Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

[Rush]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I disagree. I don't think Albus expected the reaction he got. The facts were on his side in this case, and he did present them. He himself was an eyewitness to a Veritaserum interrogation of Crouch Jr. There was the corroboration of Harry's story and Cedric's otherwise unexplained death. There was the evidence of Snape's Dark Mark. With that kind of evidence...I don't think Albus had any reason to think he needed to sweat his presentation of the facts.

I just don't think that going over the drastic parts of the plan of action right away was wise. Had Dumbledore waited until he had Fudge completely on his side to voice his opinion of the Dementor's and Giants, he could've avoided the whole Order vs Ministry fiasco.

[ignisia]

From the Snape thread:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Dumbledore knew that too.

And apparently, like the rest of the wizarding world, never once thought to question the highly irregular and corrupt manner of Sirius's imprisonment and lack of a trial.

Possibly because it would not only have been incredibly foolish (because the evidence against Sirius appeared incontrovertible), but also politically nonviable. Crouch, who demanded Sirius be placed in Azkaban without a trial, was in the running for Minister of Magic and had the mass support of the Wizarding public. Even if Dumbledore had had reservations about Sirius' treatment, there wasn't much he could do or say.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ignisia

From the Snape thread:



Possibly because it would not only have been incredibly foolish (because the evidence against Sirius appeared incontrovertible), but also politically nonviable. Crouch, who demanded Sirius be placed in Azkaban without a trial, was in the running for Minister of Magic and had the mass support of the Wizarding public. Even if Dumbledore had had reservations about Sirius' treatment, there wasn't much he could do or say.

I would respectfully disagree, only because Dumbledore was in the very same position when it came to the Ministry and wizard world's disbelief in Voldemort's return, but he didn't allow their sentiments or political stance to stop his private efforts. I do agree with you that he likely felt the evidence was conclusive, but that of course is no reason to deny a man a fair trial. With his standing in the political realm, it was something Dumbledore (and others in his position) should have demanded, imo.

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I would respectfully disagree, only because Dumbledore was in the very same position when it came to the Ministry and wizard world's disbelief in Voldemort's return, but he didn't allow their sentiments or political stance to stop his private efforts. I do agree with you that he likely felt the evidence was conclusive, but that of course is no reason to deny a man a fair trial. With his standing in the political realm, it was something Dumbledore (and others in his position) should have demanded, imo.

I agree. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Sirius spent 11 years in prison. 11 years! If Dumbledore wanted to give Sirius a fair trial, nothing precluded him from going to Azkaban and extracting Sirius's memories with Legilimency or giving him Veritaserum after things had calmed down. Getting to the bottom of things was so unbelievably simple. Yet Dumbledore spent these 11 years doing nothing.
However, in Dumbledore's defense, I think he he had all the reasons to see Sirius as someone capable of betraying his best friend, given that Sirius didn't exactly have a clean record (his "prank" on Snape which could have had disastrous consequences for one of Sirius's best friends, not to mention Snape himself).

[hplova15165]

Originally Posted by Raelis

I agree. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Sirius spent 11 years in prison. 11 years! If Dumbledore wanted to give Sirius a fair trial, nothing precluded him from going to Azkaban and extracting Sirius's memories with Legilimency or giving him Veritaserum after things had calmed down. Getting to the bottom of things was so unbelievably simple. Yet Dumbledore spent these 11 years doing nothing.
However, in Dumbledore's defense, I think he he had all the reasons to see Sirius as someone capable of betraying his best friend, given that Sirius didn't exactly have a clean record (his "prank" on Snape which could have had disastrous consequences for one of Sirius's best friends, not to mention Snape himself).

I agree with your defense - Dumbledore didn't stand around doing nothing because he just didn't feel like it. He's a capable man and he would have done something to get Sirius out if he felt it necessary. But he didn't, and like you said, he had every reason not to trust Sirius. Dumbledore didn't know the full story of what had happened that night, but they did know that he ran in, yelled at a little man, and then thirteen people were blown up. Dumbledore probably believed Sirius, but knew he couldn't do anything about it. Everyone thought he was a murderer.

This was also during the time right after Voldemort's downfall, so everyone openly expressed their hate towards him. This meant that if they all thought Sirius was his right hand man, he would be openly shunned by all of society. What was Dumbledore to do, say he believed Sirius and thought he deserved a fair trial? Some people would begin to doubt whether or not Dumbledore was in his right state of mind. It is very similar to the time when Fudge wouldn't believe Voldemort was back.

