Why Doesn't God or Jesus Fix the World?

[Tiberius]

Over in the Spirit Division there is a thread to discuss this, but the thread does get a little heated at times, and as the Spirit Division isn't really meant for that sort of this, I've started this thread to allow for such a discussion.

Anyway, the world we live in can be pretty cruel at times. bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, and there are natural disasters that cause pain and suffering. Jesus and/or God would be able to fix these problems, but they appear to be inactive in the matter.

So a few questions to get the discussion started...

• Is the world in a situation that needs fixing, or is this the way it was intended?
• When the Snake tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (which resulted in Sin being introduced to the world, according to Christian lore), is this what caused the world's problems? If so, why hasn't God undone this damage?
• Is there something preventing God or Jesus fixing the world right now (whether it is a choice on their part or not)?
• Is intervention by God or Jesus the only way to fix the world?

As an atheist, I think that the readon that God and Jesus don't fix the world is simply because they don't exist. However, I'm sure there are many who disagree with me, and in any case, this thread isn't to discuss the existence or otherwise of God. Many believers have presented reasons why they believe God and Jesus haven't fixed the world. Others don't think these explanations stand up to examination.

So, believers, in this thread I'd like to discuss the reasons that God doesn't "snap his fingers" and fix the world, and for those on the other side of the coin, why do you think that these reasons are incorrect?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Nice opening post, Tiberius.

Now, a note for all posters in this thread: it will stay open if discussion centers on why or why not God doesn't fix the world. It will get closed if it turns into an atheist vs. Christian brawl, and it will get closed very quickly if ad hominem attacks become the tactic of the day. Refute people on the soundness of their arguments, people, not on their beliefs.

[AptPupil]

OPINION ALERT:
I think God doesn't fix the world, because he watches us at a distance without intervening too much. God seems alot more realistic when you get rid of the cartoonish magician-like quality that some people give him.

[karatekid]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Is the world in a situation that needs fixing, or is this the way it was intended?

I think that's a really interesting point, and the honest answer IMO is that thw world does need fixing, but we need to do it ourselves. I don't think that human nature would allow it any other way, but then, in a strange way I think that human nature means there will always be a situation in the world that needs fixing, and that if a 'perfect' soceity was created, perhaps by God 'fixing' the world, we would simply mess it up again somehow ... if that makes sense. Any fixing that can be done we need to do ourselves, in order to learn from mistakes, although I think there will always be mistakes to make .

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by AptPupil

OPINION ALERT:
I think God doesn't fix the world, because he watches us at a distance without intervening too much. God seems alot more realistic when you get rid of the cartoonish magician-like quality that some people give him.

Ah, but that would tend to invalidate much of the Bible...

[UAM]

If a god was to step in and fix the world then there would be no reason for us to act any differently. We would know that we can carry on messing up the world and wrecking lives safe in the knowledge that when things get a little bit out of hand this god will walk in a fix everything for us again.

[Necro]

In our texts, it is written that the Cosmos, consisting of 14 Universes, of which ours is the 7th, is Leela Vibhuti (Playground), i.e., this is the sport of the Lord.

But do not confuse this by thinking He purposely wants us to suffer. Hindu Texts also say that we were once Spirit Souls who longed to visit His Leela Vibhuti. Hence, He granted us that request. Those who didn't want to, stayed there.

Actually, according to Hindu Cosmology, the world is divided into 4 Time Cycles - Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga, Kali Yuga. The First 3 Yugas are ruled by goodness, but the Age of Kali is rife with evil and suffering. We are living in that age now.

At the end of each Yuga, some sort of calamity always occurs to such an extent that the Lord Himself incarnates to put an end to it. The most recent of His avatars (besides Lord Buddha) was Lord Krishna, who came at the end of the Dwapara Yuga. He describes His incarnations thus:

"Whenever and wherever there's a decline in religious practice, descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion - at that time I descend myself.

In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent myself, age after age."

It means that only when things have reached an apex, an utter status of complete evil, will the Lord come. In this Age, although there is a lot of suffering, good things also exist. We still have courts and justice system to dish out law. However, it is prophesised that such things will progressively vanish till it reaches a state of 100% evil. Then He will come to destroy evil and recreate the First Age of Blessedness again, i.e., the Krita Yuga. The Cycle of all 4 Ages is eternal but all of us, even the most evil souls, will attain Salvation at the end of the Yuga.

