The Creature at King's Cross

[LotusFawkes]

Originally Posted by chparadise

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

I think it's Volemort's soul, the one in his body, looking the way it does because of all the damage he's done to it.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

I agree because when given the chance for remorse he couldn't muster the humanity to feel any. I don't think he had much humanity to start with, so, I think he started out stunted and then proceeded to flay it raw. However, I can understand if people think he made it small by taking chunks out, because if, on the snowball's chance he managed some remorse, he would only be able to repair the damage of what remained of his soul after having lost all those pieces.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Yes, I think so.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

Good question. Not sure there's an answer for that. I do think the mind link plays a role as well as the blood link. I'm just not so sure the AK curse didn't rebound even though very few people think so. All we really know from the text is that Harry saw Voldy's lips move and the green flash. Once we return to real time after KC Station, Voldy is on the ground after having apparently collapsed too. The immediate aftermath in real time after Harry goes unconscious is not stated and hence is left as an unknown and is therefore wide open. [N.B. Upon further reading, I would like to point out that in the final duel Voldemort's curse rebounds on him but there is no description of the green flash reversing or of the Great Hall being blasted. All it says is that the spells collided and then the Elder Wand flies high. So, if it can rebound without any special effects, why not in the forest too? I found this after I had already written the rest of this post but this seemed like the right place to put it.]

Personally (and now with the above further reading as support), I think the AK curse did rebound the same as when Harry was a baby though it didn't blow the forest around them to bits this time. I think that's why Dumbledore told Snape it was essential Voldemort be the one to kill Harry (in addition to fulfilling the terms of the prophecy), because, what keeps Voldy from turning into Vapormort again is the blood link that prevents the backlash of the AK curse from destroying his body which is what gives Harry his tether. But it is sufficient to stun him the same as Harry into limbo world. Hence, they both end up there. But as to why Harry can see him there I do indeed think is related to the double bond they had. But then, if Dumbledore is there, who knows if he doesn't have some part to play in allowing Harry to see what Voldy's soul really looks like.

The reason why Voldemort having Harry's blood is his one last chance is because it's the tether that enables Harry to return and give Voldy exactly that chance. Harry has seen what Voldemort's soul looks like and what it will continue to be if Voldemort doesn't try for some remorse. Nothing can be done for the dead, and so nothing CAN be done while Harry is in Kings Cross even if he's not really dead yet. There just isn't any way to interact with the thing under the chair and now there is no way to enter its mind with the crux piece gone (just had an epiphany here). That is why Dumbledore tells Harry not to pity the dead, but to pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

I think he was wherever they were. As for his perception of it, I think that's wide open. Reading the description of the way Harry wakes up at KC, and given what we know of Voldemort, I am pretty certain they are not having the same experience. I suppose it could be said it's Voldy's own version but I would NOT want to imagine it.

Staff note: Please be respectful of fellow posters and keep in mind this thread. Failure to do so may result in the loss of the right to post within this thread.

[mariebeth83]

I just feel that if it was the part of Voldemort's soul that was in Voldemort then there would have been some kind of change in Voldemort that would have clued us in to that fact. That's why I'm going with the flayed baby being the part of the soul that was in Harry. Yes it was destroyed, but only on earth. Hopefully it continues on in the afterlife being punished for what he did for an eternity.

Imagine - his soul is in 8 pieces so does that mean he gets punished 8 times over??? that would be justice!

[Aliena]

I would like to point out that in the final duel Voldemort's curse rebounds on him but there is no description of the green flash reversing or of the Great Hall being blasted. All it says is that the spells collided and then the Elder Wand flies high. So, if it can rebound without any special effects, why not in the forest too?

Well, there were special effects, the golden flames in the center of the circle where the spells collided, but this would not be the case in the Forest even if the AK did rebound. I think the blasting at Godric's Hollow was due more to Lily's sacrifice - such a powerful, ancient magic - since the Great Hall wasn't destroyed the other time we know for sure that the AK rebounded. In the Great Hall scene, we don't know that there *wasn't* a green flash, when the curse rebounded. We are watching the Elder Wand spinning through the air and being caught by Harry while the AK is rebounding, so we don't 'see' what was happening on the other side of the circle. So it could go either way - there was green light on the rebound, or there wasn't. We may never know for sure.

