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Was Harry's memory modified?



 
 
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Old July 25th, 2007, 4:21 am
matwizard  Undisclosed.gif matwizard is offline
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Was Harry's memory modified?

The last time I posted this here, it was nothing but criticism. I hope people are more open minded. So bare with me as I ask why, and answer because he doesn’t remember.

Why does Harry not think of Priori Incantatum, or for that matter speaking to his parents for the first time for the last two books? Because he doesn't remember, somebody, likely Dumbledore altered his memory of that night.

Why do we hear Harry worrying all month about the Ministry hearing, his insides squirming at the thought of his friends going back without him? But he doesn't give a second (or first) thought about the moment he must eventually face the Hoggwarts students, and tell them Cedric was killed by a man whose life Harry saved one year before, after Harry brought him into a trap meant for him? Because he doesn't remember.

Harry felt responsible for Cedric's death at the end of GOF. Both for saving Wormtail's life in POA, and telling Cedric, "We'll take the cup together." It has not crossed his mind once in the last two years. Why is he not drowning in fear that Cho Chang will want answers to how and why her boyfriend died? Because something happened to Harry's memories of that night.

Remember the last time you were faced with a difficult task. Like telling someone you destroyed their favorite toy, cd, or car window. Remember, in your head, the 50 different ways you told them, and the 50 different ways they reacted to you destroying their favorite toy, cd, or car window.

Harry went through this while waiting for the hearing, he went through none of this while getting ready to go back to Hoggwarts. When Harry faces Cho on the train with all the stinks sap covering him, and the next day with Hermione and Ron at his sides, why does a brick not drop into his stomach at the thought that this is the moment he'll have to tell her everything? Because he doesn't remember. And Ron must know Harry hasn't told her what happened. What kind of help would he be giving him? "You support the Tornadoes? For how long, since they've been winning?" Face facts, sensitivity is not Ron's middle name. "You'd think a bit of kissing would cheer that girl up, you want someone more cheerful matey." make that first, middle, or last name. "Women, they can be so emotional sometimes." But would he be like that if he knew Harry had the difficult task of telling Cho what happened to Cedric? "We didn't mean it like that we weren't having a go at Diggory. You got the wrong end of-" Ron isn't that bad. And what about Hermione-can't-keep-her-nose-out-of-it-to-save-her-life-Granger. Please, she would have been lecturing Harry up and down the halls of Hoggwarts. "You've got to tell her the truth sooner or later Harry. It will just get worse if you put this off." We never hear this because Harry never told them because he doesn't remember.

Harry would have avoided Cho by CASTLE SECTIONS if he was still suffering from guilt over Cedric. The same way they avoided each other throughout HBP, the way Harry avoided the Weasleys when he felt responsible for Arthur’s attack, the way he avoided everyone those few days after the graveyard and after the Ministry battle, the way Slughorn avoided him when he knew Harry wanted the Horcruex story, and the way Hagrig avoided everyone when his deep dark secret came out.

And Harry never would have taught Cedric’s closest friends DADA and not worry their going to demand answers he's been denying them? While he’s waiting in the Hogg’s Head’ Why isn’t he more worried that the people coming are going to question his about Cedric? When two dozen students walk in, including Cho Chang and half of Hufflepuff, why aren’t stones all over Harry’s stomach at the thought “This is the moment I’ll have to tell them everything? Because he doesn’t remember.

What make’s me say Voldemort’s back? I saw him come back. But Dumbledore told you all this last year, and if you don’t believe him then you don’t believe me. And I won’t spend the day trying to convince anyone. “WHO ENTERED THAT GRAVEYARD, WHO SAW HIM RETURN? ME!” “They weren’t with you in the graveyard.” “YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT IT’S LIKE, ETHER OF YOU, YOU’VE NEVER HAD TO FACE HIM? KNOWING YOUR ABOUT A SECOND AWAY FROM BEING MURDERED OR TORTOURED, OR WATCHING YOUR FRIENDS DIE!” How does Harry consistently manage to skip over the echos of Cedric, Frank, Bertha, and his parents coming out of Voldemort’s wand time and time and time again? Because he doesn’t remember.

Harry’s top priority has always been his parents. He risked expulsion to find out if his dad was a good man or a bully, he risked expulsion their wordless faces in a mirror, his love of Quidditch and his fear of Dementors did not stop his desire to hear their voices, just before they died in his head. And he risked facing a hundred Dementors for the hope that he might see his father. But stops thinking about speaking face to face with them? Sends the next month looking for news on water skiing bungeries? NO WAY.

"Harry Potter sits in Privit Drive and thinks tirelessly about that night. His parents coming out of the wand, Cedric appearing, looking so solid and saying words of encouragement like “Hold on Harry.” Seeing him die, hearing him ask to be returned to his parents. Hearing his parents talk to him for the first time. He thinks about all of this and wonders can he see his parents again? And how am I going to explain this to everyone, to Cho, to Cedric’s friends, to everyone waiting to hear what happened?" Why were these words not in the beginning pages of the book? Because he doesn’t remember.


There’s still no explanation as to why the story of how Harry went into Moodey’s office to get the Marader’s map back has not been told anywhere except on J.K. website? She simply says there was no room for it in the books. No room in the 870 pages of the most convoluted drawn out book you wrote? No room in the 652 pages of the most uneventful book of the series? (H.B.P. officially made the jump from kids action adventure, to full teenage love drama) There was plenty of room to answer questions about that map, but that would mean telling the story of the “scattered memories.” And Harry just doesn’t remember.

"I've used Expelliarmus against him, it saved my life last June." How did you come this close to the subject, and not think "This is it, their going to push until I tell them about the wands connecting"? Because you don't remember.

Why is Harry never afraid he will have to tell Cho Cedric died at the hands of Wormtail, a man who's life Harry saved, or that it was his idea to take the cup together, bringing him into that trap? Why was he relieved that she did not hate him for being alive? "She had called him brave, she did not hate him for being alive when Cedric was dead." How can she Harry? You haven't told her Wormtail, the man you saved cast the curse. Or that you brought Cedric into that trap. This is not the thoughts of someone suffering from guilt.

The mistletoe scene; Harry’s hoping for a Merry Christmas from Cho, he gets her in tears wondering if Cedric would be alive if he knew the spells they were learning. And instead of a brick dropping into his stomach at the thought this is the moment he’ll have to tell her everything, the knowledge she wants to talk about Cedric makes Harry’s heart sink down to his navel and he simply says, “He did know these spells. He was really good at them, but if Voldemort wants to kill you, you don’t stand a chance.” Voldemort didn’t want to kill Cedric, he wanted to kill you Harry. Wormtail killed him on Voldemorts orders simply because he was there, “the spare.” You have by all means lied to her with this statement. Where is the feeling of dread in the pit of your stomach at the misleading information you are so easily giving? Why do you not feel guilt about this later? But before fans can think of this, Cho's smiling and pointing to the mistletoe and it's easy to think such thoughts would vanish from Harry's brain.
But later that night, lying awake, thinking about the kiss, wondering if you should ask her on a date do any knots tie up your stomach at all the things Cho still doesn't know? No, why? Because you don't remember what Cho doesn't know. But again no one has time to think this because no peace for Harry in that book, he's got to go save Mr Weasley from a big old snake.

