Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

[The_Green_Woods]

Writing in the Snape thread, I was struck by a thought.

Why did Albus Dumbledore, not oblivate Snape that night when he realised that Snape had heard half the Prophecy?

Did Albus want Snape to go on and tell Voldemort about what he had heard? Aberforth found Snape hidden and threw him out. Why did Dumbledore never bother to make sure Snape would not tell Voldmeort? While he did not know Harry would be the chosen child; he must have realised that any baby born at the right time would become a target. And yet Albus Dumbeldore was content to let Snape leave and take what he heard to Voldemort.

Any thoughts?

[wickedwickedboy]

I don't think Dumbledore was 100% sure Snape overheard, he couldn't have been. Now although we are talking Dumbledore, I think even he draws the line at some forms of behavior. I would opine that random obliviations on mere suspicion is one of them.

[kittling]

Good question TGW

If you look at the inconsistancies in the different tellings of the incedent it begins to look even move suspicious.

If Snape is only supposed to have heard the begining part of the prophecy - how does Trelawney remembers him being caught evesdropping?

[The_Green_Woods]

He was the one who aske Snape to Confund Dung for the 7 Potters. I think Dumbledore would not mind using the Confundus Charm on Snape, if not the oblivate IMO.

Knowing it was a Prophecy about Voldemort and its importance, that he kept Trelwaney in the School for her safety for the next 17 - 18 years by offering her the job he was going to refuse probably, I find it surprising that Dumbledore let Snape walk away with what he heard; which led me to think he left Snape to go to Voldemort deliberately.

I also think he knew Snape had heard a part of it. He says so somewhere. (i OOTP I think)

Originally Posted by kittling

If Snape is only supposed to have heard the begining part of the prophecy - how does Trelawney remembers him being caught evesdropping?

I forgot about that, good thought Kit.

I think even Trelawney's knowledge about Snape being there can be explained by Aberforth's presence. He was the one who discovered Snape hiding in the first place and he may have removed Snape from that place where he could hear everything and then with Dumbledore's consent thrown him out. By then Trelawney would have finished her Prophecy and would ahve retuned to normalcy and would have seen Snape trying to get away from Aberforth. Dumbledore, just let him go at that time, with whatever knowledge he had of the Prophecy IMO.

But Dumbeldore's action, allowed Snape to go to Voldemort with a Prophecy that would mark for death a boy born as the seventh month ends.

Who was responsible for the Propehcy reaching Voldmeort?

Snape or Dumbledore?

[OldMotherCrow]

I think Snape successfully lied to Dumbledore about what he overheard. Snape is a great Occlumens. We know he could fool Voldemort, so why not Dumbledore? Dumbledore probably had his suspicions, but couldn't see anything via Legilimency to indicate Snape had heard anything, so let him go.

[The_Green_Woods]

I don't think it happened that way. In HBP Trelawney tells Harry how it happened.

HBP - The Seer Overheard "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself was seeking a job at that time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was because he appreciated the stark contrast by my own unassuming manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young man who was prepared to listen at keyholes - Harry dear?"

Trelawney tells Harry that Aberforth caught Snape evesdropping at the keyhole. That must have been the time when one half of the Prophecy was over. Aberfoth catching Snape would have startled him and by the time Aberforth came to the doorway with Snape, Trelawney had awakened and returned to normalcy.

Dumbledore knew Snape had overheard one part of the Prophecy; Aberforth had caught him evesdropping and still allowed him to leave IMO.

Why did Dumbledore allow Snape to go when he knew it would mean the death of a family?

It also makes Dumbledore culpable along with Snape, more than Snape about the Prophecy reaching Voldemort, for he allowed Snape to leave with it IMO.

[TreacleTartlet]

Looking at Trelawney's account and the meeting on the hillside between Snape and Dumbledore, it seems to me that Dumbledore knew or at the very least suspected that Snape had overheard the prophesy.

HBP, The Seer Overheard

'Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me the job...'

DH, The Prince's Tale

'The - prophesy...the perdiction... Trelawney...'
Ah, yes, said Dumbledore. 'How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?'

