Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed v2

[Jessica]

Let me be the first member of the Admitting-I-Could-Be-Wrong Club to admit how VERY WRONG I was. I was open to the idea of Snape and Lily having been friends but I wasn't in love with the idea on love on his part or with a pre-Hogwarts friendship. But that said, JKR clearly was.

So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? What do you think this friendship was based on? Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?


We've got a seperate thread on Snape himself here: Severus Snape: Character Analysis. This thread should confine itself solely to discussion of Snape/Lily and their relationship as it was revealed in Deathly Hallows.

AS THIS IS STILL A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND SENSITIVE TOPIC WE WOULD LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO PLEASE BE SENSITIVE TO OTHERS OPINIONS. THIS MEANS NO GLOATING AS WELL AS NO BASHING. CONSEQUENCES WILL BE SEVERE.

Additionally please read How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic and Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD

[Morgoth]

This is version 2 of the thread. Version 1 can be found here

Let me clarify some points I am making to this thread

• I will permit the discussion and involvement of James, the Marauders and their possible influence on the direction of Snape's & Lily's relationship.
• Do not use this thread to bash the characters. Constructive criticism is fine, but insulting or aggressive language against a character will only result in warnings. This is due to the Potter Schism and the many arguments that can and do occur when debate becomes aggressive. If I feel this experiment is not working, I will remove the James/Marauder's aspect from the thread.
• Engage the debate, keep personal attacks at bay and remember, the series has finished. There is no requirement to be absolutely right, just the pleasure now of sharing ideas.

I'm going to extract part of Jessica's post and number them into questions.

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?



These are the last four posts from version 1, as follows:

Elysia:    

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Originally Posted by Oryx I agree with Yoana, we don't have enough information, all we can do is speculate. Originally Posted by Elysia I don't agree with this argument. Why? Because the few scenes between Lily and Snape that we were allowed to see were hand-picked by JKR to show us the most important things about their connection! We, as avid fans, sometimes tend to treat the books like factual documents, instead of like the very deliberate artistic creations they are. If the scenes between Lily and Snape were cut from a television news program, we could all say, "But we don't know the whole story! We can't judge based on these few facts!" And we would be right. However, these scenes were deliberately revealed to us by the author of the book precisely in order to form our opinions of the situation. Yes, we can take these few scenes and draw conclusions, because that's why they were written into the books! And, from what we've been given, I think that Lily was indeed on the receiving end of the adulation of Snape without returning the emotion in kind. I'm not sure she exactly reveled in it, however. His continued downhill slither toward the Dark Arts made her uncomfortable, I think. There is a kindness in Lily that would have prevented her from rejecting Snape to his face, not wanting to heap more abuse on his already tortured soul, yet at the very same time her goodness would not permit her to ally herself romantically with someone that was leaning toward the Dark Arts. A conundrum of grand proportions, brought to you by the Deathly Hallows, Inc. - a division of Nargles, Ltd.

Mechouille:    

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Originally Posted by Daelin Ah, but that's my point. We finally see clear evidence of how Severus felt about Lily, but given their importance to Severus, don't you think that if Lily had ever shown appreciation and clear affection for Severus, that he would have shown those memories also? That they are not there, is to me a pretty big indicator. It also fits with what we know - Lily may have come to love Severus later, but as things went she never actually did (this from JKR). We also know that James was not quite what Lily thought he was, as she thought he had chenged when or before they started dating, but in fact he just hid his attacks on Severus. The scene in 'SWM' is also troubling; why is Lily almost-smiling when James torments Severus? Couldn't it be just that the 'arrogant toe-rag' is handsome, athletic, and charming? I've seen good-looking jocks get away with criminal behavior towards women in my time, so I have to say this must be considered as a possibility. The significance to the Severus-Lily relationship, is that one cannot help but wonder how the injustice of all that appeared to Severus. He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most. Originally Posted by Mechouille I know it is just speculation, but I totally agree with you.

missbrunettgirl:    

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The significance to the Severus-Lily relationship, is that one cannot help but wonder how the injustice of all that appeared to Severus. He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most. Originally Posted by missbrunettgirl Why I agree that Snape did act the way he did in part due to him knowing that James liked Lily and Lily might have in turn liked James at the time I don't agree with the fact that Lily is at fault for Snape's choices. She expressed that she was conserned about Snape when she pointed out his friends were a bad influence he changed the subject. He thought that it was all James's fault in a way for his and Lily's strained friendship. I also think that Lily really did try to point out his behavior the best she could but, if Snape did not realize that his BEST friend was a muggle-born and was what he was suposed to hate then the burden of his desision should be souly on him. JKR even said in a recent interview that if Lily had remained friends with him he still would have persued his descent into the dark arts. He was foolish in this and had he realized what impact his decisions would have on Lily in the future he probably would have changed his ways. And again I respect your opinion and you have some good points but you do also have to account for that Lily was sixteen and even an adult in her situation may not have know how to stage an appropriate intervention for Snape, but she did express her concerns which was all she could do at the time.