"Is this the moment I'm going to have to tell Cho everything, in front of all these lip-locked students?" Harry must have known he'd have to tell Cho everything sooner or later, but would he let it come to that? On his Valentine Day date surrounded by a dozen couples? But that thought never crosses his mind. "Did Cedric mention me before he died?" Cho asked. "No there was no time." said Harry, things were going disastrously wrong."
It sounds more and more like Harry was never afraid he'd ever have to tell Cho Cedric was killed by Wormtail, and then came out of Voldemors's wand to aid him. Because he doesn't remember.

Why do we not see the Quibble Article, or hear Rita Skeeter go “Your parents came out of You Know Who’s wand? And Cedric Diggory? And they helped you escape? And this happened because your wand and his came from Dumbledore’s pet phoenix? You want me to put a story like that into this toe rag of an article, and hope the public doesn’t escort the two of us strait to St Mungo’s?” That would have been a welcomed edition to that dragged out story.
If Harry and Cho's date had not ended in that debacle through Harry's bad choice of words, Cho would have come with him to the Three Broomsticks, and he would have found himself telling Rita the whole story right in front of her. Why wasn't Harry angry about this? Why didn't he yell at Hermione for ambushing him with this idea? Why didn't Hermione warn him what she was planning? "Why did she say "Bring Cho along if you must, but come this is important," instead of "What I have in mind could be painful for her, it involves Cedric, so warn her"? And why didn't Harry pull Cho aside and warn her about the article? Why after eight months of keeping it to himself, did he let Cho read about it all? Isn't he worried she'll be enraged as to why she wasn't told this ages ago? No, because he doesn't remember and never told that story.

"I'm not telling Cho what happened, she would hate me for life." "She's going to find out eventually, you don't think she'll hate you then?" "How do I tell her Cedric came out of Voldemort"s wand? How do I tell her Wormtail killed him after I brought him into that graveyard?" "How do you not?" "She'll hate me, she'll never speak to me again." "You're going on dates with her. You want to hope she never finds out?"
That's Harry arguing with himself, in case you forgot H.B.P. "Ginny or Ron. Ginny or Ron." "She's Ron's sister." "He's my best mate." "That'll make it worse." "If I talk to him first." "He'll hit you." "What if I don't care?" "He's your best mate.
Harry can argue with himself for months over Ginny or Ron, but never once over telling Cho about Cedric? Because he doesn't remember.


Why didn't Harry defend himself with Priori Incantatum at the D.O.M? Why didn't he ask Nearly Headless Nick about seeing his parents? Because he doesn't remember.
Why did Dumbledore fight so hard to keep Harry out of his duel with Voldemort at the D.O.M? Because he knows Harry doesn't remember Priori Incantatum.

In H.B.P, why has Ollivanders disappeared, possibly in hiding? Because he's the only person who can tell Voldemort the wands are brothers.

Page 490;Harry told Slughorn everything he remembered about his parents death. Including how his mother died to save him. Because he knew how Slughorn felt about his mother, and that could get him to open up about the Horcruex. If it's allready been told in the Quibble Article, then what happened in the graveyard is no longer a secret. and if Harry can talk so openly about the night his parents died to a drunk Professor Slughorn, then he should be able to talk about the graveyard. So why doesn't he tell Slughorn how he saw his mother that night? When Slughorn says "I think I caused great harm that day, I made a terrible mistake." Harry could say "I know how you feel, I caused great harm when I saved Peter Pettigrew's life three years ago." Harry could say all this to a drunk man who won't remember any of it later. But he didn't, because he doesn't remember.

If Frank Bryce is the 7th Horcruex victim, why did Dumbledore say "Voldemort killed an old man" when he told Harry about the snake being the last Horcruex? Because Harry isn't suppose to remember Frank Bryce.

I have not read the book yet, so this is not a spoiler of anything certain. But I’ve seen the movie, and as I thought they skipped over anything that would have Harry relive that night. They kept in important parts like Dudly mocking Harry’s nightmares with his “Dad mum come and help me,” which drives Harry to pull out his wand. He comes close to remembering in his dreams. But we see his nightmares, and he visits the graveyard, and we see Cedric Diggory, but still no spirits come out of a wand. The Occumecy lessons don’t uncover that memory either, (and I hope Snape lovers see how impossible he made it for Harry to learn). The battle at the D.O.M was intense, but Voldemort somehow knocked the wand out of Harry’s hand without magic, and when Dumbledore steped in he kept pushing Harry back as he fought Voldemort.
I repeat, this is not a spoiler. I have not even bought the book yet. I’ve posted this before here, I put this on scholastic before the book came out, that’s how determined I am to prove this point. So if you’ve read the book and know if this is true, DO NOT RESPOND. Anyone behind on the books, step on up.


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  #2  
Old July 25th, 2007, 7:41 pm
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Re: Why? Because he doesn't remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matwizard View Post
The last time I posted this here, it was nothing but criticism. I hope people are more open minded. So bare with me as I ask why, and answer because he doesn’t remember.

Why does Harry not think of Priori Incantatum, or for that matter speaking to his parents for the first time for the last two books? Because he doesn't remember, somebody, likely Dumbledore altered his memory of that night.
What scene are you talking exactly about? Where does Harry not remember that he talked to his parents as Priori Incantatem happend or mentioned that he can't remember anything?

Quote:
Why do we hear Harry worrying all month about the Ministry hearing, his insides squirming at the thought of his friends going back without him? But he doesn't give a second (or first) thought about the moment he must eventually face the Hoggwarts students, and tell them Cedric was killed by a man whose life Harry saved one year before, after Harry brought him into a trap meant for him? Because he doesn't remember.
He doesn't remember what? What happened at the Graveyard? Then I have to disagree. Harry very well remembered all of it and later also talked about it. He dreamed of the death of Cedric almost every night, but it took a while till it sank in. He thought about his friends and whether he will see them again, because those are the most important people to him. He didn't cared about the others.

Quote:
Harry felt responsible for Cedric's death at the end of GOF. Both for saving Wormtail's life in POA, and telling Cedric, "We'll take the cup together." It has not crossed his mind once in the last two years. Why is he not drowning in fear that Cho Chang will want answers to how and why her boyfriend died? Because something happened to Harry's memories of that night.
But Cho asked for answers and also got them in OotP.
Quote:
Harry would have avoided Cho by CASTLE SECTIONS if he was still suffering from guilt over Cedric. The same way they avoided each other throughout HBP, the way Harry avoided the Weasleys when he felt responsible for Arthur’s attack, the way he avoided everyone those few days after the graveyard and after the Ministry battle, the way Slughorn avoided him when he knew Harry wanted the Horcruex story, and the way Hagrig avoided everyone when his deep dark secret came out.
He did not avoid Cho, like said it was her responsibility to ask for answers and not Harry's. When Cho wasn't interested in hearing the truth, then it's not Harry's fault nor does it mean that his memory was altered.