Until then, He waits and hopes that we can correct ourtselves. The estimated date of His arrival, according to the Vedas, is 432,000 AD. We are 5000 years into it, and the first 15000 years are called as the 'Golden Period' of the Kali Yuga, where Evil is counterbalanced by some amount of Good. But after 10000 years from now, the Kali Yuga picks up pace so that Evil really starts to dominate.

[Tiberius]

Hey, a Hindu. I haven't seen a Hindu interpretation of this topic before, welcome!

I'm rather unfamiliar with the Hindu religion, could you clarify what you mean by the sport of the lord? Sport in what way?

[Necro]

The Vedas say that He created everything simply for His pastimes. This is further explained by the fact that we believe that He incarnates as an avatar from time to time, to establish law. He could normally do that without manifesting, but since He wishes to indulge in the pastimes of the common souls and to communicate with us, He descends.

This is the 'Sport'. He is literally playing with us. All of us are entities descended from Him. The Lord has a form, although He can appear formless if He likes. He has senses. But unlike us, He is able to control His senses, whereas we cannot and succumb to lust, death, disease, etc. The Lord can indulge and yet be detached. We develop desire or hate, anger or happiness, depending on our emotions. He is eternal, and His form is eternal. We are eternal, but only by spirit, not our body.

Despite having a form, the Lord is neither moving nor unmoving, neither living nor non-living. He has no beginning or end, and He is the beginning, middle and the end. He is neither male, female or in-between, but since we perceive Him as male (due to our chauvinistic natures, actually), we call Him 'Husband to all'. So, He is male, and everyone of us, is female.

He has proven this by incarnating as a Man, Woman and Animal many times.

Thus, the Lord is the Supersoul, and we are the Souls. If the Lord is compared to a Human Body, we are the Fingernails. Just as we can see our fingernails simultaneously, He is omnipotent and can see us all simultaneously.

This world, and the 13 other Universes, are all temporary. There are numerous Demi-Gods living in other planets. But Lord Vishnu is Supreme, and His abode Vaikunta. In fact, the size of the 14 Universes constitute less than 1/4 of Vaikunta.

[potterposse]

I thnk God is testing our faith and also seeing what we can also fix ourselves since he gave us brains. It could also be his way on teaching people what is humane and what isn't.

[Hysteria]

I thnk God is testing our faith and also seeing what we can also fix ourselves since he gave us brains. It could also be his way on teaching people what is humane and what isn't.

But why would He do that by killing so many innocent people including children?

[FingolfinKing]

First of all, God doesn't kill anyone, we do a good enough job of that. The essential reason for God not "fixing" the world is that we have free will. That's right, the damage we have done isn't God's fault, it's ours. I personally like freedom. We have the choice to be good people, just look at the good people of our times. The story of Eden is a myth in my opinion. I don't believe it literally happened. The message is that humans have the choice to sin. And we do.

Why should God take away our freedom to fix mistakes we create every day? I like being free. The terrible world? So fix it. Not God, own up to it yourself and fix it. Be a good person, and the world becomes a better place. Too often do humans rely on everyone but themselves to fix their problems.

God does not govern us, but he gives us the choice to follow his way. That is why Jesus existed to begin with. He was a human being, and he showed us that a life of faith was and is possible.

[Michael_22]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

First of all, God doesn't kill anyone, we do a good enough job of that. The essential reason for God not "fixing" the world is that we have free will. That's right, the damage we have done isn't God's fault, it's ours. I personally like freedom. We have the choice to be good people, just look at the good people of our times. The story of Eden is a myth in my opinion. I don't believe it literally happened. The message is that humans have the choice to sin. And we do.

Why should God take away our freedom to fix mistakes we create every day? I like being free. The terrible world? So fix it. Not God, own up to it yourself and fix it. Be a good person, and the world becomes a better place. Too often do humans rely on everyone but themselves to fix their problems.

God does not govern us, but he gives us the choice to follow his way. That is why Jesus existed to begin with. He was a human being, and he showed us that a life of faith was and is possible.

Nice post.

I would like to add on to this as well.

In our society today, it's become all to common for humans to blame their problems on someone else. A couple months ago in Time Magazine I read an article from someone who swore that it was not someone's fault that they were fat, but that it was their friends' fault. I could not believe my eyes when I read his article.

This article sums up what our world has turned into. Today, a scapegoat is not just as good as an excuse - it's better. No one ever thinks it is their fault that they did something wrong. No one ever believes they are to be held accountable for their wrongdoings. This state of mind in which we blame others for our shortcomings really needs to be stopped, in my opinion. One of my favorite sayings I believe sums this up perfectly: "You are responsible for your own actions."

