Why Doesn't God or Jesus Fix the World?

[FingolfinKing]

Don't agree. God knows when and where I shall die depending on which choice I make. There are infinite possibilities of my death, depending on what choice I make. God knows the outcome of each choice I make in the long run. That's my opinion.

Technically speaking Masterfroggy, if God's omnipotent, He can, as you say, make us do whatever and still worship Him. He CAN, but He doesn't. God is evil because he gives us choice, you say? God is evil because he doesn't fix the choices of those who go against His will?

Again, your quote is an extremely literal interpretation. "Nothing happens that is not God's will." Well, obviously, seeing as how He created us. You can, however go against God's will. You're failing to realize something that is mentioned a lot in the Bible: we have the choice to follow God, or not to. It's God's desire that we follow Him, His will is that we have the choice.

So you don't actually prove anything, because if God's omnipotent, he can totally disregard your logic and make me right anyway. Don't argue omnipotence, because none of us can understand it anyway, and any logic we use doesn't apply to omnipotent beings.

There's a difference between being "able" to do something, and actually doing it. I could kill a person tomorrow, but I don't want to. Perhaps God knows that the best way to fix the world is by letting us learn from experience, and through His Word. You think you have a better solution? That's nice, but, as you said, God is outside of Time, so He knows all the possibilities and outcomes. You don't.

Case closed.

[Stephenie]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

But until then, he knew for sure. Why did he suddenly start to doubt his own memories? If I am seperated from my daughter, I don't suddenly start doubting her existence...

Sin separates us from God. Jesus took on our sins when he died on the cross. He did not doubt Gods existence, he just was no longer conected to him like he was before. Jesus was Gods son amd he was sin free, and therefor had a relationship with God that we can not. But when he was on the cross, that relationship was lost, because God will have nothing to do with sin, that is why we have Jesus, to cleanse us of our sin. So what I am trying to say is that Jesus did not doubt Gods existence, he was crying out because God had left him, when Jesus needed him most.

[Michael_22]

Originally Posted by Masterfroggy

If god cannot do something then he/it cannot be god. The meaning of gods Omnipotent is such that, were he unable to do but a single thing his powers are not that of a god. The older copies of the bible do claim that god was omnipotent.god is all powerfull, omnipotent, despite what Paul claimed.

Wrong. It is in fact a logical fallacy to say that God can do anything. If he could, then theoretically, he could create a stone heavier than he could pick up, or a square circle. This would violate his own nature and existence. Therefore, if he did something against his nature, he would be self-contradictory and if he were self-contradictory, it would not be possible.

Carm.Org states it this way:

Http://www.carm.org Also, since a rock, by definition, is not infinitely big, then it isn't logically possible to make a rock, something that is finite in size, be infinite in size (no longer a rock) since only God is infinite in size. At dictionary.com, a rock is defined as a "Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone. a) A relatively small piece or fragment of such material. b) A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak. c) A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust." A rock, by definition is not infinitely large. So, to say that the rock must be so big that God cannot pick it up is to say that the rock is no longer a rock. What the critics are asking is that God become self contradictory as a proof He doesn't exist. Their assertion is illogical from the start. So what they are doing is trying to get God to be illogical. They want to use illogic to prove God doesn't exist instead of logic. It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.

[FingolfinKing]

I don't agree Stephenie. I don't believe that Jesus was any more connected to God than we are (conciosuly). He simply made a choice that no one else has.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Don't agree. God knows when and where I shall die depending on which choice I make. There are infinite possibilities of my death, depending on what choice I make. God knows the outcome of each choice I make in the long run. That's my opinion.

If God knows the outcome, then there is only one possibility, not infinite.

[FingolfinKing]

Wrong actually. God knows the outcomes. Which choice I make is not defeinite, and I don't believe in fate. Neither does Catholicism as a whole, actually. Let's say I may choice A instead of B. God knows what will happen if I make choice A, then 24 days later make choice X. It's in keeping with the Bible, seeing as how we have free will. God, of course, exists outside of time and can predict the consequences of every action we take. God knows what action we will take depending on what we are thinking at the time. But don't forget that other people's choices can influence my choices. So no, there are infinite possibilities to my life. I can kill myself tomorrow, or kill myself in two days. That's more than one outcome.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Wrong actually. God knows the outcomes. Which choice I make is not defeinite, and I don't believe in fate. Neither does Catholicism as a whole, actually. Let's say I may choice A instead of B. God knows what will happen if I make choice A, then 24 days later make choice X.

