Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

[The_Green_Woods]

I feel Dumbledore had reasons for most of his actions if not all. His actions always have a purpose, maybe we ill agree with those or we won't, but he generally has a reason for every action IMO. There are a few which are not clearly explained; one such action is isolating Harry and Snape; why did Dumbledore feel Harry could tell Ron and Hermione but not the other Order memebrs and why Snape could not reveal his position to the same Order members, if not at once, then a little later. There is no explanation and there is no apology, which is bewildering IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Well I think his apology was supposed to include that idea because it was basically for his lack of trust in Harry. That is both the reason why he didn't tell him that he was a horcrux or about the Hallows. However, in truth, no one else was involved in that directly except Harry, so I don't feel that Dumbledore was duty bound to tell anyone else about it all except Harry.

However, there were those, like Snape, who were also doing things for Dumbledore without full knowledge (different knowledge) that pertained to them and in some cases, their very lives were at grave risk due to the way Dumbledore had set things up. I feel he should have disclosed those things to those persons as well. For example, I don't think Dumbledore had any duty to tell Snape about the horcruxes - but I think he should have told him about the Elder Wand.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

However, there were those, like Snape, who were also doing things for Dumbledore without full knowledge (different knowledge) that pertained to them and in some cases, their very lives were at grave risk due to the way Dumbledore had set things up. I feel he should have disclosed those things to those persons as well. For example, I don't think Dumbledore had any duty to tell Snape about the horcruxes - but I think he should have told him about the Elder Wand.

In wanting Snape to have the Elder Wand, I feel Dumbledore was in effect signing Snape's death warrant. Ever since Harry's confrontation with Voldemort in the graveyard (GoF), Dumbledore was sure that Voldemort would seek out the Elder Wand (DH, King's Cross). Dumbledore's plan was for Snape to have the wand, yet he must have known that it would only be a matter of time before Voldemort put two and two together and realised that Snape owned the wand. As it happened Voldemort came to exactly that conclusion but erroneously, however the outcome was the same, that being Snape's death. To me this was a huge gamble on Dumbledore's part as the other part of his plan was for Snape to survive to the end in order to pass on the information to Harry, yet he puts him in a position which could have resulted in his death much earlier. Unless I have really missed something out here?

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

In wanting Snape to have the Elder Wand, I feel Dumbledore was in effect signing Snape's death warrant. Ever since Harry's confrontation with Voldemort in the graveyard (GoF), Dumbledore was sure that Voldemort would seek out the Elder Wand (DH, King's Cross). Dumbledore's plan was for Snape to have the wand, yet he must have known that it would only be a matter of time before Voldemort put two and two together and realised that Snape owned the wand. As it happened Voldemort came to exactly that conclusion but erroneously, however the outcome was the same, that being Snape's death. To me this was a huge gamble on Dumbledore's part as the other part of his plan was for Snape to survive to the end in order to pass on the information to Harry, yet he puts him in a position which could have resulted in his death much earlier. Unless I have really missed something out here?

What does Albus mean by "have" the wand? Therein lies the answer.

Did he expect Snape to be the master of the wand, when he made his plans? That would give Snape interesting options... Did he expect that it would be as Harry explained, that his willing death at Snape's hands would render the wand useless? This might make the wand appear completely broken and lifeless, so that Voldemort would give up on the quest. Did he mean that Snape would physically have possession of the wand? In that case, Voldemort might never have found it, and thus had no need to murder Snape for its mastery. (Or, at the poitn that he found it, Snape's cover would be blown so high Snape'd be a dead man anyway).

[wickedwickedboy]

Dumbledore said in Kings Cross that he didn't feel that even he was worthy to use the Master wand (or the cloak or stone) and that his only value was in holding it as its protector. Now why would he feel Snape would be a candidate for Master of the Elder Wand? Not to rag on Snape, but he was undergoing a lot of emotional problems similar to Dumbledore (and the elder wizard knew it). Snape was not selfless to the point Harry was, which is the basis for Dumbledore feeling Harry was a proper owner. Snape also could "lose it" at any time based on the circumstances and the particular circumstances he would be in as a spy for Voldemort (without the protection of dual spying) would be the very type of circumstances wherein a man might just lose it.