I just feel that if it was the part of Voldemort's soul that was in Voldemort then there would have been some kind of change in Voldemort that would have clued us in to that fact.

I think the collapse and return at the same time as Harry, along with Voldemort being wary of approaching Harry until it is confirmed that he is dead, does give us a clue to the fact that Voldemort knows something happened - but falling down and being 'out' for two or three seconds probably isn't enough of an experience to effect a massive personality change.

[imacheeto]

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
It's part of Voldy's soul

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?
piece within Harry, duuh, otherwise Voldemort wouldn't have still been alive in the forest.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
I thought he had died, but maybe she meant that that was him in Hell i guess.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
I just think it shows that Harry is now rid of Voldemort's soul

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
He didn't, he fell in the Great Hall... Voldemort is still laughing when Harry comes back, so obviously Voldemort didn't have the same experiance

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
Like I said, Voldmort didn't go to King's Cross (well the part of him in Harry did) and he wasn't unconsious. Either that or I'm having a severe misunderstanding about this and I'm sounding like an idiot lol.


7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?
THE CREATURE IS THE PART OF VOLDEMORT THAT WAS IN HARRY. that IS the explanation.

[Aliena]

He didn't, he fell in the Great Hall... Voldemort is still laughing when Harry comes back, so obviously Voldemort didn't have the same experiance

I'm not sure what part of the book you're remembering, but Voldemort wasn't laughing when Harry came back from King's Cross; he had fallen, and the Death Eaters were gathering around him and some tried to help him back to his feet. This is at the very beginning of the chapter, "The Flaw in the Plan" - but I don't have my book here now so can't quote it for you or give a page number. Hopefully someone else can help you out in that regard.

[NRHP]

Originally Posted by chparadise

At King's Cross, Harry and Dumbledore converse while in the presence of
(DH P 706, US Hardback)
The form is depicted as struggling for breath and unwanted, and Dumbledore notes "you cannot help".

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?

It is what remains of Voldemort's soul after all this ripping business...

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?

It is the piece that resided within Voldemort. The piece in Harry was destroyed when Harry "died" from the AK.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?

Assuming King's Cross shows a transitional state a soul has to cross after dying before going on, Voldemort is probably to weak to ever pass on and is forced to suffer in Limbo for eternity.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?

Yes. Due to the blood connection, the AK pulled both Harry's and Voldemort's souls from their bodies (making them unconscious).

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?

See above.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?

He was. But due to his mutiliated state he was not able to act there or even notice and understand what was going on there. So he wasn't able to spy on Harry's conversation with Dumbledore.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?

I don't have one.

Staff note: Please be respectful of fellow posters and keep in mind this thread. Failure to do so may result in the loss of the right to post within this thread.

[Shewoman]

Since Harry tells Voldemort in their last encounter that he's seen what Voldemort will be if he doesn't experience remorse, I think the "flayed baby" has to be the part of Voldemort's soul that was still in his body and that's what Harry is referring to. If that's NOT what Harry is referring to, what does he mean when he says he's seen what a remorseless Voldemort's future is?

[LotusFawkes]

Originally Posted by Aliena

Well, there were special effects, the golden flames in the center of the circle where the spells collided, but this would not be the case in the Forest even if the AK did rebound. I think the blasting at Godric's Hollow was due more to Lily's sacrifice - such a powerful, ancient magic - since the Great Hall wasn't destroyed the other time we know for sure that the AK rebounded. In the Great Hall scene, we don't know that there *wasn't* a green flash, when the curse rebounded. We are watching the Elder Wand spinning through the air and being caught by Harry while the AK is rebounding, so we don't 'see' what was happening on the other side of the circle. So it could go either way - there was green light on the rebound, or there wasn't. We may never know for sure.

Yes, all quite true giving us lots of room to speculate.