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by hplova15165

Dumbledore probably believed Sirius, but knew he couldn't do anything about it. Everyone thought he was a murderer.

I think Dumbledore could have done something to help Sirius get a fair trial (he was powerful and influential enough), but he chose not to. The only explanation for his inaction that I find more or less plausible is that he believed that Sirius was capable to backstab his friend because of the incident in Sirius's fifth year.

This was also during the time right after Voldemort's downfall, so everyone openly expressed their hate towards him. This meant that if they all thought Sirius was his right hand man, he would be openly shunned by all of society. What was Dumbledore to do, say he believed Sirius and thought he deserved a fair trial? Some people would begin to doubt whether or not Dumbledore was in his right state of mind. It is very similar to the time when Fudge wouldn't believe Voldemort was back

Well, like I said, Sirius spent 11 years in prison. 11 years is a pretty long period for things to calm down. Even if Dumbledore saw it unprudent to interfere on Sirius's behalf right after Sirius had been captured, he still could have done it a couple of years later, if he really wanted the truth. So this means that either Dumbledore saw Sirius as betrayer and murderer material, or that he for some reason didn't want Sirius out of prison.

[hplova15165]

Originally Posted by Raelis

I think Dumbledore could have done something to help Sirius get a fair trial (he was powerful and influential enough), but he chose not to. The only explanation for his inaction that I find more or less plausible is that he believed that Sirius was capable to backstab his friend because of the incident in Sirius's fifth year.

Well, like I said, Sirius spent 11 years in prison. 11 years is a pretty long period for things to calm down. Even if Dumbledore saw it unprudent to interfere on Sirius's behalf right after Sirius had been captured, he still could have done it a couple of years later, if he really wanted the truth. So this means that either Dumbledore saw Sirius as betrayer and murderer material, or that he for some reason didn't want Sirius out of prison.

He was powerful and influential, but IMO, the odds of a huge group of people rallying on his side is not likely; I think that there were too many people against Sirius for anyone to actually believe him. And Sirius didn't betray his friend - he did something spur of the moment, on the whim and out of anger, trying to get Snape hurt and in trouble. He didn't think about the consequences, he just did it. But he did it to Snape, not his friends, so it justified in his mind at that moment as something okay; basically, he didn't think of the consequences, he just did it. Sirius was very loyal to his friends, and I'm sure if he rethought his plan several times through and realized that it had a horrendous ending for his best friend, he probably would avoid going through with it as much as possible. But he didn't; it was whim.

After 11 years, the trial was already over and done through. IMO, there was nothing they could do to get him out by the time it was even a year or two later. Remember the reaction when everyone found out he escaped? Imagine if he had been let out - there would have been rumors, evil glares, and a lot of anger towards him. Dumbledore probably realized he couldn't get Sirius out of this predicament, even if he wanted to, and even if he believed him.

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by hplova15165

He was powerful and influential, but IMO, the odds of a huge group of people rallying on his side is not likely; I think that there were too many people against Sirius for anyone to actually believe him.

The man was an uncrowned king of the Wizarding Britain, respected and loved by almost everybody. If he wanted to insist on a trial for Sirius later, he'd have probably made at least some people listen. After that going to Azkaban and obtaining Sirius's memories would have been a piece of cake.

And Sirius didn't betray his friend - he did something spur of the moment, on the whim and out of anger, trying to get Snape hurt and in trouble.

He did betray his friend Remus in a way, even if it didn't occur to him at that time. If Snape had been killed, the consequences for Remus would have been disastrous. Dumbledore chose to hush up the incident, probably resorting to his usual policy of "giving another chance". But when he heard that Sirius was the main suspect in the Potters' murders, the first thing that came to his mind was probably the incident in 6th year. This was the way Sirius's prank worked against him, IMO.

He didn't think about the consequences, he just did it. But he did it to Snape, not his friends, so it justified in his mind at that moment as something okay; basically, he didn't think of the consequences, he just did it.

Nevertheless, the fact that he was capable to do such a thing did not reflect well on Sirius and his future fate.

Dumbledore probably realized he couldn't get Sirius out of this predicament, even if he wanted to, and even if he believed him

He could if he really put his mind to it, he just didn't want to.

[TreacleTartlet]

I think Dumbledore was convinced that Black was guilty. He may not have agreed with Crouch imprisoning Sirius without a trial, but as the eye-witness evidence was so overwheaming Sirius would probably have been convicted even with a trial.

As for using Veritaserum, JKR has dismissed it's usefullness in trials, as it can be overcome.

http://www.jkrowling.com/en/

Section: F.A.Q.