So I don't feel he intended that Snape should be master of the wand and I don't think that Dumbledore believed his having Snape willingly kill him would cause a transfer of the wand. To me that would mean he simply wished for Snape to end up with the wand physically - but either way, Snape would be the one with the wand. Voldemort was not going to give up on seeking it, he was obsessed according to Dumbledore (to the same degree he was obsessed with killing Harry). So eventually the trail would lead to Dumbledore as it did and Voldemort was aware who had killed him - Snape. So the trail would end at Snape's door. The fact that he would have the wand or know of its whereabouts would be fatal, imo. Between Legilimens, veritaserum, the imperius curse and any other means Voldemort might come up with, he would test Snape on the issue and very likely succeed in discovering him having it or knowing where it was. And as such he would still kill Snape to ensure that he was the master of it once he got a hold of it. If Snape told him in the end that he'd not really killed Dumbledore and wasn't the master because it was planned, Voldemort would kill him for being a traitor, so there was no escape for Snape as I see it - whether the wand was useless at the time or not.

[Moriath]

*coughSnape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysiscough*

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

However, there were those, like Snape, who were also doing things for Dumbledore without full knowledge (different knowledge) that pertained to them and in some cases, their very lives were at grave risk due to the way Dumbledore had set things up. I feel he should have disclosed those things to those persons as well. For example, I don't think Dumbledore had any duty to tell Snape about the horcruxes - but I think he should have told him about the Elder Wand.

Dumby should have told more people of the plan and those he told he should have involved better. He knew he was going to die and had enough time to prepare everything. There are many reasons why his plan had flaws and just because it worked out doesn't mean that it was a bad planning.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by Moriath

*coughSnape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysiscough*

Sorry! I have moved my last post over to the Snape and Dumbledore thread.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Dumbledore said in Kings Cross that he didn't feel that even he was worthy to use the Master wand (or the cloak or stone) and that his only value was in holding it as its protector. Now why would he feel Snape would be a candidate for Master of the Elder Wand?

I feel that Albus knew that Snape was qualified to protect others from the Elder Wand in just exactly the same manner that Albus was. Namely, he was a person who would not wish to take life with it, and did not require fame and glory for his magical achievements. Snape revealed this much of himself to Albus in the conversations between them that we are shown. Albus would have known of his unwillingness to kill, and he would have known how little the world knew of Snape's activities and courage as a spy.

So eventually the trail would lead to Dumbledore as it did and Voldemort was aware who had killed him - Snape. So the trail would end at Snape's door.

Yes, Snape would be the wand's master. But this would not mean he was its witting master in full possession of that wand. (Any more than Draco was, for several months!) Why would he know of its whereabouts? If he had killed Albus in private, he could claim he never took it. If he killed Albus in public, he would have witnesses that he never took it. And so long as it remained hidden, there would be little point in killing Snape. Voldemort finally took that step, only after he took possession, and in fact, only just before he planned to confront Harry with it.

Between Legilimens, veritaserum, the imperius curse and any other means Voldemort might come up with, he would test Snape on the issue and very likely succeed in discovering him having it or knowing where it was.

Why would he succeed over this, when he had already failed before? We know (and Albus knew) Snape lied to Voldemort, often and successfully. It would require Voldemort to take more drastic steps than he ever had before against Snape, in my view, and I don't see why Albus should believe that he would have reason to, based merely on the fact that Snape killed Albus, having no idea this had any significance beyond pleasing Voldemort.

EDIT: I realize the word "Snape" occurs frequently in this post. However, the ideas of the post are 100% focused not on the relationship between the two men, but what I see as Albus's intentions regarding the Elder wand, and knowledge base. I'd be happy to move this if Mods feel it is indicated, but it seems to be Albus analysis, to me.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I feel that Albus knew that Snape was qualified to protect others from the Elder Wand in just exactly the same manner that Albus was. Namely, he was a person who would not wish to take life with it, and did not require fame and glory for his magical achievements. Snape revealed this much of himself to Albus in the conversations between them that we are shown. Albus would have known of his unwillingness to kill, and he would have known how little the world knew of Snape's activities and courage as a spy.

If Dumbledore were thinking along those line, imo, he would have told Snape all about the Elder Wand and set him up to be the protector of it. Even the way things went down he could have explained to Snape the value of the wand and that Snape should retrieve it and protect it in that regard. Why didn't Dumbledore do either of those things?

Finally, how was Snape supposed to become the master? Killing Dumbledore according to the elder wizard's plan is not besting Dumbledore or showing ones self to be the greater wizard. So it doesn't seem to jive.