But if God knows that you are definitely going to make choice A, then Choice X 24 days later, then which choice you make is definite.

Anyway, this is more suited to the Predestination/Free Will thread.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Everytime I read the title of this thread...I'm wondering, why should they fix the World in the first place? I mean it really doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not in this case considered we know this world is already balanced or in your words fixed all we need to do is to take actually the responsibility rather than to have in mind if there is a God then he'll fix our mistakes. Sounds to me like Daddy going to get you out of your mess rather than to let you sit in it and figure it out on your own what's the solution to your problem and why you're in this mess in the first place.

In that sense IMO this question is pretty an ignorant one to say the least considered it has this kind of thought that somebody, anybody with more power than I have ought to fix my mistakes and problems and if they don't they either don't exist or aren't as powerful as they appear to be.

[Alastor]

Hem hem.

We don't label our fellow members' questions ignorant here.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Michael_22

Wrong. It is in fact a logical fallacy to say that God can do anything. If he could, then theoretically, he could create a stone heavier than he could pick up, or a square circle. This would violate his own nature and existence. Therefore, if he did something against his nature, he would be self-contradictory and if he were self-contradictory, it would not be possible.

Do you mean that God can only do what is logically possible?

If so, then it presents us with problems. How was the parting of the Red sea logically possible? The bush that burned but wasn't destroyed? And there is no logical explanation for where all the water in Noah's flood came from, nor where it went afterwards. The miracles attributed by God by definition can't be logical. If they were logically possible, we wouldn't need a God to explain them.

In short, if everything attributed to God is logically possible, then we don't require a God for it. Thus, God would be unneccessary.

[Masterfroggy]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Don't agree. God knows when and where I shall die depending on which choice I make. There are infinite possibilities of my death, depending on what choice I make. God knows the outcome of each choice I make in the long run. That's my opinion.

Were that the case, and I mean really the case then, free will does exist. However, and this is straying into the Free will or predestination thread, god according to the bible knows all, not only what happens to you but also what will happen, should he so bless you, to your children and your children’s children. For this to happen, gods knowledge of the future has to be perfect, he will know, that, say, your great great grand daughter will invent a FTL drive which will enable man to spread the word of him to all the known universe and beyond.
If you kill yourself, even by accident, this would not happen nor would the trillions of other people that you would need to influence or put in place to all gods will be done, add to that the million and one things that he needs you to do in order for your great great granddaughter to be in such a place for her to invent the FTL drive, so by dying prematurely, you would make god wrong. That is impossible, so that choice is not available to you, if god wills you to have kids; his will overrides yours every time. For further discussion visit the thread mentioned

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Technically speaking Masterfroggy, if God's omnipotent, He can, as you say, make us do whatever and still worship Him. He CAN, but He doesn't. God is evil because he gives us choice, you say? God is evil because he doesn't fix the choices of those who go against His will?

god, were he to be real, would be evil because he has the power to stop something terrible sinful wasteful and does not. Not only that, he created the situation in the first place. He put in place all that was needed to kill every living soul that has lived and died, he brought forth illness, disease, pain, suffering, evil, and he is the creator of all. Good and bad all stems from his work alone, we do as he will us to do.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Again, your quote is an extremely literal interpretation. "Nothing happens that is not God's will." Well, obviously, seeing as how He created us. You can, however go against God's will. You're failing to realize something that is mentioned a lot in the Bible: we have the choice to follow God, or not to. It's God's desire that we follow Him, His will is that we have the choice.

God can act in such a way that we would all follow his word. He is after all, All mighty, omnipotent, god. What god wills, you have to do, what choices he makes for you, are the only things you can do. He could fix the suffering and pain, and we as a race could live in glorious worship of him, totally voluntary worship, I mean who would not worship a god who created such a great place. However either he can not fix the world (not god) he chooses not to (god is evil) or he is not real (no god)

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

So you don't actually prove anything, because if God's omnipotent, he can totally disregard your logic and make me right anyway. Don't argue omnipotence, because none of us can understand it anyway, and any logic we use doesn't apply to omnipotent beings.

I’m not out to prove anything to others, this is a discussion, its sole aim is to discuss, you will never meet a person who’s mind has been changed totally on a discussion board. I have been online since 1993 and I’ve not met (online or off) one person who claims that his/her life view was altered from Christian to atheist or vice versā.
God’s omnipotence or lack was the question raised in this thread and answered by me. The English bible uses the phrase ‘lord almighty’ or ‘god almighty’ both of which mean the same thing the lord is all mighty; ergo the bible supports the claim that god is omnipotent.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

There's a difference between being "able" to do something, and actually doing it. I could kill a person tomorrow, but I don't want to. Perhaps God knows that the best way to fix the world is by letting us learn from experience, and through His Word. You think you have a better solution? That's nice, but, as you said, God is outside of Time, so He knows all the possibilities and outcomes. You don't.
Case closed.