Quote:
And Harry never would have taught Cedric’s closest friends DADA and not worry their going to demand answers he's been denying them? While he’s waiting in the Hogg’s Head’ Why isn’t he more worried that the people coming are going to question his about Cedric? When two dozen students walk in, including Cho Chang and half of Hufflepuff, why aren’t stones all over Harry’s stomach at the thought “This is the moment I’ll have to tell them everything? Because he doesn’t remember.
Almost all people believed in the lies the Ministry told them about Cedric's death, that it was an accident. Hardly anybody believed that Voldemort is really back. They were satisfied with the answers they got from other sources.

Why should Harry stand up and preach that Voldemort is back and that he killed Cedric, when nobody believes him anyway?

Quote:
Harry’s top priority has always been his parents. He risked expulsion to find out if his dad was a good man or a bully, he risked expulsion their wordless faces in a mirror, his love of Quidditch and his fear of Dementors did not stop his desire to hear their voices, just before they died in his head. And he risked facing a hundred Dementors for the hope that he might see his father. But stops thinking about speaking face to face with them? Sends the next month looking for news on water skiing bungeries? NO WAY.
When did he had the possibility to talk face to face to them without being disturbed or in danger.

The only time they talked to him was during Priori Incatatem, but Priori Incatatem only works when Voldemort and he cast spells at eachother, because their wands are brother wands. He can't go to Voldemort and ask him to do it again, so that he can talk to his parents again.

Quote:
"Harry Potter sits in Privit Drive and thinks tirelessly about that night. His parents coming out of the wand, Cedric appearing, looking so solid and saying words of encouragement like “Hold on Harry.” Seeing him die, hearing him ask to be returned to his parents. Hearing his parents talk to him for the first time. He thinks about all of this and wonders can he see his parents again? And how am I going to explain this to everyone, to Cho, to Cedric’s friends, to everyone waiting to hear what happened?" Why were these words not in the beginning pages of the book? Because he doesn’t remember.
Dumbledore told them all the truth of Cedric death at the end of the term and nobody believed him, so why should he tell them again?

Quote:
There’s still no explanation as to why the story of how Harry went into Moodey’s office to get the Marader’s map back has not been told anywhere except on J.K. website? She simply says there was no room for it in the books. No room in the 870 pages of the most convoluted drawn out book you wrote? No room in the 652 pages of the most uneventful book of the series? (H.B.P. officially made the jump from kids action adventure, to full teenage love drama) There was plenty of room to answer questions about that map, but that would mean telling the story of the “scattered memories.” And Harry just doesn’t remember.
The story how he got the map back is not important for the plot.

And I don't get what the map has to do with your theory? Not every missing detail means that his memory was altered.

Quote:
Why is Harry never afraid he will have to tell Cho Cedric died at the hands of Wormtail, a man who's life Harry saved, or that it was his idea to take the cup together, bringing him into that trap? Why was he relieved that she did not hate him for being alive? "She had called him brave, she did not hate him for being alive when Cedric was dead." How can she Harry? You haven't told her Wormtail, the man you saved cast the curse. Or that you brought Cedric into that trap. This is not the thoughts of someone suffering from guilt.
It was not Harry's fault that Cedric died. Nobody knew what would happen when they touched the cup in the maze.

Quote:
Why didn't Harry defend himself with Priori Incantatum at the D.O.M? Why didn't he ask Nearly Headless Nick about seeing his parents? Because he doesn't remember.
Because you can't force Priori Incantatem on the stage, it just happens.
How should be Nick able to get his parents to him?

Quote:
In H.B.P, why has Ollivanders disappeared, possibly in hiding? Because he's the only person who can tell Voldemort the wands are brothers.
Good thought, that might be possible.

Quote:
If Frank Bryce is the 7th Horcruex victim, why did Dumbledore say "Voldemort killed an old man" when he told Harry about the snake being the last Horcruex? Because Harry isn't suppose to remember Frank Bryce.
There are only 6 victims, beside that Dumbledore didn't know that Harry saw the scene and knows Frank by name. So it's easy explained why Dumbledore just said "old man", because he though that "Frank Bryce" is an empty name for Harry.

------------------

After all that. Why should Dumbledore remove his memory? What is the sense of it?


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  #3  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 6:31 am
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Matwizard said: The last time I posted this here, it was nothing but criticism. I hope people are more open minded. So bare with me as I ask why, and answer because he doesn’t remember.

Matwizard: Why does Harry not think of Priori Incantatum, or for that matter speaking to his parents for the first time for the last two books? Because he doesn't remember, somebody, likely Dumbledore altered his memory of that night.
--Why would Dumbledore do that? And in DH he does remember the PI experience. I don't know that it's something he'd think of regularly except when he was preparing to face Dumbledore. I think he also probably thinks of his parents often; JKR doesn't write every time that happens because it would get old.

Matwizard: Why do we hear Harry worrying all month about the Ministry hearing, his insides squirming at the thought of his friends going back without him? But he doesn't give a second (or first) thought about the moment he must eventually face the Hoggwarts students, and tell them Cedric was killed by a man whose life Harry saved one year before, after Harry brought him into a trap meant for him? Because he doesn't remember.

--His friends already know about Cedric's death, because Dumbledore told them at the end-of-year banquet (plus many of them were there when Harry and Cedric's body returned from the graveyard). As I recall, he never mentions that Pettigrew killed Cedric (although that may have come out in his interview with the Quibbler in Order; we don't actually see that). But he clearly does remember: in "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor," OotP, when Hermione asks him about teaching DADA, he says "you two sit there acting like I'm a clever little boy to be standing here, alive, like Diggory was stupid, like he messed up--you just don't get it, that could just as easily have been me, it would have been if Voldemort hadn't needed me--"

Matwizard: Harry felt responsible for Cedric's death at the end of GOF. Both for saving Wormtail's life in POA, and telling Cedric, "We'll take the cup together." It has not crossed his mind once in the last two years. Why is he not drowning in fear that Cho Chang will want answers to how and why her boyfriend died? Because something happened to Harry's memories of that night.

--He has nightmares about it; Dudley teases him at the beginning of OotP and Harry knows what he's talking about--he doesn't ask who Cedric is. He knows that Cedric's death isn't his fault. He had no way of knowing what would happen when they touched that Cup. No one would blame him for Cedric's death because of that.

Matwizard: Remember the last time you were faced with a difficult task. Like telling someone you destroyed their favorite toy, cd, or car window. Remember, in your head, the 50 different ways you told them, and the 50 different ways they reacted to you destroying their favorite toy, cd, or car window.