Yes, Snape would be the wand's master. But this would not mean he was its witting master in full possession of that wand. (Any more than Draco was, for several months!) Why would he know of its whereabouts? If he had killed Albus in private, he could claim he never took it. If he killed Albus in public, he would have witnesses that he never took it. And so long as it remained hidden, there would be little point in killing Snape. Voldemort finally took that step, only after he took possession, and in fact, only just before he planned to confront Harry with it.

You mean Snape would be the master without knowing it? But how would he become master? And let's say he never knew where the wand was or it was hidden. Voldy would still look for it and look to the killer of the last owenr - Snape. So I don't see why you feel Voldemort would not kill Snape as a result of whatever conversation they had. He killed Grindel, not because he felt he was protecting the wand or Dumbledore - simply because he didn't or couldn't give him the information he was seeking. Snape would be in the same boat. But in Snape's case, Voldemort, who trusted no one including his minions, would have tortured him for the truth, even if Snape was telling it (he didn't know where it was if that was the case) That is why I say it would come down to legilimens, veritaserum, imperius curse, or if Voldemort really believed Snape was useless to him in this regard, death, just like Grindel got.

Why would he succeed over this, when he had already failed before? We know (and Albus knew) Snape lied to Voldemort, often and successfully. It would require Voldemort to take more drastic steps than he ever had before against Snape, in my view, and I don't see why Albus should believe that he would have reason to, based merely on the fact that Snape killed Albus, having no idea this had any significance beyond pleasing Voldemort.

First because this was far more important than anything else to him in the world aside from killing Harry. Second because Snape would be his final guide to the wand - like Grindel was - and Voldemort would likely as not just kill him for being unable to give him information he sought. As we saw, even Snape was expendible to Voldemort - in that case it was to garner power, but equal would be the case where Snape angered him for not being able to give him information - or deciding not to, there would be no difference to Voldemort, he would be at another dead end a place that apparently left him killing mad.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Moriath

*coughSnape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysiscough*

What she said! ^^

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

I'm sorry, but I gotta laugh here. It's Voldemort who demanded unswerving loyalty/service, not Dumbledore. People loyal to Dumbledore, whether Hogwarts faculty or the Order or even Harry, have been shown time and again doing opposite of what they've been told to do by Dumbledore.

Well, I think Dumbledore could not be disobeyed so easily. In fact I have not seen it in the Books. Harry never told anyone about the horcruxes and the Prophecy because Dumbledore only told him to tell Hermione and Ron. Harry stayed with the Dursleys even after Sirius came along, because that was what Dumbledore wished (of course he gave a reason for this particular action), the Order IMO never questioned him on anything; be it the Prophecy they guarded in Harry's 5th year or his command to Snape to tell Harry he needed to be killed by Voldemort IMO. Eveyone fell in line with what Dumbledore wanted them to do IMO.

The difference between Dumbeldore and Voldemort apart from being on opposite sides is in the way they expected to obeyed. Voldemort made the DEs obey because of fear, while Dumbeldore did not; he was truly wise but IMO he expected to be obeyed in every way when he spoke as Leader of the Order/Light.

[RemusLupinFan]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Well, I think Dumbledore could not be disobeyed so easily.

To a degree, I think you're right. I think this is mainly due to the fact that most everyone who knew him respected his wisdom and his experience, and because of this, they were inclined to do whatever he asked of them. Also, I'm sure that a majority of Dumbledore's orders, while being dangerous, made sense in the context of working for the Order. I don't think Dumbledore employed any methods of condescension in giving people orders though, nor do I think he forced them to obey him (perhaps strongly suggested, but not outright forced). With Voldemort and his Death Eaters, disobedience was not an option, unless you wanted to be killed. Dumbledore was generally obeyed because he was respected and trusted, but even so, he was not obeyed all the time by every character (Sirius leaving 12 GP in OotP, for example). I'm sure he expected his orders to be followed because of his status as leader of the Order, but unlike Voldemort where obedience was expected 100%, I think Dumbledore was aware of the fact that there were bound to be disagreements among Order members, and that some of the less savory characters (like Dung) might not always do exactly what he wanted. But in general, I do agree that Dumbledore wasn't a person to be disobeyed very often.

[Kat_Suki]

I don't recall us discussing "easy to disobey" but debating whether disobeying Dumbledore had occurred at all. Harry disobeyed Dumbledore at times. As did Hagrid, Sirius, Mundungus, Severus. Whether easy or difficult, often or rare, it occurred.