Veritaserum plays a big part in finding out the truth from Mad-Eye Moody in book four. Why then is it not used for example in the trials mentioned in the same book? It would be much easier in solving problems like whether Sirius Black was guilty or not?

Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. Barty Crouch had been attacked before the potion was given to him and was still very groggy, otherwise he could have employed a range of measures against the Potion - he might have sealed his own throat and faked a declaration of innocence, transformed the Potion into something else before it touched his lips, or employed Occlumency against its effects. In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial.

Sirius might have volunteered to take the potion had he been given the chance, but he was never offered it. Mr. Crouch senior, power mad and increasingly unjust in the way he was treating suspects, threw him into Azkaban on the (admittedly rather convincing) testimony of many eyewitnesses. The sad fact is that even if Sirius had told the truth under the influence of the Potion, Mr. Crouch could still have insisted that he was using trickery to render himself immune to it.

We also know that memories can be altered, as seen when Slughorn attempted to alter his memory of his conversation with Tom Riddle. Although his attempt was not done well, I imagine some wizards could alter their memories more successfully. So I see that neither Veritaserum or use of the Pensieve as being fail safe methods for determining the truth. For these reasons, they would probably not be accepted for use in a wizard court case , in my opinion.

[hplova15165]

Originally Posted by Raelis

The man was an uncrowned king of the Wizarding Britain, respected and loved by almost everybody. If he wanted to insist on a trial for Sirius later, he'd have probably made at least some people listen. After that going to Azkaban and obtaining Sirius's memories would have been a piece of cake.

I still don't feel as though Dumbledore could have done something. Anything he said or did would have been questionable. He did have power and influence, but not enough of it to make a difference.

He did betray his friend Remus in a way, even if it didn't occur to him at that time. If Snape had been killed, the consequences for Remus would have been disastrous. Dumbledore chose to hush up the incident, probably resorting to his usual policy of "giving another chance". But when he heard that Sirius was the main suspect in the Potters' murders, the first thing that came to his mind was probably the incident in 6th year. This was the way Sirius's prank worked against him, IMO.

Sirius's actions were rash and immature, the thought process of a child. He has anger issues when it comes to Snape, as seen later in the series when he almost gets into a fight with him at Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore always sees the good in people - I believe he knew Sirius was good, but he just couldn't do anything about it. Sirius had a good heart, and Dumbledore probably knew it. He was very loyal to his friends, especially James, and he wouldn't rat them out to Voldemort. Doing that would be evil - and again, Sirius isn't evil, and his prank wasn't either; it was very immature and very rash and he wasn't thinking straight out of anger, but it wasn't evil, because Sirius isn't evil.

Nevertheless, the fact that he was capable to do such a thing did not reflect well on Sirius and his future fate.

True. But, like said above, Sirius is good. And Dumbledore can judge the good from the bad.

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

We also know that memories can be altered, as seen when Slughorn attempted to alter his memory of his conversation with Tom Riddle. Although his attempt was not done well, I imagine some wizards could alter their memories more successfully.

According to Dumbledore, Slughorn was an accomplished Occlumens and still he couldn't hide his memories well. It's hard to believe that 22-year old Sirius was more powerful and experienced than Slughorn. There isn't any indication in the books that Sirus could perfrom Occlumency and alter his memories. Any Legilimens could have checked this easily. In fact, I am sure that Sirius was not an Occlumens because he never volunteered to train Harry. I'm still convinced that if Dumbledore had wanted to put his mind to it, Sirius's inniocence could have been proven easily.

Not to mention that JKR's reasoning on why wizards can't use Veritaserum at trials didn't convince me, IMO. But this is going off-topic, so I'll shut up.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by Raelis

According to Dumbledore, Slughorn was an accomplished Occlumens and still he couldn't hide his memories well. It's hard to believe that 22-year old Sirius was more powerful and experienced than Slughorn. There isn't any indication in the books that Sirus could perfrom Occlumency and alter his memories. Any Legilimens could have checked this easily. In fact, I am sure that Sirius was not an Occlumens because he never volunteered to train Harry. I'm still convinced that if Dumbledore had wanted to put his mind to it, Sirius's inniocence could have been proven easily.

I agree with you that it is very unlikely. But my point was that Crouch or other members of the Wizengamot could have claimed that it was not a reliable source of information and could accuse him of trickery, as JKR said regarding the use of Veritiserum

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

I agree with you that it is very unlikely. But my point was that Crouch or other members of the Wizengamot could have claimed that it was not a reliable source of information and could accuse him of trickery, as JKR said regarding the use of Veritiserum

I'll answer in Sirius's thread.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Raelis

The man was an uncrowned king of the Wizarding Britain, respected and loved by almost everybody. If he wanted to insist on a trial for Sirius later, he'd have probably made at least some people listen. After that going to Azkaban and obtaining Sirius's memories would have been a piece of cake.

