Snape and Lily - the Relationship Revealed v2

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I think credit for this goes not to Alan Rickman (despite his delightful portrayal of Snape in the films) but to Rowling, who wrote the character, including his dry, black sense of humor. Given Lily's penchant for 'cheeky' comments, I think this is an apsect of Snape's personality that she always appreciated. So, for that matter, did Harry, when he 'got to know' young Snape through the latter's old Potions notes.

I agree - it's there on the page. In fact, they leave out alot of Snape's funniest lines in the movies, unfortunately.

When Harry reads the HBP book, he starts thinking of the Prince as a "bloke." It's really another way Harry gets to know Snape without realizing just how much he knows.

Originally Posted by Tromos

Perhaps it just shows how excellent a choice Alan Rickman was for the part. I think the Crabbe/Longbottom scene is the best of the 3.

Yep, but left out of the movie.

My favorite is the scene at Christmas Dinner in PoA, when Dumbledore gives Snape the Christmas Cracker that opens into a vulture party hat, and then they swap hats. I wanted to see that scene in the movie really badly, but for some reason they didn't film it.

[Lillbet]

Originally Posted by jwang036

I like this question. My answer is "No, I don't believe Lily would be happy."

Snape is my favorite character and his love to Lily was very touching. However, love is not the only thing that builds a happy relationship. There are so many other elements required and I don't think Snape understood most of them although it was not his fault. His family, his background and his dark passion twisted his understanding and behavior. Although he was intelligent, passionate, funny (in a very dark way) and (deep down) caring (to the woman he loved), he wouldn't have a clue how to actually make Lily happy.

Ditto Sadly, I doubt he would have been able to relate to Lily on a basic level. That's not to say that people with different backgrounds can't, but given the way Snape treats his students it's obvious that he would not have been able to overcome his personal issues and enjoy happiness to any extent.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I agree - it's there on the page. In fact, they leave out alot of Snape's funniest lines in the movies, unfortunately.

My favorite is the scene at Christmas Dinner in PoA, when Dumbledore gives Snape the Christmas Cracker that opens into a vulture party hat, and then they swap hats. I wanted to see that scene in the movie really badly, but for some reason they didn't film it.

It's sad, really, because the cuts decrease the scope of the character (and deprive us of more Rickman screentime).

[Tromos]

Originally Posted by Lillbet

Ditto Sadly, I doubt he would have been able to relate to Lily on a basic level. That's not to say that people with different backgrounds can't, but given the way Snape treats his students it's obvious that he would not have been able to overcome his personal issues and enjoy happiness to any extent.

I suppose asking whether Severus would have been happy is a whole other question, isn't it? The post-marriage relationship between Tonks and Lupin in HBP shows just how one party in a marriage can be ecstatically oblivious to the misery of the other.

So, dear Lillbet, since you have opened the door, let's tackle that question too. Would Severus really have been happy with Lily? Or was the fantasy much better than the reality could have ever been?

[BluecanaryLite]

Originally Posted by Tromos

Regardless of other family-related opinions, I think Snape clung to Lily because she let him. He had no love at home, and here is this lovely, fresh young girl that not only doesn't cringe away but boldly challenges him and accepts him. How could he resist that - the only level of acceptance from a peer he'd probably ever known?

And I think Lily pursued that friendship partly out of sheer feistiness. Because Petunia turned her nose up at Snape, Lily wasn't about to give her sister the satisfaction of agreeing with her. While Petunia had her own ideas, I think Lily was clearly the alpha of the two girls. As she got to know him, I think she probably felt a mixture of pity, interest, attraction, a desire to learn, and probably just a bit of revulsion (girls being the complicated emotional beings that they are and all ).

As for the infamous scene with the Marauders, don't forget that even Lily had a hard time keeping a straight face while Snape was enduring his most humiliating moment upside down with his drawers showing. Snape wasn't the only one that changed at Hogwarts. Somewhere in the middle of 5-6 years as a Gryffindor, I think Lily was influenced by her housemates and inherited a bit of the same attitude that drove James to humiliate Snape in the first place.

I really like your interpretation of the attraction between the two characters. Well said.

