The Creature at King's Cross

[Chris]

At King's Cross, Harry and Dumbledore converse while in the presence of

the form of a small, naked child, curled on the ground, its skin raw and rough, flayed-looking

(DH P 706, US Hardback)
The form is depicted as struggling for breath and unwanted, and Dumbledore notes "you cannot help".

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?


Staff note: Please be respectful of fellow posters and keep in mind this thread. Failure to do so may result in the loss of the right to post within this thread.

[beth83]

I can't really explain this but I think that the twisted baby, for want of a better word, is the piece of Voldemort's soul that was encased in Harry.

I think that if Voldemort does now exist in that form it is no more or no less than he deserves. He fell in the forest as a result of the soul being ripped from Harry.

I still don't really understand the ending, it's going to take a few more reads. I do need to throw my hands up and say I was wrong. I was very firmly in the Harry is not a Horcrux camp.

[wandrider]

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

IMO, JKR will allow for multiple interpretations because of her imprecise use of language in KC speaking through DD. Also, there is a lot of symbolic language used that is spiritual or religious in nature, which opens the door even more to multi-level interpretations. Why? Here is what JKR says about King's Cross:

Elisabeth: In the chapter of kings cross, are they behind the veil or in some world between the real world and the veil?
J.K. Rowling: You can make up your own mind on this, but I think that Harry entered a kind of limbo between life and death.

It is a piece or pieces of Voldemort's soul depending on how one reads and interprets the text. I will note many first thought it was HarrycruxSoul piece including big time fans at MuggleNet. Some of these people switched their opinions and now believe that it is not HarrycruxSoul piece. My belief is the more casual reader will believe it is HarrycruxSoul piece by a significant margin.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

Both or one or the other or 6/8 awaiting remorse or its future form. This is because Harry is outside of Space and Time, which means he may be seeing past, present, or future aspects of Voldemort's soul. He has been bound to Voldemort for 16yrs and is now detached from HarrycruxSoul since 15 months of age. His experience at KC is confusing & DD deliberately gives indirect answers to Harry's questions as to what it is precisely. Harry even gets very frustrated, because DD repeatedly is answering this indirect way at KC. Harry's frustration builds and is shown, when he asks DD where he is and DD says "This is, as they say, your party." "Harry had no idea what this meant; Dumbledore was being infuriating. He glared at him, then remembered a much more pressing question . . ." Bottom line is Harry isn't getting the satisfactory answers he wants from DD, so, we, the readers, might expect that for ourselves too.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

Well, Voldy died many years ago and this interview was given after DH, so Voldy IS forced to exist this way AFTER he died. It says nothing about which soul piece was at KC when Harry was at KC. It's important to note JKR uses the word "FORM" both in her interview online chat & in DH KC. She does state FlayChild will exist in this stunted form instead of a ghost.

Jon: Since voldemort was afraid of death, did he choose to be a ghost if so where does he haunt or is this not possible due to his horcruxes
J.K. Rowling: No, he is not a ghost. He is forced to exist in the stunted form we witnessed in King's Cross.

I think if I was on the soul-side afterlife able to see Voldemort this would be his form. Anything I try to add to that is debatable and is just my informed opinion. I can formulate several ideas about this based on canon.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Yes, but Voldemort was not in KC the same way Harry was in 'his' "party". Harry was AK-d "dead" unknowingly creating an enchantment protection. But Voldemort was not AK-d or rebounded upon. Harry sees Voldemort *only* from Harry's point of view. Voldemort is just unconscious on the ground where Harry can see his soul too. This is possible and probable, imo, because Voldemort had no real knowledge about what had happened to him. He reacts as if he was just knocked unconscious and logically would check Harry too. Why? Because this is the third time he's tried to AK Harry, he failed twice before, so he would check him having fallen unconscious himself. Had Voldemort really gone with Harry to the death side of the soul world I firmly believe Voldemort would have returned behaving far differently than he did. IMO, this is where the idea that suggests VoldyGroundedSoul was actually in KC aware as Harry was fail in debate points, because there are logical debate ideas that overrule weaker ideas.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

