The Creature at King's Cross

[purplehawk]

Okay. I'm off to bed tonight, but I will read the thread you linked first thing tomorrow.

Take care!

[Rookie_Angel]

by LotusFawkes: As for why he's at KC with Harry, that I think has to do with the last vestige of the mind connection the crux piece gave them. They were intertwined in a way that never happened before and so I think they were uniquely connected in this experience. However, I can also see how the blood-bond would also provide a connection for both to be at KC together.

The importance of "body" is what I'm picking up on here. The enchantment that protected Harry against Voldemort's AK is now in Voldemort's body too. So long as Voldemort is not turned into Vapormort, Harry has his tether.

Agreed. But I don't think Lily's sacrifice protects Voldemort in any way, shape, or form. He's just an incubator, keeping the magic protecting Harry circulating in a living body, thus "keeping it alive" when Harry's "VCR" momentarily loses its power so the Horcrux can "die" and the "programming" of the protective enchantment would otherwise have been lost just like the Horcrux.

by Wandrider: I'm certain many near death experiences have occurred, when Muggles have been knocked-out but were not dying. What do you think?

Hmmm...I haven't heard any like that, but anything's possible. Usually you hear about someone's heart stopping and the doctors trying to revive them while they decide to move toward the light, until someone sends them back. I don't personally think unconscious really does it. But I'm not downgrading anyone else's thoughts on the matter.

by Wandrider: Why drag, pull, tie, tether, et al, when I've gotten Harry and DD just to be able to see him 'there'. What's the problem without all 'that' verbose action???

I'm not sure I'm really caught onto your theories. Besides, from what I have grasped your theories don't really "get him there," I strongly believe that JKR wrote a scene where two interlinked characters, like Holmes and Moriarty going over the falls, go into a life-and-death clinch. They fall into it together. Neither knows it's going to happen, but somehow when normally one should go down, both go down.

I think this is my version of "the simple answer is the best." If you back way off from the view, until it's in simple Lego-like blocks, it's one guy zaps the other, but they are linked (pick your favorite way), so they both fall down. They both go to the train station, the white light, judgement time, whatever, because their destinies are linked together. Neither's time has yet really come, they both have to return for one final battle. Both wake up and continue playing their chess game, may the best man win.

So I guess I am "symbolically predjudiced" in that case. I think that making only one of them "really there" and the other one "symbolically there" takes away from the symmetry and thus some of the power that was intended in the story. Like saying that in The Three Bears, that the porridge and the the chairs were really there, but the beds were symbolic. It just doesn't feel correct. Feels somewhat fake or forced. At least to me.

by SusanBones111: I think that if Harry had been AK'd in GoF, he would have died, in spite of the blood protection because Harry did not willingly sacrifice himself. Voldemort would not have been drawn into the near-death experience.

I think that the whole Harry and whatever that thing was in King's Cross happened because of Harry's sacrifice. I don't think that Voldemort's AK curse backfired on him or caused his "passing out". I think it was the blood sacrifice/protection tether that dragged him there because Harry's action triggered the protection. This would not have been true in GoF.

I used to think that DD said that Harry was not dead both because he had sacrificed himself, and because of Lily's sacrifice remaining alive in Voldy. But when I reread, it sounded like the old Dumbledore bait and switch evasive answer:

Harry: But I should have died--I didn't defend myself! I meant to let him kill me!

Dumbledore: And that will, I think, have made all the difference.

It did make "all the difference." But not in Harry returning to life. DD later explains the tether in depth as the reason Harry can choose to go back to life. Harry's sacrifice doesn't come up in that conversation at all when Harry asks again why he isn't dead.

It did make all the difference, to Hogwarts being safe, to Harry battling V. without the horror and distraction of his friends being seriously threatened by Voldemort (once he catches on that V's power over them is essentially gone).

by Shewoman: IMHO that means that if Voldemort had AK'd Harry in the graveyard, Harry would have been tethered to life because his/Lily's blood was still alive in Voldemort . . . as is the case in DH. The fact that Harry was willing to let Voldemort kill him in Deathly Hallows is what extended Lily's protection to Harry's community--his sacrifice was necessary for that--but the tether is established by Voldemort's insistence on using Harry's blood. It's not established by Lily, although since her blood is in Harry's her sacrifice is kept alive in Voldemort, nor--again, IMHO--is Harry's willingness to die an element in its effectiveness. In "King's Cross" Dumbledore explains the tether by saying Voldemort "tethered you to life while he lives!" He doesn't mention any necessary action (or inaction) on Harry's part as a requisite to its working. It doesn't sound to me like anything Harry does affects the tether at all (aside from his choosing, in King's Cross, whether to use it or not).

Totally agree with all of this!

by Shewoman: ...the tether between Harry and Voldemort--the one with the power to anchor Harry in the world of the living because Voldemort is there--could have had the parallel effect of dragging Voldemort to King's Cross because Harry was there.