And that's an interesting point about Lily having trouble keeping a straight face. I'd forgotten about that.

Originally Posted by lalala13

I know everyone has their views about Snape/Lily/James but this is just my two cents. I just don't understand why it's alright to forgive Snape for everything that he did and not forgive James. Even after reading the Prince's Tale (where I did feel really bad for Snape and actually stopped hating him) I still think he was worse than James. The way I see it, the only reason Snape ever did anything good was because of Lily - because he screwed up with her, because he still loved her - but not because he truly believed in changing...he was horrible to Harry up until he died and I'm sure it's hard seeing a spitting image of James in front of him all the time, but if it's kind of stupid if his whole reason for hating Harry was because he looked like his father and reminded him of what he lost.

Totally agree with this too. When he shows Dumbledore his Patronus, I took that to mean that Snape only ever followed Dumbledore's orders because of Lily. That it had always been for Lily's sake, and nothing else.

[Daelin]

Originally Posted by BluecanaryLite

When he shows Dumbledore his Patronus, I took that to mean that Snape only ever followed Dumbledore's orders because of Lily. That it had always been for Lily's sake, and nothing else.

So Severus focused on one reason. Harry did a lot of things solely because he trusted Dumbledore, but that does not diminish their worth, does it?

Also, please do not forget that the existence of the Patronus means Severus focused on happiness and joy where Lily was concerned. You can't make a Patrronus from despair and hate.

[BluecanaryLite]

Originally Posted by clkginny

Snape never called Hermione a mud-blood.





I was merely making an observation about the nature of prejudice. But Snape had a far more personal reason to dislike muggles than Sirius...

Thanks for pointing out the detention things. Totally forgot about that. Okay, James and Sirius were little jerks. I maintain that James must've changed and matured, however, as Lupin explained to Harry.

Snape had his reasons to dislike muggles, but he also had Lily to challenge his ideas. People aren't merely taught what to believe, they engage with the ideas they're presented with and choose what to believe.

Originally Posted by Tubasrock77

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Most definitely. Snape's mother had brought him up to hate muggles, but he certainly did not hate Lily, and probably would have grown to see the error of his mother's ways had he not been around future Death Eaters like Lucius and Mulciber who bullied that sentiment back into him.

Did his mother teach him to hate muggles? She married a muggle, didn't she? I think it was more Snape's experience of seeing his father, a muggle, treat his mother, a witch, so poorly that gave him anti-muggle leanings.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Probably my favourite line of the whole series! I love Snape's humour - it reminds me of the comedy series "Blackadder" if any of you know that.

[BluecanaryLite]

[quote=wimblemimble;4684114]

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

Most definetly. I also think that James took any opportunity to push Snape towards the dark side so as to become closer to Lily.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

No. I'm sure that James played an important role in Snape's downfall, whether he meant it or not. His bullying drove Snape to seek friends from his own house, which lead him to Death Eaters and pure-blood supremists.

The Maurauders' bullying of Snape could have pushed him in any number of directions, he chose to be involved in the dark arts. I think he would've been involved in the dark arts whether he was friends with Lily or not, an no matter how he was treated. Lupin told Harry that Snape was enthralled with the dark arts, JKR said that he was attracted to them. Snape himself had an affinity for the dark arts, and he had the attitude of a pure-blood supremist before he even started at Hogwarts.

Originally Posted by KO_06

I personally don't really see that there is much of a question of what might of been. Snape and Lily were friends for a good 5 years during which a relationship could have blossomed if that's what was meant to be. What it boils down to is that Snape felt one way and Lily another, so therefore the idea of them as a couple was never really a potential possiblilty whether James had been in the picture or not. No matter how Snape felt he just simply was not the right person for Lily. Their beliefs and priorities were just too different making it impossible for them to even be friends much less involved with each other.

Well put!

Originally Posted by alwaysme

Well, with Snape I think internally there was a struggle. I think deep down he was a good person but was attracted to power and acceptance and that eventually won out.

My view of Snape is totally the opposite. I think deep down, he was a nasty person who was attracted to power, but Lily brought out something nobler in him, and that's what caused the internal struggle. The end result is the same, though.