mshepnj:    

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Originally Posted by vickilind mshepnj, you are right about Snape not growing up, as far as we know, hearing about pure-blood and all that, however, despite the fact that he is half-blood, he hesitates when telling Lily it doesn't matter that she's muggleborn. This tells me he already has some skewed vision of the wizarding world. We also know, from previous books, that he already had a pretty good grounding in dark arts and jinxes, etc. So while his mom may not have been a big LV supporter, she was obviously teaching him so suspect things that he was using from almost day one. Originally Posted by mshepnj I imagine that Eileen Prince was a complicated woman. However, the fact is, she did marry a Muggle despite obviously being aware of blood prejudice. She may well have said something about how Muggle-born witches are perceived by some in the Wizarding world as different, but there isn't enough information to know her opinion about that. We get the impression that Severus knows there is a difference. Either he he told a lie (about the level of prejudice against Muggle-born) so she wouldn't worry, or HE doesn't see any difference, at least in her case, or both. Severus loved Lily despite everything he obviously learned about the dark arts, or didn't learn being neglected as a child. He saw Lily as an individual, not a member of a particular group. She did the same for him. He didn't like some of her Gryffindor hangers-on, she loathed Avery and Mulciber. Both had good reason and tried to "warn" the other, and they remain friends despite everything else until that last awful moment where he lashes out and her worst fears are realized.

[random_musing]

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I've supported the theory of Snape loving Lily since I read OotP in 2005 and even moreso when rereading the books (PoA especially) and especially when reading HBP. But I always thought that the idea of them knowing each other prior to Hogwarts was purely a pet theory/idea that would simply add to the pairing but I was very surprised and pleased to find out that they were childhood friends! It made their story even more heart breaking.

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?

I think it was based on fascination with magic (Snape pretty much was her guide to the Wizarding World) and also the fact that they were both sort of outsiders.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

Because Snape was Lily's best friend and she cared about him and probably thought she could save him from the Dark Arts. Maybe Lily had a "saving people" thing like Harry does but in a different way.

If your best friend gets involved with a bad habbit, I don't think you'd be a good friend for immediately distancing yourself away from that person. The natural thing to do is to help them.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

I'd imagine not so well based on what we found out in The Prince's Tale. We know at least one of Lily's friend didn't approve and I'm sure the Marauders (especially James) weren't exactly bouncing up and down about it.

Snape's friends probably thought it was either betrayl or that Snape was using her in a not so dignified way. I mean, she WAS considered lower than many of the extremist pureblood Slytherins so I wouldn't be surprised if they thought Snape was associating with Lily for some not so moral reasons.

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

With my original "Snape loved Lily" theory I didn't think SWM effected them that immensely because I thought they may have became friends post-SWM. And I was incredibly wrong (obviously!). I guess the next time I read SWM I'll think of it as the bitter end to a long friendship

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

I'd like to think so...eventually. What we saw was right after it happened so who knows what she could have thought in a few weeks or so.

What I'M curious about is how they reacted towards each other when summer started...

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

Well, I do think she may have forgiven him but was still incredibly appalled if she found out that he was a Death Eater. I really wonder if they had much contact after Hogwarts.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Oh definitly but I don't know if it would have been for the better.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

I sort of do. After her apparent break up with Snape I'm sure it gave more room for another guy to be in the picture...

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?

They probably tried to make Lily go against Snape by the first day of their first year and I doubt it ceased. However, I'm sure Lily had a better reason to listen to their remaks about him being into the Dark Arts as the years passed.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

Snape, unfortunately, chose a path that ensured a downfall in his relationship with Lily. It's a shame that He was so concerned about keeping Lily's attention that he felt being a Death Eater and involved with the Dark Arts would impress her.

I don't think that James had a direct effect on their friendship ending.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?

He probably thought she did but I doubt it. She may have been warming up to him (but couldn't realy fancy him yet because there were still too many issues with his personality) but not in a way that Snape should have been threatened to the point of coming up with the absurd idea that he had to impress her to keep her as a possible love interest. JKR implied that if Snape didn't get so involved in the Dark Arts Lily may have started to fall in love with him.

Anyway, I think Snape definitly saw a competition of sorts between James (and likely a few other Lily admireres) for Lily's affection as they got older.

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

Yes.