I still slightly favor the Harrycrux for getting them there, and Voldy being lesser "damaged" by whatever happened at the double-fall-down; then Voldy re-establishes his "aliveness" first, so that Harry can "follow the tether".

But I like how you put this Mount Everest Theory (because they were there!) enough that you may have just put this blood connection/tether up on an equal footing with my other theory in my mind.

by LotusFawkes: I also think there are two separate issues regarding what happened in the forest. First, there is the knock out of both Harry and Voldemort. I think the knock out is different from whatever it was that put them both in King's Cross together.

Really? That sounds like an intriguing statement. Have I missed this theory or are you going to tell us more?

by LotusFawkes: That said, I wonder about the importance of Voldemort having rebuilt his body using Harry's blood. What's the big deal about his body carrying Lily's enchantment unless it is to protect him from becoming Vapormort?

I don't think it protects Voldemort at all. As I said above, I think he's only a vessel, an incubator, a refrigerator (a Horcrux if you will?) that keeps Lily's enchantment protecting Harry alive even when Harry temporarily isn't. Harry has to be momentarily clinically dead for the Horcrux to be "broken" in my opinion. And the whole "gleam of triumph" thing, would be pointless if Harry never flickers out even for a second. That is, there is no need for the enchantment to stay alive incubated in Voldy, if it's still alive in Harry!

by LotusFawkes: Harry's tether only works if Voldemort does not become Vapormort. And what has the power to turn Voldemort into Vapormort? I personally don't see any reason for a big deal to be made out of this blood link unless it is to protect Voldemort's body from a rebound at a very crucial moment when the AK is needed to destroy the crux piece in Harry.

Well, the rebound is in question, and in my theory, any one or combination of several things that could have knocked out V. work basically equally well. If it was an AK rebound or recoil, I don't think it hit V. with equal force. I think Harry took the brunt of it, and the Elder Wand allowed it to be a real, killing AK because that's what Harry wanted it to be.

But Lily's protection of Harry remaining alive and active even after Harry "dies" enough to kill the Horcrux and send him to KC, is important because it gives Harry the tether back from KC. I don't believe that like Aslan in Narnia, the freely given sacrifice itself is what lets Harry come back to life. As DD explains things, it's the tether that lets him choose life. Harry's sacrifice, like Lily's, protects others, not the sacrificer.

by SusanBones111: I disagree with the reasoning that Harry's sacrifice was to grant the protection to the community.

True, that that wasn't Harry's reason for doing it, certainly not his thinking or his plan...He didn't say "Hey, I'll do a magical protection like my mum did!"

But ultimately it amounted to the same thing. He sacrificed himself to kill a Horcrux, so that after one more Horcrux destruction, Voldemort could be killed like anyone else, and his friends and his school and his community could be safe from Voldemort. And I think that when Harry figures it out that V's curses at Hogwarts are being easily thrown off, that it is made pretty clear that it's his sacrifice that's done it.

Harry: Don't you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people--

V: But you did not!

Harry: --I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did. They're protected from you. Haven't you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can't torture them. You can't touch them.

by SB111: Harry clearly intended to sacrifice himself for the purpose of killing the soul piece. Dumbledore said that it made all the difference when Harry wanted to know why he wasn't dead. I don't think the sacrifice protection is triggered unless you sacrifice yourself.

I already explained above (look for the Harry/DD conversation) how I think DD was "changing the subject" a bit in that slippery way of his, when he said his "all the difference" quote when Harry asked why he didn't die. It was indeed a big factor in their final battle, it did make "all the difference" that Harry wasn't distracted from battling V. by trying to protect his friends--no hostage element which could easily have done Harry amd all the Hogwarts loyalists in.. But the sacrifice wasn't the main reason Harry was able to go back to life.

by Aliena: I think the Elder Wand may have played into the events in the Forest, but I think it would have killed him in the Forest if not for the tether. The difference is that in the Great Hall, Harry did not want to die and fought against it; in the Forest, he willingly went to his death. (I do think that the reason the Cruciatus Curse did not work after Harry came back from King's Cross was because of the Elder Wand; I don't think Harry's sacrifice protected Harry.)

I agree with this.

Purplehawk, I think Harry essentially did die in the forest, but was able to return because Voldy didn't. I think the Elder Wand killed all of him, not just the Horcrux, as Aliena said, because that's what Harry wanted to happen.

by Wandrider: This idea [the blood bond providing a way for them to be at KC together] would be mistaken, imo. Why? Because it's making Lily's enchantment do something it was never intended to do. It's not why the enchantment was created in the first place. So, how can this completely rare and unique and unknown enchantment do something *new* it was never intended to do 16 years into the future??? That's just not possible or canon, imo.

Lily's sacrifice came from her deep desire at that moment to protect Harry. But there was also a side effect of Harry becoming a Horcrux.

I see it as if it were a mother and child under a gun attack and she put up a shield sort of like the Fantastic Four's Invisble Girl does, but the shield accidentally caused a bullet to shatter and a small piece lodge in Harry. It was not Lily's plan, or the sheild's "plan" to make Harry a Horcrux, it was a side effect. And that "gleam of triumph" tether was not something Lily did, it was something Voldy did by taking Harry's blood and, as the book says, "doubling" their connection.