Telling a poster that that “case closed” or shouting at them, as you did in your last post, is not a good way to bring forth a good discussion on any topic. It is frankly rude.
Anyway, god can do anything he chooses to do, he could, should he desire, act in such a way that we could learn and grow, we would no longer repeat the same mistakes generation on generation. Now if you, like I , have children you will understand that sometimes letting them make the same mistake again is a good way to learn, other times, you see that they keep repeating the same mistake time and time again, you know as a loving and kind parent that you have to intervene, and show them a different way. Show them a way that will ensure that they do learn. To let humanity keep repeating the same mistakes, not just once or twice but tens of thousands of time, smacks of someone with a sadistic personality disorder

Originally Posted by Michael_22

Wrong. It is in fact a logical fallacy to say that God can do anything. If he could, then theoretically, he could create a stone heavier than he could pick up, or a square circle. This would violate his own nature and existence. Therefore, if he did something against his nature, he would be self-contradictory and if he were self-contradictory, it would not be possible.

If god cannot make a rock that he cannot lift, or draw a square circle, or ask a question of himself that he does not know the answer. Then he is not omnipotent. For were he really omnipotent he would be able to do and know such things.
Nothing is impossible or illogical to an omnipotent god. God can do such things because he is god, if he can’t then he is not god.

[Midnightsfire]

We could always take the Gnostic view.

That the world was created by an imperfect being (Demiurge, Yaldabaoth), and that God is perfect and beyond mere human verbiage and human conception.

Originally Posted by Masterfroggy

He could fix the suffering and pain, and we as a race could live in glorious worship of him, totally voluntary worship, I mean who would not worship a god who created such a great place. However either he can not fix the world (not god) he chooses not to (god is evil) or he is not real (no god)

Dubious logic. Humanity lives in duality.

[FingolfinKing]

That's a self-defeating argument. If you define God as a being who SHOULD want to stop the evil of our creation or else he's evil, then He should or else He's evil. however, you are not God, and you cannot define God. It's like me saying : "The only people who are good wake up at 6:32 in the morning on a Sunday." Well, according to my definition, who's the only people that are evil? Well, people that dont wake up at 6:32 in the morning on a Sunday. You can't define God, or even omnipotence because our logic doesn't apply to omnipotence, and we have never experienced it.

God didn't create the evil in our world, we did. Perhaps God knows that in the future, thanks to his Word, we will have some form of harmony.

Also, don't forget that if you read the Bible, God has saved us from death, arguably the part of life that most people dread the most. Why do you forget that He saved us from THAT evil? Why would he bother, unless He is good? Also, if God is evil and omnipotent, that means that since God knows everything, evil must be good because a perfect being believes it. The argument simply goes in circles, and you're not really doing anything but repeating the same logic.

Think about it: God GIVES US life, out of the goodness of His heart. To further this, He gives us free will, though of course it must be limited by God, because God is greater than us. No big deal, He could have given us NO free will. So what happens? We decide to VOLUNTARILY go against God repeatedly, because we think we know better than God. That's our choice, not God's. The evil is of us, not Him.

It's God's perogative to fix or not fix our problems, and I believe that He is fixing them. However, we found ways not to believe Jesus Christ, God's foremost move to save us. So if we have so little faith, why should God oblige?

You are of the type that need to see to believe. God doesn't like that attitude, he prefers faith out of a personal relationship with God. You might find, that through faith, there seems to be so much more hope for the world, and that you feel better as a person, and that you sin less. That's the way it is with me, anything.

PS: I say "Case closed" because I can nearly guarantee you that within a week this will have devolved to a petty argument over "logic" (which in itself isn't the answer to everything). Nothing else needs to be said, really. Either I'm right, or you are. However, since God's omnipotent, we could both be way off the mark. You just have to have faith in what you believe.

God bless everyone, and I pray that God reaches out to all of you, so that we can work to fixing our own mistakes.

[rigdoctorbri]

The answer of why we are here has not yet been revealed, and I doubt seriously that it will be until the next life or perhaps countless lives thereafter. However, were God to come down a fix things it would prove two things that people of faith cannot accept. One: God actually makes mistakes. Two: Man has misplaced his faith in an All-Powerful being.

