The Creature at King's Cross

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

I still don't quite see how "remorse" at the last moment would have redeemed Tom Riddle and would be grateful if someone explained it to me, thanks.

Here's some interesting thoughts from JKR after DH explaining more about remorse . . .

Notice she uses the words redemption, hope, and repent. These could play a role in the analysis of this topic.

The word 'hope' is used in that important quote from DD in KC.

“He took your blood believing it would strengthen him. He took into his body
a tiny part of the enchantment your mother laid upon you when she died for
you. His body keeps her sacrifice alive, and while that enchantment survives,
so do you and so does Voldemort’s one last hope for himself.”

MV: Why was it important to you, Jo, to write about the cruelty and inhumanity?

JKR: I'm not sure why. But it was what I wanted to write about most. And it's about choice. And you are shown that Voldemort. Ummm... I suppose we're going to call him a psychopath. But he's so, in many ways, he is what he is and he's beyond redemption. Although this being Harry Potter and because I can take liberties because I have magic in my world, it is shown at the very end of the book that he did have a chance for redemption because he had taken into his body this-- this drop of hope or love--

MV: Harry's blood.

JKR: Right. So that meant that if he could have mustered the courage to repent, he would have been okay. But, of course, he wouldn't. And that's his choice. But the people around him, that's what's more interesting in a way. The people who were drawn to evil for protection, for power, sadism. But people who do have a choice, who did make a choice, like the Malfoys of this world. And I think that's always worth examining why people choose to make those decisions.
===

Some words related to redemption are: recovery; retrieval; rescue; deliverance; delivery; saving.


Luna blessings...

[LotusFawkes]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

I still don't quite see how "remorse" at the last moment would have redeemed Tom Riddle and would be grateful if someone explained it to me, thanks.

Perhaps it's not about putting pieces back together. Perhaps its about understanding the value of life beyond one's own. Perhaps, as many science fiction writers have explored, it is about learning what it means to be fully human and not merely a two-legged animal that kills for pleasure.

As Dumbledore says to Harry, "If he could only have understood the precise and terrible power of that sacrifice, he would not, perhaps, have dared to touch your blood... But then, if he had been able to understand, he could not be Lord Voldemort, and might never have murdered at all." (p. 710)

The hallmark of a human being is the ability to commiserate, to feel empathy. Without that, there is no "humanity" in the person. If Voldemort could have mustered even some remorse for what he had done, I'm not sure how JKR would have explained it, but I do believe there is more to this ancient magic of love than we can possibly know. I would like to believe if Voldemort would have felt even some remorse, it would have been sufficient to heal enough of the damage he had done and be given the choice to "move on." But as it was, he had no humanity, no fellow-feeling, and remorse was beyond his capability.

[MHPFAN]

I say it's what was a part of Voldemort that lived in Harry. When Voldy cast the Avada Kedavra curse (which, I'm sure that's what it was) it left Harry's body. It's reminiscent of when Voldemort was first vapor, and not quite a person/human/soul.

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by MHPFAN

I say it's what was a part of Voldemort that lived in Harry. When Voldy cast the Avada Kedavra curse (which, I'm sure that's what it was) it left Harry's body. It's reminiscent of when Voldemort was first vapor, and not quite a person/human/soul.

I used to think so too, or at least balancing between that answer, and the one saying it's the whole of Voldemort's "reconstituted" soul. I now favor the latter answer.

P.S. I like your signature, it's quite clever and technically impressive.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan

I tend to agree that Voldemort was not physically experiencing what Harry sees at King's Cross. I addition to that quote by Harry, Voldemort's manner after he wakes up from being unconscious indicates to me that he hadn't experienced being the flayed child: his voice is described as merely being cold, rather than being shaken in any way, which I think he would be if he'd actually experienced existing as the flayed child.

Want to know what Voldemort was doing and saying the instant he spoke after regaining awareness from falling unconscious momentarily? Here is LV without all the Harry self-talk thinking.

DH KC LV . . .

“That will do,” said Voldemort’s voice.

“I do not require assistance,” said Voldemort coldly,

“You,” said Voldemort, and there was a bang and a small shriek of pain.
“Examine him. Tell me whether he is dead.”

“You see?” screeched Voldemort over the tumult. “Harry Potter is dead by
my hand, and no man alive can threaten me now! Watch! Crucio!”