You mentioned that Harry never told anyone about the Horcruxes except Ron and Hermione. He may not have discussed them in depth with anyone else, but he certainly did "tell" Voldemort and everybody gathered round watching in the Great Hall, in that final show down: "There are no more Horcruxes. It's just you and me."

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Eveyone fell in line with what Dumbledore wanted them to do IMO.

I disagree.

The Order never questioned him on anything? Never disobeyed? Never chose to do something different than Dumbledore had told them to do?

• Mundungus never skived off and left Harry undefended? Well, now of course he wasn't the most loyal, of course, but he was a member of the Order and he did indeed skive off the Harry detail.
• Sirius never questioned his enforced hiding at Grimmauld Place, never chafed at that, never disobeyed and went out? Hmmm...well yes, he did, didn't he? He accompanied the other Order members and children to King's Cross, where Lucius Malfoy spotted "Padfoot". He also left the house, despite direct orders {admittedly given via Snape}, and accompanied the other Order members to the Ministry to save Harry and Co., and the end result is that he lost his life.
• The other Order members all jumped in prevented Sirius from disobeying a direct order? Oh, they protested - at least Mrs. Weasley did. But no, we see that no one apparently stopped Sirius from his purpose.
• Snape never expressed questions/doubts as to what Dumbledore was up to? Here too, we have canon from Deathly Hallows that says otherwise.
• Snape taught Harry how to master Occlumency, rather than ending those classes? No, he ended those classes and did not resume them - despite the absolute necessity of Harry learning to master this particularly obscure branch of magic.
• McGonagall never allowed Harry/Ron to break the rules and sneak in to see a petrified Hermione? Yes, she did, she even said to tell Madam Pomfrey it was her idea! Then allowed the boys to walk off unattended and all with a 'tear' in her eye.
• Gilderoy Lockhart never just let the kids go off to their next classes unattended, when teachers were expected to see the children safely through the corridors because students had been attacked/petrified? Admittedly, this sham of an individual showed exactly how easily gotten round he was, but yes, he too disobeyed the security escort and let the entire class go off alone.

Harry never once disobeyed Dumbledore? There are too many occasions to list in which Harry didn't listen to Dumbledore, the rules, the teachers, Order members, friends.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

he expected to be obeyed in every way when he spoke as Leader of the Order/Light.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. He issued the orders, he wanted them followed. That doesn't mean he "expected" everyone to comply fully, to never question or disobey. I don't see Dumbledore treating anyone as though they were mindless drones that must at all times do his bidding. There are any number of times that we see individuals exercise their free will and choose to disregard Dumbledore or question what he was doing.

[The_Green_Woods]

The one time I think Dumbledore's suggestion and offer was not taken was when James, Lily did not listen to him and made Sirius SK; who in turn persuaded the Potters to switch SK at the last minute and were killed.

Apart from that one time I don't think there was a time when Dumbledoe's offer was not taken or when he was disobeyed. The 7 Potters; it was Snape who obeyed him that time, and Dumbledore's own death were according to how he wished it.

And like you said, I also agree that the Order, Snape and Harry thought him a wizard of formidable reputation and simply accepted his orders without questioning him.

From another point of view, I wonder how much of a strain Dumbledore was under, because after the firast war and the death of Voldmeort, he planned everything for the fothcoming second war, from leaving Harry with the Dursleys, against McGonagall's wishes, (again she fell in line with him, rather than convincing him that the Dursleys home was no place to raise a child) to Harry's own death in the Forest and the final defeat of Voldemort.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan

To a degree, I think you're right. I think this is mainly due to the fact that most everyone who knew him respected his wisdom and his experience, and because of this, they were inclined to do whatever he asked of them. Also, I'm sure that a majority of Dumbledore's orders, while being dangerous, made sense in the context of working for the Order. I don't think Dumbledore employed any methods of condescension in giving people orders though, nor do I think he forced them to obey him (perhaps strongly suggested, but not outright forced). With Voldemort and his Death Eaters, disobedience was not an option, unless you wanted to be killed. Dumbledore was generally obeyed because he was respected and trusted, but even so, he was not obeyed all the time by every character (Sirius leaving 12 GP in OotP, for example). I'm sure he expected his orders to be followed because of his status as leader of the Order, but unlike Voldemort where obedience was expected 100%, I think Dumbledore was aware of the fact that there were bound to be disagreements among Order members, and that some of the less savory characters (like Dung) might not always do exactly what he wanted. But in general, I do agree that Dumbledore wasn't a person to be disobeyed very often.

