The Iraq War v.4

[purplehawk]

Today's Washington Post lead story quotes a "senior U.S. military official" saying that the Blackwater story is worse than Abu Graib.

WaPo "'This is a nightmare,' said a senior U.S. military official. 'We had guys who saw the aftermath, and it was very bad. This is going to hurt us badly. It may be worse than Abu Ghraib, and it comes at a time when we're trying to have an impact for the long term.'"

On Capitol Hill, Representative Waxman has accused Condi Rice of interfering with the committee's work and preventing administration and Blackwater officials from providing pertinent information. Well, that wouldn't be anything new. This administration is well-known for its secrets.

[purplehawk]

The Washington Post introduced a special report yesterday on The Struggle to Defeat Roadside Bombs in Iraq. It's certainly worth a look-see.

Introduction: Left of Boom

Part 1: 'The IED problem is getting out of control. We've got to stop the bleeding.'

Part 2: 'There was a two-year learning curve . . . and a lot of people died in those two years'

[monster_mom]

Some good news out of Iraq.....

Originally Posted by AP

US military losses in Iraq for September stood at 70 on Sunday, the lowest monthly figure since July last year, according to an AFP tally based on Pentagon figures.

These stories were reported by the Voice of Iraq (VOI)....

TAJI, Iraq – Soldiers from the 2nd Iraqi Army Division, with U.S. Special Forces as advisers, detained 23 suspected al-Qaeda in Iraq terrorists during an intelligence-driven raid in Sharqat Sept. 29.

Acting on intelligence, Iraqi Soldiers raided targeted locations in Sharqat to disrupt a meeting between al-Qaeda in Iraq leadership. The meeting was held to elect a new emir since their previous one, Sabah Abdul-Rahman Abosh, was killed by Iraqi and Coalition Forces in a firefight Sept. 28. The detainees are suspected of conducting terrorist attacks in the area.

PATROL BASE INCHON, Iraq — Concerned local citizens turned in two caches to Coalition Forces at Patrol Base Inchon Sept. 26.

Soldiers from Company D, 4th Battalion, 31st Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) out of Fort Drum, N.Y., took the cache from the concerned citizens and inventoried the contents.

The first cache consisted of 13 bags of homemade explosives, which were tested positive for Styphnic Acid.

This follows a similar cache of 51 bags of HME that were turned in earlier in the day by concerned citizens to Soldiers of 4-31 Inf. Regt

.

Anbar, Sept 30, (VOI) – Unlike its long history of bloody incidents and armed clashes, Anbar’s Falluja city is living a renaissance of peace and hope this Ramadan with a drastic decrease in incidents of violence encouraging local residents to live their lives as fully as possible.

Unlike previous years, the city’s mosques are crowded with worshippers invoking God to relieve their distress and restore stability to their war-torn country.

Sheikh Khaled Ahmed Saleh, an imam at al-Badawi mosque in central Falluja, told the independent news agency Voices of Iraq (VOI), “We thank God that peace reigns over the city during this month. We were unable to perform Taraweeh prayers (evening prayers during Ramadan) in mosques over the past few years. But now we pray, go to the markets, and visit our relatives

[gillikitty2000]

Yea, my best friend in the entire world is over in Iraq, and he was hit with an IED, but was safe. What i found interesting when i was talkng to him was the fact that most of the military, even though they are getting hurt, and have a possibility of dieing, are still fully behind everything that there doing. he sent me this and i thought i should post it:

