Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

We do have canon evidence though that Dumbledore was someone who had academic interest in a wide variety of topics. It follows logically that he would have such interest for the objects he was fascinated about. In fact, I'd say that Dumbledore had strong knowledge of wandlore because of the Elder Wand.

Academic interest in a wide variety of topics? yes. Knowing, intutitively or after years of study, that he could not destroy the wand? Maybe. Never trying if he didn't know difinitively? And oversight. And the simply fact is that we are never diffinitively told in canon that he didn't know that he could just break the wand in half.

Dumbledore didn't know they were Animagi. He learnt it from Sirius in PoA. Lily's letter states that Dumbledore "still" had the Cloak, so James didn't get killed immediately after he gave Dumbledore the Cloak.

I stand corrected about the animagi part of my last post and to make it clear I was being flippant when I said James promptly died after loaning it to Dumbledore. I don't think the conversation between them happened that afternoon. Maybe a month before they died.

We are not privy to every conversation they had though. The books would have been gigantic otherwise. At the end of DH, with six years of magical study behind them, the trio knew more about the magical world than we, the readers, did. I think they knew that ancient and powerful magical artifacts were not easily destroyed. They would have studied about other powerful magical objects and their properties in school.

We're privy to the important ones, though, and I can't imagine that if they did discuss destroying the wand at any point that it wouldn't have been included in the book. To say Hermione 'knew from school' that ancient artifacts such as the EW couldn't be destroyed is knowledge by omission which doesn't sit right with me or Hermione's character. If she knew something as important as that she'd make sure everyone else knew she knew it - always puts her hand up in class, she always has the right answer and about destroying the wand she is silent.

Dumbledore, too, is silent on this topic when he's baring all in DH, King's Cross. He goes to painstaking lengths to explain his motivations, why he did what he did, why he didn't tell Harry certain things, but never ever does he say "I won the wand and wanted to destroy it then and there but I knew it's magical protection was too strong..." or "I spent years trying to think of a way to destroy it but try as I might I couldn't even make a scratch on its surface."

Nothing. Nadda. Not even a whisper of desire to destroy the wand is on page. Therefore, based on canon evidence and not supposition about off-camera motivations of characters, I can only conclude that Dumbledore never thought about or tried to destroy the wand.

I guess my biggest problem with this point (the destruction of the wand) is that nothing was included in the books, that there wasn't even a silly line by Harry off-handedly suggesting that they just snap it in two if they ever laid their hands on it, that Hermione never spoke up one way or the other about its indestructability (and she would have, we know enough about her character to know that much!), that Dumbledore never made a confession to Harry that he tried and failed over and over to destroy it.

To be fair, Dumbledore never forced anyone to do anything. They all had a choice. If you wanted out, you could quit and I don't think Dumbledore would have stopped you. Dumbledore understood people, their psychology and their motivations, desires and what-not very well and used it. Its a thin line and personally I feel its a gray area.

With regard to Snape, I don't see his initial reaction as over the top. Snape came and said that he told Voldemort to spare Lily and that it didn't matter if her husband and child were killed. That was disgusting and Dumbledore called him out on it. Snape turned spy because he said he was willing to do anything. Dumbledore didn't force him to take that job. After Lily's death, it was Snape's decision to stay and protect Harry. No doubt, Dumbledore pushed him to it but ultimately, it was Snape's decision. I do think Dumbledore understood Snape's problems and I think that it is partly why he let Snape get away with stuff in school. One thing I think he should have done was to tell Snape that Voldemort was going to come after him eventually.

I never said I had a rational reason. =^J

It seems to me that wands were given a great deal of respect. A cultural thing just like how calling someone "Mudblood" was highly offensive. Meesha1971 answers this more eloquently than I can.

Giving another's wand a great deal of respect and being able to break their wand in half are not mutually exclusive. I would say because you respect someone you wouldn't break their wand just like I'd say if you didn't respect someone it would mean very little to you if you broke their wand.