Horcrux channel provides the Knock-out. The shock of Harry's death & AK impact is transferred straight back, boomeranged, into Voldemort's mind too. But not his body. We know this can happen, because Voldemort can get into Harry's mind. By this time in DH Harry could enter Voldemort's mind at will. (Harry could have developed this talent much sooner had they understood there was no danger in doing it.) Voldemort is knocked-out for just an instant to a few seconds. It is true that both are knocked-out almost simultaneously, but there is no proof they returned simultaneously. Return is approximate but similar. I think they returned about the same time, because both were just knocked-out for such a short time. I don't see this as any proof that VoldyGroundedSoul was dragged into KC with Harry. Why? They were knocked-out for dramatically different reasons. My explanation is simple enough and doesn't start to interpret canon as just opinion used very loosely for this other purpose to drag Voldemort into KC 'there' with Harry.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

Great question. My theory is that since mind function works in ghosts and all souls throughout the Harry Potter series, that LV was just knocked-out and didn't 'go' anywhere. Harry saw Voldemort's soul just a few feet from him where they both fell. Voldemort's soul remained inside its body Naginicrux anchored, because it was also not AK-d dead by any rebound or Elder Wand backlash. Why? This is a very important point to consider . . . This is because Harry's sacrifice to die had to remain absolutely pure in its execution of pure sacrifice in death. That's what causes it become a pure enchantment sacrifice too, which gives everyone that Harry sacrificed for protection from Voldemort. The enchantment must have its purity to work. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?

There are two falls in the forest. One is Harry's and the other is Voldemort's. One fall may be related to the creature at King's Cross, and the other fall may not be related. Why not give us some flexibility?

I think 7 is trying to get at these ideas: The real question is how is Voldemort's fall related to whether or not Voldemort's soul, aka *VoldyGroundedSoul*, is in KC. If it got 'there' then how did 'it' get there? Meaning, this (7) rephrased in this paragraph correctly, imo, is related to question 4, but asking it the opposite way.

On that basis, Voldemort's fall did not take his VoldyGroundedSoul into KC. Voldy was just unconscious on the ground for a few seconds at most. VoldyGroundedSoul was never there, Voldy never died, but Harry could image him there & see his soul form there too. This is because Voldemort was 'there' on the ground, on earth, just a few feet from Harry.

This is possible and very probable, imo, because DD indicated it was real AND all in Harry's head too. Harry created Limbo as his King's Cross. It was his construct for his Matrix version of Limbo, he interpreted Limbo, and canon supports this idea. Harry uploaded the real image and sounds of Voldemort's soul. This is why Harry could not help the child creature, he never touched or comforted it, and this is why Voldemort was not aware of what happened to him upon his return. It's one reason why DD said it could not be helped. Voldemort was never 'there', because it was Harry's "party" & this is critical to understand that this was Harry's "party" in his "room of requirement" (canon text from KC), and we are in King's Cross ALL from Harry's point of view. Repeat this over & over: it's Harry's "party" in his "room of requirement", and it's ALL from Harry's point of view. Keep repeating until you 'get it' . . .

Alternatively, because Harry & Voldemort's minds were the same as their souls, there is canon for this idea, Harry just saw Voldemort's soul through this connection. Again, this explains why Voldemort was not aware about what happened to him, & why Harry or DD could not help it.

Alternatively, this is how it could be HarrycruxSoul and VoldySoul seen as one because these are blended essences ending their connections with Harry. HarrycruxSoul is destroyed and Harry chooses to go back, so DD said it could not be helped 'there'. VoldySoul will return if there is no remorse, and this is a reason to pity Voldemort at the Great Hall and offer him remorse. It's his last hope.


P.S. At Post #264 I added my final personal opinion about the FlayChildCreature in KC.


Luna blessings...

[snapegirl]

When I first read DH, I thought it was the horcrux piece that was in Harry. I changed my mind because of re-reading DH and also Jo's interview.
Now I think it's what ever is left of Voldemort's own soul. It seems Dumbledore says that once a horcrux is destroyed, it's gone, so I don't think it's hanging out in limbo with Harry.
I think when Voldemort fell in the forest, his soul went to limbo with Harry and it's the creature thing that's under the chair. I think Harry understand this because he told Voldemort during the final battle that he has "seen what he (Voldemort) will become." Because Voldemort didn't feel remorse, he will become the creature in King's Cross. That's why Dumbledore said it was beyond his and Harry's help, only Voldemort could help himself.

