"separated by a common language"

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by Pox Voldius

Same site has an entry on "heft" as well. Apparently it came from "heave", and dates to at least the 1660s as a verb, and the mid-15th century as a noun.

Ooh, I do love the Online Etymology Dictionary (that's the site you meant, right? I'm on it practically half my day ). The full etymology from from the Oxford English Dictionary seems to agree, but I think it's interesting nevertheless:

heft, v. < heft, n. A late derivative of heave v.; apparently analogical: compare weave, weft, thieve, theft, etc., also heft past participle = heaved. In sense 1 [that is, "Weight, heaviness, ponderousness. dial. and U.S."], there was perhaps immediate association with heavy.

Both entries (n. and v.) are also clearly marked as U.S., er, "innovations."

Originally Posted by Pox Voldius

Ironic, isn't it. Considering we in America are actually the ones most often clinging to more archaic terms than everyone else!

Originally Posted by Wab

Archaic terms tended to remain in use in America due to its isolation from Britain where the language was in a constant state of flux.

I'm actually wondering what the two of you mean by this... not that I'm doubting it, I just can't conjure up any concrete examples.

[Pox Voldius]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Ooh, I do love the Online Etymology Dictionary (that's the site you meant, right? I'm on it practically half my day ).

Yep. I don't currently have access to the Oxford English Dictionary unless I want to make a run to the library, so the Online Etymology Dictionary is my go-to place for etymology questions.

Originally Posted by canismajoris

I'm actually wondering what the two of you mean by this... not that I'm doubting it, I just can't conjure up any concrete examples.

Well, I can't speak for Wab, but I was thinking of all the terms that strike modern UKers as being Americanisms, but which were actually in use in British English, say, 300, 400, 500 years ago, and have simply fallen out of common use in British English. Examples from the recent discussion in this thread: "gotten", "period", and "heft" (is the noun in current use in BrE at all? Melaszka's example was the verb...). Other examples: "Fall" (as opposed to "Autumn"), "oftentimes", and "transportation" (as opposed to "transport").

Lynneguist's response to the BBC list of hated Americanisms on her "Separated by a Common Language" blog --> http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.bl...canismism.html
Mark Liberman's response on Language Log --> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3271

[Wab]

Originally Posted by Pox Voldius

"Fall" (as opposed to "Autumn"), "[url="http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/blogexcerpts/2920/"]

Which is the example I was going to quote.

The Mayflower departed England in 1620 which was just on the cusp of one of the great growth periods of English partly due to the influence of Shakespeare.

Although his plays had been performed before 1620 the Pilgrims were hardly the type of people who would have gone to the theatre.

Because of this they were insulated from "new" words and coinages and preserved a number of archaic terms which fell into disuse in Britain.

[Mundungus Fletc]

I suspect it is also because of the influence of the King James Bible. The variety of Protestantism that was established in the New England colonies was very much a religion of the book and hence of the word. Anglicanism was much less bible based.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I must admit, I also hate the use of the word "season" for a TV series, especially if it's used about a UK programme. Then again, perhaps I've been reading the Telegraph too much.

That does bring up a question. A series for me and most Americans is the entire span of the show. What would you call that in British English?

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by leah49

That does bring up a question. A series for me and most Americans is the entire span of the show. What would you call that in British English?

I'm not sure we have a word for that, actually. Depends on the context. We might say "programme" or "show" or "series" pretty much interchangeably in the sentence "Taggart is a Scottish detective series which ran from 1983-2011". We might also use the word "run" to talk about the show's entire span in some contexts (e.g. "For most of its 28-year run it was controversial because of its sinister plotlines and high body count").

Confusingly, we also use "series" like you guys use "season" for the annual block of programmes shown (e.g. "The new series of Sherlock is due to be shown on British TV in the autumn of 2011. Expectations are high, as the first series was such a hit with viewers.") However, more and more people are starting to talk about "seasons", in part because a lot of American programmes, like Desperate Housewives, Mad Men, House etc, are very popular here and we hear the word "season" a lot in publicity for those shows.

British programmes tend to have much shorter series/seasons than US ones, though, which may also explain the different choice of word - it feels a bit silly saying "season" about a block of 3-8 episodes!

[leah49]

Thank you.

[Melaszka]

Some other miscellaneous observations, many of them drawn from Brit-picking other people's fan-fiction:

gift/present In the UK, although the word "gift" is used a lot in commercial/official contexts (e.g. When the Queen goes on overseas visits, she exchanges gifts with other Heads of State. You sometimes get a "free gift" [utter tautology] with magazines. Shops often sell "gift vouchers" etc), I think very few people would use it in everyday conversations - they'd almost certainly say "present" or (more informally) "prezzie". I'd be very surprised to hear a British person say "It's my sister's birthday tomorrow - I need to get her a gift."

toilet/bathroom Contrary to popular belief, we do actually use the word "bathroom" in the UK when we're talking about a room with a shower or bath in it (e.g. "I need to have a bathroom installed downstairs, so my elderly parents can have a shower without having to go upstairs", e.g. 2 "I'm just going to go to the bathroom to clean my teeth/have a shower"). We only use "toilet" if (a) we are talking about a room that only has a toilet and a washbasin in it, no bath or shower e.g. public toilets, the toilets in a restaurant or department store (b) we are talking about going to a bathroom for the purpose of using the toilet, no other reason (e.g. if you went into the bathroom of your house to have a wee, you'd say "I'm just going to the toilet", but you wouldn't call it a "toilet" if you were going in there to have a shower, do the cleaning, redecorate the walls etc).

pants (adjective) = a British slang term for "not very good" e.g. "Don't go and see that film - it's pants." e.g. 2 "I'm really pants at sport."