I would agree. For the most part those in the Order and others followed him due to his wisdom, et. al., however, we see examples where Sirius, Harry, James, Lily, Lupin, Snape, Ministry Officials, Kingsley, and Molly don't follow his orders or concede to his wisdom - or attempt not to do so. There was no retribution from Dumbledore as there would be from Voldemort and everyone knew that. But when it came to fighting Voldemort, most felt that he knew what was best.

There were times, however, when autonomy had to be practiced - and various characters did what they wanted despite Dumbledore's orders. Some people see this as a bad thing, but I see it as a very good thing because even if it hadn't turned out that Dumbledore had his problems with manipulation and nefarious non disclosure - bearing on the criminal (although I am not sure JKR realized this) - it is always good for individuals to think for themselves and ensure that what they are doing is in line with their own morals and belief system. Hence, Harry searching for Hallows instead of Horcruxes or Lupin, Kingsley and Molly trying to circumvent Dumbledore's plan or Sirius thumbing his nose at Dumbledore's advice, to me were autonomous decisions by people who thought for themselves and reached their own conclusions, rather than follow along like sheep.

That is not to say those who followed him were sheep, . Often after thinking things through, they would go along with his plans because they felt them best. But a lot was done on faith and I think at those times, many had to search their hearts to see if they were willing to act on the less than complete knowledge they had. Unfortunately, Dumbleodre was not altogether trustworthy - and you get the feeling that people kind of figured that out because they were after all, disobeying from time to time for non-personal reasons (or not wholly personal).

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

You mentioned that Harry never told anyone about the Horcruxes except Ron and Hermione. He may not have discussed them in depth with anyone else, but he certainly did "tell" Voldemort and everybody gathered round watching in the Great Hall, in that final show down: "There are no more Horcruxes. It's just you and me."

I meant between the time Dumbledore told Harry about the horcruxes the Final battle.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I meant between the time Dumbledore told Harry about the horcruxes the Final battle.

Ah...oh well yeah, that's a bit different, innit?

No, Harry is not seen disclosing anything about Horcruxes to people other than Ron and Hermione - during the time that he's told about them and just prior to the last part of the Battle of Hogwarts when he faces down Voldemort.

[horcrux4]

Harry told Neville the snake had to be killed, didn't he? (and just as well as it turned out.) Admittedly he didn't explain why (following Dumbledore's example?) but he passed on information no-one but the Trio knew.

Several of the Order Members tried to find out what Dumbledore had told Harry and what their purpose was. I'm sure Dumbledore had reasons for not wanting them involved, but in wanting Harry to tell Ron & Hermione, he was ensuring that the "Dream Team" dealt with the job. He knew only Harry could finish off Voldemort and that was his aim, although he said at the end of OotP that he had been tempted to save Harry and let others suffer. He overcame that though and was prepared to let the boy he loved die (trusting that Voldy using Harry's blood would in fact save Harry). My feeling is that if other members of the Order had known about the horcruxes, they'd have tried to stop the Trio, thinking they were too young. And it was essential that as few people as possible knew about the horcruxes because if Voldy found out (and if Snape knew there was a chance of that) he'd take measures to make them virtually impossible to destroy.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by wwb

Unfortunately, Dumbleodre was not altogether trustworthy - and you get the feeling that people kind of figured that out because they were after all, disobeying from time to time for non-personal reasons (or not wholly personal).

Indeed, Secrets & Lies seems to be the impression we get of Dumbledore in the darker portions of Deathly Hallows.

I wonder, though, which of the characters had the most accurate assesment of Dumbledore. Harry gets a lot of biased information in the beginning, from Doge and from Skeeter. I think he could have gotten a lot of that clarified if he could have gone to McGonagall or to Snape, though that would have been problematic even if he had tried to attend his 7th year at Hogwarts. We never really get much of a sense of how much McGonagall knows, and Snape's view of Dumbledore also seems to me to be colored with a bit of resentment.

You'd think that Aberforth would be a good source of information on the truth about Albus, but IMO you also get a lot of bitterness and resentment from him; lingering jealousy, it seems, in addition to the blame Aberforth ascribes to Albus over the death of Ariana.