It seems like that would be true.

He did betray his friend Remus in a way, even if it didn't occur to him at that time. If Snape had been killed, the consequences for Remus would have been disastrous. Dumbledore chose to hush up the incident, probably resorting to his usual policy of "giving another chance". But when he heard that Sirius was the main suspect in the Potters' murders, the first thing that came to his mind was probably the incident in 6th year. This was the way Sirius's prank worked against him, IMO.

Nevertheless, the fact that he was capable to do such a thing did not reflect well on Sirius and his future fate.

Nah, I don't think Dumbledore thinks like that. He understood that kids do unthoughful things without thinking things through. He also placed most of the blame on Snape for actually walking into the tunnel in that incident, I'd imagine, and we don't even know if Snape got in trouble for that. But more importantly, we saw how he reacted first hand when a youngster did something unthinkingly stupid - when Harry used sectumsempra on Draco, nearly killing him, Dumbledore said not a word. Boy who lived or not, Harry nearly made Draco the boy who died, in a much more flagrant manner than Sirius even dreamed of - Dumbledore should have said something, but he didn't, figuring I guess that Harry knew he was wrong to use a spell he'd never heard of marked "for enemies". He prolly saw Sirius the same way. And too James (w/ Lupin) and Hermione were taking the opposite view, so perhaps Dumbledore felt that they'd chastise their friends in his stead.

[The_Green_Woods]

From the Severus Snape thread

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Unlike Snape - Harry's ghostly parents apparently knew "everything" - absolutely everything, imo. Harry did not tell them what he was doing or where he was going - he did not tell them the news he had gotten from Dumbledore - that he was a horcrux and had to die. He did not tell them that he was planning to walk into the forest and allow Voldemort to kill him. They knew all of this. How?

One way they would have known everything would be when Dumbleore died and met them in the afterlife (there seems to be some place where people can meet with others apparently, seeing that the Marauders and Lily came down looking like they did when they were alive) and told them everything. Dumbledore would have told the Potters, Sirius and Remus that Harry needed to be killed by Voldemort for the horcrux to be destroyed and I think they would have understood what had to be done and why and so encouraged Harry, instead of sharing his "betrayal" feelings about Dumbledore.

[arithmancer]

The "betrayal" Harry felt, I believe, was never that Albus "wanted" Harry to die, or that Albus "planned" for Harry to die, as I saw it. It was that Albus had told Harry he was teaching Harry what he needed to learn in order to live, while knowing that actually Harry's death was inevitable.

DH, "The Forest Again" Finally, the truth. Lying with his face pressed into the dusty carpet of the office where he had once thought he was learning the secrets of victory, Harry understood at last that he was not supposed to survive.

Of course, this was not, still, the truth, and this "betrayal" did not actually take place, Albus WAS trying to teach Harry the secrets of survival, just as he told him at the start of their lessons in HBP.

The necessity of Harry's death or near-death was not an aritfact of any plan Albus created, and it was not a thing Albus had the power to change. The person most to blame for it was Voldemort. Albus was just the one person around Harry with a sufficient understanding of all of the arcane magic of Love and soul-splitting to piece together what had happened that long ago night at Godric's Hollow.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

The "betrayal" Harry felt, I believe, was never that Albus "wanted" Harry to die, or that Albus "planned" for Harry to die, as I saw it. It was that Albus had told Harry he was teaching Harry what he needed to learn in order to live, while knowing that actually Harry's death was inevitable.

Oh beautifully said zg!

The necessity of Harry's death or near-death was not an aritfact of any plan Albus created, and it was not a thing Albus had the power to change.

I agree. We don't know if there were any back up plans, if something happened to Snape, but then I suppose Dumbledore did not want to tell Harry about his own death; that would depress Harry and he could have had problems with the searching for the other horcruxes.

The person most to blame for it was Voldemort. Albus was just the one person around Harry with a sufficient understanding of all of the arcane magic of Love and soul-splitting to piece together what had happened that long ago night at Godric's Hollow.

Yes Voldemort was to blame, but I can't help but feel at times that Dumbledore allowed Harry to tell a few trusted members about the horcruxes with a magical oath or UV kinds and also told them about Snape's true loyalty. In the end, Albus Dumbledore made Harry and Snape stand alone each burdened heavily with specific information, Snape more than Harry, for Harry had his 2 friends; Snape had no one.