We don't tend to use the word bartender much in BrEng. Someone who works in a bar might be referred to as "bar staff", a "barman" or "barmaid", depending on gender (although the latter strikes me as being a little old-fashioned) or "the guy/woman behind the bar"!

[ajna]

I'm reading a book, based in England, where they say "lavatory paper". Here, we would call it toilet paper.

[Wab]

Back on the series/season issue a quick check of my DVDs shows the split is pretty consistent across genres and time.

US shows (The West Wing, Buffy, The Wire, Get Smart) all use season.

British shows (The Young Ones, Blackadder, Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister) all use series.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by ajna

I'm reading a book, based in England, where they say "lavatory paper". Here, we would call it toilet paper.

I've lived in England most of my life and I've never heard anyone say "lavatory paper" - you'd have to be either very old or very posh to say that. Mostly, we call it "toilet paper", too, or "loo roll", "bog roll" etc if we're being informal. "Lavatory"/"toilet" is one of those very class-dependent dichotomies. "Lavatory" is mostly used only by upper-middle class and above (who would shudder at "toilet", even though it is what the vast majority of the population, including lower-middle and middle-middle class, would say. In fact, upper and upper-middle class people would prefer "loo" to "toilet", although to a lot of middle-middle class people, "loo" is vulgar. It's a bit like the "pudding"/"dessert" dichotomy).

Originally Posted by Wab

Back on the series/season issue a quick check of my DVDs shows the split is pretty consistent across genres and time.

US shows (The West Wing, Buffy, The Wire, Get Smart) all use season.

British shows (The Young Ones, Blackadder, Yes Minister, Yes Prime Minister) all use series.

That's interesting. I think it's only a matter of time before "season" seeps in over here, though - I'm starting to see it in TV reviews occasionally.

In fairness, there's also an age difference between the two sets of DVDs you've mentioned there. The UK shows all date back to the 80s, while the US shows are more recent.

[Wab]

Get Smart dates back to the sixties.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Wab

Get Smart dates back to the sixties.

Ah. That was the only one I hadn't heard of. QED, then.

[ginger1]

Aha! (sorry not strictly on topic here) - QED - quod erat demonstrandum - was always given the made-up pig latin translation of "quite easily demonstrated" by our maths master when trying to drum into our thick heads all the equations and formulas ... happy days

[ajna]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I've lived in England most of my life and I've never heard anyone say "lavatory paper" - you'd have to be either very old or very posh to say that. Mostly, we call it "toilet paper", too, or "loo roll", "bog roll" etc if we're being informal. "Lavatory"/"toilet" is one of those very class-dependent dichotomies. "Lavatory" is mostly used only by upper-middle class and above (who would shudder at "toilet", even though it is what the vast majority of the population, including lower-middle and middle-middle class, would say. In fact, upper and upper-middle class people would prefer "loo" to "toilet", although to a lot of middle-middle class people, "loo" is vulgar. It's a bit like the "pudding"/"dessert" dichotomy).

Thanks for clearing that up. I though it was a bit odd, but I don't know. The book was the Domesday Book and was written in the nineties, but was supposed to be set in the future.

[freelantzer]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

It's a bit like the "pudding"/"dessert" dichotomy.

What is the difference between pudding and dessert? I'm always sort of confused by what exactly pudding means in the UK because it seems to have a different meaning from pudding in the US.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by freelantzer

What is the difference between pudding and dessert? I'm always sort of confused by what exactly pudding means in the UK because it seems to have a different meaning from pudding in the US.

Pudding in the UK can mean:

1. The sweet course you have at the end of a meal. (e.g. "I had curried lentils for dinner and a banana split for pudding") Often used interchangeably with "dessert", although, as with lavatory/toilet, which one you choose can be a complex class signifier.

2. More specifically, a heavy, usually flour-based dessert, often containing suet, usually boiled (e.g. Christmas pudding) or baked (e.g. bread and butter pudding).

3. It is also used in the names of various savoury dishes, e.g. Yorkshire pudding (a kind of batter cake traditionally served with roast beef - a bit like a thick pancake baked in the oven), black pudding (a type of blood sausage)

I think I've heard you use it in the US for a kind of soft and light milk-based dessert, a bit like what we'd call instant whip - is that right? If so, that's a bit odd, because that's almost the exact opposite of a British pudding (sense 2), which is always hot and stodgy. Those kind of light, milk-based puddings are usually marketed as "desserts" in the UK, not "puddings".

[Pox Voldius]

Unless you specify "bread pudding", "rice pudding", "black pudding", "Yorkshire pudding", etc... [unmodified] "pudding" in the US is usually assumed to refer to this:



...in various flavors (chocolate, butterscotch, vanilla, banana, tapioca, etc) and usually served either cold or room-temperature.

[ajna]

I saw somewhere that "Pudding" in Britain mostly pertains to hot or cooked desserts, but didn't catch what cold ones were. However, you called a banana split, obviously quite cold, "Pudding" also.

Yes, in the US it's pretty much a milk based custard that is called "Pudding", although there is Indian Pudding which has pretty much gone out of style, and rice pudding and tapioca pudding. All the same genre of cooked custards.

[freelantzer]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I think I've heard you use it in the US for a kind of soft and light milk-based dessert, a bit like what we'd call instant whip - is that right? If so, that's a bit odd, because that's almost the exact opposite of a British pudding (sense 2), which is always hot and stodgy. Those kind of light, milk-based puddings are usually marketed as "desserts" in the UK, not "puddings".

Yes, that milk-based, cold, creamy dessert is called pudding in the US. Pox posted a picture of the box. It can be chocolate or vanilla or banana flavored or other flavors, but that's pretty much the only definition for pudding that's commonly used here (aside from tapioca, but they're very similar). That's why I'm always so confused about UK pudding! They're completely opposite!