What I go by is that the AK curse tends to rebound on Voldemort when it's aimed directly Harry. Dumbledore knew this and I see that as the reason he had that gleam of triumph when he heard that Voldy had taken Harry's blood to reconstruct his body. When the moment came to destroy the crux piece in Harry, Voldemort himself would need to deliver the blow. And as it had been when Harry was made a Horcrux, it would rebound. Without Lily's protection in Voldemort's body, he would have been reduced to Vapormort again and there would have been no tether for Harry's return. This is of course, just the way I've pieced it together using the principles of Occam's Razor. Not to say that anyone else doesn't have a plausible explanation.

[hagrids_wench]

1 and 2
I believe it is all that Voldemort’s soul was or all that it ever was to begin with. Possibly it is what Voldemort could have started with but left it “unwanted” so this is what never had the chance to develop. Voldemort definitely abused his soul as he abused everyone around him so the “flayed” and “raw” look punctuates this. Anyway, I see this as part of Voldemort not Harry.
3
I thought it was the only thing that Voldemort could be allowed to do in the end. In that chapterI remembered Dickens’ Carol . There was a piece in which Father Christmas parts his robes and shows two wizened and sickly looking children attached to him. He said that one was called “Greed” and the other “Want” and then when Harry was at King’s Cross the “infantile” creature immediately impressed me as all that was left of/or what Voldemort would come to in the end. I do not think there was a choice.

How could Voldemort be anything other than a stunted unfulfilled life? Maybe the unwanted “baby-thing” at King’s Cross was what was left of the potential that Voldemort once had and had not wanted.

He is stunted as anyone would be that did not understand that victories and failures both lead people to fulfilled lives. Without the dark and the light we are not whole. If we are to see Voldemort as existing after the end of Hallows then the only choice is that he should be as stunted in non-life as he was in life.

As I am about 100 miles away from my copy of DH I guess I will not trust my memory of the fall in the forest. I do know that I didn’t connect it to King’s Cross but I don’t remember why I didn’t.

I do have a thought about number 6 though. If Harry and Dumbledore and the others that supported Harry could “exist” in some sort of an after form and Harry could be given the choice to stay or go back I do not see why Voldemort wouldn’t have been in the same position at some point in time. Maybe he is in his own private Limbo or Hell. Voldemort made his choice years ago so the thing at King’s Cross is what he is left with. What a prize!

[Aliena]

What I go by is that the AK curse tends to rebound on Voldemort when it's aimed directly Harry.

Can you call it a 'tendency' when it only happened once? In GOF, in the graveyard, the AK Voldemort aims directly at Harry does not rebound, so when the scene in the Forest happens it's really at 1-1.

Dumbledore knew this and I see that as the reason he had that gleam of triumph when he heard that Voldy had taken Harry's blood to reconstruct his body. When the moment came to destroy the crux piece in Harry, Voldemort himself would need to deliver the blow.

I interpreted the gleam of triumph as relating to the fact that Voldemort had now tethered Harry to life, as long as Voldemort lived. Which also explains why Voldemort would need to deliver the blow to destroy the Harrycrux - the blood protection is specific to Harry and Voldemort, and I do think that if someone else had tried to kill Harry, he may well have died.

And as it had been when Harry was made a Horcrux, it would rebound. Without Lily's protection in Voldemort's body, he would have been reduced to Vapormort again and there would have been no tether for Harry's return. This is of course, just the way I've pieced it together using the principles of Occam's Razor. Not to say that anyone else doesn't have a plausible explanation.

Oh, sure, throw Occam's Razor back at me. Of course, for my interpretation Voldemort wouldn't have turned into Vapormort, either, since there was no AK that hit him, so Harry's tether remains intact. Either scenario could work; I tend to fall back on the fact that every other time the AK rebounded we were specifically told that it rebounded, but I do know that doesn't mean it didn't happen in the Forest.

If Harry and Dumbledore and the others that supported Harry could “exist” in some sort of an after form and Harry could be given the choice to stay or go back I do not see why Voldemort wouldn’t have been in the same position.

I see that as related to the maimed and mutilated state of Voldemort's soul. Dumbledore has tried to warn him that there are things worse than death, and I think this is partly to what he was referring - this eternal existence in a damaged state, unable to fully move on. Had he shown remorse at the end, there's a possibility he might have healed his soul enough to escape that fate.