Don't blame God for the problems you have created. Instead, own up to them and fix them yourself. It's all about obtaining better understanding, and in the end, becoming a better person.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Necro

The Vedas say that He created everything simply for His pastimes. This is further explained by the fact that we believe that He incarnates as an avatar from time to time, to establish law. He could normally do that without manifesting, but since He wishes to indulge in the pastimes of the common souls and to communicate with us, He descends.

A question...

From what you've said, I gather that we people are spirits who wanted to visit the universe that he created. So the Lord let us come. And we're now living in a period of time that is filled with suffering.

But the lord can still prevent that suffering, yes? Why is the Kali Yuga filled with suffering? Does it have to be filled with suffering, or can the Lord change it?

Originally Posted by potterposse

I thnk God is testing our faith and also seeing what we can also fix ourselves since he gave us brains. It could also be his way on teaching people what is humane and what isn't.

As I asked back in the other thread, how could this be the purpose of the test? God would already know the extent of our faith, wouldn't he? And he'd also know what we could fix for ourselves as well? And he doesn't need to let us suffer to allow us to learn things, he could impart the information and even experience just by snapping his fingers.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

First of all, God doesn't kill anyone, we do a good enough job of that.

There's plenty of instances in the Bible when God kills people.

The essential reason for God not "fixing" the world is that we have free will. That's right, the damage we have done isn't God's fault, it's ours.

Leaving aside the whole predestination/free will debate (there's already a thread to discuss that ), I don't see why God refuses to help just because we caused the problem. Many times I have seen people refer to the relationship between God and Humans as that of a father and his children. But if the children get themselves into a situation that causes such terrible suffering and even death, isn't it the father's responsibility to help? And what of the things that we don't cause, yet still cause suffering, like earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, storms etc. Those things aren't our fault.

Why should God take away our freedom to fix mistakes we create every day? I like being free. The terrible world? So fix it. Not God, own up to it yourself and fix it. Be a good person, and the world becomes a better place. Too often do humans rely on everyone but themselves to fix their problems.

A valid point, but according to the Bible God has intervened in Human affairs many times. This claim (while somewhat logical) doesn't fit in with what the Bible tells us about God.

God does not govern us, but he gives us the choice to follow his way. That is why Jesus existed to begin with. He was a human being, and he showed us that a life of faith was and is possible.

A few things about that... First, Jesus didn't have faith - he knew for sure. Secondly, all people (according to the Bible) are born with sin, whereas Jesus was not. That's what let him live without sin. No Human could ever live as jesus did, so that isn't possible.

Originally Posted by Michael_22

Don't blame God for the problems you have created. Instead, own up to them and fix them yourself. It's all about obtaining better understanding, and in the end, becoming a better person.

But what about all the suffering that the victims don't cause? I'm not just referring to natural disasters, but also to the person who is mugged and beaten severely, the child bullied at school, the child who is killed by his parents. They are not problems that were created by the victims.

[Necro]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

A question...

From what you've said, I gather that we people are spirits who wanted to visit the universe that he created. So the Lord let us come. And we're now living in a period of time that is filled with suffering.

But the lord can still prevent that suffering, yes? Why is the Kali Yuga filled with suffering? Does it have to be filled with suffering, or can the Lord change it?

In the past Yugas, people had incredible minds, with enough sense to understand the divine. However, in the Kali Yuga, it has been decreed that Age, Vigour, Memory, Wisdom and Perception will progressively decline.

Now, if we were to live happily without suffering, we would never think of Him. See, it is by our wish that we entered this Universe. And in doing so, we become trapped in this temporary world, and the Lord is hidden from us by His Yoga-Maya. And since He cares only about the soul and not about the body (which is, to Him, an shell or protective covering), He tries to make us remember Him by these mishaps.

The Law of Karma is also present here. Those who commit sins in their past birth are born again and probably cleanse their Karma by enduring sufferings in their current birth. The Lord does not influence our minds...He only gave us a body. It is we who commit sins.

Those who commit sins, are born again and again, and until they cleanse it all, they suffer. Those who are good people, but still suffer at the hands of others probably do so because of their Karma from a previous birth. How it all began is a mystery...kind of like asking which came first, the egg or the chicken.

If an individual lives happily, its proof of him having no Karma. But again, if a happy individual is also an atheist, he is born again and again, but without any sufferings (if he remains good) until he realises God.

However, Hindus believe that devotional service to Lord Krishna is the best solution. There are two types of Karma, Greater and Lesser (I forget their Sanskrit names). The greater Karma is washed off simply by offering service to Lord Krishna. The Lesser Karma is very insignificant and won't hamper an individual greatly.