Originally Posted by alwaysme

Well I assume when you have had a terrible home life like Snape you would probably not understand everything about relationships.

And yet Harry, who had a terrible home life, didn't have that problem.

There's a line of argument on this board that makes Snape out to be a victim of his circumstances, but that's only worth so much. Especially in JKR's books, where so much emphasis is placed on the choices people make. Ultimately, Snape chose his path.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by Silver Ink Pot

That's your opinion, and that is how people viewed it in the past because everyone thought James transformed himself after rescuing Snape from the werewolf.

I don't really see how that changes anything, really. Now, I'd say that James's actions were more out of anger at Snape for having tried to expose Remus, and to get him expelled. Now, we know for sure that it wasn't simple curiosity that drove Snape to the Shrieking Shack, but a desire to show up James.

Originally Posted by SIP

But now we know that Lily didn't even understand the "Werewolf Prank" because she didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf and that Sirius sent Snape under the tree. So she had a lack of information about James, didn't she?

Seriously, I don't think that Lupin being a werewolf would have made such a difference to Lily. She was a muggleborn, and thus without the prejudices that wizarding families acquire about werewolves. If anything, she'd have appreciated James more for befriending an outcast, and for protecting him.

Unless you believe that all the marauders were in on the prank, and that James just got cold feet at the end, James is still the hero who set out to rescue his enemy from a werewolf. Lily got that part right, even after Snape tells her that they were all in on it. Thus, the fact that Sirius set Snape up in the first place doesn't change anything. James was still willing to stand up to his best friend and do the right thing. What I wonder is, would Snape have done the same thing? I think not.

Originally Posted by SIP

She considered James better because he didn't use the word "Mudblood" and Snape did, even though he apologized. A month ago, people were saying that Snape would never have been sorry for saying that, but that wasn't true. It was a huge regret for him, and it made him lose his best friend, which is obviously why that is SWM.

She also says that James doesn't use Dark Magic. From canon, the only problem that Lily saw in James was that he was arrogant. Ironically, Snape himself told Lily that James fancied him, and I suppose that James's actions must have made more sense to her. She'd have deduced that James was trying to impress her. At the end of SWM, she tells James exactly what it is that annoys her. Considering that we are told that James did change, become a better person, it's rather obvious that James took her comments to heart.

I agree that it is nearly impossible to talk about the new canon without speaking the name "James." Even the meaning of that name is important now, since we know it means "supplanter," or someone who takes the place of another - in this case, Severus.

I really don't understand where that's coming from. Snape was a friend to Lily, a good friend, for whose behaviour she even made excuses for. Jo tells us that she loved him as a friend, and it would have been something more, if it had not been for Snape's association with the Dark side. Snape had been associated with the Dark side ever since he came to Hogwarts. Thus, Snape never had a chance with Lily, as a love interest. It is only in Snape's mind that James is a supplanter. We know from Jo's word and from Snape's suspicions that Lily always had a soft spot for James, whatever she might have said. So, I don't think that James really replaced Snape. James was always there.

Originally Posted by Yoana

I really don't think we have enough evidence to claim this. We have three or four scenes of interaction out of a six-year friendship. I don't think that's enough to draw general conclusions from. If they were best friends, then there was effort on both sides. And Jo confirmed she did love him as a friend. She showed concern for him. I'm sure he knew she cared about him, they were bes friends for six years at the least! In any case, we've seen too little of that friendship to draw decisive conclusions, in my opinion.

I agree, Yoana. In the scenes we saw, we see that Lily did try to dissuade Snape from turning to the dark side, that she disapproved of the company he kept. She does show concern for what Snape is turning into, but Snape simply changes the topic. It's almost as if Snape took Lily to be granted, as a constant. As long as Lily hated James, all was fine, and she would inevitably be his. That, IMO, was the major mistake that Snape made.

Originally Posted by Daelin

Ah, but that's my point. We finally see clear evidence of how Severus felt about Lily, but given their importance to Severus, don't you think that if Lily had ever shown appreciation and clear affection for Severus, that he would have shown those memories also?