“Now,” said Voldemort, “we go to the castle, and show them what has become
of their hero. Who shall drag the body? No—Wait—”


Luna blessings...

[purplehawk]

Ah, but the quotes don't cover what's going on in his mind. Harry was right in thinking that Voldemort wasn't sure things had gone to plan. Personally, I bet he was scared to death in those first moments.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Ah, but the quotes don't cover what's going on in his mind. Harry was right in thinking that Voldemort wasn't sure things had gone to plan. Personally, I bet he was scared to death in those first moments.

I suggest otherwise. Voldy was only concerned by the fact he fell unconscious. He knew the AK didn't work twice before, so he was *always* going to check the body to be sure. Twice before he knew Harry didn't die, but this time Harry appears dead. Voldemort is obviously unscathed unlike Harry, and he cracks the whip to have him checked.

And, if you want to believe Harry, then believe this too:

Harry had been expecting it, knew his body would not be allowed to remain unsullied upon the forest floor; it must be subjected to humiliation to prove Voldemort’s victory.

Harry does not think Voldemort is being sure he's dead or is afraid at this point, unlike numerous posts to the contrary, Harry knows Voldemort is the egomaniac bloodthirsty showman that he is. This is an act of humiliation and victory. It's the wizard form of cutting the head off and hanging it on a spear.

It's the primal act of a victor over his vanquished. "Drag the body."


Luna blessings...

[LotusFawkes]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Ah, but the quotes don't cover what's going on in his mind. Harry was right in thinking that Voldemort wasn't sure things had gone to plan. Personally, I bet he was scared to death in those first moments.

I agree. Even as far back as GoF when Dumbledore tells Harry about what happened with the wands, Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort was more afraid than Harry was that night, but you'd never know it from Voldy's behavior because he would never let on that he was not the most powerful wizard, ever.

[Artemis_Fowl_2]

Originally Posted by LotusFawkes

I agree. Even as far back as GoF when Dumbledore tells Harry about what happened with the wands, Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort was more afraid than Harry was that night, but you'd never know it from Voldy's behavior because he would never let on that he was not the most powerful wizard, ever.

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Ah, but the quotes don't cover what's going on in his mind. Harry was right in thinking that Voldemort wasn't sure things had gone to plan. Personally, I bet he was scared to death in those first moments.

I agree. Voldemort would not show it to his Death Eaters but he does not know why he was knocked out so my guess is that he is scared.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Ah, but the quotes don't cover what's going on in his mind. Harry was right in thinking that Voldemort wasn't sure things had gone to plan. Personally, I bet he was scared to death in those first moments.

This is all, wary and suspicious, Harry thinks about what LV thinks, which, btw, is guessing what LV thinks . . .

. . . Voldemort was wary of approaching him, that Voldemort suspected that all had not gone to plan. . . .

This is *not* surprising to Voldemort. It's the charm of three times now.

Fear? Let's see?

First time: Vapormort

Second time: Draw

Third time: Harry appears to be dead.

LV might have fallen unconscious briefly, but he comes back unscathed. Harry did absorb the very painful brunt of an AK. Voldy is standing and Harry is not within seconds.

Fear? Not much reason to have fear but for a brief moment. Yes, but, he also knows he's in control near the moment he awakes, since he is alive and Harry is lifeless on the ground.

I'd say there's some fear from his past experiences in the act of killing Harry, and that fear is mainly contained within the idea of those past uncertainties. That is simply *normal* precautionary fear and not a freak-out show.

Had LV been in KC and known it he would have been a completely different Voldemort. He would have been a freak-out show ritually destroying Harry's body to hide his fear from the others. Sociopath killers relish such challenges and lose their fear in the act of it too.

This is where some logic applied further begins to sieve for fewer possibilities, because this is then reduced by the fact in HP'verse all souls, ghosts, and portrait people have mind-function and full awareness in the hereafter.

That's canon. It's interesting that some ideas will suggest Voldemort's fate has no mind function or understanding or awareness of his past, present, or is continuing to know that. Why? (Answer below.) LV has the same 1/8 soul that had the same mind-function in the Great Hall.

Canon says that mind-function does not change between life and death.

Why are some ideas suggesting otherwise?

To fit their theory?


Luna blessings...