Military Statistics
Body: The Military
The average age of the military man is 19 years. He is a short haired,
tight-muscled kid who, under normal circumstances is considered by society as half
man, half boy not yet dry behind the ears, not old enough to buy a beer, but old enough
to die for his country. He never really cared much for work and he would rather wax his
own car than wash his father's; but he has never collected unemployment either.
He's a recent High School graduate;
he was probably an average student,
pursued some form of sport activities, drives a ten year old jalopy,
and has a steady girlfriend
that either broke up with him when he left,
or swears to be waiting when he returns from half a world away
He listens to rock and roll or hip-hop or rap or jazz or swing and 155mm howitzer.
He is 10 or 15 pounds lighter now
than when he was at home
because he is working or fighting
from before dawn to well after dusk.
He has trouble spelling,
thus letter writing is a pain for him,
but he can field strip a rifle in 30 seconds
and reassemble it in less time in the dark.
He can recite to you the nomenclature
of a machine gun or grenade launcher
and use either one effectively if he must.
He digs foxholes and latrines
and can apply first aid like a professional.
He can march until he is told to stop
or stop until he is told to march.
He obeys orders instantly and without hesitation,
but he is not without spirit or individual dignity. He is self-sufficient
He has two sets of fatigues:
he washes one and wears the other.
He keeps his canteens full and his feet dry.
he sometimes forgets to brush his teeth,
but never to clean his rifle.
He can cook his own meals,
mend his own clothes, and fix his own hurts.
If you're thirsty, he'll share his water with you; if you are hungry, his food.
He'll even split his ammunition with you
in the midst of battle when you run low.
He has learned to use his hands like weapons
and weapons like they were his hands.
He can save your life - or take it,
because that is his job.
He will often do twice the work of a civilian ,
draw half the pay
and still find ironic humor in it all.
He has seen more suffering
and death then he should have
in his short lifetime.
He has stood atop mountains of dead bodies,
and helped to create them.
He has wept in public and in private,
for friends who have fallen in combat
and is unashamed.
He feels every note of the National Anthem vibrate through his body
while at rigid attention,
while tempering the burning desire to
'square-away' those around him
who haven't bothered to stand,
remove their hat, or even stop talking.
In an odd twist, day in and day out,
far from home,
he defends their right to be disrespectful.
Just as did his Father, Grandfather,
and Great-grandfather,
he is paying the price for our freedom . Beardless or not, he is not a boy.
He is the American Fighting Man
that has kept this country free
for over 200 years.
He has asked nothing in return,
except our friendship and understanding.
Remember him, always,
for he has earned our respect
and admiration with his blood.
And now we have women over there in the danger,
doing their part in this tradition
of going to War when our nation calls us to do so.
As you go to bed tonight,
remember this shot..
A short lull, a little shade
and a picture of loved ones in their helmet's







Prayer wheel for our military... [staff edit].

Prayer Wheel

Lord God Almighty, thank you for you mercy and faithfulness. Thank you for your protection both at home and overseas. Remember those who serve, especially the ones who are risking their lives day in and day out to make the world a safer better place. We commit them to your Divine protection Lord, give them success and bring them home safely. Amen

Prayer :

When you receive this,

please stop for a moment and say a prayer
for our ground troops in Afghanistan, sailors on ships, and airmen in the air,
and for those in Iraq .

There is nothing attached...

This can be very powerful.......

Of all the gifts you could give a Marine, US Soldier, Sailor, Coastguardsman, or Airman, prayer is the very best one.
I can't break this one,
This is a ribbon for soldiers fighting in Iraq. Pass it on to everyone and pray.

[Alastor]

I'm sorry, but regardless of how noble the intent is, we don't allow spamming. So everyone who wants to pass on this prayer, please don't do it here.

[purplehawk]

Another retired general has spoken out against the Iraq war and even states that, if some of America’s current political leaders were in the military, they would have been relieved of command or court-martialed long ago. I doubt there are many questions on which political leaders he's referring to.

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez said today that a "failure of the national political leadership" is responsible for the "nightmare" this war has deteriorated into. He also said that "neglect and incompetence" by the National Security Council has hugely contributed to creating an intractable situation in Iraq, but he also had bricks for the U.S. Congress and the State Department under both Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice for failing to stop Bush and Cheney in their tracks.