[hagrids_wench]

Originally Posted by Aliena

I see that as related to the maimed and mutilated state of Voldemort's soul. Dumbledore has tried to warn him that there are things worse than death, and I think this is partly to what he was referring - this eternal existence in a damaged state, unable to fully move on. Had he shown remorse at the end, there's a possibility he might have healed his soul enough to escape that fate.

Exactly. He made his choice when he was a young man. The Thing is what he is left with. I cannot imagine a state that Voldemort would less like to be in than this one...totally helpless and unwanted with no help for him.

(I should have previewed my post that font is terribly hard to read.)

[LoveWeasleys]

Great Poll and Thread chparadise

Okay it is my belief that the flayed baby at King's Cross was the piece of Voldy soul that was inside Harry. It was shown as a flayed baby because Voldy's soul was so broken and split that baisically was reduced to small helpless and deformed baby in the "afterlife".

It was connected to why Voldy fell backwards because it was a part of his soul that he himself killed. All the other horcruxes were destroyed by others, but there must be some sort of penality for destroying your soul by your own hand.

The soul showed up in King's Cross because it was not whole and could not pass on. That is what I believe happened to Voldy after his death and because of the number of rips his soul had...he was reduced to the flayed baby and will never reach the afterlife...kind of a fate worse than death don't you think?

[LotusFawkes]

Originally Posted by Aliena

Can you call it a 'tendency' when it only happened once? In GOF, in the graveyard, the AK Voldemort aims directly at Harry does not rebound, so when the scene in the Forest happens it's really at 1-1.

Yes, the GoF scene is an interesting one. They both used exactly the same spells as in the final battle, but the outcomes were completely different. In GoF there is the battle of wills between the two wizards each using a wand that is brother to the other containing a Phoenix feather core from the same Phoenix--Fawkes. Harry's will wins out against Voldemort and we see the Priori Incantatem of Voldemort's wand. In the final battle the wands are different and so are the circumstances. I can see lots of fun with this one, but perhaps for another thread.

But you are right, the record is still only 1-1 at this point. I do like the symmetry though that Harry was completely defenseless when he was made a Horcrux and when he goes to the forest and lets Voldy AK him. I'm not saying symmetry is proof there was a rebound, just more grist for the mill.

Originally Posted by Aliena

I interpreted the gleam of triumph as relating to the fact that Voldemort had now tethered Harry to life, as long as Voldemort lived. Which also explains why Voldemort would need to deliver the blow to destroy the Harrycrux - the blood protection is specific to Harry and Voldemort, and I do think that if someone else had tried to kill Harry, he may well have died.

No argument there. The blood link was definitely needed for Harry's tether.

Originally Posted by Aliena

Oh, sure, throw Occam's Razor back at me. Of course, for my interpretation Voldemort wouldn't have turned into Vapormort, either, since there was no AK that hit him, so Harry's tether remains intact. Either scenario could work; I tend to fall back on the fact that every other time the AK rebounded we were specifically told that it rebounded, but I do know that doesn't mean it didn't happen in the Forest.

Sorry about Occam's Razor, I just couldn't help myself. And so, we have alternate views. Hopefully someday someone will ask JKR whether or not the curse rebounded in the forest. Until then, happy theorizing.

[wandrider]

I was SHOCKED to learn the other two parent threads to this one have been deleted. An enormous amount of smart brain power and knowledge went into the development of both those threads, The Flayed Baby at King's Cross (over 500 posts) and Why was Voldemort Knocked-out in the Forest ? (about 100 posts) and now it's just POOF, erased. ? ? ? ? ?

The MuggleNet owner wizard's should reevaluate such a policy, imo. ? ? ? ? ?

Here is some relevant data that was lost from the deleted Flayed Baby thread . . .

The 499 posts are sorted into 4 categories below:

65 . . . HARRYCRUX SOUL

61 . . . VOLDY SOUL . . . only 33% support this idea.