*Sigh* That's a hard question because I like Snape/Lily and I like Lily/James. I'm glad Lily ended up with James but I think that, if Snape realized that the Dark Arts were not going to be a healthy part of his relationship with Lily, Snape and Lily could have had a nice romance blooming from childhood going on. But...it just didn't work out that way.

James was willing to change for her but Snape, I guess, didn't really see that as a possible option. James proved himself to be a good match for Lily and she fell in love with him.

I like both pairings too much to really answer that question properly.

[crowheart]

I'm glad this thread was started! Thank you, it lets me at least breathe a little easier.

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I think it was the only way possible to handle things without making them seem silly. I really enjoyed it-we get a chance to see how the children develop naturally, and see how they act without the external forces pressuring them into 'houses'. I think that Lily was certainly very 'Gryffindor' from the beginning, and Severus' ambition certainly would make him very 'Slytherin', but before those qualities were actually quantified, their friendship flourished, with neither of them realizing there was any problem. It ties into a longstanding issue I have with the nature of the Sorting Hat choosing your houses.

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?

I'm not entirely sure I agree that a friendship has to be 'based' on anything. I think initially, there was certainly a sense that they were the only children around who both shared magic-Snape's mother clearly never brought him around children his own age much, and when Lily tried to show Petunia, she was upset by it. Still, I think that friendship deepened with age, common experience, and affection, much like most friendships in the real world do.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

This, I feel, has both a simple and a not-so-simple answer. The simple answer is that Lily is a Gryffindor-being loyal to friends is simply what she /is/. The more complicated theory is a personal theory-that the 'Dark Arts' and 'Light Arts' are not so well quantified as many would wish. Severus concentrated on inventing spells to show how smart he was and to win popularity-the fact that many of them wound up being called "Dark" spells I think would not have been the point. And what precisely makes a Dark spell as opposed to a Light spell, anyway? The one explanation we see of Snape talking about the Dark Arts has him talking about it being creative, fluid, almost alive-certainly a challenge. We don't see the 'Light Arts' being so responsive, and it seems he certainly had a gift for altering spells and instructions. It might have been the way to wizarding success, if it were not for Voldemort.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

I'm quite, quite sure they were not enthused. We see that the Gryffindors were not happy about it from what Lily says, and I'm sure that Gryffindor-Slytherin friendships did not exactly flourish in that time. It might have been a cause of Snape being slightly isolated-a cause of turning a cheering Lucius to a slightly sneering Lucius.

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

Completely differently-while I don't think it shows us enough of the emotions expressed, I can understand why it was so hurtful on all sides. Remember, not only is Snape being tormented, but he's being ridiculously tormented-made an object of pity, not affection or desire. He's being hung upside down and his masculinity is mocked. Lily defends him, certainly, but in a way that suggests he needs her help. Instead of saying something like "I see you're all so afraid of Severus that you need to gang up on him", she pulls the 'Oh, poor Severus, how dare you be mean to him, you big bully?' A defense, sure, but not a defense that Severus can work into romantic triumph. And then he lets out with an unforgiveable insult in response to the hurt he feels, and Lily, not quite understanding, lets it break their friendship. Heartbreaking.

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

No, I don't think she did-I think if she did, he would not have carried along the path he chose, and she would not have dated and married James.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

No. At the time of the insult he was not yet a Death Eater-she had plenty of time to forgive, and chose not to.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Yes. I think that if it were socially acceptable for the two of them to date, and they were both socially encouraged to share common goals, whichever house it was, things would have done well. It's not like the Dark supporters didn't routinely fake family trees when needed.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

Yes, absolutely. Though I think Lily was certainly attracted by James' superficial qualities, I think she would have, over time, been more attracted to Severus, the sensitive boy who opened his soul to her.

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?

Ooooh, that's a really, really good question. I don't think the effort was concerted in that fashion-I think that James was trying to discredit Snape with Lily, and his friends followed along with whatever James did, because he was the leader-much how, in different circumstances, Harry's friends all follow his lead.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

No. I think that Snape had a very definite chance, and without the external forces of James bearing down and trying to make him a laughingstock, he might well have flourished and thrived at school. Look at Harry, for example: in similar circumstances, not ever having friends, but he is taken under the wing of others and grows massively. Sure, he has Draco and his ilk, but those folk confine their torment to small, petty gibes-a far cry from hanging him upside down in front of all the girls and letting everyone look at his underwear. Draco acknowledges Harry as a worthy foe, and in that acknowledgement, gives him a little respect. James does not do so with Snape, and tries to make him something to mock-striking at Severus' most sensitive spots. I think he prevented Snape's growth in many ways.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?