Personally, and without canon evidence to support this theory, I think if an Order member came upon a DE and defeated them they wouldn't snap the DE's wand. But if a DE defeated an Order member they'd snap the order member's wand in a heart beat as a way to bring them down even further.

Dumbledore's genius was that he accurately predicted what was likely to happen and took pre-emptive action.

Rather than calling that genius I'd call it knowing information no one else knows - specifically in relation to horcruxes and his suspicions that Harry was one. He knew the course of events because he knew that every battle between Voldemort and Harry meant that Voldemort would fail to kill Harry; Dumbledore knew what Voldemort would ultimately come after, the elder wand. he didn't for instance, know when Voldemort would begin his search for the horcrux or what tactics he would use to gain possession of it other than suspecting that the worst methods would be most likely. I don't think Dumbledore really predicted much. He knew what things were eventualities based on Voldemorts past MO, current activities and future desires and could plan his own moves accordingly.

Snape, I think, deserved to know that his life would be under risk at some point. I can only imagine that Dumbledore thought that Snape was better off not knowing that he'd end up on Voldemort's hit list. It would have been on Snape's mind every time Voldemort summoned him.

I think Snape knew his life was at risk from his very first meeting with Dumbledore where he askes Dumbledore to protect Lily. From then on Snape was in mortal peril at every turn - if someone found out he had turned spy, if he didn't pass off a lie convicingly, if Voldemort suspected anything.

with that being said, understanding your life is in danger in much different that being told your death is imminent.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

What I just can't get over, though, is his treatment of other people. He flagrantly manipulated people which really rubs me the wrong way even though it was for 'the greater good' (again in that positive sense) and his treatment of Snape really gets me bent out of shape. Granted, when Snape goes to him after discovering the first part of the prophecy and begs him to protect Lily it's for purely selfish and rather loaths reasons, but I felt like Dumbledore's whole heartedly nasty treatment of this panic-stricken man was over the top. And then after Lily's death he harpoons Snape into looking after the well being of the son of his worst enemy (i'm not mentioning Lily here because Harry's physical resembalance is to James) basically convicting him to a life of reminders of James's treatment of him in their younger years. Both of these things, to me, are what keep me from elevating Dumbledore back to the realm of truly great men - his ends were good and just and fair and I do believe he meant to do well but his means were backhanded, subjugating and caused a lot of emotional strife (particularly for Harry and Snape) that could have otherwise been avoided.

…................................................. ..................
I think Snape knew his life was at risk from his very first meeting with Dumbledore where he askes Dumbledore to protect Lily. From then on Snape was in mortal peril at every turn - if someone found out he had turned spy, if he didn't pass off a lie convicingly, if Voldemort suspected anything.

Answered on the Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis thread.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I think Dumbledore intended to tell Harry a few more things but his death came at an unexpected time. I think he was going to tell Harry about the sword and how to go about destroying horcruxes after they took the locket. As far as Dumbledore's plans go, when he died he didn't have any plans other than the one regarding the Elder Wand. Dumbledore's genius was that he accurately predicted what was likely to happen and took pre-emptive action. He had no plan that would ensure Voldemort being defeated. It is true though that Dumbledore seemed to err on the side of giving too little information than too much. Perhaps he expected Harry to speak to his portrait ?

Dumbledore had the entire year to provide Harry with all the information and tools he needed. He knew from the start of that year that he was going to die and that was the reason why he decided to give Harry those "lessons" - his plan was for Harry to take over the quest to find and destroy the Horcruxes after his death and the purpose of those meetings was to prepare Harry for that task. That's why the lack of preparation stands out so much. He had all that time and he wasted it.

That's not to say that the memories he showed Harry were not important - they were. But there were weeks or even months between meetings. He should have set up weekly meetings because those memories were not all he needed to impart. He should have told him about the Horcruxes from the start and explained what they were as well as how to destroy them - which would have also helped Harry understand just why Slughorn's memory was so important. He should have given Harry the books about Horcruxes or explained the information in them. He should have been going over his own search and what locations he had eliminated - what locations he thought might be possible hiding places. He should have given Harry the sword - or at least told him about it so Harry would have known to take it with him after Dumbledore died. He should have told Harry about the items he wanted the trio to have and explained why - specifically, he should have explained that the Deluminator was something they could use to find each other if they were separated and how to use it for that purpose.