People of faith tend to believe that there is purpose underlying everything. Why not? It makes sense. It teaches God's Children to think for or do things for themselves, lest we become drones. We are not robots, who follow a program, and lack the ability to make conscious decisions. We are free-thinking, and we learn from our own mistakes and from one another. If God is our Father or Parent, then would he not be proud to see his children try to walk, only to stumble along the way, yet in the end we run?

[Masterfroggy]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

That's a self-defeating argument. If you define God as a being who SHOULD want to stop the evil of our creation or else he's evil, then He should or else He's evil. however, you are not God, and you cannot define God.

personally I do not believe in god, so it is not me defining god, it is the bible, the bible said god created all, everything that includes evil.
“Forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:7
“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and Jehovah not have done [it]”
Amos 3:6
“Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good” Lamentations 3:38

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

You can't define God, or even omnipotence because our logic doesn't apply to omnipotence, and we have never experienced it. .

I’ve not experienced childbirth it does not mean I don’t understand it. Omnipotence means the power to do anything, what is there about that that is difficult to understand.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

God didn't create the evil in our world, we did. Perhaps God knows that in the future, thanks to his Word, we will have some form of harmony. .

See above. God did create evil, it says so in the bible

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Also, don't forget that if you read the Bible, God has saved us from death, arguably the part of life that most people dread the most. Why do you forget that He saved us from THAT evil? .

I have read the bible more than most people, according to the bible he saved/will save his followers. That would be like me burning down the building where I work, just so I can save a few people, it would not make me a good person, it would make be mentally ill.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Why would he bother, unless He is good? Also, if God is evil and omnipotent, that means that since God knows everything, evil must be good because a perfect being believes it. The argument simply goes in circles, and you're not really doing anything but repeating the same logic. .

If god is evil he can not be perfect unless perfection is “absolute evil” Logic wins.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Think about it: God GIVES US life, out of the goodness of His heart. To further this, He gives us free will, though of course it must be limited by God, because God is greater than us. No big deal, He could have given us NO free will. So what happens? We decide to VOLUNTARILY go against God repeatedly, because we think we know better than God. That's our choice, not God's. The evil is of us, not Him. .

again with the shouting…. we mere human mortals can do nothing but gods will. God is omnipotent, he wills all that we do, we ‘sin’ because he chooses us to sin. He wills you believe and he wills that I don’t. Neither you nor I have any say in the matter.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

It's God's perogative to fix or not fix our problems, and I believe that He is fixing them. However, we found ways not to believe Jesus Christ, God's foremost move to save us. So if we have so little faith, why should God oblige? .

god could save us if he wanted to save us, he doesn’t save us, I ask you why?
Is it because he cannot, meaning his omnipotent power is not up to the task? Well that cannot happen he is after all, the all mighty, therefore it has to mean that he chooses not to save us. We’re are back to only real answer, the correct and logical answer, one where god in choosing not to save his creation. His motives cannot be good, if he chooses to harm his creation.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

You are of the type that need to see to believe. God doesn't like that attitude, he prefers faith out of a personal relationship with God. You might find, that through faith, there seems to be so much more hope for the world, and that you feel better as a person, and that you sin less. That's the way it is with me, anything.

Do you know me? Do I have a type? Please to not be judging me, the Christian bible, and the Mod’s here on this site so claim and affirm that you just don’t have that right.
Faith has killed an awful lot of people, I happen to think that faith is a blind excuse for letting the dice fall, as they will. I for one do not need a god to make me feel better about myself

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

PS: I say "Case closed" because I can nearly guarantee you that within a week this will have devolved to a petty argument over "logic" (which in itself isn't the answer to everything). Nothing else needs to be said, really. Either I'm right, or you are. However, since God's omnipotent, we could both be way off the mark. You just have to have faith in what you believe.

Logic is the answer to most things, but trying to simplify things in to right and wrong is not logical, there are as many facets to this argument as there are people alive. It is not a case of me, being right, and you wrong, it is a case of learning that nothing in this world is black and white.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

God bless everyone, and I pray that God reaches out to all of you, so that we can work to fixing our own mistakes.

In addition, I would pray that you stop proselytizing, only I don’t pray.

[Alastor]

This seems to have developed into personal fights about what to say and what not. You all know the rules. Discuss the topic at hand, not each other's debating techniques.

[FingolfinKing]

Alright, thanks Alastor. To put what I said in a friendlier light, it's essentially that even evil serves God in the end, for God created it. All happens according to God's will.

Just by viewing the outcome of an event, it doesn't mean you control it, does it?