Dumbledore, only hired Trelawney for her protection so he must have known or have suspected that Snape had overheard the prophesy. Yet, he still let Snape go.

[OldMotherCrow]

I don't think Dumbledore knew that Snape had heard half the Prophecy until later. I think he understood, like Trelawney, that Snape had been trying to eavesdrop, but Legilimency would have shown that Snape overheard nothing, because Snape is a great Occlumens. And so Dumbledore would have let Snape go, maybe with doubts, but not with any knowledge that Snape had overheard part of the Prophecy. Dumbledore would have found out later, from Snape when he switched sides, or perhaps from some other spy.

Voldemort sent Snape to the inn to try to get a job at Hogwarts, to spy for the DEs. I don't think Snape would have that task if his skills weren't at least considered adequate. And we know from canon that he is well able to lie to a master Legilimens. I personally don't see anything in that scene to indicate that Dumbledore knew at that time that Snape had heard half the Prophecy and was off to Voldemort with the news.

Given the importance of the Prophecy, he did hire Trelawney for her protection. On the hilltop, Dumbledore might just be quick on the uptake. He doesn't say anything that indicates more knowledge than putting two-and-two together right then might garner him. When he asks Snape how much of the Prophecy he relayed to Voldemort, it sounds like Dumbledore really doesn't know how much of the Prophecy Snape could have relayed, which would indicate to me that Dumbledore did not know that Snape heard part of it.

[The_Green_Woods]

HBP - Seer Overheard "Please let me finish," Dumbledore waited until Harry nodded curtly, and then went on. "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's Prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then on wards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest ere people that professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -"

I think it's clear that Dumbledore was aware Snape heard the Prophecy. Both here and in OOTP, Dumbledore never says he did not know Snape had heard. It was always Someone had heard half the Prophecy and later Snape had heard. Never does Dumbledore say he was unaware that Snape had heard IMO.

I think Dumbledore allowed Snape to go to Voldmeort, hoping that Voldmeort would set store by the Prophecy and ultimately fall because of it. Which is what happend.

As I wrote before it makes Dumbeldore more culpable than Snape IMO. Snape was a DE; he had no loyalty or anything about a family that would die because of Voldmeort hearing about this. Dumbledore was the leader of the LIght and he allowed Snape to leave with thi knowledge IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I don't think Dumbledore knew that Snape had heard half the Prophecy until later. I think he understood, like Trelawney, that Snape had been trying to eavesdrop, but Legilimency would have shown that Snape overheard nothing, because Snape is a great Occlumens. And so Dumbledore would have let Snape go, maybe with doubts, but not with any knowledge that Snape had overheard part of the Prophecy. Dumbledore would have found out later, from Snape when he switched sides, or perhaps from some other spy.

Voldemort sent Snape to the inn to try to get a job at Hogwarts, to spy for the DEs. I don't think Snape would have that task if his skills weren't at least considered adequate. And we know from canon that he is well able to lie to a master Legilimens. I personally don't see anything in that scene to indicate that Dumbledore knew at that time that Snape had heard half the Prophecy and was off to Voldemort with the news.

Given the importance of the Prophecy, he did hire Trelawney for her protection. On the hilltop, Dumbledore might just be quick on the uptake. He doesn't say anything that indicates more knowledge than putting two-and-two together right then might garner him. When he asks Snape how much of the Prophecy he relayed to Voldemort, it sounds like Dumbledore really doesn't know how much of the Prophecy Snape could have relayed, which would indicate to me that Dumbledore did not know that Snape heard part of it.

That is a good point, Dumbledore didn't likely realize at the time that Snape had overheard anything. But even if he did suspect Snape had heard part of it, perhaps he felt that Snape might show a little honor since a new born baby's life would be in jeopardy. As he said himself, even an old man can make mistakes.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think it's clear that Dumbledore was aware Snape heard the Prophecy.

I think it clear that at the time he was speaking Dumbledore was aware that Snape had heard half the prophecy . But Dumbledore doesn't say that back then he knew that Snape had heard the half Prophecy. To me, Dumbledore seems to be speakiking about his present knowledge.