[arithmancer]

I would think less of Harry and Albus if they went around asking Unbreakable Vows of Order members whose help they wanted, myself. Albus did ask a lot of Snape, I agree, but I see this as reasonable. Snape was in a unique position to do those things, and Snape was tough enough to do them, as well. (I have to say, I upon seeing the end of "The Dark Knight" I was like, "It's Snape!!": "because he can take it ... because he is not our hero...") And most of the time, I think Albus knew and appreciated when he had in Snape.

Regarding Harry - Albus only brought Harry in on the Horcrux plan after he himself realized he was going to die within the year. I'm sure he had always planned to handle that part himself, until it was no longer an option. It is at this point that I suppose he could have brought someone else into the picture. I find Harry's own reluctance to do so, however, tends to make me think that Albus made a reasonable choice in this that I would not second-guess. I also wonder whether ALbus guessed that Harry, like Snape, was uniquely equipped for his task. He was aided in it by his ability to see into the mind of Voldemort, an ability only he had, because of the soul bit.

And of course, while Harry did not know it, he, Ron, and Hermione were not completely alone and without help. Snape, guided by Albus's portrait, was able to assist them by proividing them a means to destroy Horcruxes.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I would think less of Harry and Albus if they went around asking Unbreakable Vows of Order members whose help they wanted, myself. Albus did ask a lot of Snape, I agree, but I see this as reasonable. Snape was in a unique position to do those things, and Snape was tough enough to do them, as well. (I have to say, I upon seeing the end of "The Dark Knight" I was like, "It's Snape!!": "because he can take it ... because he is not our hero...") And most of the time, I think Albus knew and appreciated when he had in Snape.

I suggested both only because I could not think of a way to secure the silence of any Order member if caught by Voldemort. Like the Fidelus Charm, where no one except the SK could reveal the place; I could not think of anything else other than a magical oath or UV, but then again, if Ron and Hermione could know about the horcruxes, then I presume other Order members could too, but Dumbledore did not want anyone else working with Harry for the horcruxes, so I concluded that either Dumbledore was wary about having too many people searching for them (here too he could have limited the number of people in the know) or he was scared the Order memebrs could be caught and the secret discovered. It was for that I suggested both options.

Harry was lucky he managed to finish his work and Snape more than lucky he did not die before he told Harry everything. If other people knew, I felt it would have eased both Harry's and Snape's burden.

While I agree only Snape could do what he did; his loyalty being known to a few Order memebrs would have helped Snape IMO.

I find Harry's own reluctance to do so, however, tends to make me think that Albus made a reasonable choice in this that I would not second-guess. I also wonder whether ALbus guessed that Harry, like Snape, was uniquely equipped for his task. He was aided in it by his ability to see into the mind of Voldemort, an ability only he had, because of the soul bit.

Harry did not tell anyone else only because Dumbledore had not given him permission to do so. Dumbledore tells Harry to reveal both the Prophecy and information about the horcruxes only to Ron and Hermione. Since he never changed that order, Harry never told anyone else IMO. And once Dumbledore died, Harry had no way to seek him out in his portrait form, so he could not tell anyone at all.

And of course, while Harry did not know it, he, Ron, and Hermione were not completely alone and without help. Snape, guided by Albus's portrait, was able to assist them by proividing them a means to destroy Horcruxes.

I agree, but there seems to be no valid reason why if Ron and Hermione can be trusted with knowledge of the horcruxes, why cannot Moody, Remus, Tonks, Kingsley and Arthur? Not to mention Snape.

[wickedwickedboy]

Well JKR had this to say about Dumbledore:

"He's a complex character. I don't see him as God. I did want that the reader would question Dumbledore's part in the whole story. We all believed that he was a kind-hearted father figure. And to a certain extent he is. But at the same time he is someone who treats people as puppets; who caries a dark secret from his past and who never told Harry the full truth. I hope that the reader will love him again in the end. But that they love him like he is, including his faults. Is Dumbledore divine? No. He has certain divine qualities though. He is merciful, and in the end he is just."

So clearly she recognized that his behavior was wrong - even though she had him do it and gave him some rationales for his act. I feel it was wrong also. However, I do feel that his asking for forgiveness entailed more than merely the Hallows - but extended to all of his non-disclosure. I don't feel that JKR could expect for people to forgive Dumbledore (as she indicated she desired) if she had made him arrogant and unrepentant about it. Although anything is possible...