[edit]That extra level of connectiveness, that extra link, that Harry's "bulletproof shield" or a sort of copy thereof was carried around unwittingly by his "arch enemy" was not something inherent in Lily's magic, that part was done by Voldy, when he took Harry's blood into himself.

That two people whose blood and minds are connected by some very strong magic should go to the same place on the spirit plane, through these connections, when they both "fall" at the same time, should not seem at all surprising, IMHO.

Wandrider, I agree with most of Purplehawk's rejoinders to your latest ideas about the possible rebound curse and such. (though I am not "married" to the idea of a rebound curse, I believe that such a curse or something related is one of the top 4 or so possibilities as to what causes the knockdown in the forest, any of which work equally well for my theory and none of which I've seen seriously disqualified. But he seems to agree with you on the symbolic nature of Voldy in KC, which of course you know I have a different opinion on.

[LotusFawkes]

Before I get to anything else, I have a question.

There are two times that Voldemort has squarely hit Harry with an AK curse: as a baby and in the forest.

Two other times Voldemort tried to AK Harry and Harry met the AK with an Expelliarmus in defense. The first time was in GoF and the Priori Incantatem happened, along with Harry's wand imbibing some of Voldy's powers. The other time is in the Final Battle when the AK rebounds and kills Voldy for good.

Are there any other times when Voldy has AK'd Harry and either hit him or Harry responded? The near misses don't count.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by LotusFawkes

Are there any other times when Voldy has AK'd Harry and either hit him or Harry responded? The near misses don't count.

Nope. That's it.

[Shewoman]

I can't think of any either, LF.

Wandrider, weren't you at one point arguing that Harry didn't really die in the Forest? I think it was before this thread came up.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by Shewoman

Wandrider, weren't you at one point arguing that Harry didn't really die in the Forest? I think it was before this thread came up.

. . . yes!

Yes, I was panicked about JKR's canon being violated with everyone saying Harry died, then I figured out how I think JKR *winked* us all into letting Harry die and not die simultaneously???

Ok, one can die enough to get to KC or Limbo to decide whether to die or not *only* in Harry's one of a kind "death case file". Sooo, here we go, it's a special enchantment ancient magic case & unique accidental placement of that magic into LV by, no less, than Lord Voldemort himself.

If it had been anyone else or even Harry being hit by that AK without the tether in Voldy, then anyone, including Harry, was dead.

Technically, Harrycrux was released & destroyed from its blended essences inside Harry. So, Harry was beyond magical repair in order for that Horcrux canon to work. And, because the tether magic resided in Voldy to save Harry, then, that "saved face" for JKR & her canon allowing both Harry to not die & the Harrycrux to be destroyed too.

Thanks to the thread deletion we lost the quote from Fairygdmother quoting JKR's comment about how close she will take Harry to death. (Maybe Fairygdmother will repost it here too, since s/he did post to this thread and is on the Forums too.)

I did have a few more post quotes from the other thread too, so here are these too. Sorry for the repetition . . .

Regarding HedwigOwl's comments above, imo, Harry's body, physical body, was dead for a short period of time, otherwise Voldemort's tether to life served no purpose whatsoever, imo. But, as DD said "on the whole" Harry was not dead.


Luna blessings...

[LotusFawkes]

Looking at the mechanics of what happened in the forest, we know that Voldemort AK'd Harry and Harry wakes up in King's Cross. This is action 1.

We don't really know what happened to Voldemort other than he too collapsed based on Harry's observations when he returned from KC.

While Harry is in KC, he finds he not alone, there's this creature there in addition to Dumbledore showing up. How the creature got there, while not independent of the AK that hit Harry because that is the mechanism that sent Harry to KC, does not in itself account for the presence of the creature in KC. Some other mechanism was at work for both Harry and the creature to be in KC together at the same time. This is action 2.

This is what I meant by saying that the knock out and their being at KC together are two different issues. They are interdependent, but the mechanisms of action are not identical.

This shouldn't be news to anyone since it has often been said that Voldemort got dragged (action 2) to KC because of either the link through the crux piece or the blood link or both or neither. But AK'ing Harry (action 1), in and of itself, does not account for Voldemort's presence in KC. That's all I meant.

[Shewoman]

Wandrider said, "Ok, one can die enough to get to KC or Limbo to decide whether to die or not *only* in Harry's one of a kind "death case file".

Do you mean by this that, while all magical people have the post-mortem choice of whether to go on or become ghosts (according to Nearly Headless Nick--what a GREAT name, btw), Harry's the only one who could decide to continue his physical life because of the tether?

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by Rookie_Angel

Purplehawk, I think Harry essentially did die in the forest, but was able to return because Voldy didn't. I think the Elder Wand killed all of him, not just the Horcrux, as Aliena said, because that's what Harry wanted to happen.