Both here and in OOTP, Dumbledore never says he did not know Snape had heard. It was always Someone had heard half the Prophecy and later Snape had heard. Never does Dumbledore say he was unaware that Snape had heard IMO.

Dumbledore also never says that he was aware, at the time it happened, that Snape had heard part of the Prophecy. So I don't think there is evidence there that he knew that Snape had heard.

I think Dumbledore allowed Snape to go to Voldmeort, hoping that Voldmeort would set store by the Prophecy and ultimately fall because of it. Which is what happend.

I don't think Dumbledore did that, based on the evidence we have. I wonder if he would have done that, in a what-if scenario, though. On the one hand, he is very Machiavellian, but he seemed to want to protect the Potters for as long as possible, and Harry for as long as possible. There's nothing in the Prophecy that says that Harry needed to be attacked as a baby, or his parents murdered. There's no good reason to rush the prophecy to Voldemort at all, but better to let Harry grow and learn his skills. Giving any part of the Prophecy to Voldemort too early undermines that. The whole Secret Keeper business doesn't really fit in, unless you mean that Dumbledore wanted to be the Potters' Secret Keeper so he could rat them out, and it was only good luck that when they didn't pick him they chose Peter Pettigrew instead.

I don't think it really flows together, plot-wise.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

But even if he did suspect Snape had heard part of it, perhaps he felt that Snape might show a little honor since a new born baby's life would be in jeopardy. As he said himself, even an old man can make mistakes.

Maybe, although I don't think Dumbledore would have any illusions about what Death eaters were capable of doing. I don't think he was certain Snape was a Death Eater, and he wasn't sure Snape had managed to hear any of the Prophecy, though in my opinion Dumbledore had his suspicions. But maybe he did decide to give the benefit of the doubt because of his uncertainty, and hope that Snape possessed a measure of human decency and compassion.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think it clear that at the time he was speaking Dumbledore was aware that Snape had heard half the prophecy . But Dumbledore doesn't say that back then he knew that Snape had heard the half Prophecy. To me, Dumbledore seems to be speakiking about his present knowledge.

Yes. I think all he knew was that Severus had been apprehended by Aberforth outside the door of the room in which he interviewed Sybil. Severus's warning and/or Voldemort's actions could have clued him in to what Severus did.

I don't think it really flows together, plot-wise.

I agree. And I also think that the lack of a confession or apology by Albus towards Harry for this specific hypothetical crime, supports our view.

I don't see Albus and Sybil's accounts of the evening as at all inconsistent, I find that they are not difficult to reconcile with the following hypothetical chain of events:

Here, in gory detail and chronological order, is a series of events as they *might* have happened, that contradict neither account.

1) Snape starts to listen at the door to the conversation of
Dumbledore and Trelawney.
2) Dumbledore feels around for a way to tell Trelawney he has decided
not to hire her.
(1 and 2 might be switched, only Snape really knows when he started
listening, and we do not have his version).
3) Trelawney begins the prophecy.
4) The barman sees Snape and pulls him away from the door before the
prophecy is complete, so Snape does not hear the rest.
5) Snape offers his lame excuse of being lost, the barman scoffs at
it, as Trelawney wraps up her Prophecy and begins to come out of her
trance.
6) The volume of the discussion/struggle between the barman and Snape
intensifies, to the point where it can now be heard by Dumbledore and
Trelawney (this is the 'scuffle' she refers to)
7) The barman drags Snape in to show to Dumbledore.
8) Snape is thrown from the building.

Dumbledore's account covers 2)(the interview was over), 3), 4) and 8) without mentioning the important detail 7), but also without denying it might have happened. His choice of language is misleading, but what he says is true under my scenario. His motive for using this language in OotP is to attempt to deflect the possible question 'so who was it?' from Harry.

Trelawney's account vaguely implies 2) (she noted how much more receptive Dumbledore is after her 'funny spell', but attributes this to the poor impression left by Snape). She mentions 3) (though she does not know it, this is when she feels funny), 6) and 7). She neither saw nor heard 5) both because she was in a prophetic trance, and because it was not loud enough to be heard through the door while sitting across the room from it, so her failure to mention it is not odd. She did not mention 8) because she does not know it either - Snape and the barman left, she stayed to continue her interview. DD knows 8) because the barman told him later. Not a particularly odd circumstance, as the barman is Aberforth Dumbledore, Albus's brother.