[Artemis_Fowl_2]

Originally Posted by wandrider

He might have fallen unconscious briefly, but he comes back unscathed. Harry did absorb the very painful brunt of an AK. Voldy is standing and Harry is not within seconds.

Fear? Not much reason to have fear but for a brief moment. Yes, but, he also knows he's in control near the moment he awakes, since he is alive and Harry is lifeless on the ground.

I'd say there's some fear from his past experiences in the act of killing Harry, and that fear is mainly contained within the idea of those past uncertainties. That is simply *normal* precautionary fear and not a freak-out show.

Had LV been in KC and known it he would have been a completely different Voldemort. He would have been a freak-out show ritually destroying Harry's body to hide his fear from the others. Sociopath killers relish such challenges and lose their fear in the act of it too.

This is where some logic applied further begins to sieve for fewer possibilities, because this is then reduced by the fact in HP'verse all souls, ghosts, and portrait people have mind-function and full awareness in the hereafter.

That's canon. It's interesting that some ideas will suggest Voldemort's fate has no mind function or understanding or awareness of his past, present, or is continuing to know that. Why? He has the same 1/8 soul that had the same mind-function in the Great Hall.

Canon says that mind-function does not change between life and death.

Why are some ideas suggesting otherwise?

To fit their theory?


Luna blessings...

We do not know about Voldemort's level of consciousness when he was knocked out. We don't know what is in his mind. He very well may have experienced being the helpless creature in King's Cross who couldn't tell where he was or what was going on.

You claim he would have been freaked out but I don't think he would act that way in front of his Death Eaters. Yes, he would be freaked out, he just wouldn't show it to his followers. I think he didn't destroy Harry's body at the time because he wanted to show it to everyone to prove his superiority.

You say all souls have mind function that doesn't change from when they were alive so I would like to know where you got that idea. Personally I wish I could memorize the books so I wouldn't always have so many questions! Sometimes I miss the obvious so please understand why I am asking! But, I don't really think we know that that is always the case.

[snapegirl]

Originally Posted by wandrider

This is where some logic applied further begins to sieve for fewer possibilities, because this is then reduced by the fact in HP'verse all souls, ghosts, and portrait people have mind-function and full awareness in the hereafter.

That's canon. It's interesting that some ideas will suggest Voldemort's fate has no mind function or understanding or awareness of his past, present, or is continuing to know that. Why? He has the same 1/8 soul that had the same mind-function in the Great Hall.

Canon says that mind-function does not change between life and death.

Why are some ideas suggesting otherwise?

To fit their theory?


Luna blessings...

But, canon has never shown us anyone like Voldemort before. We have no way to judge exactly how a torn, damaged soul will react in a situation like King's Cross. We know that ghosts, portraits, etc keep the dead's personality. We also know horcruxes are very rare and few people have ever gone that far in Dark Magic. Nobody has ever made as many as Voldemort. Therefore, I think there is room to speculate about if (or what) that creature thing felt, saw or heard in King's Cross because we have nothing to compare it to.
I also think there is a clue in how Harry perceived time at King's Cross. He was having trouble telling how much time was passing while he was there. I think if Voldemort's soul was there also, it could have felt that only a second passed. So when Voldemort woke up in the forest after falling, maybe he really didn't remember much or anything. Maybe what he saw was a quick flash and didn't concern him much.
Either way, Voldemort remembering agony or nothing, I don't think he would have made his feelings clear to the Death Eaters in the forest.

[mugglebeki]

Originally Posted by FleurduJardin

I still don't quite see how "remorse" at the last moment would have redeemed Tom Riddle and would be grateful if someone explained it to me, thanks.

I'll give you my opinion on that with a quote from my own post:

"Harry sees what remains of Voldemort's soul and wants to help it, but is disgusted by it. That's why, when they confront each other in the Final Battle, Harry asks Voldemort to feel remorse, it is a last attempt to try to save him - it reminds me of the Christian belief that if you truly repent of all your sins and accept Christ as your Savior, you can be saved, even if you are in your deathbed." (post #19 of this thread)

Of course, this is my own personal point of view, but that's the way I see how remorse could have "redeemed" Voldemort, even this late in the series. Also, remember how Harry has these noble feelings, willing to sacrifice his own safety or his own feelings [toward Ginny, like at the end of HBP] for the sake of others.