[guad]

1) 16 years ago, Voldy places accidentally a piece of soul into Harry
2) 16 years later, he casts AK on Harry, who is protected by the lovespell of his mum. The only thing that is NOT protected by the lovespell is that very piece of soul.
3) AK hits piece of soul = Agonizing creature in Kings Cross.
4) Now the piece of soul is gone (because being agonising in the limbo doesn't count as being a working horcrux anymore) Voldy can cease to exist after Nagini is killed (by awesome Neville I must add here )

I guess he collapses because as Dumbledore says, shortly before his dead he might notice the loss of the Horcruxes. Now all the horcruxes except two were gone, so he probably noticed the loss of that one, having such an unstable soul.

[sparkly]

I think the creature is Voldermort's soul. It seems clear to me that the Harry at King's Cross is actually Harry's soul. His skin is unmarked by any scars, symbolizing the purity of Harry's soul. In contrast, the creature is Voldermort's damaged soul.

Both souls, Voldermort and Harry, journeyed to King's Cross because they are still linked by Harry's blood. When Harry chooses to go back, Voldermort's soul returns with him. Both Harry and Voldermort's bodies were knocked out in the Forbidden Forest while their souls journeyed to King's Cross. They both regained consciousness at the same time.

Voldermort was terrified by what he saw, because he fears death more than anything. Harry was not, because he saw that dying is just another journey, and he was briefly thinking about moving "on" but decided instead to return and defeat Voldermort for good.

[redpyro]

as we know from jo and the books my thoughts are that
1.) the stunted naked child creature at KC is the soul's in the hocruxes they all went to that child it has been there since year 2 in pain and the pain gets worse with every hocrux destroyed so after voldemort dies he is forced to spend eternity in limbo as that stunted hurting child thing

[sholeigh]

I'm not sure whether the child thing is Voldemort's soul, although sparkly's description above of souls in Kings Cross seems quite possible. I do believe that body is what was waiting for Voldemort when he died, and presumably eternal suffering, never to be rescued from that state because no help is possible. I don't think Voldemort will be able to 'go on' in that form, because the stunted body is so helpless. I imagine he will be trapped in his own personal Kings Cross for good.

Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest I think was related to the living connection between himself and Harry. When the connection broke Voldemort was knocked out, but it doesn't appear that he witnessed Kings Cross like Harry did. After I read this scene I was expecting Voldemort to show fear, having seen his afterlife and that suffering child-thing. But he didn't.

[Shewoman]

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
I think it's the piece of Voldemort's soul that was in V's body.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?
The piece that was in Voldemort. I feel like it's possible to make a case for several alternatives here, but Harry later tells Voldemort while urging him to feel remorse that he's seen what Voldemort will become if he DOESN"T feel remorse, and I can't imagine what he's referring to if it isn't this soul piece.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
I think she probably knows! Since Voldemort intentionally split his soul into seven pieces--but actually eight--and by this time they've all been destroyed except the pieces in his body and Nagini, I don't think there's enough of his soul left to become a ghost or to "go on." He literally tore himself apart and existing that way is the consequence of that.


4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
Yes, but I don't have much of an explanation. The best I can do is to say that Voldemort's attack on Harry destroyed his own soul piece since it wasn't "tethered" to anything--it was, although he didn't intend it, a form of suicide. That soul piece "hitched a ride" with Harry's soul, since it had been connected to Harry for so long, thereby going to King's Cross. Voldemort passed out because the soul in his body followed Harry and the eighth-of-a-soul rather than remain alone in its flayed-baby state. Possibly the fact that he had actually killed a part of his own soul was also relevant; he had not done that before. The piece of soul in that had been in V's body returned to this world when Harry did.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
Because of the connection among the soul piece in his body, the soul piece in Harry of which V and H were both unaware, and Harry's own soul, the part of soul still in Voldemort followed to King's Cross. This meant there was no soul in his body, hence the passing out. When Harry returns from King's Cross, so does the soul piece. It enters Voldemort's body, ultimately to be destroyed by the AK V used in his attempt to kill Harry.

6. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?
I don't have one.

[redpyro]

as i stated above by jo's statment i gathered that voldermort was just knocked out from killing a piece of his own soul and with harry's blood protection with in him when harry passed out voldermort did too and so the 7 hocrux's go to that form and when voldermort dies he goes to that and he has 8 souls in it so he's hurting because they were rioped apart so they couldnt go back together so they were in terrible pain

[purplehawk]

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

I think the creature represents Voldemort as he would be in death.


2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

It was Voldemort's maimed soul, or what would be left of it after the other 7/8ths of his soul had been destroyed.


3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

I think it is sheer poetic justice. With Jo having said as much, I guess I don't get why so many people argue that the creature was anything other than the form Voldemort would take in eternity.