Of course if readers find the idea Dumbledore lied to Harry more convincing, that's fine. But there is a way the events could have played out that is consistent with both accounts.

To me, the account above, which leaves all deliberate evil intentions (such as they were) squarely with Severus, is the hands-down favorite.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I agree. And I also think that the lack of a confession or apology by Albus towards Harry for this specific hypothetical crime, supports our view.I don't see Albus and Sybil's accounts of the evening as at all inconsistent,

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think it clear that at the time he was speaking Dumbledore was aware that Snape had heard half the prophecy . But Dumbledore doesn't say that back then he knew that Snape had heard the half Prophecy. To me, Dumbledore seems to be speakiking about his present knowledge.

I'll try and give another quote from the book; In TPT Dumbledore was not unaware of Snape's action, when Snape comes to him on the hill IMO.

DH - TPT "I - I come with a warning - no, a request - please -" Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the spot where he and Snape faced each other. "What could a death eater make of me?" "The - the Prophecy....prediction.....Trelawney..." "Ah yes," said Dumbledore "How much did you relay to Lord Voldmeort?" "Everything - everything I heard!" said Snape. "That is why - it is for that reason - he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

bold mine

I think Dumbledore seems aware of the fact Snape not only heard the Prophecy, but also would and did inform Voldemort about it.

I don't think Dumbledore did that, based on the evidence we have. I wonder if he would have done that, in a what-if scenario, though. On the one hand, he is very Machiavellian, but he seemed to want to protect the Potters for as long as possible, and Harry for as long as possible. There's nothing in the Prophecy that says that Harry needed to be attacked as a baby, or his parents murdered. There's no good reason to rush the prophecy to Voldemort at all, but better to let Harry grow and learn his skills. Giving any part of the Prophecy to Voldemort too early undermines that. The whole Secret Keeper business doesn't really fit in, unless you mean that Dumbledore wanted to be the Potters' Secret Keeper so he could rat them out, and it was only good luck that when they didn't pick him they chose Peter Pettigrew instead.

I see it like this.

I think Dumbledore did know Snape had over heard some if not all of the Prophecy. He was caught at that time by Aberforth and knowing what we do about Dumbledore, I just cannot believe he would have simply assumed Snape did or did not hear Trelawney.

He apparently thougt Trelawney's Prophecy was important; important enough to keep her safe? Why? If Dumbledore was sure no one heard the Prophecy, why give her a job, which he was not planning to before. He tells Harry in HBP that he wanted to keep her safe from Voldmeort and he does for almost 18+ years.

Trelawney was unaware she had given a Prophecy and no one else apart from Dumbledore, Aberforth and Snape heard her. If Dumbledore was unaware or thought Snape had not heard her, why should he need to keep her safe?

Voldmeort knew only because of Snape. No one else in that party was ever going to tell him there was a Prophecy that would ensure his downfall.

So, I think it is possible Dumbledore knew that Voldmeort was going to hear of a Prophecy (the only doubt which he expressess in TPT is how much Snape relayed to Voldmeort, not surprise or shock that Snape had indeed heard the Prophecy and relayed it to his Master) and it was because he did not want Voldmeort to hunt Trelawney down, mind rape her about the Prophecy she did not know she made that Dumbeldore gave her a job. This is canon.

I think Dumbledore allowed Snape to tell Voldemort and then both he and Voldmeort watched as 2 boys were born as the 7th month dies. Harry and Neville. it was at that time, Snapae came to him, telling him which of the boys Voldmeort had chosen, something Dumbledore did not expect. He used Snape and concentrated on Harry giving the Potters the perfect way to remain alive and safe, until Harry would be old enough and ready to meet Voldemort.

He suggested the Fidelus Charm and offered to be SK. That plan blew apart unfortunately and from there we saw events as they happened in the books.

It does not take away Snape's guilt, for as far as Snape is concerned, he told Voldmeort the Prophecy that got Lily killed. Dumbledore is not guilt ridden, because the Potters trusted the wrong person.