Harry went through this while waiting for the hearing, he went through none of this while getting ready to go back to Hoggwarts. When Harry faces Cho on the train with all the stinks sap covering him, and the next day with Hermione and Ron at his sides, why does a brick not drop into his stomach at the thought that this is the moment he'll have to tell her everything? Because he doesn't remember. And Ron must know Harry hasn't told her what happened. What kind of help would he be giving him? "You support the Tornadoes? For how long, since they've been winning?" Face facts, sensitivity is not Ron's middle name. "You'd think a bit of kissing would cheer that girl up, you want someone more cheerful matey." make that first, middle, or last name. "Women, they can be so emotional sometimes." But would he be like that if he knew Harry had the difficult task of telling Cho what happened to Cedric? "We didn't mean it like that we weren't having a go at Diggory. You got the wrong end of-" Ron isn't that bad. And what about Hermione-can't-keep-her-nose-out-of-it-to-save-her-life-Granger. Please, she would have been lecturing Harry up and down the halls of Hoggwarts. "You've got to tell her the truth sooner or later Harry. It will just get worse if you put this off." We never hear this because Harry never told them because he doesn't remember.

--He does remember. In "Professor Umbridge," OotP, when Umbridge says there's no need for the students to learn DADA, Harry says "So, according to you, Cedric Diggory dropped dead of his own accord, did he"? She says it was a tragic accident. "It was murder," said Harry. "Voldemort killed him, and you know it.
Cho asks him about Cedric on their date at Mme Puddifoot's in OotP; she wants to know if Cedric had time to say anything about her. He tells her no, there was no time for that, and he's right.

Matwizard: Harry would have avoided Cho by CASTLE SECTIONS if he was still suffering from guilt over Cedric. The same way they avoided each other throughout HBP, the way Harry avoided the Weasleys when he felt responsible for Arthur’s attack, the way he avoided everyone those few days after the graveyard and after the Ministry battle, the way Slughorn avoided him when he knew Harry wanted the Horcruex story, and the way Hagrig avoided everyone when his deep dark secret came out.
--Harry doesn't feel guilty about Cedric's death; he has no reason to. He didn't kill him--and he himself was almost killed shortly after Cedric was. He managed to get his body to bring back even though he was being chased through the graveyard by V and the DEs; I think he did quite well.
And Harry never would have taught Cedric’s closest friends DADA and not worry their going to demand answers he's been denying them? While he’s waiting in the Hogg’s Head’ Why isn’t he more worried that the people coming are going to question his about Cedric? When two dozen students walk in, including Cho Chang and half of Hufflepuff, why aren’t stones all over Harry’s stomach at the thought “This is the moment I’ll have to tell them everything? Because he doesn’t remember.

--He does remember, as I've clearly shown. He doesn't feel guilty about it, though, and he shouldn't. No one except Cho actually ever asks him about it. There is a certain reticence in the books about asking questions in general. Harry meets his father's two best friends and doesn't really ask them anything about James until after he sees Snape's Worst Memory. He never asks them, or Dumbledore, or McG, or Slughorn, all of whom knew Lily, anything about her. Maybe Americans (like me) are just nosier.

What make’s me say Voldemort’s back? I saw him come back. But Dumbledore told you all this last year, and if you don’t believe him then you don’t believe me. And I won’t spend the day trying to convince anyone. “WHO ENTERED THAT GRAVEYARD, WHO SAW HIM RETURN? ME!” “They weren’t with you in the graveyard.” “YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT IT’S LIKE, ETHER OF YOU, YOU’VE NEVER HAD TO FACE HIM? KNOWING YOUR ABOUT A SECOND AWAY FROM BEING MURDERED OR TORTOURED, OR WATCHING YOUR FRIENDS DIE!” How does Harry consistently manage to skip over the echos of Cedric, Frank, Bertha, and his parents coming out of Voldemort’s wand time and time and time again? Because he doesn’t remember.

--he mentions Cedric's death three lines after the last line you quote.

Matwizard: Harry’s top priority has always been his parents. He risked expulsion to find out if his dad was a good man or a bully, he risked expulsion their wordless faces in a mirror, his love of Quidditch and his fear of Dementors did not stop his desire to hear their voices, just before they died in his head. And he risked facing a hundred Dementors for the hope that he might see his father. But stops thinking about speaking face to face with them? Sends the next month looking for news on water skiing bungeries? NO WAY.

--We don't actually hear Harry's thoughts all that often. I wouldn't take that to mean that he doesn't think about them or about the PI experience (which, in DH, he clearly remembers).

Matwizard: "Harry Potter sits in Privit Drive and thinks tirelessly about that night. His parents coming out of the wand, Cedric appearing, looking so solid and saying words of encouragement like “Hold on Harry.” Seeing him die, hearing him ask to be returned to his parents. Hearing his parents talk to him for the first time. He thinks about all of this and wonders can he see his parents again? And how am I going to explain this to everyone, to Cho, to Cedric’s friends, to everyone waiting to hear what happened?" Why were these words not in the beginning pages of the book? Because he doesn’t remember.

--Because it's a more reticent society. I don't remember anyone but Barty Jr., Dumbledore, and Cho asking him about it.


Matwizard: There’s still no explanation as to why the story of how Harry went into Moodey’s office to get the Marader’s map back has not been told anywhere except on J.K. website? She simply says there was no room for it in the books. No room in the 870 pages of the most convoluted drawn out book you wrote? No room in the 652 pages of the most uneventful book of the series? (H.B.P. officially made the jump from kids action adventure, to full teenage love drama) There was plenty of room to answer questions about that map, but that would mean telling the story of the “scattered memories.” And Harry just doesn’t remember.

--I don't understand this at all. If you mean that JKR tried to keep this from us, I don't think she'd've put it on her website.

Matwizard: "I've used Expelliarmus against him, it saved my life last June." How did you come this close to the subject, and not think "This is it, their going to push until I tell them about the wands connecting"? Because you don't remember.

--Why mention the PI here? He's teaching a DADA class. They're not going to experience PI if they duel Voldemort; they don't have brother wands with him.

Matwizard: Why is Harry never afraid he will have to tell Cho Cedric died at the hands of Wormtail, a man who's life Harry saved, or that it was his idea to take the cup together, bringing him into that trap? Why was he relieved that she did not hate him for being alive? "She had called him brave, she did not hate him for being alive when Cedric was dead." How can she Harry? You haven't told her Wormtail, the man you saved cast the curse. Or that you brought Cedric into that trap. This is not the thoughts of someone suffering from guilt.

--Why are you asking this question again?