In regards to the quest itself, Dumbledore knew that the trio would be off on their own - that was why he told Aberforth what the mirror was and how it worked. But he neglected to mention that to Harry. I think Dumbledore knew that Sirius had given Harry his mirror - based on what Aberforth said - but he didn't know that Harry had broken it. Had he told Harry that Aberforth had the other mirror and could serve as a secure contact for him if he needed to contact the Order, Harry would have known that he would need the mirror that Sirius had given him. Dumbledore could probably have repaired the mirror using the Elder wand just like Harry repaired his wand. He could have set up a safe location for the trio to use as a base - making himself secret keeper and only sharing the secret with them so it would remain secure after his death.

On the night that he night, he had hours in which he could have given Harry more information. Harry told him before they left that Draco was celebrating in the Room of Requirement so Dumbledore knew that, whatever Draco was planning, it was probably going to happen that night. Yet he said nothing during their journey to the cave. Dumbledore gave Harry that quest and Harry accepted - it was Dumbledore's responsiblility to make sure that Harry had everything he needed, IMO.

Snape, I think, deserved to know that his life would be under risk at some point. I can only imagine that Dumbledore thought that Snape was better off not knowing that he'd end up on Voldemort's hit list. It would have been on Snape's mind every time Voldemort summoned him.

I agree and disagree. Snape did deserve to know that he was signing his own death warrant by killing Dumbledore. However, I can understand why Dumbledore didn't tell him. He saw the Elder wand as a dangerous temptation and he didn't want Snape to know about it because he was concerned that Snape would succumb to that temptation, IMO. That was also why he didn't tell Harry about it and hoped Hermione would slow him down in figuring it out.

And he had to consider the possibility that Snape would refuse if he knew it meant he would die, IMO. Snape had worked very hard to minimize the risk he was taking to the point where it was, essentially, nonexistent. Voldemort played into that because he gave the order for Snape to pretend to spy for Dumbledore and Snape took advantage of that - as Snape told Bellatrix in HBP, he was doing exactly what Voldemort had ordered him to do. I think Dumbledore realized that so I can see the reasoning behind his actions. It doesn't make it right, but that would be one of those tough decisions people have to make in war.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Academic interest in a wide variety of topics? yes. Knowing, intutitively or after years of study, that he could not destroy the wand? Maybe. Never trying if he didn't know difinitively? And oversight. And the simply fact is that we are never diffinitively told in canon that he didn't know that he could just break the wand in half.

There are a lot of things that happen off page though. For example, in GOF, Harry let FakeMoody borrow his Invisibility cloak. In OOTP, Harry had the cloak back in his possession. There was nothing presented on page about him retrieving the cloak, but obviously he did. We never saw anyone tell Harry that his parents lived in Godric's Hollow on page - or that they were buried there - but Harry knows this information at the end of HBP so, obviously, somebody told him about it off page. In Snape's memories, Harry sees Snape telling Dumbledore that he's trapped the curse in one hand, but it's temporary and he will die within the year. They never discuss the possibility of just cutting off his hand - which could be grown back if they didn't use Dark Magic to do so - and they don't attempt it so it would appear that they both knew that would not work even though Harry doesn't see them discuss it.

Dumbledore had the Elder wand in his possession for over 50 years. He had the cloak in his possession for 10 years. He had the stone for about a year. He tells Harry that he studied them - had been studying them long before he ever had them in his possession as well as examining them after he did. He considered the wand dangerous - by his own words he wanted to save others from it. That was his primary reason for keeping it and that was why he was trying to die undefeated to break its power - to save others from it.