Of the surge, Sanchez called it "a desperate attempt by the administration to stave off defeat" for enough months to get out of office and blame the debacle on the next president, particularly if that president is a Democrat. Asked when he first knew the war was on the skids, Sanchez chose the date he arrived in Iraq: June 15, 2003. Wasn't that close to Bush's "Mission Accomplished" stunt?

I sure wish some of these guys had been less disciplined and more principled in the months before the invasion. There have been so many of them speak out after the fact... when it is too late.

A nightmare with no end in sight

[Morgoth]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I sure wish some of these guys had been less disciplined and more principled in the months before the invasion. There have been so many of them speak out after the fact... when it is too late.

Uniformed Code of Military Justice is why. Asking a soldier to be less disciplined is ironic considering that a lack of discipline is what usually gets soldiers into trouble with things such as Abu Ghraib. You can't have it both ways, Purplehawk. A soldier is either a soldier and obeys the military law or they disregard such laws and become a loose canon and a liability for the military and the American public. Picking and choosing what to adhere to and what not to is not the actions of a good soldier or any uniformed officer.

In addition, we do not know just how many senior military officials did in fact disagree with the pre-Iraq invasion. We don't know the extent of which official commentary was made through the proper channels in objection to the war. The media is not part of the military channel of communication in this matter. It's an afterthought, usually a long time after when it's become an historical debate over a current affairs one.

And I think a bit of tact is in order for those who have served or who are have spouses that are serving right now.

[monster_mom]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Another retired general has spoken out against the Iraq war and even states that, if some of America’s current political leaders were in the military, they would have been relieved of command or court-martialed long ago. I doubt there are many questions on which political leaders he's referring to.

Sanchez has a point, one which many (including President Bush and Speaker Pelosi) have made over the past several months. His point, if I read his comments correctly, is that winning the military portion of the war will mean nothing if the political hurdles in Iraq aren't also overcome by the Iraqi's. On that I have to agree with him - if the elected officials in Iraq don't have will to do what is necessary to provide a functioning government for their fellow countrymen then there is little the US or any other outside body can do to ensure their future. I wouldn't give up just yet - the Iraqi's have had little to be optomistic about these past few years - and I hope that quelling the insurgents will give the government enough breating room to focus on what they need to do to ensure their future.

I do, however, take Sanchez's comments about the surge with a grain of salt as he hasn't served in Iraq in about three years. During Sanchez tenure in Iraq (mid 2003 to mid 2004), the insurgency began rearing it's ugly head and the events at Abu Ghraib were revealed. Sanchez was implicated in the scandal and was formally reprimanded for his role in it. According to a Stars and Stripes article about Sanchez's comments,

Abu Ghraib was a sore subject Friday for Sanchez, who lambasted the media for using phrases like "dictatorial and somewhat dense," "liar" and "torturer" to describe him.

"I also refused to talk to the European Stars and Stripes for the last two years of my command in Germany, for their extreme bias and single-minded focus on Abu Ghraib," he said.

None of which means that his point, that resolving political concerns in Iraq are vital to ensuring it's continued existance, is invalid, but it does explain some of the anger he feels toward the Bush Administraiton and Congress.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Uniformed Code of Military Justice is why. Asking a soldier to be less disciplined is ironic considering that a lack of discipline is what usually gets soldiers into trouble with things such as Abu Gharib. You can't have it both ways, Purplehawk. A soldier is either a soldier and obeys the military law or they disregard such laws and become a loose canon and a liability for the military and the American public. Picking and choosing what to adhere to and what not to is not the actions of a good soldier or any uniformed officer.

I wouldn't favor an undisciplined military elite. What I meant was where were these guys in the fall of 2002, when Bush began his PR push for invading Iraq? The question is entirely rhetorical because we know what happened to those military types who spoke out against aspects of the game plan favored by the White House and the Pentagon. Look at General Shinseki.

As for those who have served, or are serving, my thoughts are never far from them. I would so rather have them home with their families, out of harm's way.

ETA: My grandfather served in France in WWI, my father in the European theatre in WWII, my husband in Korea, and my brother in Vietnam. I understand the silencing of their voices.