We have the memory of Lily saying that she and Snape are best friends. And that's all Lily saw Snape as - her best friend. We also know that she had stood up for her friend many times, that she had been making excuses for him. We also saw that Snape didn't really listen to what Lily had to say. From that, I can only conclude that he saw the friendship as a stepping stone to a romantic relationship, nothing more. Snape didn't really make an effort to change himself. The fact that he thought that becoming a powerful and famous death eater would impress Lily shows us that Snape didn't know Lily at all, that he never even attempted to. He was in love with his own version of Lily, not the person.

Originally Posted by Daelin

We also know that James was not quite what Lily thought he was, as she thought he had chenged when or before they started dating, but in fact he just hid his attacks on Severus.

'Attacks on Severus'? Really, we have no canon to suggest that James ever initiated any attacks after he started going out with Lily. From what is described, it looks as though Snape, the jilted lover, took potshots at James whenever he got a chance, and James retaliated. All that has changed now is that we know that Snape had a reason to hate James and to attack him when he got a chance.

Originally Posted by Daelin

The scene in 'SWM' is also troubling; why is Lily almost-smiling when James torments Severus? Couldn't it be just that the 'arrogant toe-rag' is handsome, athletic, and charming? I've seen good-looking jocks get away with criminal behavior towards women in my time, so I have to say this must be considered as a possibility.

That is a possibility. But I suspect that the reason she almost smiled was because it was Snape's spell that had been used on himself. I imagine that Snape must have been proud of that spell. To see him 'impaled on his own sword', that must have struck Lily as just a bit ironic.

When you consider that Lily and Snape were best friends at the time, it really doesn't seem all that bad. I mean, Ron found it pretty funny when Harry used it on him. And I don't recall Ron holding a grudge against Seamus and Dean for laughing at him.

Originally Posted by Daelin

He knew Lily hated the Dark Arts, yet he plunged into them. Why? Because I think Severus saw Lily start to fall for James, had no idea how to win her love, and so jealousy and insecurity became too much for him to resist. And while that is the fault of Severus Snape, it is also the fault of Lily Evans, who saw him falling away and complained about it, but who chose not to reach out when he needed it most.

Didn't Jo reveal in the webchat that Snape thought that becoming a DE would impress Lily? We also saw him dismissing Lily's concerns over what Mulciber tried to do to Mary Macdonald as 'nothing', even though Lily thought of it as Dark Magic. Thus, I think that Snape's idea of a it of fun was Dark Magic to Lily and possibly to everyone else. From what Lupin says about Sectumsempra being a speciality of Snape's, it seems rather obvious that Snape was prone to using that spell regularly.

1. So what did everyone think of the revelation that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts?

It was certainly a big surprise, more so because it had already been suggested on the forums before, and I had dismissed it as improbable. Kudos to Silver Ink Pot though, for figuring it out early on.

2. What do you think this friendship was based on?

I think that for Lily, it was an explanation for the various things that she had been making happen from a young age. As we saw, Lily didn't like Snape very much initially, but she was curious about the wizarding world, and that's what drove her to be friends with Snape. Magic was something they both had in common. We see that their friendship deteriorates over time, as Lily learns more about the Wizarding society, and the various prejudices.

3. Why did Lily continue to associate with him despite his increasing attraction to the Dark Arts?

Because she considered him to be her best friend, and was loyal as a friend was expected to be. We see Snape reminding Lily that they were supposed to be best friends, which suggests to me that Lily had said or done something to express her displeasure at Snape's leanings towards the Dark side. It's also possible that she chose to dismiss some of her friends' warnings, because of the ongoing Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry.

4. How do you think the other Slytherins and Gryffindors reacted to a friendship between a Gryffindor and a Slytherin?

I imagine that they found it to be a bit strange. However, if they knew that Snape and Lily knew each other from before Hogwarts, then they wouldn't really be that surprised, I expect.

5. How does this effect your view of the actions that took place in Snape's Worst Memory?

Now, it appears clear that James chose to torment Snape because of Lily, and also because of Snape's attempt to expose Remus as a werewolf. I'd never believed that James going after Snape was just because he existed.