I think for him, the Prophecy, like the Elder wand was the means to defeat Voldemort. He used himself, his death to help the Light in the war; he used Snape and the Elder wand for the same and he used the Prophecy in the same manner. Snape was the bonus; because Voldmeort had chosen Harry; so that helped him to identify the chosen boy rather than concentrate on 2 boys, until he somehow came to kn0ow which boy Voldmeort had meant, in addition to having a spy who was loyal to him in Voldmeort's camp, to help Harry.

I do feel Dumbledore was aware of Snape over hearing the Prophecy, but any plan he had intended to make with it (that is with Snape handing over the information to Voldemort) came to a standstill with the Potters deaths IMO.

I don't know if Dumbledore need make a confession or an apology, for the Potters were betrayed. But when I talk about how Snape was culpable the murder of an innocent baby and its parents, I think I must also realise that it was Dumbledore made it possible by allowing Snape to walk away with half the Prophecy, without ensuring he would keep it a secret.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I agree. And I also think that the lack of a confession or apology by Albus towards Harry for this specific hypothetical crime, supports our view.

Another good point. I would agree that if we were suppoesed to reach the conclusion that Dumbledore sent Snape off to relay the prophecy, he might have mentioned it at King's Cross. Or at least someone could have given some indication at the end of the series that that is how it went down!

Edit: I was going to reply to this yesterday, but had to go places and do things

Originally Posted by The Green Woods

I'll try and give another quote from the book; In TPT Dumbledore was not unaware of Snape's action, when Snape comes to him on the hill IMO.

DH - TPT
"I - I come with a warning - no, a request - please -"

Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the spot where he and Snape faced each other.

"What could a death eater make of me?"

"The - the Prophecy....prediction.....Trelawney..."

"Ah yes," said Dumbledore "How much did you relay to Lord Voldmeort?"

"Everything - everything I heard!" said Snape. "That is why - it is for that reason - he thinks it means Lily Evans!"

bold mine

I think Dumbledore seems aware of the fact Snape not only heard the Prophecy, but also would and did inform Voldemort about it.

When I read this passage, I come to the opposite conclusion: Dumbledore was unaware that Snape had overheard part of the Prophecy until Snape told him on the hill. When Snape starts babbling about the Prophecy, that tells Dumbledore right then that Snape knew about it. Dumbledore is a pretty smart guy, so I think he puts two and two together. The next question makes sense in that context. If Snape knows about the Prophecy, then he must have heard it-- now to determine how much damage has been done. Dumbledore is aware that Snape is a Death Eater in this scene, but this does not mean he knew so at the time of the Prophecy. IMO, Snape wouldn't have been sent to try to get a job at Hogwarts if he was a known entity, and nowhere does Dumbledore state that he knew Snape was a Death Eater all along. I think Dumbledore discovered the truth in the interval, or perhaps Snape's message asking for a meeting confirmed a suspicion.

[horcrux4]

"Ah yes," said Dumbledore "How much did you relay to Lord Voldmeort?"

The way Dumbledore says this reminds me of his conversation with Malfoy on the tower - "Ah, yes. How long has Rosmerta been under the Imperius curse?" (quote may not be accurate as my HBP isn't here!) In that case he had just worked out what had happened, and I feel the same about his remark to Snape. Dumbledore is a very quick thinker.

I don't think his desire to protect Trelawney was necessarily because she would be endangered when Snape told V about it, so much as she had made the prophecy at all, and only by keeping her close at hand could he ensure Voldemort didn't hear it. Dumbledore says later that he doesn't set much store by prophecies and that this one only worked out because Voldemort acted on it. Do we assume from that that he thought nothing would come of it if he sat on it (and Trelawney)? Did he want her under his eye in case she made any more prophecies? There are a lot of possibilities to this situation.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Another good point. I would agree that if we were supposed to reach the conclusion that Dumbledore sent Snape off to relay the prophecy, he might have mentioned it at King's Cross. Or at least someone could have given some indication at the end of the series that that is how it went down!

