stun Stan -- basically, "The end doesn't justify the means." Killing people just because they were in the way was Lord V's job, Harry said, and I thought that was part of what made Harry special. I thought Harry was articulating Rowling's position. Now I'm not clear.

[minervamc]

Originally Posted by fruitia pickleweed

I agree that this is contradictory, and now we are not sure what the message was supposed to be. Is it is all right to do dreadful things for the Greater Good, as long as it really is the Greater Good? But what if both sides think they have the Greater Good in mind?

In line with that, to me, there is the sudden adoption the Unforgiveable Curses by Harry and others on the "Good Side." I thought the point of the Unforgiveables was that they were evil. And at the beginning of DH Harry told Lupin why he wouldn't Stun Stan -- basically, "The end doesn't justify the means." Killing people just because they were in the way was Lord V's job, Harry said, and I thought that was part of what made Harry special. I thought Harry was articulating Rowling's position. Now I'm not clear.

This puts me in mind of GOF where Sirius is explaining about Crouch (sorry I dont have the book at hand to look up pg numbers) and that Crouch started to use unforgiveable curses on suspected death eaters becoming just as bad as them. Or in HBP where the ministry are rounding up innocent people like Stan Shunpike all for the appearance of doing something. The greater good.
Im not comfortable with it at all. Im surprised at the tone the series ended with. Harry using Imperious and Crucio! JKR used to work for amnesty, she has a link to them on her website. but this book almost seems to be saying murder and torture are justifiable for the greater good. and who decides that?

I was shocked at the way Snape was used. At the beginning of the book when his colleague is being hung upside down ready to be slaughtered and pleading for help from him he turns away, when I first read it I was shocked at the brutality of this scene I felt it would take a person with a heart of stone to do that but then because I was under the impression that Snape was evil and attributed it to that. But then to find out that Snape was still acting out Dumbledore's orders. Dumbledore being somehow complicit in this and other brutal murders. He said it himself that murder was the biggest act of evil "it splits the soul" yet ordered snape to kill him anyway.

I agree with others who have posted on this thread and pointed out that Harry was a better man in the end than Dumbledore ever was.

[gottaloveLupin]

I am so glad that someone started this thread and used this precise word, manipulator, because this is exactly what i think, especially after DH.

I started not to like Dd very much after OOTP, I was not that upset when he died in THBP, and I became very angry with him in DH. And I am surprised that nobody feels the same way, that everybody, including Harry helds him at the outmost respect.

This man cared for Harry and kept him safe and everything and trained him knewing very well that Harry was going to die. Until GOF, at least, when he finds out about the exchange of blood, he knew very well that Harry was a horcrux and had to die. How can you look a child in the eyes and knew that he is going to die and you are preparing him for that is beyond my imagination.

And he was manipulative with Snape and with a lot of other people.

Alberforth was right, Dd did not care that much about sacrificing people if it was for the "greater good".

I don't think the problem is that he didn't share the information. What bothers me the most is how he prepared poor Harry to die. What heart could this man have had to look Harry in the eyes and knew that he was going to die? I would never have sacrificed Harry for the "greater good" I would have looked for other ways!

[amandam_xym]

Originally Posted by gottaloveLupin

This man cared for Harry and kept him safe and everything and trained him knewing very well that Harry was going to die. Until GOF, at least, when he finds out about the exchange of blood, he knew very well that Harry was a horcrux and had to die. How can you look a child in the eyes and knew that he is going to die and you are preparing him for that is beyond my imagination.

Yes, but we also know that he found this an extremely difficult task - he tells Harry, in OotP that the flaw of the plan - his plan, is that he cares about Harry too much, he says "what did I care about countless deaths in the future, as long as you, now, were safe and happy" (I paraphrase) and I think that although he did "manipulate" Harry, he did so with great reluctance as he cared for and loved Harry so much. He only told Harry his fate when he knew he could escape it no longer, so that Harry would not have to carry this burden all his life. And he only told Harry he was a horcrux, through Snape, at the last minute, so that Harry would not have to suffer with the agony of knowing (like Jesus did) for too long.