I think that Snape saw the popular, successful Quidditch player going for Lily, and thought that with this champion of the school going for her, he would never have a chance. The only way he had to do this was to shine in some area-and we know what area he was naturally talented at. I don't think he saw the exact same soft spot, but he likely knew that Lily was at least superficially attracted to James, and it probably pained him. Snape had no idea how to become a James, the goodlooking hero of the school, and the more he saw this image of his rival, the more I think he thought he didn't have a chance.

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

No, I really don't think so. We see that James was still cursing Snape, even though 1) he told Lily he wouldn't, and 2) he knew it would hurt her. He died for Lily, it's true, but does anyone really think that Severus wouldn't have done the same? In fact, he did do the same-died for Lily, even though it was seventeen years later. Snape fully matured, while James never had a chance to. We can see James most clearly in the character of his friend, preserved from that time-of Sirius, who James was most close to. Sirius is underdeveloped, often arrogant and blase, dangerously hotheaded, and exceedingly prejudiced in many areas. How different could James really have been? Honestly, I don't think that James and Lily necessarily had a 'true love', and I think that they would never have married if it hadn't been for the situation.

[unconvinced]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

I think here the answer is certainly yes based mainly on the view of James playing with Harry in the flashback to Godrics Hollow, there was a lot of genuine love there which would probobly not have been present had it been a Snape household. There is also the fact that James died trying to protect Lily and Harry from Voldemort which Snape, although he "asked" Voldemort to spare her, didn't do.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by mshepnjEither he he told a lie (about the level of prejudice against Muggle-born) so she wouldn't worry, or HE doesn't see any difference, at least in her case, or both.

Snape hesitated before he spoke. I think he was making up his mind to tell a white lie.

The significance to the Severus-Lily relationship, is that one cannot help but wonder how the injustice of all that appeared to Severus. He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most.

I don't see how we can blame Lily for this. She tried so hard - making excuses for him for years. Snape was naive enough to think he could be a Death Eater and be Lily's boyfriend. Lily knew better than that. Also, there were danger signs when Snape told Lily "You're not going to - I won't let you -" Snape tries to back down, but he'd already let it slip. Snape was never prepared to give up his Death Eater friends for Lily's sake - not until it was too late and her life was directly threatened by Voldemort.

Originally Posted by web chat

Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,avery. if snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake

J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape’s tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily’s aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

[fang25]

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

I know the Snape/Lily fans will probably be even happier about the DH's revelation because of the unrequited love aspect but you also have to realize that Snape loved Lily because she was his only TRUE friend no involved in Dark Arts, etc. DD himself said how despicable it was that Snape would not flinch if Harry and James died as long as Lily had lived to be with him. James may have been a bit egotistical and well, a bullying toe-rag, but Lily did end up loving him and her judge of character seems rather good.

James preyed on Snape because of his friendship with LIly and because of his being in SLytherin. Clearly Snape was not innocent as he did end up being cruel to Lily no matter how much he regretted it.

LIly may not have respected James but i think a lot of her anger directed at him in Snape's Worst Memory was letting her emotions over her sudden loss of friendship with Snape get the best of her

James and Snape grew up in the same time period and were both strong people. Sure, Snape had a poor family life and was put in Slytherin to be with people like Mulciber and Avery, but didn't DD show us that it was possible to overcome?

I know that our knowledge of James is limited but I honestly think he deserved Lily and Snape did not. Snape hung around with people that that James had every reason to dislike (people like Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle to Harry) and he had a friendship with LIly that James didn't understand. He could have been nicer to Snape but in the end, he changed and grew up for LIly and Snape fell into the wrong path. JKR said Lily returned friendly feelings with Snape and may have even liked him romantically but that his choices deterred her. At the same time, James started off as her bitter enemy because of his immaturity but he changed for the better...

I'm rambling and repeating myself but, basically, JKR's stories have a lot of character development and growing up morals. The time of person you are is not how you acted at fifteen but who you grow to be. Harry had a lot on his plate at fifteen so he didn't see the "he was young" argument as logical but i do. And i think LIly loved James i do not think there was any sort of reluctance on her part or settling.

[Lord Godric]

Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

Yes. Snape was a great character, but he entirely lost Lily. James had changed and Snape didn't. If James never changed then I doubt Lily would have been with him either. In the end James became much more worthy of Lily's love then Snape could be. James changed, whether or not he changed for Lily, we do not know, but regardless of that fact, he changed, and that was what made Lily fall in love with him.

[FluffyN]

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?
My sisters & I had been debating some version of "Snape loves Lily" for so long that it wouldn't have felt like much of a revelation. BUT, the childhood friends twist was most excellent and satisfying - much more so than unrequited love blah blah on Snape's part would have been.