I don't think he would have mentioned it, because that plan never took off. It ended with the Potters being betrayed. Dumbledore would have felt guilty if they had been murdered despite the precautions taken. They were, but they were betrayed, which lets Dumbledore off the hook. He is not responsible because it was not his plans that made them die. So, I don't think he would apologise or feel bad about it, for his plans never even took off IMO. And that was why they found no mention in King's Cross IMO.

When I read this passage, I come to the opposite conclusion: Dumbledore was unaware that Snape had overheard part of the Prophecy until Snape told him on the hill. When Snape starts babbling about the Prophecy, that tells Dumbledore right then that Snape knew about it. Dumbledore is a pretty smart guy, so I think he puts two and two together. The next question makes sense in that context. If Snape knows about the Prophecy, then he must have heard it-- now to determine how much damage has been done. Dumbledore is aware that Snape is a Death Eater in this scene, but this does not mean he knew so at the time of the Prophecy. IMO, Snape wouldn't have been sent to try to get a job at Hogwarts if he was a known entity, and nowhere does Dumbledore state that he knew Snape was a Death Eater all along. I think Dumbledore discovered the truth in the interval, or perhaps Snape's message asking for a meeting confirmed a suspicion.

For me, it's Dumbledore! He was the person who knew everything! Who understood events and their ramifications even as they happened. He was the master planner who got Voldemort down. He was also the leader who took on not only Voldemort but also the Ministry and faced them and succeeded. Even his death, he planned and executed in the way he thought would matter to the war. It was the way he wanted, the way he intended it should be IMO.

HBP - The Seer Overheard ""Dumbledore did me the courtesy of calling upon me in my room. He questioned me...I must confess that, at first, he seemed ill disposed towards Divination... and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day...but then..." And now Harry was paying attention properly for the first time, for he knew what had happened then; Professor Trelawney had made the prophecy that had altered the course of his whole life, the prophecy about him and Voldemort. "...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape." "What" "Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore - you see, he himself was seeking a job at that time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was because he appreciated the stark contrast by my own unassuming manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young man who was prepared to listen at keyholes - Harry dear?" HBP - Seer Overheard = "Please let me finish," Dumbledore waited until Harry nodded curtly, and then went on. "Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's Prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then on wards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest ere people that professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -"

These are the 2 times that the making of the Prophecy is revealed. In OOTP, Dumbledore tells Harry, that he had concluded the interview, told Trelawney that she would not be suitable and was about to leave when she spoke the Prophecy.

OOTP - The Lost Prophecy "The applicant, however, was the great-great- granddaughter of a very gifted Seer and I thought it common politeness to meet her. I was disappointed. it seemed to me, she had not a trace of the gift herself. I told her, courteously, I hope, that I did not think she would be suitable for the post. I turned to leave."

Dumbledore had finished with the interview and had got up and turned to leave, when she spoke the Prophecy.

1) In the first quote from HBP, Trelawney is aware of Snape, which means she had finished the Prophecy. Dumbledore had turned to leave, when she started off the prophecy, which Dumbledore would have turned back to listen to.

2) Snape had heard half the prophecy.

3) The interview was in Trelawney's room, which could be accessed by the stairs.

4) Snape, according to Trelawney was "waffling" about having come the wrong way up the stairs.

5) Aberforth caught Snape outside Trelawney's room and he dragged Snape inside.

6) The prophecy itself, probably took not even a minute to utter and Snape had heard half of it, we know.

7) Trelawney herself is unaware of the Prophecy, but is aware that Snape had been eavesdropping.

8) Dumbledore sends Snape away, without any enquiry whatsoever.

9) The next he sees Snape is on the hill.

The meeting took place in Trelawney's room and Snape's excuse according to Trelawney was that he had come up the wrong way. Aberforth had caught Snape eavesdropping, and I think it's reasonable to presume that Dumbledore did not simply assume Snape would have heard nothing and sent him off, knowing the prophecy was about the downfall of Voldemort, which Dumbledore kept secret for years IMO.

Even if he did, would Dumbledore allow a man who has been acting so suspiciously to leave just like that? They were in the middle of the first war, when this happened.

With all these facts and knowing Dumbledore, who rarely, if not ever, does nothing without a reason, I think it's possible, that he allowed Snape to go to where ever he came from, knowing full well that Snape could have heard a part or in full of the prophecy.