53 . . . NOT HARRYCRUX OR VOLYSOUL KC. IT'S SOMETHING(S) ELSE . . . 29%

07 . . . CAN'T MAKE-UP THEIR MIND - CONFUSED

186. . . COUNTED Unique Opinions counted once, hopefully.
+
313. . . NOT COUNTED because already counted or post doesn't address issue.
=
499 Total Posts Surveyed

I will also note more votes got counted towards VoldySoul, because many people were unclear between it being VoldySoul in the Forest or VoldySoul's *form* it became *after* the Great Hall death. This skewed the numbers more in favor towards Voldy Soul, because that category got that count. As I noted before, everyone will agree THE FORM is what we saw at KC according to JKR. That point does not help *any* side of the debate as to which soul that is. It's just *the form* vs Ghost form. This caused numbers to increase in the Something Else category too, because some people were clear about *future tense* being Voldy's Soul. What it would *become*, but, then, nothing was added in the post to indicate what it was at KC. These are the critical reasons why the third category, Something Else, needed to be counted. There is some margin of error here, but at least I'm not counting punch card chads.

Clearly and obviously, imo, framing the debate one-way in favor of it being VoldySoul is flawed just as it is flawed to not include people with other ideas of Something Else. I am a proud member of Something Else. (But it might be HarrycruxSoul or VoldySoul, though given a choice, I would lean towards . . . See my post 3 in this thread for my current ideas.)

What is the Something Else category? Well, I got to tell you there were some exotic ideas in there too, but usually many thought it was Voldemort's future soul *after* the Great Hall. They often added it was HarrycruxSoul too. Making it a duality. Many thought it was too vague or symbolic 'to peg' what the soul was at KC, so they gave interesting ideas that would only allow me to put it in the Something Else category. Some thought it was all 8 pieces too. I think you get the idea . . .

The count I completed shown above on the Flayed Baby thread (a now erased parent thread to this one) did distinguish the categories much more clearly than the pole posted on this thread, imo. Why? Because the count I posted above had much more clearly defined categories, which framed the debate better for better understanding to distinguish between relevant categories, imo.

I did that count in the parent thread, because I have a liberal stance about respecting everyone's opinion about what is the flayed baby creature child.


Luna Blessings...

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

1. What do you think the form is? Is this a piece of Voldemort's soul? If not, what is it?
It was similar to the baby like form in GoF, I think it was almost definitely a piece of Voldemort's soul, weakened, pitiful, helpless. Some other member told me, but they said that it reminded them of a harlequin baby, it is sooooooo sad, but in the case of Voldemort, he deserves any harm that comes in his way.

2. If it is a piece of Voldemort's soul, is it the piece that was within Harry, or is it the piece that resided within Voldemort?
I suspect the piece in Harry. I think that the reason that Voldemort fainted or whatever happened was because of the blood bond. it's like there is a rope connected between them, and when Harry "died", the rope pulled on Voldemort harder than usual, making him almost going too.

If it was the soul piece in Voldemort, then maybe if harry died, he would too, so then the soul bond could work both ways, both negative to Voldemort. If it was, that would almost completely explain why Voldemort fainted.

3. JK Rowling notes in an interview that Voldemort is forced to exist in the stunted form that we see at King's Cross. What do you think about this?
He brought this upon himself. I like him, yes, but he deserves it. He could've just relied on the Elixir of Life, and used that, or even used Unicorn blood, and that would hurt him much less than horcruxes. He says that he doesn't like to rely on things, but using horcruxes is relying on them. He can always make more Elixir or stones, but after making so many horcruxes, that wouldn't work anymore.

4. Is the presence of the creature at King's Cross related to Voldemort's fall in the Forbidden Forest?
If it was Voldemort's soul, yes, if it was the horcrux soul, maybe but I don't think so.

5. Why does Voldemort fall within the forest?
I think that because of the blood bond, Harry brought Voldemort with him. while Voldemort could just hold on (kind of like a cliff thing, with Voldemort and Harry handcuffed together and Voldemort holding on). If Harry had decided to leave, he would've pulled voldemort down with him.

6. Was Voldemort in his own version of King's Cross or was he just unconscious?
I think he was just unconscious. Even if he was at King's Cross, he wouldn't be able to hear much, being what he was. If Harry decided to die, he would be.