6. Do you think Lily forgave him for calling her a "mudblood"?

Considering that there are no more interactions shown between them afterwards, and the fact that Lily never spoke of Snape when Harry brought her back with the stone, I'd say she didn't. Lily considered it to be betrayal, and that's what it was. Snape chose to insult his 'best friend' publicly with the worst insult in the Wizarding World. Thus, I can't really blame her for never forgiving him.

From what Lily and James say to Harry about him being so brave, it appears as if they had been watching over him all through. Any thought Lily might have had of forgiving Snape must have vanished when she saw how Snape treated her son.

7. Do you think she would have had he not become a Death Eater?

Perhaps. But from what Lily says, it appears as though Snape calling her mudblood was the last straw in a string of events. She'd been making excuses for him, pretending that what she heard about him were lies.

8. Do you think their relationship might have been different had they not been sorted in different houses?

Definitely. Snape would not have had so many bad influences then, and Lily would have been able to dissuade him a bit more. Perhaps, he might even have been friends with James, and there might have been five marauders. But, as we saw, Snape was already convinced that he wanted to be in Slytherin.

9. Is it your view that Snape's journey towards the dark side as it were, gave James a better opportunity to be romantically involved with Lily?

Definitely. With Lily not hanging out with Snape, James would have had more chances to 'prove himself' so to speak. But then again, it seems to me that James always had Lily's attention. There had to be some reason for why Snape thought that James was a threat.

10. Do you believe that the Marauder's as a group tried to discredit Snape with Lily as a way of ensuring James got the girl?

No more than Lily's other friends tried to warn her about Snape. I don't think that the marauders were angels either. They'd of course have rooted for James, and done what they could to ensure that he got Lily.

11. Do you believe that Snape needed no help in his downfall with Lily and that James was merely on the periphery of it all?

I do. It's not like James compelled Snape to join the DEs. Snape chose his own path, and James did not influence it.

12. What impact did James' relationship with Lily have on Snape. Do you believe Snape saw Lily hold a soft spot for James in a manner similar to the one she held for Snape?

It would have been devastating for Snape to see Lily, the object of his affections, going out with his 'nemesis'. I suspect that being as close to Liy as he was, he saw from early on that Lily had a soft spot for James, and it was fairly obvious that James liked Lily. Thus, James was a threat to Snape, and he did everything he could to discredit James, because he knew that James was a worthy competitor, and far more 'fanciable'.

And I don't think that Lily ever had a soft spot for Snape. He was her best friend, and their friendship ended before it could grow to anything more.

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

Most definitely. James's only fault was that he'd been cocky and arrogant as a young teen. It was a phase that he got over. But even back then, he shows that he is a good person underneath, by coming to Snape's rescue from Remus. James was never swayed by the Dark side. James also never saw Lily's heritage as a flaw. All in all, James was a far better person than Snape, and thus, definitely more worthy of Lily's love.

[BluecanaryLite]

Originally Posted by Buffybot

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?

I don't really like this question because I don't think love is necessarily based on worth, in this sense. You can love someone who is a bad person and not stop loving them just because they're not worthy. You can't choose who you love either you just love them. Lily obviously loved James and didn't just choose him because Sev was a Death Eater.

Good response.

Originally Posted by Tromos

Based on the letter Harry (and Snape) found in Book 7, it appears that Lily was happy (if occasionally exasperated) with James.

Do you think Lily could have been happy with Severus, even if he hadn't gone the Dark Arts route?

(^ That's an honest question, not a leading one)

That's a tough question, because I see Snape's attraction to the Dark Arts very much as part of who he is. I think the differences between Snape and Lily became increasingly apparent as they matured, to the point where Lily couldn't excuse them anymore, and that would've happened whether Snape was involved in the dark arts or not. On the other hand, as I've said before, it seems that Lily brought out the good in Snape, so if they ended up together, maybe her influence would've overwhelmed his darker qualities.

Stop me if everyone's discussed this before, but what do you make of young Severus looking at Lily "greedily"?