Such a secret, he allowed Snape to carry away, without examining him is something I just cannot believe of Dumbledore.

Snape cannot say he came for a drink or for a meal, for the interview was in Trelawney's room; so he was eavesdropping deliberately, not accidentally. With that in mind, I'm sure Dumbledore would have been aware of the possibility of Snape overhearing the full or at least a part of the Prophecy. Knowing Dumbledore, I think he would have assumed Snape knew and would have acted on that premise, rather than Snape may not have heard.

I think there were two things ::

1) Dumbledore by not checking whether Snape heard the prophecy or not, by simply assuming Snape would not have heard would be negligent to the extreme, seeing the nature of the prophecy Trelawney made. This makes him unworthy of being a leader.

2) Dumbledore realised or knew Snape had heard some or all of the prophecy, having already made lightning quick calculations, deliberately allowed Snape to leave with it to Voldemort for a specific purpose.

I think the 2nd point is more believable; but whatever the plans he had, came to an end when the Potters were betrayed IMO.

That betrayal took away his responsibility of sending the prophecy as it were, to Voldemort, and his role in Snape handing over the prophecy to his master.

But is there a possibility that Dumbledore was indeed aware of Snape hearing the prophecy and allowing him to walk to Voldemort with it IMO. Yes I think so.

[TheShley]

1. What are your general thoughts on Dumbledore as a character through books 1-7? Do you see a difference in his behavior and/or actions between the books?

I really believe that Dumbledore was a good man, throughout all the books. I personally did not notice any differences in Dumbldore, aside from him opening up more to Harry - about Harry obviously.

2. Throughout the books, Dumbledore seems to always be teaching Harry something, but his lessons are sometimes hidden and subtle. What do you believe are the most important lessons Dumbledore taught Harry? Did Dumbledore adequately prepare Harry for the trials that lie ahead in book 7? Is there anything you think Dumbledore should have told Harry before he died?

I'm not entirely sure if he did teach him this, or maybe its just how I feel about it... I'm not sure, but I think he showed him to believe in himself. And that was important. I'm not sure if Harry ever felt like Dumby did that. But I'm pretty sure that was the point of him being so subtle - to, like I think someone said, maybe Hermione?, test his strengths. To ultimately show Harry that he could do it on his own. As every thing thing that was ahead of him was so unknown, most of it was guesswork, what more could he have done to help him? When Dumbledore himself, didnt really know what was coming. Maybe he could have told him about Godric's Hollow, but I dont really think, in terms of the Horcruxes, that he could have told him more. In Snapes memory, it shows Dumbledore saying how else would Harry have the strength do it, if he had known what he had to do? I think Dumbledore was right to keep that fomr Harry. Mostly because Dumbledore didnt really know if it would work, him sacrificing himself in that way.

3. What did you think of the revelations of DH regarding Dumbledore's family? How did these tragedies effect the person he is now?

I did feel quite bad for the little Dumbledore's. He lived his whole long life, with all that inside him, feeling all his guilt, and his brothers anger and missing his family. Its strange to think of Dumbledore, so brave and clever and talented, crying in his room cuz he thinks he killed his sister. Even before finding out about his past, that scene in HBP, where he's moaning and crying and stuff really freaked me out. (I dont know if thats off the point...)

4. Why do you think Dumbledore and Grindelwald were friends? How did Dumbledore's homosexuality affect his susceptibility to Grindelwald's ideas?

Did JKR ever say who Dumbledore's one love was? I remember her mentioning him having one. And I always thought that it must have been Grindelwald. Is that just me? Or do others think that too? And thats all I have to say on that matter.

5. Was Dumbledore right to keep so many secrets from so many people? Was this secrecy because of his sister? Because of his own homosexuality?

I think he doesnt talk of his family or whatever purely because of his guilt. It must hurt something rotten to think you might have killed you baby sister. But also, we only see things from Harrys perspective and I do feel as though Dumbledore giving Harry his life story would have been a tad inapropriate. But I think he was right to keep the secrets of Voldemort, mainly because my mum always tells me not to put all my eggs in one basket. (Well, she said that to me once, and I ignored her, then all my eggs got smashed and I knew she was right.)