3 types of devotional service exist in the Kali Yuga: 1) People who ask Him for material things, 2) People who ask Him for liberation, 3) People who simply love Him and do not even care about liberation.

[FingolfinKing]

Most of the post is speculation on both our parts, Tiberius, however I must disagree with you on Jesus. Jesus was born as a human, and he was prone to all of the human temptations. In human form, Jesus did not have the majority of his divine powers, obviously. He was also born with human ignorance. From his birth, Jesus did not "know" that God existed, because he was a human. In order for the concept of Jesus' death and resurrection to be plausible, Jesus had to be a regular human being with the same weaknesses. Indeed, as Jesus is dying on the cross, he asks God why he has been abandoned. This is a very obvious sign of questioning one's faith.

Finally, on the subject of faith, I think you might be (no offense) woefully ignorant, seeing as how you have never experienced it. When you have true faith in God, as some people do, you do indeed know that God exists. It's not knowledge that you simply acquire, it's an understanding of God that you come to on a personal level. Jesus was not born as a God, he was born as a human, and he came to faith of his own accord. He could easily have said no, and in the Garden, he very much wanted to. But he didn't, because he stayed true to God.

He didn't have to. Jesus is God, but Jesus in his humanity was also not God, but one of us. It's a difficult concept to explain, but trust me when I say that Jesus was not born with undying faith. Also, in Catholic belieft baptism serves to erase original sin, which is simply a fancy term for our world being sinful.

It's not us, a sin, being born into a world. It's us, a person, being born into a sinful world. The sin is already there. That's why it's original.

[mexicant]

Okay, I'll admit I haven't read other poster's responses yet because I don't want them to temper what I am going to say or make me say things I don't want to in my first post on this subject.

I personally believe that yes, our world is in desperate need of a fix. However, according to my beliefs, God and Jesus are planning and working on "fixing it", in a sense. Right now my beliefs are that Jesus is getting things ready. I don't believe this world will be fixed in the sense that you seem to asking, Tibs...the inhabitants will be judged and sorted, and the world will be given a make-over of sorts, after one thousand years.
The reason God hasn't just undone the damage done in the Garden of Eden is because the punishment for disobeying was death and a life of toil. It's like a parent punishing a child for an extended period of time (as happens when a child is grounded) after they do something wrong. And God doesn't just fix things because people need to learn; I have a toddler, and as a parent I need to allow him to explore and learn some things on his own. Even when I try to keep him from hurting himself, sometimes the only way he will really learn is through disobeying me and dealing with the consequences. God is our Heavenly Father and needs to parent us in the same way.
It is a choice and it is following a set plan that is keeping God from action, but I believe the time for action is drawing ever nearer.

As far as God being the only way the world can be fixed, I think it is. We have done so much damage to our planet and to ourselves that I think we are beyond the point of making things better on our own.

[myndon]

I believe in the Law of the Suppressed Correlative. That is to say, if you have two polar opposites ( good and evil, black and white, life and death ), one cannot exist without the other (because you can define good as "not evil" and vice-versa).

So, if God were to simply "fix" the world and make all the problems go away...would it really be "good"? Simply put, no. There would no evil, and thus by the Law of the Suppressed Correlative there is no good.

Evil is...well a neccessary evil . That's not to say it's okay to sit back and do nothing...people who are "good" people try and actively reduce the amount of evil in the work under the full knowledge that it would be impossible to eradicate it completely...and those who are "evil" contribute more to the pain and suffering that's been growing to alarming trends in recent years...

That's not to say that God will refuse to do anything...He helps "fix" things by inspiring others to be "good" people and take a stand against the growing evilness of the world...and maybe if enough people get inspired, we can hold evil at bay for awhile...

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Necro

In the past Yugas, people had incredible minds, with enough sense to understand the divine. However, in the Kali Yuga, it has been decreed that Age, Vigour, Memory, Wisdom and Perception will progressively decline.

However, science has given us an increase in the age we can live to, allowed us to remain more vigourous, helped prevent memory loss, and increased our knowledge about the way the universe works (which I would say is a form of wisdom and perception).

Now, if we were to live happily without suffering, we would never think of Him.

Why is this?