Matwizard: The mistletoe scene; Harry’s hoping for a Merry Christmas from Cho, he gets her in tears wondering if Cedric would be alive if he knew the spells they were learning. And instead of a brick dropping into his stomach at the thought this is the moment he’ll have to tell her everything, the knowledge she wants to talk about Cedric makes Harry’s heart sink down to his navel and he simply says, “He did know these spells. He was really good at them, but if Voldemort wants to kill you, you don’t stand a chance.” Voldemort didn’t want to kill Cedric, he wanted to kill you Harry. Wormtail killed him on Voldemorts orders simply because he was there, “the spare.” You have by all means lied to her with this statement. Where is the feeling of dread in the pit of your stomach at the misleading information you are so easily giving? Why do you not feel guilt about this later? But before fans can think of this, Cho's smiling and pointing to the mistletoe and it's easy to think such thoughts would vanish from Harry's brain.

--It's not misleading info. Voldemort wanted "the spare" killed. He didn't know it was Cedric, but he didn't want an extra kid around.

Matwizard: But later that night, lying awake, thinking about the kiss, wondering if you should ask her on a date do any knots tie up your stomach at all the things Cho still doesn't know? No, why? Because you don't remember what Cho doesn't know. But again no one has time to think this because no peace for Harry in that book, he's got to go save Mr Weasley from a big old snake.

--Why should he answer questions Cho never asks? He answers the ones she does ask.

matwizard: "Is this the moment I'm going to have to tell Cho everything, in front of all these lip-locked students?" Harry must have known he'd have to tell Cho everything sooner or later, but would he let it come to that? On his Valentine Day date surrounded by a dozen couples? But that thought never crosses his mind. "Did Cedric mention me before he died?" Cho asked. "No there was no time." said Harry, things were going disastrously wrong."
It sounds more and more like Harry was never afraid he'd ever have to tell Cho Cedric was killed by Wormtail, and then came out of Voldemors's wand to aid him. Because he doesn't remember.

--No. She doesn't ask for more details.

matwizard: Why do we not see the Quibble Article, or hear Rita Skeeter go “Your parents came out of You Know Who’s wand? And Cedric Diggory? And they helped you escape? And this happened because your wand and his came from Dumbledore’s pet phoenix? You want me to put a story like that into this toe rag of an article, and hope the public doesn’t escort the two of us strait to St Mungo’s?” That would have been a welcomed edition to that dragged out story.

Matwizard: If Harry and Cho's date had not ended in that debacle through Harry's bad choice of words, Cho would have come with him to the Three Broomsticks, and he would have found himself telling Rita the whole story right in front of her. Why wasn't Harry angry about this? Why didn't he yell at Hermione for ambushing him with this idea? Why didn't Hermione warn him what she was planning? "Why did she say "Bring Cho along if you must, but come this is important," instead of "What I have in mind could be painful for her, it involves Cedric, so warn her"? And why didn't Harry pull Cho aside and warn her about the article? Why after eight months of keeping it to himself, did he let Cho read about it all? Isn't he worried she'll be enraged as to why she wasn't told this ages ago? No, because he doesn't remember and never told that story.

--He told the story because he wanted everyone to know Voldemort was back and how dangerous he was.

Matwizard: "I'm not telling Cho what happened, she would hate me for life." "She's going to find out eventually, you don't think she'll hate you then?" "How do I tell her Cedric came out of Voldemort"s wand? How do I tell her Wormtail killed him after I brought him into that graveyard?" "How do you not?" "She'll hate me, she'll never speak to me again." "You're going on dates with her. You want to hope she never finds out?"
That's Harry arguing with himself, in case you forgot H.B.P. "Ginny or Ron. Ginny or Ron." "She's Ron's sister." "He's my best mate." "That'll make it worse." "If I talk to him first." "He'll hit you." "What if I don't care?" "He's your best mate.
Harry can argue with himself for months over Ginny or Ron, but never once over telling Cho about Cedric? Because he doesn't remember.

--Because he knows he's not guilty.

--Except for all the places I've already mentioned where he does.


Matwizard: Why didn't Harry defend himself with Priori Incantatum at the D.O.M? Why didn't he ask Nearly Headless Nick about seeing his parents? Because he doesn't remember.

--What would he ask NHN about the PI for? He already knows how that works. And at the DOM after just having seen Sirius die, he's in despair.

Matwizard: Why did Dumbledore fight so hard to keep Harry out of his duel with Voldemort at the D.O.M? Because he knows Harry doesn't remember Priori Incantatum.
--or because he does't want Harry to DIE.

Matwizard: In H.B.P, why has Ollivanders disappeared, possibly in hiding? Because he's the only person who can tell Voldemort the wands are brothers.
--Voldemort knows that.

Matwizard: Page 490;Harry told Slughorn everything he remembered about his parents death. Including how his mother died to save him. Because he knew how Slughorn felt about his mother, and that could get him to open up about the Horcruex. If it's allready been told in the Quibble Article, then what happened in the graveyard is no longer a secret. and if Harry can talk so openly about the night his parents died to a drunk Professor Slughorn, then he should be able to talk about the graveyard. So why doesn't he tell Slughorn how he saw his mother that night? When Slughorn says "I think I caused great harm that day, I made a terrible mistake." Harry could say "I know how you feel, I caused great harm when I saved Peter Pettigrew's life three years ago." Harry could say all this to a drunk man who won't remember any of it later. But he didn't, because he doesn't remember.

--Because the point of the conversation is to get Sluggy's real memory, which he does--not to reminisce about the dearly departed.

Matwizard: If Frank Bryce is the 7th Horcruex victim, why did Dumbledore say "Voldemort killed an old man" when he told Harry about the snake being the last Horcruex? Because Harry isn't suppose to remember Frank Bryce.



I have not read the book yet, so this is not a spoiler of anything certain. But I’ve seen the movie, and as I thought they skipped over anything that would have Harry relive that night. They kept in important parts like Dudly mocking Harry’s nightmares with his “Dad mum come and help me,” which drives Harry to pull out his wand. He comes close to remembering in his dreams. But we see his nightmares, and he visits the graveyard, and we see Cedric Diggory, but still no spirits come out of a wand. The Occumecy lessons don’t uncover that memory either, (and I hope Snape lovers see how impossible he made it for Harry to learn).

--The memory of Cedric does come up in Occlumency--p. 535, US hardback.

The battle at the D.O.M was intense, but Voldemort somehow knocked the wand out of Harry’s hand without magic, and when Dumbledore steped in he kept pushing Harry back as he fought Voldemort.
I repeat, this is not a spoiler. I have not even bought the book yet. I’ve posted this before here, I put this on scholastic before the book came out, that’s how determined I am to prove this point. So if you’ve read the book and know if this is true, DO NOT RESPOND. Anyone behind on the books, step on up.


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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.

Last edited by Lash Dresden; August 4th, 2007 at 5:47 am. Reason: Edited out spoiler
  #4  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 6:54 am
Nandra Nandra is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but... how do you explain all of his memories of the graveyard?
A couple examples: his dreams about Cedric and obvious touchiness about them; the new worst memory when he's attacked by dementors; his memory of Cedric during his Occlumency lesson with Snape; his interview with Rita Skeeter (obviously he had to have information, or it would never have convinced people).
There are more, but those are the first ones that came to mind.