I'm still fascinated by "the master it would not kill" two chapters later, and also Dumbledore's statement that Voldemort "failed to kill you with my wand." My wand in that statement refers to the Elder Wand. Dumbledore also made quite clear that, while the Elder Wand failed to kill Harry, it did destroy the horcrux within him. "Yes, he destroyed it. Your soul is whole, and completely your own, Harry."

Lily's sacrifice came from her deep desire at that moment to protect Harry. But there was also a side effect of Harry becoming a Horcrux.

I see it as if it were a mother and child under a gun attack and she put up a shield sort of like the Fantastic Four's Invisble Girl does, but the shield accidentally caused a bullet to shatter and a small piece lodge in Harry. It was not Lily's plan, or the sheild's "plan" to make Harry a Horcrux, it was a side effect. And that "gleam of triumph" tether was not something Lily did, it was something Voldy did by taking Harry's blood and, as the book says, "doubling" their connection.

I'm not sure about this. Dumbledore said Voldemort's soul shattered when his curse rebounded upon himself at Godric's Hollow. Pieces obviously went flying all over the place considering that half the second story of the house was destroyed. I think the flying bit of his shattered soul did what Dumbledore said it did: attached itself to the only living being left in wreckage: Harry.

This phenomenon was the result of the rebounding AK and the fact that Voldemort's soul was already quite unstable at the time he cast the curse. I don't think it had anything to do with Lily's protective charm, apart from causing the rebound. When that curse hit Voldemort, however, the result was enough to blow the roof off that side of the upper story of the house.

Wandrider, I agree with most of Purplehawk's rejoinders to your latest ideas about the possible rebound curse and such. (though I am not "married" to the idea of a rebound curse, I believe that such a curse or something related is one of the top 4 or so possibilities as to what causes the knockdown in the forest, any of which work equally well for my theory and none of which I've seen seriously disqualified. But he seems to agree with you on the symbolic nature of Voldy in KC, which of course you know I have a different opinion on.

I'm not entirely married to it, either. As I said earlier, I've been chewing this over for three months now. I think it's highly possible... a step or two away from saying I believe it to be fact.

I still think Voldemort's appearance in KC was solely for Harry's benefit, however, there for the express purpose of giving Harry a glimpse into the immediate future should he return to the forest.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

Would the same thing have happened if Voldemort had used his phoenix feather wand?

Sure would, imo. Why?

Because that twin sister/brother Wand of Harry's was broken, and Harry was *not* even holding a Wand to duel. It was deliberately put in its 'holster', so to speak, and hidden in Harry's suitcase, so to speak, to die in sacrifice.

It was a crystal clear signal to the Elder Wand that this was *no* duel. Fire away & obey me! Yes, kill me!

It did obey Harry, and, then, this is very important, the Lily enchantment inside Voldemort tethered Harry to life. There was no fireworks display with the Elder Wand backfiring or rebounding back into an enchantment *already* protecting Voldemort to remain alive for Harry's sake.

The good magic of the Elder Wand, yes it's good to AK kill Harry to destroy Harrycrux, is *not* going to turn on the good magic of the Lily enchantment protecting Voldemort to protect Harry. That's totally and completely self-defeating and nonsensical, imo, if good magic was to attack itself. And, it's not even possible, because AK's do not ricochet from living beings without some magic protecting them too. For example, the Harrybaby Lily enchantment rebound protection that expired in Harry at 17. (The baby was unable to defend itself or understand. Pure innocence. Harry could be "the man" at 17yo.) Yay!

Only the movie special effects people would LOVE to override this canon and go backfire BOOM into Voldy too. P l e a s e, give it a break . . .

IMO.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I'm still fascinated by "the master it would not kill" two chapters later, and also Dumbledore's statement that Voldemort "failed to kill you with my wand." My wand in that statement refers to the Elder Wand. Dumbledore also made quite clear that, while the Elder Wand failed to kill Harry, it did destroy the horcrux within him. "Yes, he destroyed it. Your soul is whole, and completely your own, Harry."

Remote possible exception to all of the above: Because Harrycrux had *zero* enchantment protection, it's possible *IF* you believe the Elder Wand would know how to strike Harry enough to fine tune AK green-light him *only* into Limbo, yet be powerful enough to dislodge the HarrycruxSoul from its unprotected Horcrux too.

Well, it's possible if you can believe the Elder Wand is smart enough to do it??? If DD used the word failed, then perhaps that means the Elder Wand tried to kill Harry & failed because of the tether??? Which would void this theory?

Purplehawk, don't forget to check-out the Magic in the Blood thread & compare it to my ideas in posts 212 and 214 and 216. I look forward to your analysis.

Shewoman said, Do you mean by this that, while all magical people have the post-mortem choice of whether to go on or become ghosts (according to Nearly Headless Nick--what a GREAT name, btw), Harry's the only one who could decide to continue his physical life because of the tether?

I believe it's canon that Lily's enchantment is a first; it's ancient magic that was unknown or unheard of before. (Hmmm, so how did DD guess it right? There must be a story hidden somewhere.) Maybe there is a backstory about this like there is for the Hallows! Hey, cooool.