[Artemis_Fowl_2]

Originally Posted by mugglebeki

"Harry sees what remains of Voldemort's soul and wants to help it, but is disgusted by it. That's why, when they confront each other in the Final Battle, Harry asks Voldemort to feel remorse, it is a last attempt to try to save him - it reminds me of the Christian belief that if you truly repent of all your sins and accept Christ as your Savior, you can be saved, even if you are in your deathbed." (post #19 of this thread)

Of course, this is my own personal point of view, but that's the way I see how remorse could have "redeemed" Voldemort, even this late in the series.

That's exactly how I see it, too. Even someone as evil as Voldemort had a chance at redemption and in this case it was through feeling remorse.

[mugglebeki]

Thanks, Artemis, and we saw even he had his chance, but chose not to take it. Maybe DD knew Voldemort would not feel remorse, that's why he knew his soul was beyond help, but Harry had to try anyway.

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by Artemis_Fowl_2

He very well may have experienced being the helpless creature in King's Cross who couldn't tell where he was or what was going on.

I would suggest this is not possible, because LV is soul-retarded not mind-retarded. That's the *baby* image that keeps resurfacing, imo, equating mind-function with the form he appears in. But child & creature are canon, not baby. Souls are marked by their entire life-cycle, and LV is marked with his lifetime fully functioning mind at AK death. He's also marked flayed, stunted, and formed child-creature. GoF creature could always think too.

Originally Posted by Artemis_Fowl_2

You claim he would have been freaked out but I don't think he would act that way in front of his Death Eaters. Yes, he would be freaked out, he just wouldn't show it to his followers. I think he didn't destroy Harry's body at the time because he wanted to show it to everyone to prove his superiority.

Agreed. And, I would add it's because he was not mind-functioning in King's Cross. He wasn't there, but Harry saw him there another way. See post 3 for my suggested possibilities.

It's no problem for Voldemort to be a freak-show AND do it right for everyone involved had he known he was in KC.

Originally Posted by Artemis_Fowl_2

You say all souls have mind function that doesn't change from when they were alive so I would like to know where you got that idea. Personally I wish I could memorize the books so I wouldn't always have so many questions! Sometimes I miss the obvious so please understand why I am asking! But, I don't really think we know that that is always the case.

That's easy. Every soul and ghost and portrait person in HP has full mind-function just as they had before dying and going to the hereafter. I did quote canon in the deleted thread, but, alas, it's gone. Harry saw and spoke with his soul family & soul friends, we know about the ghosts and portrait people too. LV was always thinking in every stage he had including Vapormort & GoF Creaturemort & 1/8th HorcruxSouls or 1/8th VoldySoul.

Mind-function and awareness is not destroyed in souls. Plus, I can't imagine JKR giving LV a free ticket out without mind-function and awareness???

That's hardly a fate worse than death personally for Lord Voldemort. That's a shocking gift to be just as good as dead without mind-function and awareness. That's a Trojan Horse Voldy would love to give to the reader.

One can debate otherwise, but I won't believe it. And, finally, I believe JKR has constructed her idea of the soul as something indestructible even LV's. His ugly-evil soul represents his lifetime & it still contains his ugly-evil mind-function of his lifetime too.

I do believe Harry saw Voldemort in the form described, but he was seeing it from his point of view and his version of Limbo. Harry was in a place for souls to decide death, so I just can't believe your arch enemy shows-up personally at the point of death too. Going to the white light of near death is to go to meet your soul guide or family or friends, right? It's Harry's private and personal 'party', so we know he does not invite the evil one to crash his party.

Plus, Voldemort has no personal business being there. He's not AK-d or rebound injured for death & couldn't be with Nagini anyway. LV has to tether Harry staying alive. His soul would tend to remain inside his body for such purposes.


Luna blessings...

[LotusFawkes]

What we know is that when Harry first wakes up in King's Cross, "He was not perfectly sure that he was there himself. A long time later, or maybe no time at all, it came to him that he must exist, must be more than disembodied thought, because he was lying, definitely lying, on some surface."

He discovers he has eyes and what he sees is like a bright mist, but it wasn't like a cloudy vapor that hid things, more like it just hadn't formed into anything yet.