  #5  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 7:01 am
notsure08  Undisclosed.gif notsure08 is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Harry stole the map from Moody's room it was obvious that he had.

Why would dumbledore modify Harry's memory? If he had we would have read about it in the books anyway



Last edited by gertiekeddle; August 2nd, 2007 at 10:48 am. Reason: edited out rude part
  #6  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 10:51 am
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

If you not agree with a theory please state your critiques constructive.

Forums Rule 2a.The goal of CoS Forums is to make sure everyone has a good time and can make friends. Obviously not everyone will agree with one another and we ask that you respect the opinions of others. Making sarcastic, or rude remarks directed at another member, or attacking others for holding views different to your own will not be tolerated. If you see this taking place, please report it to an Unspeakable.

Please be aware that warnings will be issued if you feel the need to attack an idea with rude or swear words.


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  #7  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 11:54 am
Ginny1984  Female.gif Ginny1984 is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Wind up?


  #8  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 2:41 pm
Tromos  Male.gif Tromos is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I won't go through the examples one by one since I find it very difficult to read such long posts, so I won't subject you to it either.

I would challenge that Dumbledore would ever do anything to Harry to ease his pain. I think a long life had taught Dumbledore one of the greatest lessons of life: There is no strength without pain and there is no growth without failure. Much of what Dumbledore put Harry through (or allowed him to endure) was, I believe, a way of forging Harry into a strong young man. To modify his memories to leave him blissfully ignorant would have sabotaged the development of Harry's character.

Since many of your examples seem to revolve around Cedric, I would suggest instead that, since this was the first death that Harry really saw (his parents don't count despite his flashbacks since he doesn't see the thestrals until OotP), his mind was suppressing the memory of Cedric at times in order to protect his sanity. When directly confronted with something (like Umbridge or Cho), he allows the pain to trauma to return, but otherwise he doesn't dwell on Cedric, lest he go mad. This would be consistent with the way people deal with severe life trauma
.


  #9  
Old August 3rd, 2007, 4:49 am
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

The first time he can remember seeing his parents move and smile is in the Mirror of Erised. And he is captivated by it until Dumbledore takes it away. I don't think we hear him think about the Mirror of Erised experience with his parents again. Does that mean his memory's been modified?


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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
  #10  
Old August 3rd, 2007, 5:43 am
AK_WDB  Male.gif AK_WDB is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

The fact that Harry saved Pettigrew's life directly led to Voldemort returning to power in the first place, which led to the deaths of not only Cedric, but also Sirius Black and Remus Lupin, the two men who were going to kill Pettigrew. The books cannot be a constant stream of description of Harry's guilt over this fact: that would be boring. However, he undoubtedly does think about it and feel guilty about it.


  #11  
Old August 3rd, 2007, 6:29 pm
Artemis_Black  Female.gif Artemis_Black is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I really think that the evidence that Harry's memories were modified are extremely slim. He remembers the graveyard, he accurately dreams about his parents' murder. Dumbledore has no reasonable motive for doing that, but neither does Voldemort. If Harry has one possible weakness, dementors are a huge contender. Yes, he can produce a powerful Patronus, but his memories of the graveyard and the end of OOTP could end up crippling him somewhat. It would seem to me that Harry's memories would serve his friends and his enemies better if they were intact.


  #12  
Old August 4th, 2007, 12:30 am
pc90  Male.gif pc90 is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

just because he doesnt think about it in the books doesnt mean his memory was modified.

it would be wierd for during the battle after dumbledore was killed for harry to just all of a sudden start thinking about cedric

[Staff edit]

it seems to me you are just a conspiracy theorist or somthing with no evidence to back up what you are trying to prove



Last edited by gertiekeddle; August 4th, 2007 at 10:02 am. Reason: no infos about DH please
  #13  
Old August 4th, 2007, 12:52 am
bryanweasley  Female.gif bryanweasley is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matwizard View Post
The last time I posted this here, it was nothing but criticism. I hope people are more open minded. So bare with me as I ask why, and answer because he doesn’t remember.
I hope it was constructive criticism. Not everyone will agree with what you have to say.

Quote:
Why do we hear Harry worrying all month about the Ministry hearing, his insides squirming at the thought of his friends going back without him? But he doesn't give a second (or first) thought about the moment he must eventually face the Hoggwarts students, and tell them Cedric was killed by a man whose life Harry saved one year before, after Harry brought him into a trap meant for him? Because he doesn't remember.
The Beginning, GoF"Cedric Diggory was murdered by Lord Voldemort...Harry Potter managed to escape Lord Voldemort," said Dumbledore. "He risked his own life to return Cedric's body to Hogwarts."
Cho has been told that Voldemort died at the hands of Lord Voldemort. Why would she want to know how he died? Voldemort was known to use the AK Curse. The horror of his return would keep her quiet.

Quote:
Harry felt responsible for Cedric's death at the end of GOF. Both for saving Wormtail's life in POA, and telling Cedric, "We'll take the cup together." It has not crossed his mind once in the last two years. Why is he not drowning in fear that Cho Chang will want answers to how and why her boyfriend died? Because something happened to Harry's memories of that night.
Dudley Demented, OotP"I heard you last night," said Dudley breathlessly. "Talking in your sleep. Moaning...Don't kill Cedric! Don't kill Cedric! Who's Cedric -- your boyfriend?"
Dudley goes on in this manner talking about Harry's parents saving him.

Quote:
There’s still no explanation as to why the story of how Harry went into Moodey’s office to get the Marader’s map back has not been told anywhere except on J.K. website? She simply says there was no room for it in the books. No room in the 870 pages of the most convoluted drawn out book you wrote? No room in the 652 pages of the most uneventful book of the series? (H.B.P. officially made the jump from kids action adventure, to full teenage love drama) There was plenty of room to answer questions about that map, but that would mean telling the story of the “scattered memories.” And Harry just doesn’t remember.
Ever thought of using your imagination to decide how they did it. Did the real Moody leave the school right after or stay till the end of the school year? Was the office clear or did the trio use their imagination to decide how to get past all Moody's contraptions. My guess is that he wanted nothing to do with Hogwarts after the treatment he had. Looked over by Madame Pomfrey and left as quickly as he could.

Quote:
"I've used Expelliarmus against him, it saved my life last June." How did you come this close to the subject, and not think "This is it, their going to push until I tell them about the wands connecting"? Because you don't remember.
Don't you think they respected him enough that he would tell his closest friends, if he needed to tell anyone else.