6. What do you think of Dumbledore's recognition of his own failings? His decision not to enter the Ministry?

I think thats one of the things that makes him such a good man. It is only human to have faults - no one is perfect - but its ok to have faults, esp if you recognise them and try to change them.

7. Do you think Dumbledore expected too much from Harry? Did he do the right thing? Was it fair to ask Harry to sacrifice himself?

Yes and No. But I dont think that Dumbledore would have expected it, if he didnt think it was possible. He had faith in Harry, and pushed him to his best. Maybe it wasn't fair to ask that of Harry, but I think Harry would have done it anyway, even if Dumbledore hadn't of asked. Did he ask him to?

8. Does the revelation of his homosexuality ultimately affect his character? What actions, if any, do you see differently now?

No, I dont see anything differently now. I did try and see if I could see any - sounds bad - 'gayness' in the way Dumbledore was, that I might not have picked up on before, but I couldnt see anything and soon forgot that I was looking for it. And I think that is because there is never a situation where sexuality would come up. Not that I was looking for a decloration, just that first and foremost, Dumbledore is a teacher and a very good one at that. He is professional and a gentleman. Anyway, ~I might have rambled there Im sorry, but I just cant notice a thing. But I havent got gaydar

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Dumbledore knew Snape had overheard one part of the Prophecy; Aberforth had caught him evesdropping and still allowed him to leave IMO.

Why did Dumbledore allow Snape to go when he knew it would mean the death of a family?

I think this is the question you have to answer because I can't think of any reason that makes sense - except Dumbledore was a dark lord. He could only want Voldemort to hear the prophecy if his plan was for Voldemort to kill some child. What possible purpose would that serve? If Voldemort never heard the prophecy, then it would never have to be fulfilled and the Order could kill Voldemort. If Voldemort did hear it, he would kill some kid and the prophecy would be fulfilled. I see no reason at all for Dumbledore to wish Voldemort to hear it at that point, unless Dumbledore was simply evil and wished to have Voldemort go about killing children. There is no plan in that situation that would make sense, imo, so he would not have deliberately allowed Snape to take the prophecy to Voldemort.

[kittling]

I don't know - I think it is possible Dumbledore was taking into account that Voldemort was likely to act on a prophecy of this sort. After all he had taught him, was keeping an eye on him all the way through school and it is likely imo that after about 10 years of VW1 he had already begun a more indepth examination of Tom Riddle/Voldemorts history & character.

The point of prophecies, from a Macbeth pov, is that they only work if acted upon and we know that JKR was taking this stance. So Dumbledore had just heard that there was a way of defeating Voldemort but to do so the prophecy would have to be acted on. Taking this into account I don't find t surprising tha the let the person who overheard it go. It seems to me that ths may be another point where Dumbledore was acting 'for the greater good'

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by kittling

I don't know - I think it is possible Dumbledore was taking into account that Voldemort was likely to act on a prophecy of this sort. After all he had taught him, was keeping an eye on him all the way through school and it is likely imo that after about 10 years of VW1 he had already begun a more indepth examination of Tom Riddle/Voldemorts history & character.

The point of prophecies, from a Macbeth pov, is that they only work if acted upon and we know that JKR was taking this stance. So Dumbledore had just heard that there was a way of defeating Voldemort but to do so the prophecy would have to be acted on. Taking this into account I don't find t surprising tha the let the person who overheard it go. It seems to me that ths may be another point where Dumbledore was acting 'for the greater good'

But at that point, there was no valid reason for Voldemort to be the one who died if he acted on it. He'd kill the child and its parents - prophecy fulfilled. There is no other outcome that I can think of. He could have picked Neville and family and then what? Boom, dead, the end, as I see it. In what way would Voldemort stand a chance of being defeated in that? Dumbledore could not have thought a 1.5 month old child would be a challenge for Voldemort...and its parents wouldn't be a problem either seeing as he was taking out Order members left and right. He could have attacked even earlier and just killed all the pregnant witches he could find. I don't see any plan Dumbledore could have formed.