That word is what gives rise to the idea that Snape had a weird obsession with Lily, I think. I don't know that I'd call Snape's attraction to her weird and obsessive, but I definitely think the "greedy" look indicates something about his character. It isn't a "pure" kind of love, is it? Even when he was just 10. It's interesting.

Originally Posted by Daelin

So Severus focused on one reason. Harry did a lot of things solely because he trusted Dumbledore, but that does not diminish their worth, does it?

He also did those things to defeat Voldemort, because he had a sense of duty, his actions were expressive of his desire to do good, whereas Snape's actions were expressive of his love for Lily.

Also, please do not forget that the existence of the Patronus means Severus focused on happiness and joy where Lily was concerned. You can't make a Patrronus from despair and hate.

Of course.

[Daelin]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

I'd say that James's actions were more out of anger at Snape for having tried to expose Remus, and to get him expelled.

The train episode in DH tells us James hated Severus on sight. Unprovoked, completely nasty.

James is still the hero who set out to rescue his enemy from a werewolf.

There is no evidence to support that claim. It is equally possible that Severus was completely right, that James only saved him to keep from getting into serious trouble. That version is completely in line with the James Potter we see in every pensieve episode.

It is only in Snape's mind that James is a supplanter.

That's not true. We know that Jo was very careful in the words she chose, and the name James means 'supplanter'.

He was in love with his own version of Lily, not the person.

I would claim the evidence in Canon proves otherwise, and leave it at that.

Really, we have no canon to suggest that James ever initiated any attacks after he started going out with Lily. From what is described, it looks as though Snape, the jilted lover, took potshots at James whenever he got a chance, and James retaliated. All that has changed now is that we know that Snape had a reason to hate James and to attack him when he got a chance.

Actually, what we have about what happened after James got Lily to go out with him comes from Sirius and Remus, very pro-James, anti-Severus sources, and even they admit that James continued to go after Severus, though they claim it was retaliation. We also know from the scene in SWM that these continued attacks prove James was lying to Lily, when he promised he would never attack Severus again if Lily went out with him. We also know, since the pensieve scenes are unbiased, that it was always James who initiated the attacks in every scene we see.

Ron found it pretty funny when Harry used it on him. And I don't recall Ron holding a grudge against Seamus and Dean for laughing at him.

It was not deliberately used on Ron, was it? Ron was not tied up, was he? Ron was not choked with soap, was he? Harry did not publicly mock Ron and threaten to pull his underpants down, did he?

Completely different situations, in no way comparable.

Didn't Jo reveal in the webchat that Snape thought that becoming a DE would impress Lily?

I do not recall such a statement.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by BluecanaryLite

And yet Harry, who had a terrible home life, didn't have that problem.

There's a line of argument on this board that makes Snape out to be a victim of his circumstances, but that's only worth so much. Especially in JKR's books, where so much emphasis is placed on the choices people make. Ultimately, Snape chose his path.

True, however, think of the situations in which both Snape and Harry came into Hogwarts. Snape came out of a horrible home to arrive at Hogwarts. A dirty kid, who had one friend, emotional problems, and was never going to be the most popular kid at Hogwarts. When Harry came to Hogwarts, he was already a celebrity, although I do think Ron had good intentions when he met Harry, he could help but notice "You're Harry Potter!" and then, if I remember correctly, he told his parents that they had met Harry Potter on the train station. Harry's path was set out to be a different path than Snape's from the very beginning. Although many people were not sure of Harry's intentions when he arrived at Hogwarts, if he would the next great lord or not, Harry at 11 years old, completely ignorant to the Wizarding World just wanted to get through, however, he was already a celebrity. So although Harry and Snape came from similar homes, the second they entered Hogwarts, different paths were set out in front of them.

Originally Posted by Daelin

I do not recall such a statement.

Live Webchat Nithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

[alwaysme]

Yes Jo did say that Snape believed becoming a death eater would impress Lily. That seems to indicate he was quite insecure and was desperate for Lily to think highly of him. What Snape didn't realize was being himself was enough for Lily. I think it is sad and is common of teenage boys.