Quote:
The mistletoe scene; Harry’s hoping for a Merry Christmas from Cho, he gets her in tears wondering if Cedric would be alive if he knew the spells they were learning. And instead of a brick dropping into his stomach at the thought this is the moment he’ll have to tell her everything, the knowledge she wants to talk about Cedric makes Harry’s heart sink down to his navel and he simply says, “He did know these spells. He was really good at them, but if Voldemort wants to kill you, you don’t stand a chance.” Voldemort didn’t want to kill Cedric, he wanted to kill you Harry. Wormtail killed him on Voldemorts orders simply because he was there, “the spare.” You have by all means lied to her with this statement. Where is the feeling of dread in the pit of your stomach at the misleading information you are so easily giving? Why do you not feel guilt about this later? But before fans can think of this, Cho's smiling and pointing to the mistletoe and it's easy to think such thoughts would vanish from Harry's brain.
You contradict yourself. Harry didn't lie. Voldemort wanted Cedric dead because he was "the spare." It wasn't misleading. Yes, he wanted Harry dead, and yes Voldemort sent an AK Curse at him. If Harry didn't have the brother core of Voldemort's wand, he would have died too.

Quote:
On his Valentine Day date surrounded by a dozen couples? But that thought never crosses his mind. "Did Cedric mention me before he died?" Cho asked. "No there was no time." said Harry, things were going disastrously wrong."
It sounds more and more like Harry was never afraid he'd ever have to tell Cho Cedric was killed by Wormtail, and then came out of Voldemors's wand to aid him. Because he doesn't remember.
He remembers. Things did go disastrously wrong from the time they touched the Cup. Harry's scar was on fire and Cedric didn't know what to do against a AK Curse.

This is all for now.


  #14  
Old August 4th, 2007, 5:01 am
Kathrina  Female.gif Kathrina is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

These posts are very long and I'm sorry, but I didn't have the motivation to read them all. So, I will say that I do not believe that Harry's memory was altered. I think that if it had been, we would have read about it.

From what I have read, he seems to remember everything. The book is also mainly from Harry's point of view. It's always behind the scenes of Harry's mind. It would be hard to put something like that in the books and then have it all come out in DH that his memory was altered, especially when there are so many questions from the 6 books that have to be answered in DH.


Interesting theory, though.


  #15  
Old August 4th, 2007, 7:09 am
matwizard  Undisclosed.gif matwizard is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TENSHI
What scene are you talking exactly about? Where does Harry not remember that he talked to his parents as Priori Incantatem happend or mentioned that he can't remember anything?
Every time he thinks about that night and doesn’t talk or think about his parents or Priori Incantatum. Priori Incantatum has never been mentioned in the last two books. Harry’s one weapon against Voldemort and it’s never brought up as he prepares for the day they must fight to the death?
The whole point of a memory modification is the person not knowing they can’t remember something. Harry wouldn’t know if he doesn’t remember the graveyard,(and neither would we) if Dumbledore put a fake memory in it’s place.

Quote:
He doesn't remember what? What happened at the Graveyard? Then I have to disagree. Harry very well remembered all of it and later also talked about it. He dreamed of the death of Cedric almost every night, but it took a while till it sank in. He thought about his friends and whether he will see them again, because those are the most important people to him. He didn't cared about the others.
I disagree. Weather he cared or not about seeing the other students is not the point. He may have felt he owed it to Cedric and his parents to tell people what happened. He must have felt sooner or later he would have to tell people. But it never crossed his mind. Before the hearing, his mind kept coming back to thoughts about it. Afterwards he dreamed about Hoggwarts and Quidditch until he got back and saw how big an uphill battle he was in for.

Quote:
But Cho asked for answers and also got them in OotP.
He did not avoid Cho, like said it was her responsibility to ask for answers and not Harry's. When Cho wasn't interested in hearing the truth, then it's not Harry's fault nor does it mean that his memory was altered.
When, in the tea shop, within earshot of a dozen other couples? He was just trying to change the subject and Cho was trying to make him jealous. When the Quibble article came out that none of us got to read when so many other useless articles in that book dragged on and on? Maybe Harry was waiting for Cho to ask a direct question but the book never said anything like that. But not many people did ask questions.
I’m not convinced Cho didn’t have some knowledge of what happened in the maze already. “And that’s not to mention all the tasks he got through in the Triwizard Tournament, getting past dragons, merpeople and acromantulas and things.” (page 342) Somehow she knew Harry faced a giant spider. I’m also not convinced that Ernie Macmillan leader of the Harry’s the heir of Slitherin campaign, front of the line for a Potter stinks badge, so easily took his side on the death of Hufflepuff’s champion. (page 262) “I personally believe you one hundred percent. My family have always stood firm behind Dumbledore, and so do I.” I think they all know more then we think.

Quote:
Almost all people believed in the lies the Ministry told them about Cedric's death, that it was an accident. Hardly anybody believed that Voldemort is really back. They were satisfied with the answers they got from other sources.
Dumbledore told them all the truth of Cedric death at the end of the term and nobody believed him, so why should he tell them again?
They weren't satisfied with the answer that it was an accident. That's one of the things that made them doubt Umbridge, and they were always silently pushing for Harry to tell the story. The point is Harry must have felt people would want answers. In The Hog's Head two dozen of Cedric's closest friends walk in and it's clear their looking for Harry to tell the story. And neither before, during, or after the meeting did he worry about someday telling about how Cedric wound up in the graveyard, or about him coming out of Voldemort's wand with Harry's parents. Because he doesn't remember.

Dumbledore told them very little and has clearly taken steps to ensure people find out very little, and to our knowledge did not warn Harry about how much to tell people. The Order members did not warn Harry how much or how little to tell people, but simply made sure he knew as little as possible. But it is not hard to believe that Harry might feel Cedric and his parents would want him to tell everyone. Harry was not going to get people on his side by holding back. All those times Umbridge and the others drove him over the edge, he could easily have said it.

Quote:
It was not Harry's fault that Cedric died. Nobody knew what would happen when they touched the cup in the maze.
Doesn't matter, Harry blamed himself for Cedric's death at the end of GOF, just like he blamed himself for Sirius despite the fact that no one warned him about the plot to lure him to the D.O.M. (GOF. page 714 "It wasn't your fault, Harry," whispered Mrs. Weasley. "I told him to take the cup with me," said Harry. But that guilt disappeared by the next book.

Quote:
When did he had the possibility to talk face to face to them without being disturbed or in danger.

The only time they talked to him was during Priori Incatatem, but Priori Incatatem only works when Voldemort and he cast spells at eachother, because their wands are brother wands. He can't go to Voldemort and ask him to do it again, so that he can talk to his parents again.
Because you can't force Priori Incantatem on the stage, it just happens.
How should be Nick able to get his parents to him?
He had all summer to think about looking it up in books, or asking other people what they might know about Priori Incantatum. Hermione would have happily locked herself in the library until she looked up everything on the subject. There was no discussion at all about it.
When Vodemort attacked out of anger at the Ministry, Harry could have used anything from Disarming to Jelly-Legs, and (if he forced Voldemort's wand back again) it would happen again. But Harry didn't defend himself or think "I might see my parents again."
As for Nick, if Harry thought he could help him see Sirius again. Then after what happened the year before, doesn't it stand to reason that he would think Nick could find his parents.