4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Only indirectly.


5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

The Elder Wand tried to kill Voldemort in the forest, as well as killing of the piece of Voldemort's soul that lie within Harry. The blood tie between Harry and Voldemort brought them both back. Harry was free of the horcrux, but Voldemort was weakened.


6. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?

I think Kings' Cross gave Harry a glimpse into what would be, or could be. Harry himself was portrayed as being in his eternal form: perfect vision, without a scar, without clothes even. Had he chosen to "go on," he would have remained as he was, eternally at peace.

Kings' Cross allowed Harry to see what Voldemort would become after death, and I think that's why Harry offered him his last and best chance at salvation during their duel. "Try for some remorse" and "I've seen what you'll be" were reflections of Harry's huge heart. It was remarkable that he could feel such pity for his enemy.

[sparkly]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

I think it is sheer poetic justice. With Jo having said as much, I guess I don't get why so many people argue that the creature was anything other than the form Voldemort would take in eternity.

I see Jo speaking in the present tense - Voldermort IS forced to exist, not WILL BE forced to exist. That says to me that the creature is Voldermort's soul at the present time.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by sparkly

I see Jo speaking in the present tense - Voldermort IS forced to exist, not WILL BE forced to exist. That says to me that the creature is Voldermort's soul at the present time.

Kings' Cross occurred out of time, therefore would be is appropriate. Nagini was still alive. Harry had not had his final duel with Voldemort. In that sense it was all future... what could or would be.

After the duel in the Great Hall, what could be or would be became reality... what is; hence Jo's statement in the present tense that that nasty little thing was Voldemort's soul, or what was left of it.

[redpyro]

Originally Posted by sparkly

I see Jo speaking in the present tense - Voldermort IS forced to exist, not WILL BE forced to exist. That says to me that the creature is Voldermort's soul at the present time.

well yeah your close but that thing we see is the souls of the hocruxes thts what the rest of voldermort's soul went to when he died what we saw was the hocruxes emboodiment in limbo

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by sparkly

I see Jo speaking in the present tense - Voldermort IS forced to exist, not WILL BE forced to exist. That says to me that the creature is Voldermort's soul at the present time.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Kings' Cross occurred out of time, therefore would be is appropriate. Nagini was still alive. Harry had not had his final duel with Voldemort. In that sense it was all future... what could or would be.

Here's another reason why this is confusing. JKR was asked this question AFTER DH was published. Also, Voldemort died in the past years ago. She had no choice but to use the word IS in that context, but it doesn't clarify which soul piece was there at KC. All soul pieces or any combination could be in the form Voldemort is forced to exist in. There are 8 pieces or combinations that likely have the same form, especially, when you exit Space and Time.


Luna blessings...

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Shewoman

Possibly the fact that he had actually killed a part of his own soul was also relevant; he had not done that before.

I agree that the fact that Voldemort killed the piece of soul in Harry might be relevant. I believe that Dumbledore said that is was vital that Harry be the one to destroy Voldemort. Maybe this was the reason.

Originally Posted by sholeigh

Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest I think was related to the living connection between himself and Harry. When the connection broke Voldemort was knocked out, but it doesn't appear that he witnessed Kings Cross like Harry did. After I read this scene I was expecting Voldemort to show fear, having seen his afterlife and that suffering child-thing. But he didn't.

You have brought up a good point. I agree that Voldemort didn't experience King's Cross, or at least wasn't aware of Harry and Dumbledore if he was there, the way Harry experienced it. Voldemort knew that something unusal happened, first of all, because he was on the ground, secondly, because he wanted to know if Harry was dead. Normally, when Voldemort casts the AK at someone who is standing right in front of him, the person dies. Maybe Voldemort went into a limbo that was his own reality. Maybe the reason Voldemort didn't show fear was because he knew that he had all those horcruxes to keep him from dying. He knew he didn't have to go back to that limbo.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

I believe that Dumbledore said that is was vital that Harry be the one to destroy Voldemort. Maybe this was the reason.

I don't know, but was it stated by DD that LV had to be the one to face Harry? (Or was it the other way around?) Voldemort was locked-in to the prophecy no matter what, so Harry had to deal with LV no matter what.

Didn't DD want Harry to face LV, because anyone else could kill Harry? (Harry was protected at the Dursley's till 17yrs too, or did that mean anywhere until 17 as long as that was his blood-tie home?)