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?
Initially, it was there shared magicalness (I don't think thats a word...) that brought them together. Snape desired a friend but only a witch or wizard would do. And Lily was attracted to Snape's knowledge of the wizarding world. I'm sure they enjoyed spending time together and valued their shared experiences, but they may not have had much else in common.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?
Its hard to give up on your best friend. It means on some level admitting that you were wrong about them. Lily held out hope for him until she matured enough to see that the relationship was no longer viable - they were just too different. Its like your best friend who lived next door to you growing up. You may have been inseperable for years, but eventually there comes a point where you realize that all you have in common anymore is a house on the same street. Not that it wasn't a true, loving friendship while it lasted, it had just past its expiration date.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?
For real! Especially that gryffindor and that slytherin! The other gryffindors would have thought Lily was either crazy or a saint and the Snape was the luckiest dude at Hogwarts. I think people would have interpreted their relationship in a romantic way (which I wouldn't completely rule out as accurate) and it would have been the subject of much gossip. Which is why I wonder how no one let any inkling of this slip to Harry!
Slytherin's would not have approved of the friendship much either. Snape probably felt increased pressure to prove his Slytherish cred by associating with the Death-Eaters-in-Training.


5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?
Certainly clarifies things a bit. I feel a bit foolish for thinking that the "worst" part must have occured after Snape pulled Harry out of the pensieve. (ie that James did "pants" him.)

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?
No. I don't think she carried an active grudge either. She seemed like a well adjusted girl. She probably mourned the end of the relationship for a while and then just moved on.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?
Even then I don't think Snape would have given her the opportunity to forgive him.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?
Quite likely. Sorting is kind of terrible. Being told exactly who you are at 11 years old? Self-fulfilling prophecy if you ask me. 9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?
Maybe, but I don't think it worked. James may have been able to "get the girl" a lot sooner if he'd never picked on Snape. Teenaged boys are not really known for their sophistcated understanding of girls.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all? Yes and no. I don't think Snape & Lily would have remained best friends for life no matter what. But, his rivaly with James and his crew may have led in part to Snape's association with the DEiTs since they seemed to be the other powerful group at Hogwarts. And it was Snape's Death Eater actions that made Lily decide to disassociate from him completely.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?
I believe that Snape knew from the moment he laid eyes on James on the Hogwarts express that he would eventually "lose" Lily to him. I have absolutely nothing to back up that statement, it is just my belief.

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?
Yeah! James wasn't a Death Eater! And he is said to have gotten more mature and less arrogant as time went on. Where as Snape just got increasingly...Death Eater-y until it was too late and Lily was gone.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by fang25

he had a friendship with LIly that James didn't understand.

I disagree. I think James understood the relationship very well - Snape and Lily were close friends.

Severus and James were jealous of each other, as teenagers often are. In the books we have Ron being jealous if Krum, Harry jealous of Cedric, Ginny jealous of Cho, and Hermione jealous of everyone.

I think it was just human nature for James to realize that Lily was friends with a Slytherin, and the whole House Loyalty thing comes into it, since he was a Quidditch Player.

It's like Ron's phrase "consorting with the enemy" even though he didn't personally dislike Krum.

Severus is just a kid when he has the fight with Lily - he's fifteen and obviously didn't know that he was limiting his life choices by running around with DEs. Look how Draco changes over the course of the books! JKR said that she pitied Draco because he was "running with the big boys" and was in way over his head, just like Regulus.

Severus figured out the same thing eventually, but it took the threat to Lily's life to bring him to his senses.

[clkginny]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I wasn't surprised. In fact, when Petunia spoke of that awful boy, it seemed likely that it could refer to Snape, as prior to that she had referred to James as "that Potter".

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?

Honestly, the same things that most friendships are based on: common interests, enjoyment of each others company, intellectual stimulation, etc.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

For the same reasons that many people will continue a friendship when they see their friends making disastrous decisions. You care for the person and you want to help them.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

Not very well, especially given the fact that Lily was a muggle-born witch. I'm sure that it was seen as some type of betrayal by both sides.

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

Honestly, it makes me disappointed in Lily. She was a long time friend of Snape's, but she didn't actually try to help him (as in, remove the enchantments on him). Instead, she engaged James in his flirtation. By the same token, while I can understand Snape's extreme reaction to the situation (jealousy, embarrassment, humiliation, and all of this taking place in front of Lily), striking out at Lily over his situation was wrong as well.

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

I don't see any evidence within the books to support an answer to this question.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

Same as above (#6).

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

I'm sure. Any time a decision changes, so do the consequences.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

As Snape's journey to the dark side, so to speak, is presented as the reason that Lily gave up on their friendship, I'm sure it helped clear the way.