Do you think JKR will tell us the Lily enchantment backstory in the encyclopedia too? What true to life mythological story will she have based it on? (She did for the three Hallows brothers story.)

I should start a thread on this topic. Ok.

I bet Shewoman has some inside connection or magical abilities we don't know about? Ok, it's fun to have wishful thinking too. Right?

What ancient or mythical story did JKR base Lily's enchantment on?


Luna blessings...

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Rookie_Angel

Agreed. But I don't think Lily's sacrifice protects Voldemort in any way, shape, or form. He's just an incubator, keeping the magic protecting Harry circulating in a living body, thus "keeping it alive" when Harry's "VCR" momentarily loses its power so the Horcrux can "die" and the "programming" of the protective enchantment would otherwise have been lost just like the Horcrux.

I agree. I don't think Voldemort has any benefit from Lily's protection and the tether would not keep him alive if the situation were reversed.

Originally Posted by Rookie_Angel

I think this is my version of "the simple answer is the best." If you back way off from the view, until it's in simple Lego-like blocks, it's one guy zaps the other, but they are linked (pick your favorite way), so they both fall down. They both go to the train station, the white light, judgement time, whatever, because their destinies are linked together. Neither's time has yet really come, they both have to return for one final battle. Both wake up and continue playing their chess game, may the best man win.

This is a good explanation, IMO. JK Rowling is renowned for her "simple answer is best". The fans tend to think things are more complicated than there really are in my opinion.

Originally Posted by wandrider

. Ok, one can die enough to get to KC or Limbo to decide whether to die or not *only* in Harry's one of a kind "death case file". Sooo, here we go, it's a special enchantment ancient magic case & unique accidental placement of that magic into LV by, no less, than Lord Voldemort himself.

- Good one

Originally Posted by wandrider

If it had been anyone else or even Harry being hit by that AK without the tether in Voldy, then anyone, including Harry, was dead.

Agreed. I think that anyone throughout the years who had hit Harry with an AK would have killed him, except for Voldemort.

Originally Posted by wandrider

Technically, Harrycrux was released & destroyed from its blended essences inside Harry. So, Harry was beyond magical repair in order for that Horcrux canon to work. And, because the tether magic resided in Voldy to save Harry, then, that "saved face" for JKR & her canon allowing both Harry to not die & the Harrycrux to be destroyed too.

I don't think we should refer to this as JKR trying to save face (here the auror is talking ) but I agree that Harry had to be beyond magical repair for the horcrux to die.

Originally Posted by LotusFawkes

This shouldn't be news to anyone since it has often been said that Voldemort got dragged (action 2) to KC because of either the link through the crux piece or the blood link or both or neither. But AK'ing Harry (action 1), in and of itself, does not account for Voldemort's presence in KC. That's all I meant.

I agree and I think most of us agree with this, too.

Originally Posted by Shewoman

Wandrider said, "Ok, one can die enough to get to KC or Limbo to decide whether to die or not *only* in Harry's one of a kind "death case file".

Do you mean by this that, while all magical people have the post-mortem choice of whether to go on or become ghosts (according to Nearly Headless Nick--what a GREAT name, btw), Harry's the only one who could decide to continue his physical life because of the tether?

My answer is yes, even though I know you asked wandrider.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Dumbledore said Voldemort's soul shattered when his curse rebounded upon himself at Godric's Hollow. Pieces obviously went flying all over the place considering that half the second story of the house was destroyed. I think the flying bit of his shattered soul did what Dumbledore said it did: attached itself to the only living being left in wreckage: Harry.

This phenomenon was the result of the rebounding AK and the fact that Voldemort's soul was already quite unstable at the time he cast the curse. I don't think it had anything to do with Lily's protective charm, apart from causing the rebound. When that curse hit Voldemort, however, the result was enough to blow the roof off that side of the upper story of the house.

I agree with this. Lily's protection caused the rebound, but it was the rebound and Voldemort's damaged soul that caused the Harrycrux. If Voldemort had not damaged his soul, Harry would not have gotten a piece of it, IMO.

Originally Posted by wandrider

Because that twin sister/brother Wand of Harry's was broken, and Harry was *not* even holding a Wand to duel. It was deliberately put in its 'holster', so to speak, and hidden in Harry's suitcase, so to speak, to die in sacrifice.

It was a crystal clear signal to the Elder Wand that this was *no* duel. Fire away & obey me! Yes, kill me!

It did obey Harry, and, then, this is very important, the Lily enchantment inside Voldemort tethered Harry to life.

I like the way you said that the Elder wand obeyed it's master and killed him. So, both the Elder wand and Voldy's old phoenix feather wand, would both have killed Harry, imo.

Originally Posted by wandrider

Only the movie special effects people would LOVE to override this canon and go backfire BOOM into Voldy too.

I hope not - but you never know.