If anyone killed Harry, then the Harrycrux would be destroyed. If that had happened, then LV still would have been knocked-out or felt it, imo. The Horcrux channel would send that feedback in a instant.

Warning mind benders!

That's another hypothetical if 'that' happened, then Harry would be seeing HarrycruxSoul destroyed instead. Why? Confusing ideas, but, because one would think he could see HarrycruxSoul on the soul-side too. They certainly did see & hear from the Wizard earth-side, when they destroyed the other Horcrux containers. When Horcrux containers were opened or in danger, these souls pieces flitted out to be wicked & influence or attack their opponent psychologically. Plus, these souls screamed as they "ceased to exist" on the earthly plane. Why couldn't Harry witness that on the soul-side too? I seems like it would be a better HorcruxSoul "destruction" or "ceased to exist" view from there too.

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

You have brought up a good point. I agree that Voldemort didn't experience King's Cross, or at least wasn't aware of Harry and Dumbledore if he was there, the way Harry experienced it.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Why?

Because every soul and ghost we know of in HP has full mind function in the soul world. Personally, it would be impossible for me to imagine Voldemort has lost his mind, knowledge, and awareness of his past, present, and future existence. Why? IMO, it would not be a fate worse than death if it is was otherwise, and he didn't understand 'that' too.

Voldy does have to know 'that' too! Not just us the readers.


Luna blessings...

[EverLore]

Didn't JK say in the Bloomsbury chat that the creature thing was what as left of Voldemort?

[mugglebeki]

Originally Posted by chparadise

The form is depicted as struggling for breath and unwanted, and Dumbledore notes "you cannot help".

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?

1. I think it is the piece of soul that remains in Voldemort. It is similar to "Vapormort" because that was what prevented Voldemort from dying in the first place when he tried to kill baby Harry: his soul was not whole, so it could not be destroyed until all his Horcruxes were destroyed. It survived the destruction of his body, so it had to flee and remain hidden and "alive" for 14 years until Wormtail helped him regain his body in the graveyard where his father was buried.

2. It is the piece of soul that resided in Voldemort. It is represented as a flayed baby that is agonizing because it has been torn into 7 parts knowingly, plus one more, unknowingly, so it is in a very fragile and unstable state; even Dumbledore says that it is beyond help. It is actually what's left of Voldemort's once whole soul, so it is pretty shattered. Harry sees what remains of Voldemort's soul and wants to help it, but is disgusted by it. That's why, when they confront each other in the Final Battle, Harry asks Voldemort to feel remorse, it is a last attempt to try to save him - it reminds me of the Christian belief that if you truly repent of all your sins and accept Christ as your Savior, you can be saved, even if you are in your deathbed.

3. Voldemort is forced to exist in that form by none other than himself. In his desire to conquer death, he has divided his soul, so that if one part of his soul dies, he will not die, because there is still another part of his soul to keep living. His fear of death was so great, that he repeated that same process of Horcrux-making six more times (we know it's 7) to ensure that all possible attempts to kill him would not succeed because there was still another piece of his soul left to continue living. In this sense, his existence was a forced existence, because, while he continued to exist, with every attempt at killing him, the next piece of soul that took over his body would be more and more weakened until he became something like a living corpse or an inferius.

4 & 5. Oh, yes. When Voldemort AK'd Harry, he destroyed that piece of his own soul that resided in Harry. This time, unlike other times, the destruction of his Horcrux resulted in his own collapse because Voldemort destroyed a piece of his own soul, and was unaware of it!!! While he lays unconscious in the forest, his soul travels with Harry's soul, which is now whole and completely Harry's, to KC, where Harry sees it as that helpless creature.

6. Voldemort was unaware of where he was. I'm sure he was unaware that Harry and Dumbledore were there. After all, this was Harry's version of limbo.

7. Voldemort's fall in the forest is related to the creature at King's Cross.

[Polaris17]

"Vapormort". I like it.

The flayed baby thing (in what I like to think of as "the ante-room to Death") was awfully reminiscent of the creature LV became with Wormtail's help before regaining his body using Harry's blood (and Wormtail's hand and Tom Riddle Sr.'s bone).

One thing I was wondering about was the unicorn's blood Quirrell drank for LV in Book 1. I can't remember the exact wording, but wasn't it supposed to guarantee an eternal but cursed "half-life"?

I think LV can't die, which why what is left of him is stuck in the "ante-room".

Polaris