[Stephenie]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

I don't agree Stephenie. I don't believe that Jesus was any more connected to God than we are (conciosuly). He simply made a choice that no one else has.

Jesus was with God before coming to earth. He was at Gods side since the beginning of time. He was able to tell his disciples what awaited them in Heaven because he had been there. He often prayed and communicated with his father while on Earth.

[BabyWerewolf]

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

God didn't create the evil in our world, we did.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

To put what I said in a friendlier light, it's essentially that even evil serves God in the end, for God created it. All happens according to God's will.

So which is it? That's not putting what you said in a frinedlier light, that's sayign the opposite.

Originally Posted by FingolfinKing

Think about it: God GIVES US life, out of the goodness of His heart. To further this, He gives us free will, though of course it must be limited by God, because God is greater than us. No big deal, He could have given us NO free will. So what happens? We decide to VOLUNTARILY go against God repeatedly, because we think we know better than God. That's our choice, not God's. The evil is of us, not Him.

Why "of course?" I don't see why it's nessecary for our free will to be limited.
Because he's greater than us? That's not a reason. Just because something is more powerful doesn't mean it's right, and that's the understanding I have of "greater" - do you have another?
And why is it not a big deal? If my free will is limited, it is a big deal to me. Just because he could have limited it further doesn't mean the current level of limitation is acceptable. I wouldn't accept being on a collar and lead just because you could have chained me hand and foot to a wall, I would still want to be really free.
Sorry, though, this is off topic. *apologizes muchly*

To get back to the matter in hand:

Why doesn't God fix the world? To borrow an analogy from Good Omens, for the same reason my mum doesn't tidy my room for me. If someone else fixes it for you every time you mess it up, there's no incentive for you to do it yourself.
Admittedly there are plenty of natural disasters and diseases and so on that are not our fault, at least not directly, and regularly there are disasters and problems that, while they may be the fault of people, aren't the fault of the specific people who get hurt (I'm thinking Chernobyl, Bhopal...) but taking the big picture, if, as a species, we spent all the time and money we do on wars and stupidity and various things that do more harm than good, we could probably do a lot to solve some of those problems. If God fixes them, we'll just screw them up again. If we have to fix them, maybe we'll stop messing about and do something.

Personally, I'm an athiest. I think there is no, God, and that's another reason he doesn't intervene. But I also think that even if there is a God, we'd be better off acting as if there weren't. If you believe no-one is goign to bail you out, and that this life is all you have, and you don't get an afterlife or whatever, maybe you'd make better use of the time you have? Or is that hopelessly idealistic?

I also don't like the idea of their being a grand ineffable plan for everything, or that "even evil will serve God's purpose in the end". I guess I just have trouble accepting the infallibility and goodness of anything, even God. And as evil is defined as what is against God's will...God could be bad, and then anything good would eventually be warped to his purpose *shudders*
I don't like anything that can't be fought against. By FingolfinKing's definition, as I understand it, I can voluntarily decide to go against God (maybe it's ungrateful...but gratitude is not a given. I don't have to be grateful I was created, I never asked to be) but anything I do will eventually be part of his overall plan anyway.
Ugh, how depressing.

I'm wandering off topic again, aren't I? I should go and read hte free will and predestination threadi nstead.

[FingolfinKing]

It's not really depressing it, I just think you're taking it the wrong way. Anyway, my final opinion is that God did create evil, since it exists and He created everything. However, evil itself, while it is against God, still serves him in the end. God doesn't have a plan saying "Oh I'm going to make you do this" it's simply a knowledge of everything. God knows everything that has and will happen. It's simply His nature.

Our free will is unlimited in one sense, but limited in another. It's unlimited in the sense that we can do anything we want to, but it's limited in the sense that God knows what we will choose. I'd hardly call it a limit, actually, because if I'm looking out a window and see a person about to get hit by a car, I'm not deciding it, just knowing it.

Plus, I consider my free will defined by not having divine interference all the time simply because I can't fix my own problems. If God were to intervene with our free will, and FORCE us to do something, then yes, it would be a violation of free will as GOD DEFINES IT. Our definitions can change what free will means to us, but God considers it as Him not interfering. It's a gift, in my opinion, that He doesn't interfere, because it allows us to live lives where we are our own.

BabyWerewolf, even though you are an atheist, I do like that you still believe in many of the same things I do.

Our limitation of free will isn't even a limitation at all, it is simply God's knowledge. And that's obvious, because God knows everything...and to know everything, our choices must be known.

Don't conclude that we are predestined though, because God exists outside of time.