7. If the fall in the forest is not related to the creature at King's Cross, then what is an alternative explanation?
Blood bond. (see question 5)

[wandrider]

This is a great point by Rookie_Angel (underneath this DH text) about the meaning or symbol of FlayChild under the chair at KC . . . Oh, I found the DH quote to go with it, so here this is first . . .

He knew at once that he had done the right thing; though he appeared to be
standing in water, his shoes, feet, and robes remained quite dry. He reached up,
pulled the chain, and next moment had zoomed down a short chute, emerging
out a fireplace into the Ministry of Magic.
He got up clumsily; there was a lot more of his body than he was accustomed
to. The great Atrium seemed darker than Harry remembered it. Previously a
golden fountain had filled the center of the hall, casting shimmering spots of
light over the polished wooden floor and walls. Now a gigantic statue of black
stone dominated the scene. It was rather frightening, this was sculpture of
a witch and a wizard sitting on ornately carved thrones, looking down at the
Ministry workers toppling out of fireplaces below them. Engraved in foot-high
letters at the base of the statue were the words MAGIC IS MIGHT.
Harry received a heavy blow on the back of the legs: Another wizard had
just flown out of the fireplace behind him.
“Out of the way, can’t y—oh, sorry, Runcorn!”
Clearly frightened, the balding wizard hurried away. Apparently the man
whom Harry was impersonating, Runcorn, was intimidating.
“Psst!” said a voice, and he looked around to see a wispy little witch and the
ferrety wizard from Magical Maintenance gesturing to him from over beside
the statue. Harry hastened to join them.
“You got in all right, then?” Hermione whispered to Harry.
“No, he’s still stuck in the bog,” said Ron.
“Oh, very funny . . . It’s horrible, isn’t it?” she said to Harry, who was staring
up at the statue. “Have you seen what they’re sitting on?”
Harry looked more closely and realized that what he had though were decoratively
carved thrones were actually mounds of carved human: hundreds and
hundreds of naked bodies, men, women, and children, all with rather stupid,
ugly faces, twisted and pressed together to support the weight of the handsomely robed wizards.
“Muggles,” whispered Hermione. “In their rightful place. Come on, let’s get
going.”

The point about the above DH quote is at the bottom of this post. These are Rookie_Angel's ideas in this post below. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Lamoid View Post
Although Harry is not actually dead, he has the choice to move on to the next world or return to the living.

Dumbledore makes it clear that harry is NOT dead and that the piece of Voldemort's soul HAS been destroyed.

While Harry indeed may not be dead at that exact "time" as DD speaks those words, even assuming they are in some sort of real time or equivalent, I do believe that he had been dead in the very immediate past, at least for a moment, so that the "container" can be destroyed to kill the Horcrux. I liken it to the power going out for a second on a VCR--that moment's flicker-out is enough to make the programming vanish, but then in the next second it's perfectly "alive" and working properly on all counts again, just without some unnecessary for survival stuff it had before. So just because DD says, "No, I think [you're alive]," that doesn't mean he hadn't just gone through a brief time of having been "clinically dead" (the time when people in real life tend to see the "white light", after all, though they aren't yet "really dead").

DD: HIs body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives, so do you and so does Voldemort's one last hope for himself

I agree with those who say that being tethered to life isn't the same as being totally alive the whole time just unconscious. If he never died in any way or degree, it wouldn't matter that his mother's sacrifice was still alive in Voldy--it would be still alive in Harry.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
Jo said this in the web-chat:
Live Webchat with JKR
Jon: Since voldemort was afraid of death, did he choose to be a ghost if so where does he haunt or is this not possible due to his horcruxes

J.K. Rowling: No, he is not a ghost. He is forced to exist in the stunted form we witnessed in King's Cross.

So what we saw in this scene was what Voldemort will become after he dies.

I personally think Harry and DD are rather outside of time here, and that the flayed child is representative all of V.'s afterlife, not just one piece, and I thought so before reading the above quote, and even moreso after reading it.

I don't think that JKR meant to leave questions open as to whether he was "in that form" or "as that form." That's a pretty fine hair to split. Barring remorse at the final battle--which he didn't show, that was him, that was his afterlife.