For the objects themselves, we are shown that the cloak and the stone are, essentially, indestructable. The cloak is centuries old and in perfect condition. Cloth doesn't last for centuries - even artifacts that have been well cared for and preserved are extremely fragile and could crumble at the slightest touch. Dumbledore used the sword - impregnated with basilisk venom - on the ring and it only had a crack in it and still worked exactly as it was supposed to. In writing, you can't always give a point by point explanation in minute detail. That would be very boring to read. Sometimes you have to leave the clues for the reader to figure it out - like Harry going back to get his cloak out of FakeMoody's office or the Deathly Hallows being essentially indestructible magical objects of great power.

Characterization is part of that as well. Dumbledore and Hermione in particular are characters Jo characterized for the purpose of expediting exposition. When Hermione tells Harry a fact, the reader can be certain that she has read that fact in a book so she is probably right. Same for Dumbledore with the addition that his speculation has a high probability of being right because he is so intelligent, takes the time to understand people, and has had a lot of experience in his 115 years of living. By the same token if neither Hermione nor Dumbledore do or even suggest what appears to be a logical solution - i.e. destroying a dangerous wand - then it is most likely that it cannot be done because one of them would have done or suggested it if it could be done. You can't always explain everything in minute detail, but you can allude to it so the reader can figure it out.

Rather than calling that genius I'd call it knowing information no one else knows - specifically in relation to horcruxes and his suspicions that Harry was one. He knew the course of events because he knew that every battle between Voldemort and Harry meant that Voldemort would fail to kill Harry; Dumbledore knew what Voldemort would ultimately come after, the elder wand. he didn't for instance, know when Voldemort would begin his search for the horcrux or what tactics he would use to gain possession of it other than suspecting that the worst methods would be most likely. I don't think Dumbledore really predicted much. He knew what things were eventualities based on Voldemorts past MO, current activities and future desires and could plan his own moves accordingly.

I agree. Dumbledore explained this to Harry in OOTP as well. He took Harry to the Dursleys and used Petunia to seal his protective charm there because he was certain that Voldemort was not dead and would return one day. He didn't know when - it could have been a week or years in the future - but he was certain Voldemort would return one day and made his plans with that in mind.

The issue of the Elder wand fell along the same lines. I think Dumbledore likely had some concern about that from the moment Ollivander contacted him to inform him that the second phoenix wand had chosen Harry. He didn't act on it then, but it was something he was prepared for in that he knew what would happen if Voldemort and Harry ever dueled with those wands. When Harry told him what had happened in the graveyard, he wasn't shocked or suprised - he was expecting that and explained why it happened to Harry. That incident made him certain that Voldemort would go after the Elder wand at some point. He couldn't say when, but he was certain it would happen - just as he had been certain Voldemort would return - and made his plans accordingly.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Dumbledore had the entire year to provide Harry with all the information and tools he needed. He knew from the start of that year that he was going to die and that was the reason why he decided to give Harry those "lessons" - his plan was for Harry to take over the quest to find and destroy the Horcruxes after his death and the purpose of those meetings was to prepare Harry for that task. That's why the lack of preparation stands out so much. He had all that time and he wasted it.

I agree with all of this and everything else you say about Dumbledore failing to do what he should have done. But I think it's a fault with the actual plot, rather than JKR's actual intentions for his character. I'll say more below.

Dumbledore gave Harry that quest and Harry accepted - it was Dumbledore's responsiblility to make sure that Harry had everything he needed, IMO.

Absolutely. All this should have been set up in HBP, before Dumbledore died (because he knew he was going to die). And since, obviously, the author knew he was going to die, LOL, it would have made more sense if she had included a lot more about Dumbledore preparing Harry properly and adequately for the Horcrux hunt in HBP. That would have paved the way nicely for DH (which is an exciting story), without the reader wondering how Harry was ever going to find all those Horcruxes with so little crucial information. As we know, Harry does find them all, but it's all entirely through the magic of chance, not information from Dumbledore. And while I do see HP as a modern fairytale, there is a limit to how many deux ex machina an author can get away with.