Originally Posted by wandrider

Remote possible exception to all of the above: Because Harrycrux had *zero* enchantment protection, it's possible *IF* you believe the Elder Wand would know how to strike Harry enough to fine tune AK green-light him *only* into Limbo, yet be powerful enough to dislodge the HarrycruxSoul from its unprotected Horcrux too.

Well, it's possible if you can believe the Elder Wand is smart enough to do it???

I don't think the Elder wand played a role in getting Harry and/or Voldemort to King's Cross. I think it was the tether/love protection/sacrifice thing.

Originally Posted by wandrider

What ancient or mythical story did JKR base Lily's enchantment on?

If you did start a thread on this, I believe that it would go in the Pensieve forum.

[LotusFawkes]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

I agree and I think most of us agree with this, too.

So, there are two questions:

1) What stunned Voldemort?

2) How'd he end up in KC with Harry?

A number of ideas have been floated on these, some providing a more direct link between the two and others not so much.

In regards to number 1, since an AK rebound seems to be one of the lesser viable ideas, a crux piece destruction mental link rebound or feedback seems to be the best option as it also provides a mechanism to explain what Voldy is doing in KC. I would be interested in hearing about how this works. Even though Harry and Voldy shared a mind link, the only time I know of that Voldy had a reaction was when he possessed Harry at the MoM. After that, Voldy steered clear of Harry. Also, the destruction of the piece in Harry I don't think would have affected Voldemort any more than the destruction of the pieces did. So, if there was a mind-link connection that stunned Voldy in the forest, I'm just curious how that really worked. My apologies if I am forgetting any posts in other threads that have already discussed this.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

I agree with this. Lily's protection caused the rebound, but it was the rebound and Voldemort's damaged soul that caused the Harrycrux. If Voldemort had not damaged his soul, Harry would not have gotten a piece of it, IMO.

Thanks.

I like the way you said that the Elder wand obeyed it's master and killed him. So, both the Elder wand and Voldy's old phoenix feather wand, would both have killed Harry, imo. I hope not - but you never know.

Except that the Elder Wand did not kill him. Dumbledore told Harry that the wand failed to kill him, or that Voldemort failed to kill him with that wand. He also told Harry the blood blood was responsible for tethering both he and Voldemort to life.

Whatever.

I don't think the Elder wand played a role in getting Harry and/or Voldemort to King's Cross. I think it was the tether/love protection/sacrifice thing.

I think it did - insofar as its refusal to kill its master. If Harry's phoenix-feather wand could recognize Voldemort as both kin and enemy and shoot one of Voldemort's spells at Voldemort, destroying Malfoy's wand - without Harry telling it to do so - then I believe the Elder Wand, the most dangerous wand on earth, could also make those kinds of distinctions.

Dumbledore said that in the shared-core connection in the cemetery Harry's wand imbibed some of Voldemort's power. Is it so outlandish that the Elder Wand, having been with Voldemort for several weeks and been used by him, would also pick up on the specifics of his connection with its true master? Remember: it knew Voldemort was not its master and thus spells he cast with it were not binding. I believe it sensed Harry's presence in the forest and in the Great Hall.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by LotusFawkes

So, there are two questions:

1) What stunned Voldemort?

2) How'd he end up in KC with Harry?

A number of ideas have been floated on these, some providing a more direct link between the two and others not so much.

In regards to number 1, since an AK rebound seems to be one of the lesser viable ideas, a crux piece destruction mental link rebound or feedback seems to be the best option as it also provides a mechanism to explain what Voldy is doing in KC. I would be interested in hearing about how this works. Even though Harry and Voldy shared a mind link, the only time I know of that Voldy had a reaction was when he possessed Harry at the MoM. After that, Voldy steered clear of Harry. Also, the destruction of the piece in Harry I don't think would have affected Voldemort any more than the destruction of the pieces did. So, if there was a mind-link connection that stunned Voldy in the forest, I'm just curious how that really worked. My apologies if I am forgetting any posts in other threads that have already discussed this.

This is confusing stuff, isn't it I agree that Voldemort didn't really feel his soul piece being destroyed when Harry was hit. So, that wasn't the agent that brought Voldemort to KC.

I haven't decided exactly what the mechanism was that brought him there. I am leaning toward the reason he passed out was just a reaction to his "real" soul being temporarily pulled to KC. I am still open to ideas on this one, though.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Except that the Elder Wand did not kill him. Dumbledore told Harry that the wand failed to kill him, or that Voldemort failed to kill him with that wand. He also told Harry the blood blood was responsible for tethering both he and Voldemort to life.

I know it is a matter of "how dead was Harry". I think he was "dead enough", or mostly dead (Princess Bride reference) for the soul piece to die, but not dead enough to really die.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

I think it did - insofar as its refusal to kill its master. If Harry's phoenix-feather wand could recognize Voldemort as both kin and enemy and shoot one of Voldemort's spells at Voldemort, destroying Malfoy's wand - without Harry telling it to do so - then I believe the Elder Wand, the most dangerous wand on earth, could also make those kinds of distinctions.