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?

Not precisely, but I think they harassed Snape because he was friends with Lily and James was jealous.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

I don't think you can blame James for what happened between Snape and Lily, but I do think that he was actively trying to cause a rift between Lily and Snape due to his own jealousy. There isn't sufficient evidence for me to have an opinion on the nature of its possible influence on Lily and Snape's relationship, though. We did see in the pensieve that Lily was dismissive of Snape's dislike of the Marauders, even though they'd been bullying him and she later asked James what Snape had ever done to him.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?

I would suspect so. Especially given the byplay that occurred during SWM.

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

I don't believe so. I think it is apparent that Snape's feelings for Lily were strong enough that had she went with him he would have done all in his power to meet her expectations. Also, if he had married Lily, he would have been unlikely to become a death eater, if only because a muggle born wife would be frowned upon. And I think that he would have done anything to protect her if they began actively threatening her.

[anabel]

Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

I would definitely say "Yes". James doesn't get much attention in this book, but he's still the same brave man who willingly stood in front of Voldemort without a wand in order to buy Lily and Harry just a little more time. Snape was brave, but his personality problems, I'm almost tempted to say personality disorder, because I think he might have had one, prevented him from having a proper relationship with Lily. No matter how much he loved her, he couldn't or wouldn't see that the Dark Arts were ... well ... Dark! If they had married, their marriage would have been a very unequal one, with her so much more socially competent that him, not to mention the fact that his friends would have tortured and killed her without a second thought.

James and Lily had a wonderful relationship, by all accounts. They were a happy family before Voldemort hunted them down. This is very important, because Harry, neglected and abused by the Dursleys, had to have learned about love somewhere! Having had two parents who loved him and gave him a secure and happy start in life was the only thing that could have got him through the years with the Dursleys.

And what do you think Lily would have to say to Snape if she saw the way he treated Harry at school?

[Jebusrocks]

I heard this "rumor" and never believed it. But when I read the book, it dawned to me those rumors were correct.

I wonder if Lily had a bit of feeling for Snape even after Harry was born.

[crowheart]

Originally Posted by anabel

James and Lily had a wonderful relationship, by all accounts. They were a happy family before Voldemort hunted them down. This is very important, because Harry, neglected and abused by the Dursleys, had to have learned about love somewhere! Having had two parents who loved him and gave him a secure and happy start in life was the only thing that could have got him through the years with the Dursleys.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that: how old was Harry when his family was killed? I have the sense he was under a year old, though that may not be accurate. Few children remember that far back at all. I think his own strength got him through his years with the Dursleys, and we cannot make any assumptions about James and Lily's marriage, or what it entailed, simply from his emotional survival of the abuse there.

[random_musing]

Originally Posted by Jebusrocks

I heard this "rumor" and never believed it. But when I read the book, it dawned to me those rumors were correct.

Well it was a theory long before it was a book 7 rumor.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Severus figured out the same thing eventually, but it took the threat to Lily's life to bring him to his senses.

Yep, and I ageed with your post.

Originally Posted by crowheart

I have the sense he was under a year old, though that may not be accurate.

No, Harry was exactly 15 months old when James and Lily were killed. The first years of a baby's life, when it comes to care, are very important and I'm sure Harry got a lot of love for those months.

[Nys]

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?
I've got to say prior to DH I hated the idea of Snape and Lily knowing each other... But I did like the way that JK portrayed it... A little...

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?
I think it was largely based on Snape being Lily's introduction into the world of magic. Much like the way that Harry will defend Hagrid to the very end because he has that connection with him. Snape was the one who told Lily that she wasn't actually a freak...

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?
I think because Lily was a lovely person who wouldn't just throw away a friend because they weren't popular.. I think she could see the good in him, even if he couldn't see it himself. But eventually, that good started to be clouded by the attraction to the Dark Arts.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?
I don't know how aware they all would have been of it. I wouldn't think a future Death Eater would have made it public that he was friends with a Gryffindor...

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?
If anything it makes me think worse of Snape... Here Lily was, his childhood friend, trying to help him, and he essentially threw their friendship back in her face and pretended that she was worseless to him.

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?
I don't know, I don't think so.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?
Sure if he hadn't become a Death Eater... But still, he did.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?
Maybe if Snape had been sorted into Gryffindor, but not otherwise.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?
No. I think James got a better opportunity with Lily as he matured and became the man that was worthy of marrying her.

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?
I don't think they would have deliberately done this. They may have continued to complain about him in front of her, but no I don't think there was a concerted effort.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?
Snape was already well on his way to being a Death Eater before Lily and James hooked up.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?
I don't think that James was an arrogent berk all of the time. I think maybe as JK suggested, Lily may have not hated him in SWM, and as such I would think that this was caused by her seeing a potential other side to him. Whereas with Snape, if Lily was seeing another side to him as she got older, it wasn't a good side.