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Most of the post is speculation on both our parts, Tiberius, however I must disagree with you on Jesus. Jesus was born as a human, and he was prone to all of the human temptations. In human form, Jesus did not have the majority of his divine powers, obviously. He was also born with human ignorance. From his birth, Jesus did not "know" that God existed, because he was a human. In order for the concept of Jesus' death and resurrection to be plausible, Jesus had to be a regular human being with the same weaknesses. Indeed, as Jesus is dying on the cross, he asks God why he has been abandoned. This is a very obvious sign of questioning one's faith.

If Jesus lived his life as a human, then the Biblical claims that Jesus is a part of God would seem to be incorrect.

Finally, on the subject of faith, I think you might be (no offense) woefully ignorant, seeing as how you have never experienced it. When you have true faith in God, as some people do, you do indeed know that God exists. It's not knowledge that you simply acquire, it's an understanding of God that you come to on a personal level. Jesus was not born as a God, he was born as a human, and he came to faith of his own accord. He could easily have said no, and in the Garden, he very much wanted to. But he didn't, because he stayed true to God.

And I'm afraid that you'd be wrong. For the first twenty years or so of my life, I was indeed a believer. I've also got a friend (who is a member here on CoS) who was a very strong believer and came to atheism just recently.

He didn't have to. Jesus is God, but Jesus in his humanity was also not God, but one of us. It's a difficult concept to explain, but trust me when I say that Jesus was not born with undying faith. Also, in Catholic belieft baptism serves to erase original sin, which is simply a fancy term for our world being sinful.

If Jesus is God, how can your earlier claim "Jesus did not "know" that God existed, because he was a human" be true? For him to be unsure of God's existence would be to be unsure of his own existence.

It's not us, a sin, being born into a world. It's us, a person, being born into a sinful world. The sin is already there. That's why it's original.

This confuses me. Why would God blame us for a sinful world? Is it because of Adam and Eve?

Originally Posted by mexicant

The reason God hasn't just undone the damage done in the Garden of Eden is because the punishment for disobeying was death and a life of toil. It's like a parent punishing a child for an extended period of time (as happens when a child is grounded) after they do something wrong. And God doesn't just fix things because people need to learn; I have a toddler, and as a parent I need to allow him to explore and learn some things on his own. Even when I try to keep him from hurting himself, sometimes the only way he will really learn is through disobeying me and dealing with the consequences. God is our Heavenly Father and needs to parent us in the same way.

But still, this has God punishing the people alive for the crimes of others. Adam and Eve (if Genesis is true) did deserve to be punished. However, for God to continue punishing people after they died is unfair. it's like punishing a little boy because his grandfather committed a crime 60 years ago.

Also, you say that sometimes the only way for your toddler to learn is to disobey and deal with the consequences. I agree with this, to an extent.

"No, Timmy, don't play with the bull ant, it will bite you." If the kid keeps playing, then I can see how it is justifiable to just let the kid get bitten. he'll get a healthy respect for bull ants after that.

But look at the suffering in the world. People dying and all that. Would you let your child learn from his mistakes if it involved him getting killed? Maimed for life? Contracting a terrible disease? of course not. As a loving parent, you let your child learn from his mistakes, but only if the mistake costs less than the lesson learned.

However, we do not see that with God. The cost of the lessons is often as high as possible - death. What lessons do we learn from that death? What lessons are learned from kids getting cancer? Or millions drowning in tsunamis that strike third world countries?

I can't see how the claim that God allows suffering to teach us lessons can be justified.

Originally Posted by myndon

I believe in the Law of the Suppressed Correlative. That is to say, if you have two polar opposites ( good and evil, black and white, life and death ), one cannot exist without the other (because you can define good as "not evil" and vice-versa).

So, if God were to simply "fix" the world and make all the problems go away...would it really be "good"? Simply put, no. There would no evil, and thus by the Law of the Suppressed Correlative there is no good.

But that's how it was in the Garden of Eden....

[Stephenie]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

A few things about that... First, Jesus didn't have faith - he knew for sure. Secondly, all people (according to the Bible) are born with sin, whereas Jesus was not. That's what let him live without sin. No Human could ever live as jesus did, so that isn't possible.

Your right, Jesus didnt have faith, but he did teach us to live a life a faith. That was his message to Thomas. Again you are right, all fall short of the glory of God, but that shouldnt stop people from trying to live their lives like Jesus did, and thankfully, when I do fall short, I have an amazing saviour that will forgive and let me try again.

As for God fixing the world, The Lord gives and takes away. God doesnt always expect us to fix all the problems of the world, but I do believe that he does hear and respond to prayer and proves that he is a compassionate God that loves us. If God just fixed the world and made every day easy and care free then what would we have to look forward to in Heaven? This world and all the hurts that go with it is just temporary.