Quote:
The story how he got the map back is not important for the plot.

And I don't get what the map has to do with your theory? Not every missing detail means that his memory was altered.
Not every missing detail, just ones that relate to those days after the graveyard that Harry refers to as “scattered memories.” The point is JK has carefully stated that she wished she had told the story of Harry getting the map back but there was no room for it,(possibly because she'd have to tell how Harry lost his memory.) Here’s one possibility I’ve been working on. “Harry faces Dumbledore and says, “Show me how to put a memory in your Pensieve Sir, please.” “Very well Harry,” says Dumbledore. “Place your wand tip to your temple like this,” he demonstrates, “and concentrate hard on that memory until you feel it come out of you.” Harry does so, Dumbledore holds out a bottle and Harry places the silvery strand into it. “Please bring Cedric’s parents and Cho Chang from Ravenclaw here Sir, I want to get the worst part of this over with.” Says Harry, very glumly. “I understand, and I will Harry,” says Dumbledore. But suddenly with a wave of his wand, Harry falls into a deep sleep, and Dumbledore grabs the bottle and hides it in his pocket. “I will Harry, but not today,” says Dumbledore sadly to Harry’s sleeping body. “The truth will be told one day I promise, but for now it must be silenced.” He points his wand at Harry and sadly says, “I’m sorry Harry, Obliviate.” Maybe he went for the map before or after this happened but it’s possible.

Quote:
There are only 6 victims, beside that Dumbledore didn't know that Harry saw the scene and knows Frank by name. So it's easy explained why Dumbledore just said "old man", because he though that "Frank Bryce" is an empty name for Harry.
Right about the 6 victims, wrong about the empty name. Harry saw him die in his dream. When Harry went to Dumbledore and told him about his vision in GOF, Dumbledore told him about disappearances related to Voldemort included Berta Jorkins, Crouch SR, and Frank Bryce, a muggle from Voldemort’s parents hometown, he always believed in using proper names. Harry recognized him when he came out of the wand after Cedric. Dumbledore could easily have said the old man you saw that night.

Quote:
After all that. Why should Dumbledore remove his memory? What is the sense of it?
The same reason he's been trying to keep those lines from the Prophecy out of Voldemort's hands. P.I. is Harry's only weapon against Voldemort and it's not hard to believe Dumbledore wants to keep Voldemort from learning it.
It's possible Harry erased his own memory of Cedric being killed by Wormtail, or Mrs. Weasley found out enough to decide she'd relieve some of Harry's guilt, or that Dumbledore thought if Harry remembered that, it would drive him to take revenge, or make it easier to remember P.I. witch would drive him to tell people too much. But what I've seen says his memory is gone.


  #16  
Old August 8th, 2007, 12:38 am
Grotfang  Male.gif Grotfang is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

There's a lot from canon here and it took a while to get through it all!

Interesting theory but I'm not sure where it has come from. Why would J.K. decide that her main character (the one what is named in the titles) should be incapable of remembering what has hapenned during pivotal/revealing moments in the books? There would be no value in this and I think that it would create a far smoother reading experience if you did not try too hard to find plot holes/conspiracies in the text. Sometimes it is possible to look so hard for something (especially in the HP books!) that you find it whether or not the author intended it. I don't believe that a memory problem for the main character would feature in J.K's plot intentions and I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with your theory.

However, it was fascinating to read the initial posts. You have clearly done a fair amount of research for this.


  #17  
Old August 13th, 2007, 4:08 am
elfears91  Undisclosed.gif elfears91 is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

It almost seems like you want every detail of every event placed in the books....even with the map JK rowling saying she couldn't fit it doesnt necesarrily mean she couldn't length wise it may have just not fit in context wise. Also scattered memories doesn't mean he can't remember it may mean that nothing really important happened in those days and harry was still recovering to really focus completely. as to the guilt of cedric's death disappearing...he has nightmares over the summer about it but we can't really expect him to dwell on cedric's death the entire book if harry were to let the guilt always be there then the books would be rather depressing...and not telling about what happened...sometimes people don't want to talk about it even with friends they want to move on and with Cho she seemed to want a recount of every second from right before they touched the cup till cedric died and harry probably didnt want to tell the details...people probably just found out what went on in the maze....i really hope that didn't sound rude if it does tell me where and I'll try to reword


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  #18  
Old August 13th, 2007, 3:19 pm
SeverusSnapeHBP  Female.gif SeverusSnapeHBP is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I doubt there's anything magical about it. There is something natural that can occur during traumatic events called "repressed memory". It's when someone's conscious memory has "holes" in it, but they remember certian details in dreams and in Harry's case; both dreams and Occlumency.

A long shot, but it's possible that this is what JK was doing. Whether or not she knows about "repressed memory" and if she had developed Harry's memory based off of this principle is anyone's guess. I wouldn't completely doubt it though, JK is an intelligent woman.

Either that or she just didn't feel the need for Harry to remember every detail about that night. I would be able to see her point if that was indeed her point, witnessing Cedric's death was the heaviest blow to Harry's psyche that night, and not the ghostly appearence of his parents or Priori Incantatem.


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I wipe it off the tile, the light is brighter this time, everything is 3D blasphemy.
My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up, this is not the way I picture me.
I can't control my shakes, how the hell did I get here? Something about this, so very wrong.
I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this. Is it a dream or a memory?

Last edited by SeverusSnapeHBP; August 13th, 2007 at 3:26 pm.
  #19  
Old August 14th, 2007, 7:52 pm
Fairygdmther  Female.gif Fairygdmther is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Harry could have had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) which would account for the dreams and 'selective' memories. This was an extremely difficult night for Harry, where much of what happened was out of his control, and he was merely an observer. Just seeing LV in his Vapormort form going into the cauldron must have been horrifying. Seeing Cedric killed right in front of him. Experiencing the cruciatus curse. Watching Wormtail cut his own hand off for LV - How many of us could have experienced all of this as an adult without being very traumatized? And after seeing all the DE's bow and scrape to LV, THEN he was expected to duel LV? Neither could have known that the wands were brothers and would act as they did. And in spite of all that, Harry overcame LV! And had the presence of mind to grab Cedric's body and summon the cup/portkey back to Hogwarts?

He should, by all rights have been in a coma for a week after this and had massive flashbacks and horrific dreams, from PTSD. Can we wonder why he didn't want to talk about it to so many different people?

My question, though, brings up something that didn't happen, but what you brought up. Why didn't DD help him by retrieving that memory for the pensieve? Surely that would have convinced Fudge that Harry wasn't making this story up. I suppose that the MoM had to be against DD and Hogwarts for the whole Umbridge scenario to occur.

FGM


  #20  
Old August 15th, 2007, 7:27 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I believe JKR has said that Pensieve memories can't be used as evidence because they can be doctored (as Slughorn's in HBP was).


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