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?
Yes, undoubtedly yes! This is a man who put his own life at risk to save the man he hated. This is a guy who learnt how to be an animagus to help his friend deal with being a werewolf. This is a guy who loved his best friends so much, he couldn't fathom the idea that one of them would betray him. He was capable of love and true friendship. Snape wasn't capable of this. He's a man who was fully prepared to have Lily's husband and son killed, just to spare his life. He wasn't capable of understanding love if he was prepared to see this. Lily wasn't a fool, she had to of loved James and Harry. She certainly loved Harry more than herself. I don't think Snape ever would have understood this. JK says herself he hated Harry up until the end even though he did protect him... I think this was largely because he knew that Lily had had a choice, die, or live... Die for her child, or live her life with Snape (well that's how it would have been playing in his head)... And Lily again, didn't chose him...

[Fawkesfan1]

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts? I was somewhat surprised by it -- not that much though. I figured that he was the "awful boy" that Aunt Petunia told Harry about.

2. What do you think this friendship was based on? I think that it was based on what all friendships are based on: trust, things that the two people had in common, etc.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts? I think that she really wanted to help Snape, even though he was SO blinded by his attraction to the Dark Arts.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin? They probably were outraged by it, and shocked to see it -- two people from their houses, ACTUALLY getting along together...

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory? Hmm... I figured, at first that his worst memory had something to do with Lily, but then I changed my mind, when Snape told Harry... to not use his own spells on him like "his filthy father did"... then I figured that it had something to do with the way Harry's father treated him. But once I read DH, my view of the actions that happened in that memory went back to my former opinion of them.

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"? I think that she might have... but due to what happened in the long run -- him asking DD to protect her and her family, etc., it seems as if she NEVER did. I could be wrong on that... but it looked that way to me.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater? Yes, she probably would have... but it would have taken a lot for him to overcome his obsession with the Dark Arts and with becoming a DE.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses? It might have been... but it might not have been as well... people are people and they have their own issues (like Snape definitely had) that they have to deal with. Snape didn't get over his own, until it was too late.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily? Yes it did... once he started to grow up and mature himself.

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl? I don't really know if they did that or not...

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all? Yes and No... he brought it on somewhat himself, due to his attraction to the Dark Arts and wanting to become a DE. He needed help to get over it, Lily tried to help, but he was to blinded by his own obsession to see that someone cared about him enough to want to help him.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape? He probably was jealous -- I mean, take a look at the way that he treated Harry, he TRULY hated him!! All he saw for the most part was James!! It took him quite awhile to see Lily in him -- sadly .

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape? In certain ways... he was a good father to Harry and he cared for Lily. But, he did like to go off and explore a lot (sound familar? - Dumbledore did the same thing... and that wasn't good AT ALL for his own family)... he seemed to not totally have all of his priorities straight, even though he had matured for the most part.

As for Snape, he WOULDN'T have made a good father to Harry, even though he cared for Lily... his own family life was unstable for the most part, and he was VERY emotionally unstable himself, and that wouldn't have been good for someone who's supposed to be a father figure.

I think that she didn't really do a good job (no offense) in picking who she was interested in... both Snape and James had their flaws.

But overall, I guess she chose the best man.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by random_musing

No, Harry was exactly 15 months old when James and Lily were killed. The first years of a baby's life, when it comes to care, are very important and I'm sure Harry got a lot of love for those months.

Yes, the first year is absolutely crucial. Just because Harry doesn't remember it, doesn't mean it wasn't important.

Originally Posted by crowheart

I think his own strength got him through his years with the Dursleys, and we cannot make any assumptions about James and Lily's marriage, or what it entailed, simply from his emotional survival of the abuse there.

It's extraordinary that any child could survive those years at the Dursley's without sustaining severe emotional damage. Without detracting from the credit due to Harry himself for being a remarkable child, he couldn't have learned about love if nobody ever loved him. That was Voldemort's problem!

[ignisia]

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

I was surprised. I always imagined Lily's family being richer than Snape's, and that led me to believe that they'd live far away from each other. I guess I was right in one way, and wrong in the other. But I enjoyed the revelation anyway.

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?

From Severus' POV: He seemed to have been a lonely, unpopular, and neglected child. Petunia certainly knew about him and didn't like him. We're all social animals, and when a person is lonely, they're going to try to reach out to someone. I think Severus at first thought Lily appealing because of her beauty. The fact that she was a witch would be an added bonus.