He was expecting to die. He had the spirits of his mum, dad, Sirius, and Lupin with him when he went to face Voldemort and this gave him the courage to face his own death.

Voldemort, on the other hand, expects to kill Harry, to see the flash hit him and his body fall to the ground, lifeless. He does not expect anything else to happen.

But something else DOES happen and he too collapses into unconsciousness. Whether he ever awoke in the in-between world is not something we can truly know. I'm guessing, and its only a guess, that the creature must have been aware of something for when Harry first hears a noise reaching him through the unformed nothingness it is described as "the soft thumpings of something that flapped, flailed, and struggled. It was a pitiful noise, yet also slightly indecent. He had the uncomfortable feeling that he was eavesdropping on something furtive, shameful." (p. 706)

For it to have moved at all would, to me, indicate some level of awareness. At various points the text says that the creature trembled, that Harry was distracted by the whimpering and thumping of the agonized creature, that it jerked and moaned, and that it trembled and choked in the shadow beneath the chair. Given that Harry's perception of time is rather skewed, it is impossible to know how the creature perceived time, whether a momentary flash or a prolonged eternity.

Then, upon awakening in his own body again, I believe Voldemort would have shucked it off as quickly as possible secure in the knowledge that he was in fact not dead and never would be. His own arrogance would prevent anything else from penetrating his consciousness, not even a near-death experience which he would probably discount as not having happened at all since even Harry asked Dumbledore if what he experienced was real or just in his head.

IMO, this is what accounts for his lack of reaction to anything that he might have experienced in King's Cross.

[LinnendeBlack]

To me the creature is just what is left of Voldemort's soul. A disgusting, deformed, evil and twisted-looking creature. This is basically a visual representation of what has become of Voldemort's soul after what he has done to it. Hence why Dumbledore says to Harry 'there is nothing we can do for that' or something like that. (I have leant my DH copy to my auntie so I can't remember the exact quote!)

[wandrider]

Originally Posted by mugglebeki

"Harry sees what remains of Voldemort's soul and wants to help it, but is disgusted by it. That's why, when they confront each other in the Final Battle, Harry asks Voldemort to feel remorse, it is a last attempt to try to save him - it reminds me of the Christian belief that if you truly repent of all your sins and accept Christ as your Savior, you can be saved, even if you are in your deathbed." (post #19 of this thread)

Of course, this is my own personal point of view, but that's the way I see how remorse could have "redeemed" Voldemort, even this late in the series. Also, remember how Harry has these noble feelings, willing to sacrifice his own safety or his own feelings [toward Ginny, like at the end of HBP] for the sake of others.

Originally Posted by Artemis_Fowl_2

That's exactly how I see it, too. Even someone as evil as Voldemort had a chance at redemption and in this case it was through feeling remorse.

There's no doubt JKR has blended some Christian ideas into DH, since she has admitted that much. The fact she specifically used "hope", "repent", and "redemption" directly related to LV showing remorse is hitting the target in the bullseye, imo.

Then we can debate what 'that' all means.

Ok, but, also, if you read that chapter FitP at the Great Hall Harry is definitely in control. Honestly, he seemed totally assured of himself, and he *knew* LV was not going to show remorse. He even used language and ideas that didn't try to deeply convince LV to choose otherwise. He gave LV the bare hard facts, without any emotional appeal, but I just didn't see Harry as LV's spiritual redeemer. We have no canon to show Harry was spiritually inclined or was ever that compassionate for LV.

Harry fills a symbolic role in that he had to offer the remorse, but I don't see it as some personal spiritual role from Harry's POV. Do you?

If LV had shown remorse I don't know if Harry could forgive him ever? Certainly not at that time. But Harry seemed to definitely know it wasn't going to happen anyway.

I guess this discussion is for the religious thread, instead.

Luna blessings...

[purplehawk]

We have canon that Voldemort was fearful in the cemetery scene in GoF from Harry's observations. Later, in KC, Dumbledore also states that Voldemort was "more scared than you were that night." Harry also picks up on Voldemort's fear after the break-in at Gringotts, when he realizes Harry is attacking horcruxes. We see it in the narrative of their final duel. Remember the wand shaking in his hand moments before he cast his last AK?

So it's a given that Voldemort can experience fear. I think he was scared in the forest hollow that night. He didn't become gleesful until Narcissa said that Harry was dead.