[gottaloveLupin]

[quote=amandam_xym;4682145]

Originally Posted by gottaloveLupin

This man cared for Harry and kept him safe and everything and trained him knewing very well that Harry was going to die. Until GOF, at least, when he finds out about the exchange of blood, he knew very well that Harry was a horcrux and had to die. How can you look a child in the eyes and knew that he is going to die and you are preparing him for that is beyond my imagination.
[QUOTE

Yes, but we also know that he found this an extremely difficult task - he tells Harry, in OotP that the flaw of the plan - his plan, is that he cares about Harry too much, he says "what did I care about countless deaths in the future, as long as you, now, were safe and happy" (I paraphrase) and I think that although he did "manipulate" Harry, he did so with great reluctance as he cared for and loved Harry so much. He only told Harry his fate when he knew he could escape it no longer, so that Harry would not have to carry this burden all his life. And he only told Harry he was a horcrux, through Snape, at the last minute, so that Harry would not have to suffer with the agony of knowing (like Jesus did) for too long.

Well, I fail to see how the fact the Dd cared for Harry is a good argument for Dd. Precisely, he cared for him and he prepared Harry to die. Which shows what a manipularor and cold hearted person DD was. I couldn't care less that DD cared for Harry.

If Dd was that smart, he should have looked for other ways to defeat Voldemort or to prevent him from coming to power again! Not to look a kid in the eye and protect him knowing fully well that all the things you are teaching him and all the love you are showing him are just instruments; you are just preparing him to accept his own death! You are making him to respect you, so that when the time comes, you just say jump and he will jump, you just say die and he will die.

No way is this aceptable for me! This is the way all leaders justify their wars and everything. It had to be done for the "greater good" Innocent people had to die for the "greater good". The purpose justifies the means? Why doesn't this sound ok to me?

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by gottaloveLupin

Well, I fail to see how the fact the Dd cared for Harry is a good argument for Dd. Precisely, he cared for him and he prepared Harry to die. Which shows what a manipularor and cold hearted person DD was. I couldn't care less that DD cared for Harry.

If Dd was that smart, he should have looked for other ways to defeat Voldemort or to prevent him from coming to power again! Not to look a kid in the eye and protect him knowing fully well that all the things you are teaching him and all the love you are showing him are just instruments; you are just preparing him to accept his own death! You are making him to respect you, so that when the time comes, you just say jump and he will jump, you just say die and he will die.

No way is this aceptable for me! This is the way all leaders justify their wars and everything. It had to be done for the "greater good" Innocent people had to die for the "greater good". The purpose justifies the means? Why doesn't this sound ok to me?

At the end of GoF, Harry tells Dumbledore that Voldemort had taken Harry's blood to form his new body. The scene where we see Dumbledore telling Snape that Harry had to die was between OotP and HBP. Dumbledore had already guessed that when Voldemort had tried to kill Harry, Harry would survive, because he shared the same blood with Voldemort, so as long as Voldemort was alive, Harry would be alive too, it was almost as if Voldemort was Harry's horcrux. Harry couldn't die as long as Voldemort was still alive. In GoF Dumbledore had his "gleam of triumph" when he realized this, he knew that Harry had won. However he still wanted Harry to think he was sacrificing himself when he went into the final confrontation with Voldemort. Harry needed to think he was going to die in order for him to fully understand everything.

[amandam_xym]

Originally Posted by gottaloveLupin

Well, I fail to see how the fact the Dd cared for Harry is a good argument for Dd. Precisely, he cared for him and he prepared Harry to die. Which shows what a manipularor and cold hearted person DD was. I couldn't care less that DD cared for Harry.

If Dd was that smart, he should have looked for other ways to defeat Voldemort or to prevent him from coming to power again! Not to look a kid in the eye and protect him knowing fully well that all the things you are teaching him and all the love you are showing him are just instruments; you are just preparing him to accept his own death! You are making him to respect you, so that when the time comes, you just say jump and he will jump, you just say die and he will die.

No way is this aceptable for me! This is the way all leaders justify their wars and everything. It had to be done for the "greater good" Innocent people had to die for the "greater good". The purpose justifies the means? Why doesn't this sound ok to me?