Lily's POV: It looks like she liked to hear what Severus had to say about the magical world. He was almost like a door to that world. But it also seems as though she genuinely came to care about Severus. She asks him about himself and his family in the scene by the river, and remembers some little details.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

I think it took a while for Snape to become as immersed in the Slytherin gang as he was in year 5. That, and I'm sure Lily wanted to forgive him, since they'd been best friends for so long.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

Pretty badly. Lily says that she has made excuses to her friends for ages. And since Severus hung out with the junior DEs, I don't think they'd be happy about Severus associating with a "Mudblood".

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

Hm. The anti-Slytherin prejudice would have been going strong at that time, which is probably why no one tried to help Severus when he was being attacked by the marauders. The fact that he was friends with a Gryffindor would not have softened people. On the contrary, Lily's friends give us an example of what the average Gryffindor must have thought.

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

No. She seemed determined to put her foot down during that last scene with the two of them.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

Good question. I don't think so, because she still wouldn't have approved of Severus having those sentiments, whether he acted on them or not.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Oh, yes, definitely. Before he came to Hogwarts, Snape seemed to have some anti-Muggle feeling. I don't think that would have been nurtured if he were sorted into Gryffindor. And it's that anti-Muggle stance that ended the friendship.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

Yes. After Severus and Lily began to drift apart, I think James may have been able to steer her closer to him.

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?

Nice idea. I wouldn't be at all surprised. The excuse Lupin and Sirius give about Snape being "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts" doesn't even seem pointed to in SWM. In SWM, they're all over Severus' looks. They may have wanted to discourage from thinking himself "worthy" of Lily.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

Yes, in a way. Severus dug himself into a deep pit. I think Lily was already upset over what Snape's friends were doing (and what Severus himself was defending).

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?

What effect!? He must have been livid!
But yes, I think the post-werewolf scene tells us that Severus was very worried that Lily was beginning to like James Potter. He seems relieved when she calls James "arrogant".

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

Frankly, I wouldn't have chosen either of them. Severus was going down a bad path, and James was a...well, this is a family-friendly forum. Suffice it to say, I'd never go out with a guy who threatened to hex me.
I don't think it was a question of worthiness. They were both good people. Lily just happened to fall in love with one of them.

[Serric]

Personally, I think the relationship between Snape and Lily was a natural one, and I enjoyed seeing the history between the two. He obviously felt and attraction for her as a child and when it turned out she was a witch, it sparked something inside him. He not only cared for her but he respected her. That respect became infatuation. The Dark Arts, as repulsive as they were to Lily, I think fascinated her as well. Having grown up a muggle until her powers began to develop, I would imagine all types of magic would seem wonderous.

That miserable day as Snape was accosted by Sirius, Peter, Lupin and, most of all, James, was perhaps the most tragic event in Snape’s adult (or pre-adult) life. He never fit in anywhere before and was having trouble doing so at Hogwarts. All he wanted was to be left alone to pursue his studies but it seemed James “Golden Boy” Potter and his gang made a point to torment him. Embarrassed and enraged, his anger misguided, he took his frustration out on the one person who was truly on his side. A mistake I can guarantee he regretted for the rest of his life. He should have told her how he felt. He should have found courage. Instead he sit back and watch as the girl he loved was pushed directly in to the arms of the man who made his life miserable.

No wonder he hated Harry so much. Harry was the result of Snape’s cowardice, his failure, his spite and anger, and, most of all, his own actions. Seeing Harry every day was another day Snape was painfully reminded of what he had so carelessly tossed aside with a simple, single word: ”Mudblood”.

I have to say, James was never really depicted as a saint or hero in the later books, but more of a jock-type jerk. Snape was always the underdog living in the shadow of James, et al, and must have realized that he had only until the end of the 7th year in Hogwarts to have any interaction with Lily, or even see her ever again. Had he known, would he have found the courage to approach her?

No representative of either house would allow Snape and Lily to pursue a friendship without torment. They are, simple, too set in their ways as opposites. Something, I am sure, James fed upon when seeking to woo Lily.

Did Lily ever forgive Snape? I think she did, but silently. I think she also realized, as fond of him as she once may have been, that road was closed. Had they pursued a relationship would she have become a Death Eater? I think not. In fact, she may have been the guiding light to keep Snape from becoming one as well. When one has nothing left to lose, nothing to fight for, what does it matter to him or her in the end? Power is all that matters. Power and respect. This was, I believe, Snape’s motivation; he found a place he could finally fit in.

On a side note, I am actually disappointed in the way Snape died. He seemed, even then, passive. I would have liked to see him take an active role and literally sacrifice himself to save Harry – his death in Hallows was, to me, a waste. But that’s just me.