[Daelin]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

True, however, think of the situations in which both Snape and Harry came into Hogwarts. Snape came out of a horrible home to arrive at Hogwarts. A dirty kid, who had one friend, emotional problems, and was never going to be the most popular kid at Hogwarts. When Harry came to Hogwarts, he was already a celebrity, although I do think Ron had good intentions when he met Harry, he could help but notice "You're Harry Potter!" and then, if I remember correctly, he told his parents that they had met Harry Potter on the train station. Harry's path was set out to be a different path than Snape's from the very beginning. Although many people were not sure of Harry's intentions when he arrived at Hogwarts, if he would the next great lord or not, Harry at 11 years old, completely ignorant to the Wizarding World just wanted to get through, however, he was already a celebrity. So although Harry and Snape came from similar homes, the second they entered Hogwarts, different paths were set out in front of them.

Well said!

J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

To rephrase from DH, that certainly changes things, doesn't it? Good heavens, even I have to say that's surprisingly dense for Severus.

[BluecanaryLite]

Originally Posted by Daelin

The train episode in DH tells us James hated Severus on sight. Unprovoked, completely nasty.

Well, the provocation would've been Snape saying he wanted to be in Slytherin. Not that that's much of a provocation. James had probably heard Slytherin being bashed by his father, and associated it with the dark arts. According to Remus (who seems really to make an effort to be unbiased) Snape's affinity for the dark arts is why James and Sirius hated him.

There is no evidence to support that claim. It is equally possible that Severus was completely right, that James only saved him to keep from getting into serious trouble. That version is completely in line with the James Potter we see in every pensieve episode.

Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape can't forgive James for saving his life. This leads one to believe that James was motivated by an intent to save Snape's life (otherwise, why tell Harry about it), and that Snape came up with a reason to dismiss the James' actions as self-serving, because he couldn't stand the idea that James would help him. Dumbledore has the deepest understanding of just about everybody, so I'd go by his word. Also, James is a Gryffindor, and saving the life of one's enemy is a very Gryffindor-ish thing to do.

That's not true. We know that Jo was very careful in the words she chose, and the name James means 'supplanter'.

She also chose names simply because she liked the sound of them. That's how she named Harry and the Weasleys. I think it more likely that she chose "James" because it's a classic, old-fashioned name and she likes it.

Actually, what we have about what happened after James got Lily to go out with him comes from Sirius and Remus, very pro-James, anti-Severus sources,

I'm just going to put in a good word for Remus here. He takes a measured, objective-as-possible view of things, he acknowledges his own faults and the faults of his friends, and is polite and cordial to Snape.

I do not recall such a statement.

J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

I also find it interesting that Snape didn't understand why Lily was opposed to the dark arts, just like he didn't understand why she cared about her sister. His values were very different from hers.

[Beatifically]

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?
Sigh ... I hate the idea that James or Snape "deserved" Lily. I think that the person that should have been with Lily was the person that Lily fell in love with, and that was James. I don't think either Snape or James didn't "deserve" Lily.
Another thing I'd like to bring up is how everyone is calling James a jerk. Yes, I completely agree that his behavior when he was fifteen was horrible. Bullying people for no reason is disgusting. However, it's not fair to say James was a horrible person based on how he acted like on his teenager years. If you're going to judge James based on how he acted while a teenager and dislike him for that, why not judge Snape and Dumbledore? Snape actually aspired to be a Death Eater, and probably was fascinated with how Voldemort tortured and killed people. Dumbledore wanted to join Grindelwald in his attempts to have wizarding rule over muggles. Yet neither Snape nor Dumbledore were horrible people! They, along with James, became members of the Order of the Phoenix and actively fought against Voldemort!
What makes all three characters admirable is that once they realized what they were doing was wrong they changed. Isn't that what matters more - a person's choice? Their choices to try to become better men is what matters more in the end.