But Dumbledore knew that Harry wouldn't really die - he would be Master of Death through the Hallows - don't lets forget that Dd gave Harry the resurrection stone as well - so Dd was still trying to preserve this boy that he had come to care so deeply for. Dd knew that Harry was pure, and worthy of the Hallows, and so he made sure that not only did Harry know enough about destroying the horcruxes, he knew about the Hallows as well (through the Tales of Beedle the Bard). If Dd really was a cold-hearted manipulator, he would only have given Harry the knowledge to destroy the horcruxes, and not the Hallows, which would enable Harry to walk to his death without fear, and also return from it.
Furthermore, I think that it makes all the difference that Dd cared for Harry - it shows that he, like all of us, is human. He was essentially a general in a terrible war, and I think the fact that he found it so hard to give such a tremendous burden to Harry - one of his "men" shows how different he is to your average general - he was restricted by his own love and compassion - he could not bear to burden Harry, at eleven, with the horrific truth, even though it ay have made more "tactical sense."

just a quick note...sorry, Lord Godric, if you're about, would you mind editing your post...just it looks as though I posted that, when in fact it was gottaloveLupin...and I don't really want to be credited with someone else's post...especially when our opinions are quite different.

just a quick note - sorry, Lord Godric, if you're about, would you mind editing your post? Just it looks as though I posted that, when in fact it was gottaloveLupin...and I don't really want to be credited with someone else's post, especially when our opinions are quite different.

just a quick note - sorry, Lord Godric, if you're about, would you mind editing your post? Just it looks as though I posted that, when in fact it was gottaloveLupin...and I don't really want to be credited with someone else's post, especially when our opinions are quite different.

[LoloPotter]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

In my opinion, Dumbledore was the wisest person ever. Manipulation? Good, that's what you NEED to face someone like Voldemort. If Dumbledore had been blase about his plans, would they have worked? No!

Hell, even sociopaths become the greatest business leaders. What's wrong with a little manipulation.

PS: I'm not arguing that Dumbledore is a sociopath.

i completely agree. yes dumbledore was manipulative but what were his other options? yes he could have trusted certain people but that could have backfired (lily/james & pettigrew)

i think he handled the situation well, he could have done it better but he was in a tough situation and did what he thought was for the best. if he had told harry that he was a horcrux and would most likely have to die i think harry would have gone to his death but imagine trying to get rid of all the horcruxes, face DEs, etc, knowing that you won't survive. dumbledore just wanted to protect harry until the time he really needed to know.
i think dumbledore was a genius although he was flawed, no one's perfect and he changed as a person because of the mistakes he made.

[cabepfir]

Originally Posted by rhianne

Yes, I agree.
Dumbledore knew that he owned the Elder Wand and intended Snape to have it after Snape had "killed" him. This condemned Snape to death as Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was seeking the wand and that he would figure out that Snape was the wands owner.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here? But it sounds as if Dumbledore sacrificed Snape in a way...

That's exactly my point of view about the matter.

I had never reflected very much about DD before DH, and his death shocked me because Snape being the killer and not DD being the victim. But now I can see Dumbledore as a manipulator. He did it all to defeat Voldemort and to save the world, yes, but I think he was still looking after "the greater good". As Aberforth says, "secrets and lies, secrets and lies" (quoting by heart, don't have the book here). But Harry chooses to break Dumbledore's web when he tells the DA about the diadem.

[amandam_xym]

I just can't see Dumbledore as a manipulator...I know, "secrets and lies" but the people who help Dumbledore always have the choice - like the prophecy, all is not always as it seems - they choose to follow him, and, ultimatley make important decisions on their own, and this is "the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew - and so do I, thought Harry. with a rush of pride, and so did my parents - that there was all *** difference in the world."

I think that this passage prepares us for the revalations about Dd in DH - JKR means for us to understand this difference, and hence understand what Dd has done, and how he is still a hero, and is all the more great for having human flaws.

[eternitygoddess]

If Harry dies, the world gets saved.

I don't see it as a bad exchange.