Dumbledore said that in the shared-core connection in the cemetery Harry's wand imbibed some of Voldemort's power. Is it so outlandish that the Elder Wand, having been with Voldemort for several weeks and been used by him, would also pick up on the specifics of his connection with its true master? Remember: it knew Voldemort was not its master and thus spells he cast with it were not binding. I believe it sensed Harry's presence in the forest and in the Great Hall.

Good point.

[thru_n_thru]

I'm loving the new directions the conversation has taken and have been reading all of your ideas. Very interesting stuff!!

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Remember: it knew Voldemort was not its master and thus spells he cast with it were not binding. I believe it sensed Harry's presence in the forest and in the Great Hall.

I think the wand's AK curse worked just fine on Harry in the forest because Harry didn't fight it. The AK curse undoubtedly hit Harry and "killed" him, so the fact that Voldemort was not the true master of the wand did not affect the deadliness of the curse he cast with it. The wand may have recognized that Harry was not fighting it or the wand may have been confused by the piece of Voldy's soul in Harry and therefore didn't recognize Harry as its true master until after the Harrycrux soul piece was gone, but either way the AK curse was binding, and it was only the blood bond that tethered Harry to life and gave him the choice to go back.

Voldemort's spells were only not binding after Harry sacrificed himself and inadvertently cast protection on everyone at Hogwarts, not beccause the wand knew Voldemort was not its true master. Before the King's Cross scene, the wand worked fine for Voldemort, just not extraordinarily as Voldemort hoped/expected. In the Shriekking Shack scene, Snape tells Voldy that he has seen him perform extraordinary magic with the wand, and Voldemort more or less says NO, it performs my ordinary magic which just seems extraordinary to you because I'm an extraordinary wizard.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Except that the Elder Wand did not kill him. Dumbledore told Harry that the wand failed to kill him, or that Voldemort failed to kill him with that wand.

I think this is trying to define what death means in its usual sense? For JKR Harry's brush with death is completely unique. Harry would have died without the tether in Voldemort, otherwise the tether is useless. Right?

If we zoom back from that "AK kill event" and just read to the end of KC, then it's obvious Harry never chose to die. Most of us here agree this KC event was outside of Time, so Harry never died coming back into Time. Right?

One, two, three: Harry never died, when he came back into time.

Harry chose to not wink-out to death, but Harry had to wink-in to meet & greet death.

Hey! Light bulb idea? . . .

Voldemort-KC represents Death & the Fear of Death too? As a twist on the story of the three brothers, Harry was the fearless KC Master of Death deciding Death even for Lord Voldemort in some unique way too??? Harry made a conscious choice not to die, so their fates were sealed to win or die. He had to look the real Voldemort in the soul-eye to mark that decision as the MoD and as a man. It's time to duel.

Ok, *IF* Rookie_Angel will Wand the ultimate Wingardium Leviosa to this idea, with her core matched to Harry's pure soul and heart, then I'll say Lord Voldemort had to be there too!

Originally Posted by purplehawk

He also told Harry the blood blood was responsible for tethering both he and Voldemort to life.

Not sure about what you mean by tethering *both* ? You mean "both", as one attached at each end of one tether making "both" ?

Originally Posted by purplehawk

If Harry's phoenix-feather wand could recognize Voldemort as both kin and enemy and shoot one of Voldemort's spells at Voldemort, destroying Malfoy's wand - without Harry telling it to do so - then I believe the Elder Wand, the most dangerous wand on earth, could also make those kinds of distinctions.

I think it took *two* identical core Wands to share that Fear of Death vs Courage to face Death and weigh-in their magical values. The twin cores are on the same frequency and can transmit the battle of their wand-owner Wills and the sources of their Power, which allow the new magic to form and attack the weaker magical foe.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Dumbledore said that in the shared-core connection in the cemetery Harry's wand imbibed some of Voldemort's power. Is it so outlandish that the Elder Wand, having been with Voldemort for several weeks and been used by him, would also pick up on the specifics of his connection with its true master? Remember: it knew Voldemort was not its master and thus spells he cast with it were not binding. I believe it sensed Harry's presence in the forest and in the Great Hall.

But Harry said his sacrifice offered protection for everyone? Was it the Wand or the Sacrifice or ?


Luna blessings...

[thru_n_thru]

Originally Posted by wandrider

If we zoom back from that "AK kill event" and just read to the end of KC, then it's obvious Harry never chose to die. Most of us here agree this KC event was outside of Time, so Harry never died coming back into Time. Right?

One, two, three: Harry never died.

Harry chose to not wink-out to death, but Harry had to wink-in to meet & greet death.

LOL... I think I'm in the group that doesn't include "most of us' because I'm convinced Harry's body had to "die" in order to be "magically damaged beyond repair" and therefore cease being a Horcrux. Harry had the choice to return and not go on to true death, which is why Dumbledore said "on the whole" Harry wasn't dead, but Harry was temporarily "dead" even though he wasn't irrevocably dead. So, sorry about not joining in the "One,two,three" chant ... he did die, but he chose to come back to life, IMO .