[BluecanaryLite]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

True, however, think of the situations in which both Snape and Harry came into Hogwarts. Snape came out of a horrible home to arrive at Hogwarts. A dirty kid, who had one friend, emotional problems, and was never going to be the most popular kid at Hogwarts. When Harry came to Hogwarts, he was already a celebrity, although I do think Ron had good intentions when he met Harry, he could help but notice "You're Harry Potter!" and then, if I remember correctly, he told his parents that they had met Harry Potter on the train station. Harry's path was set out to be a different path than Snape's from the very beginning. Although many people were not sure of Harry's intentions when he arrived at Hogwarts, if he would the next great lord or not, Harry at 11 years old, completely ignorant to the Wizarding World just wanted to get through, however, he was already a celebrity. So although Harry and Snape came from similar homes, the second they entered Hogwarts, different paths were set out in front of them.

Let's say that they each had a different set of paths to choose from.

Originally Posted by beatifically

13. Was James in the end more worthy of Lily's love than Snape?
Sigh ... I hate the idea that James or Snape "deserved" Lily. I think that the person that should have been with Lily was the person that Lily fell in love with, and that was James. I don't think either Snape or James didn't "deserve" Lily.
Another thing I'd like to bring up is how everyone is calling James a jerk. Yes, I completely agree that his behavior when he was fifteen was horrible. Bullying people for no reason is disgusting. However, it's not fair to say James was a horrible person based on how he acted like on his teenager years. If you're going to judge James based on how he acted while a teenager and dislike him for that, why not judge Snape and Dumbledore? Snape actually aspired to be a Death Eater, and probably was fascinated with how Voldemort tortured and killed people. Dumbledore wanted to join Grindelwald in his attempts to have wizarding rule over muggles. Yet neither Snape nor Dumbledore were horrible people! They, along with James, became members of the Order of the Phoenix and actively fought against Voldemort!
What makes all three characters admirable is that once they realized what they were doing was wrong they changed. Isn't that what matters more - a person's choice? Their choices to try to become better men is what matters more in the end.

Hear hear! Well said.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by BluecanaryLite

According to Remus (who seems really to make an effort to be unbiased) Snape's affinity for the dark arts is why James and Sirius hated him.

Since we now know Snape made a fairly public spectacle of his feelings for Lily by threatening to sleep in the hallway outside the entrance to the Gryffindor Common Room, I think we need to accept that Lupin was never forthcoming about Snape and James' possible motives in their rivalry. Snape may have been jealous, but not of James' Quidditch prowess as Lupin claimed. And James' own actions and words in SWM show that getting Lily to go out with him was a motive for him in his dealings with Snape, not just 'Dark Arts'.

Lupin sounded less biased than Sirius, certainly - but that does not make him reliable.

Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape can't forgive James for saving his life. This leads one to believe that James was motivated by an intent to save Snape's life (otherwise, why tell Harry about it), and that Snape came up with a reason to dismiss the James' actions as self-serving, because he couldn't stand the idea that James would help him.

I find the use of this quote rather funny. In and of itself it proves that Dumbledore was quite capable of lying if it suited his purposes. We now know the real reason Snape protected Harry, and it had little to do with James. Making James' action sound noble made the (false) motivation for Snape that Dumbledore was selling more plausible.

[Jessica]

The focus for this thread is SNAPE and LILY. James etc can be discussed only as they affect the relationship between Snape and Lily. Posts that are not on topic will be deleted.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Since we now know Snape made a fairly public spectacle of his feelings for Lily by threatening to sleep in the hallway outside the entrance to the Gryffindor Common Room, I think we need to accept that Lupin was never forthcoming about Snape and James' possible motives in their rivalry. Snape may have been jealous, but not of James' Quidditch prowess as Lupin claimed. And James' own actions and words in SWM show that getting Lily to go out with him was a motive for him in his dealings with Snape, not just 'Dark Arts'.

The one thing that is not considered in that analysis is the very real possiblilty that the marauders never knew that Snape wanted a romantic relationship with Lily. From what they'd seen, it was a platonic friendship, one which Lily had come to regret later, after the unforgivable public insult. What they saw could easily have been interpreted as a quarrel between friends. And I doubt that Lily spoke charitably of Snape after their 'break-up', or even talked about him at all.

Thus, why would they think that Snape was jealous of James's relationship with Lily? There were certainly a lot of things that Snape would have been jealous of James for.