I also see this as a separate issue from the other revelations about Dumbledore. Because one has to do with plot and the other with his character. I don't have a problem with Dumbledore turning out to be more complex and 'shaded' than readers had previously thought: it actually makes him far more interesting, and I think he is one of JKR's best-drawn characters because of it. Neither do I doubt that he genuinely loved Harry. But the lack of information given to Harry about the Horcruxes and the Hallows: that I regard as a structural fault with the actual plot, which impacts in a rather unfortunate way on Dumbledore's character. JMO.

By now it might be evident to some that I frequently take a Doyalist, rather than a Watsonian, POV, in HP-related discussions. By that I mean I often step outside the story, analysing how the author has structured her tale, as opposed to taking the POV of the actual character. And the Doyalist POV actually allows me to take Dumbledore off the hook! Because I don't think JKR intends him to come off looking incompetent or uncaring towards Harry. She could still have included all of Harry's growing doubts about Dumbledore's character (an important part of the DH narrative, resolved in King's Cross), whilst still formulating a better plan re: the Horcruxes.

I agree and disagree. Snape did deserve to know that he was signing his own death warrant by killing Dumbledore. However, I can understand why Dumbledore didn't tell him. He saw the Elder wand as a dangerous temptation and he didn't want Snape to know about it because he was concerned that Snape would succumb to that temptation, IMO.

I see no evidence in the text to suggest Dumbledore had any such concerns about Snape.

And he had to consider the possibility that Snape would refuse if he knew it meant he would die, IMO.

Again ... there is nothing whatsoever in canon to suggest this, IMO.

Snape had worked very hard to minimize the risk he was taking to the point where it was, essentially, nonexistent.

I strongly disagree but it’s a discussion for the Snape thread, not here.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I strongly disagree but it’s a discussion for the Snape thread, not here.

So does Dumbledore, which is on topic.

DH, TPT “No,” agreed Dumbledore. “You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon . . . ” "Do not think that I underestimate the constant danger in which you place yourself, Severus."

Because Dumbledore believed Snape was knowingly playing a deathly dangerous role for him already, I can see why he did not suppose Snape needed or expected to be warned that being close to Voldemort while following Dumbledore's orders (whichever ones) might lead to his murder.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Academic interest in a wide variety of topics? yes. Knowing, intutitively or after years of study, that he could not destroy the wand? Maybe. Never trying if he didn't know difinitively? And oversight. And the simply fact is that we are never diffinitively told in canon that he didn't know that he could just break the wand in half.

Dumbledore in the books has always been someone who thought of everything. Based on that, it would definitely have occurred to him to destroy the wand. The first option that comes to mind when thinking of ways to destroy a wand is snapping it. If we could come up with that, Dumbledore most certainly could.

I stand corrected about the animagi part of my last post and to make it clear I was being flippant when I said James promptly died after loaning it to Dumbledore. I don't think the conversation between them happened that afternoon. Maybe a month before they died.

Yes, which was more than enough time for Dumbledore to return it if he was just interested in seeing it.

We're privy to the important ones, though, and I can't imagine that if they did discuss destroying the wand at any point that it wouldn't have been included in the book. To say Hermione 'knew from school' that ancient artifacts such as the EW couldn't be destroyed is knowledge by omission which doesn't sit right with me or Hermione's character. If she knew something as important as that she'd make sure everyone else knew she knew it - always puts her hand up in class, she always has the right answer and about destroying the wand she is silent.

We have evidence of other objects being close to indestructible. Why should the Wand being considered a special case here ? Hermione is also characterized as someone who knew everything and thinks of all possibilities. Why should her silence here be construed as "forgetting" rather than the possibility that she already knew it can't be easily destroyed ?

Dumbledore, too, is silent on this topic when he's baring all in DH, King's Cross. He goes to painstaking lengths to explain his motivations, why he did what he did, why he didn't tell Harry certain things, but never ever does he say "I won the wand and wanted to destroy it then and there but I knew it's magical protection was too strong..." or "I spent years trying to think of a way to destroy it but try as I might I couldn't even make a scratch on its surface."

Nothing. Nadda. Not even a whisper of desire to destroy the wand is on page. Therefore, based on canon evidence and not supposition about off-camera motivations of characters, I can only conclude that Dumbledore never thought about or tried to destroy the wand.