Originally Posted by wandrider

Was it the Wand or the Sacrifice or ?

I think it was definitely the sacrifice, as per my post prior to this one .

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by thru_n_thru

LOL... I think I'm in the group that doesn't include "most of us' because I'm convinced Harry's body had to "die" in order to be "magically damaged beyond repair" and therefore cease being a Horcrux. Harry had the choice to return and not go on to true death, which is why Dumbledore said "on the whole" Harry wasn't dead, but Harry was temporarily "dead" even though he wasn't irrevocably dead. So, sorry about not joining in the "One,two,three" chant ... he did die, but he chose to come back to life, IMO .

Sshhhh, I agree with your opinion.

Don't ya'know by now?

Ok, I made it into a rhyme just for you . . .

1, 2, 3 . . .

If we zoom back from that "AK kill event" and just read to the end of KC, then it's obvious Harry never chose to die. Most of us here agree this KC event was outside of Time, so Harry never died coming back into Time. Right?

Ready?

One, two, three: Harry never died, when he came back into time.


Luna blessings...

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by thru_n_thru

Voldemort's spells were only not binding after Harry sacrificed himself and inadvertently cast protection on everyone at Hogwarts, not beccause the wand knew Voldemort was not its true master. Before the King's Cross scene, the wand worked fine for Voldemort, just not extraordinarily as Voldemort hoped/expected. In the Shriekking Shack scene, Snape tells Voldy that he has seen him perform extraordinary magic with the wand, and Voldemort more or less says NO, it performs my ordinary magic which just seems extraordinary to you because I'm an extraordinary wizard.

The wand did not work "fine" for Voldemort before the forest scene. The fact that the wand didn't work for him as advertised was the reason he killed Snape. He thought Snape was the true master of the Elder Wand. With him out of the way, Voldemort thought he had become the master of the Elder Wand. Only trouble is, he killed the wrong man. And the one he needed to kill was never going to die by that particular wand.

I do not believe Harry actually died in the forest. I think the fact that he intended to die without a fight accomplished the same purpose.

The Final Battle "... Don't you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people - " "But you did not!" " - I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did. They're protected from you... "

Originally Posted by wandrider

Not sure about what you mean by tethering *both* ? You mean "both", as one attached at each end of one tether making "both" ?

Both as in Harry and Voldemort.

But Harry said his sacrifice offered protection for everyone? Was it the Wand or the Sacrifice or ?

It was both. The sacrifice worked and maybe would have truly killed Harry had the AK been cast with any wand other than the Elder Wand. That wand was not going to kill Harry, no matter what, but it did recognize and kill the alien portion of Harry's soul.

[Aliena]

Usually you hear about someone's heart stopping and the doctors trying to revive them while they decide to move toward the light, until someone sends them back. I don't personally think unconscious really does it.

I don't think just being unconscious would allow one to have a near-death experience - but it could certainly allow one to have an out-of-body experience, which I think is what Voldemort had (though I don't think he realized what it was, as it was so short for him).

Even though Harry and Voldy shared a mind link, the only time I know of that Voldy had a reaction was when he possessed Harry at the MoM.

You might call it a 'reaction' when Harry felt 'the snake' rising up in him in OOTP just before they took the Portkey to the Burrow. But then again, Harry had never been through something as extreme as being killed-but-not-killed before.

Also, the destruction of the piece in Harry I don't think would have affected Voldemort any more than the destruction of the pieces did. So, if there was a mind-link connection that stunned Voldy in the forest, I'm just curious how that really worked. My apologies if I am forgetting any posts in other threads that have already discussed this.

I think it's the mind-link *combined with* the blood link; the Holmes/Moriarty comparison is a good visual for me, as I can picture them grappling and basically 'wrapped together' as they fall. I think Harry and Voldemort were similarly entwined on the non-physical (soul and mind) level, and so where Harry went, Voldemort went also.

Except that the Elder Wand did not kill him. Dumbledore told Harry that the wand failed to kill him, or that Voldemort failed to kill him with that wand. He also told Harry the blood blood was responsible for tethering both he and Voldemort to life.

Dumbledore did tell Harry that Voldemort failed to kill him with that wand, but not that it was because it was that wand; I took it as it was because of the blood bond. I don't recall him saying the blood bond tethered Voldemort to life - only that while Voldemort lived, so did Harry and so did Voldemort's one last hope for himself.

I think I'm in the group that doesn't include "most of us' because I'm convinced Harry's body had to "die" in order to be "magically damaged beyond repair" and therefore cease being a Horcrux. Harry had the choice to return and not go on to true death, which is why Dumbledore said "on the whole" Harry wasn't dead, but Harry was temporarily "dead" even though he wasn't irrevocably dead.

Yes, it gets a little tricky with the wording, but I agree - the "VCR flickering out" theory fits for me. Harry did not DIE as in dead, gone, no longer living; I think he was momentarily *clinically* dead.