I don't think V. had to literally be alive, dead, in horcrux form, there physically, whatever Part A or B through H of his soul was alive or dead, or popped like a balloon, right then, or that we know the precise answer to any of those fine-toothed questions, or that be in those states at that same exact time, in order for the accurate vision of the child to be visible to Harry in the magical mythical crossroads where Harry was. I certainly don't think V. was in any way conscious or seeing it all. Remember that Harry said, "I've seen what you'll become" not "We've seen what you'll become."

Originally Posted by sirwyatt View Post
but is there any reason why it was under a chair?

WOW! I didn't realize it, but YES! This question blew my mind--and suddenly I had the YES! But no one else, at least as far as I've read, has seemed to connect this pointed question to it's obvious-to-me answer that flew to my mind, which I hadn't thought of at all until reading this perfect, brilliant question. Did no one else think of the image of the Throne of Muggles? Very symbolic. He wanted to be the wizard on the chair beneath which others were captive in misery, only to become the miserable, hopeless being stuck under a chair himself!


Luna blessings...

[RemusLupinFan]

Originally Posted by wandrider

I certainly don't think V. was in any way conscious or seeing it all. Remember that Harry said, "I've seen what you'll become" not "We've seen what you'll become."

I tend to agree that Voldemort was not physically experiencing what Harry sees at King's Cross. I addition to that quote by Harry, Voldemort's manner after he wakes up from being unconscious indicates to me that he hadn't experienced being the flayed child: his voice is described as merely being cold, rather than being shaken in any way, which I think he would be if he'd actually experienced existing as the flayed child.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan

I tend to agree that Voldemort was not physically experiencing what Harry sees at King's Cross. I addition to that quote by Harry, Voldemort's manner after he wakes up from being unconscious indicates to me that he hadn't experienced being the flayed child: his voice is described as merely being cold, rather than being shaken in any way, which I think he would be if he'd actually experienced existing as the flayed child.

Right. Dumbledore told Harry: "It's your party." I doubt that meant Voldemort was sharing it, particularly as Harry no longer had the scar - meaning that connection no longer existed - and the Harrycrux had been utterly destroyed by the AK in the forest.

I honestly think the Elder Wand intended to kill Voldemort in the forest and that's why Voldemort was knocked unconscious. The wand recognized the enemy within Harry and took it out. I think it then rebounded in an attempt to kill Voldemort, knocking him senseless, but the blood bond revived them both.

What I can't get my mind around is what would have happened to Voldemort had Harry decided to go "on." Would he have returned to his Baby Vapormort existence with just one horcrux (Nagini) remaining?

Damned thing drives me nuts!

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan

I tend to agree that Voldemort was not physically experiencing what Harry sees at King's Cross. I addition to that quote by Harry, Voldemort's manner after he wakes up from being unconscious indicates to me that he hadn't experienced being the flayed child: his voice is described as merely being cold, rather than being shaken in any way, which I think he would be if he'd actually experienced existing as the flayed child.

Precisely. I believe just what you said.

When I subtracted out what Harry was thinking and just showed Voldemort's comments, it seems, imo, he had no clue where Harry was. It seemed he just reacted as if he fell unconscious for a few seconds at most. (See post #67 to read Voldemort's exact words upon waking.)

Personally, I believe Voldemort will have full mind function in the afterlife, because every soul and ghost does too (even portrait people). And, Voldy had that same mind function running on 1/8th at the Great Hall before he died.

Voldemort was just briefly knocked unconscious, imo.


Luna blessings...

[the_helena]

I think the flayed child is Voldemort's soul.

I think this because when Harry is at King's Cross, it is noted that he is garment-less.

The flayed child is likewise. Harry is supposedly clean and pure and only has the scar on his forehead. The child on the otherhand, is struggling for breath and flayed looking. This shows the contrast between Harry's pure soul and Voldemort's torn one.

What I'm TRYING to get across IS this:

The scared/flayed child-Voldemort's damanged soul(damanged from so many Horcruxes)

Pure Harry-Harry's clean, good soul.


Yep. That's what I think.