[Alastor]

But even then, purplehawk, don't forget that this fourth version of the thread is about looking ahead, not back.

[purplehawk]

That's so true, Alastor. Can you see a light at the end of this tunnel? I'm having trouble doing so.

[SageThyme]

Originally Posted by Purplehawk

I understand the silencing of their voices.

The silencing of military voices is of the soldier's choosing. All soldiers swear an oath and by their integrity, honor, morality and discipline they choose to obey the Uniform Military Code of Justice. All the soldiers within the US forces are strictly voluntary.

There are no "persons" telling them not to speak. They have the good sense and decency to recognize the sacrifices and hard work of their fellow soldiers. They choose to not impugn the honor, integrity, or morality of those they serve with - whether lower in rank or higher in rank than themselves.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by SageThyme

There are no "persons" telling them not to speak. They have the good sense and decency to recognize the sacrifices and hard work of their fellow soldiers. They choose to not impugn the honor, integrity, or morality of those they serve with - whether lower in rank or higher in rank than themselves.

Yet quite a few have come home and spoken out against a lot. In one case, I recall seven soldiers then serving in Iraq penning an Op-Ed for the New York Times. A couple of soldiers from that group have since been killed in action over there. And there is no end of retired officers who've been in the press criticising the bungling of this war over the past few years.

Here's a link to their op-ed: The War As We Saw It

and the military's response:

Military Responds To 7 Soldiers' Critical Op-Ed in 'NYT' On Iraq

[Alastor]

Expressing opinions afterwards is not the same as the insubordination you originally asked for.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I sure wish some of these guys had been less disciplined and more principled in the months before the invasion.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by Alastor

Expressing opinions afterwards is not the same as the insubordination you originally asked for.

You're right. I just wish someone - anyone - would stop it, Alastor. We can - and should - continue to blame the Bush administration for the horrors of Iraq. But we should also question ourselves for standing idly by while the war is mismanaged, people are tortured, the budget deficit has blown sky-high, and whatever is left of our country's good name is lessened with each day that passes. It’s time to confront the darker reality that we are lying to ourselves.

[Alastor]

I have deleted a post putting words in my mouth I never said. I've posted a number of times in different DoIMC threads that when you quote make sure you tell who you quote. It goes without saying that the quoted one has to be named correctly.

It's really time now to leave the questions about insubordination behind us. They don't tell us how to proceed from now in Iraq. One more word about it and the thread becomes closed.

[purplehawk]

Can we talk about the moving definition of what constitutes torture, and the question of whether or not the United States is doing it?

[Alastor]

Not if you haven't proof that it is happening in Iraq now.

[monster_mom]

The Outlook section of the Washington Post has an opinion piece written by someone named Jim Golby who is apparently serving in Iraq (or just recently returned from Iraq). The piece he wrote is about his own personal experience in Iraq and the changes he's seen in recent months. It isn't particulary political, but is an interesting and informative read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101201888.html

The Post also ran this editorial about the numbers in Iraq. In short, the story states that it is becoming increasingly evident that the surge (and Sunni leaders turning against the insurgents) is producing lower death tolls. The editorial went on to say that

"This doesn't necessarily mean the war is being won. U.S. military commanders have said that no reduction in violence will be sustainable unless Iraqis reach political solutions -- and there has been little progress on that front. Nevertheless, it's looking more and more as though those in and outside of Congress who last month were assailing Gen. Petraeus's credibility and insisting that there was no letup in Iraq's bloodshed were -- to put it simply -- wrong"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101301071.html

[WarriorEowyn]

I disagree. Looking at the record of coalition casualties, it is too early to say whether or not there has been any sustained decrease in casualties, and US casualties went up sharply after the surge was begun. By August the numbers were down to the pre-surge levels. The last two months have seen a sharp fall in coalition and Iraqi casualties, but that isn't enough time, given the fluctuations you see in the graphs over the whole period of the war, to say that the surge has been successful.