I don't think Dumbledore went to any great lengths to destroy it. However, that doesn't mean he never thought about it. That goes against everything we read about Dumbledore.

I guess my biggest problem with this point (the destruction of the wand) is that nothing was included in the books, that there wasn't even a silly line by Harry off-handedly suggesting that they just snap it in two if they ever laid their hands on it, that Hermione never spoke up one way or the other about its indestructability (and she would have, we know enough about her character to know that much!), that Dumbledore never made a confession to Harry that he tried and failed over and over to destroy it.

This, to me, is the biggest indication that it couldn't be destroyed easily. One person could forget and not consider the possibility, but all of them ?

Also, before they break into Gringotts, when Harry learns that Hermione had Bellatrix's wand, he specifically thought about snapping it and even slicing it with the Sword. So Harry was well aware of the possibility and this happened about 24 hours before Voldemort was killed.

Giving another's wand a great deal of respect and being able to break their wand in half are not mutually exclusive. I would say because you respect someone you wouldn't break their wand just like I'd say if you didn't respect someone it would mean very little to you if you broke their wand.

Personally, and without canon evidence to support this theory, I think if an Order member came upon a DE and defeated them they wouldn't snap the DE's wand. But if a DE defeated an Order member they'd snap the order member's wand in a heart beat as a way to bring them down even further.

We do have one specific example of this. At Malfoy Manor, they take the wands from the trio but they don't destroy it. Just "Draco, pick it up".

I agree that nothing stopped someone from destroying wands but it seems to be something that is deep rooted in wizards/witches.

Rather than calling that genius I'd call it knowing information no one else knows - specifically in relation to horcruxes and his suspicions that Harry was one. He knew the course of events because he knew that every battle between Voldemort and Harry meant that Voldemort would fail to kill Harry; Dumbledore knew what Voldemort would ultimately come after, the elder wand. he didn't for instance, know when Voldemort would begin his search for the horcrux or what tactics he would use to gain possession of it other than suspecting that the worst methods would be most likely. I don't think Dumbledore really predicted much. He knew what things were eventualities based on Voldemorts past MO, current activities and future desires and could plan his own moves accordingly.

Well, he made accurate guesses about future events based on his knowledge and understanding. Sounds like prediction to me.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

There are a lot of things that happen off page though. For example, in GOF, Harry let FakeMoody borrow his Invisibility cloak. In OOTP, Harry had the cloak back in his possession. There was nothing presented on page about him retrieving the cloak, but obviously he did. We never saw anyone tell Harry that his parents lived in Godric's Hollow on page - or that they were buried there - but Harry knows this information at the end of HBP so, obviously, somebody told him about it off page. In Snape's memories, Harry sees Snape telling Dumbledore that he's trapped the curse in one hand, but it's temporary and he will die within the year. They never discuss the possibility of just cutting off his hand - which could be grown back if they didn't use Dark Magic to do so - and they don't attempt it so it would appear that they both knew that would not work even though Harry doesn't see them discuss it.

In the case of Harry retrieving his cloak from FakeMoody and the lack of evidence of Harry being told where his parents lived I think it's very convenient to attribute these things to having happened 'off page' when in reality I think it was JKR's plotholes that created those situations. She wasn't managing her magical items correctly and so ended GOF with FakeMoody still in possession of the cloak. She herself knew so much about Harry's past and had mentioned Godric's Hollow several times throughout the series that she forgot to include someone mentioning this to Harry.

The best example you give here is Snape's memory of Dumbledore. The other two I would write off as plotholes or inconsistencies on the part of the author and we must assume that the retrival of the cloak and the telling of Harry where his parents lived happened off page.

In the Snape/DD example all I can say is that it differs from Dumbledore's not having destroyed the wand in one big way: It's is a memory that we readers are plopped into mid-Whereas in the case of Dumbledore and the Elder Wand, there is that fiddly chapter called King's Cross where Dumbledore goes and explains everything to Harry - that he had desired the wand as a young man, how he came to wear the Gaunt ring and thus curse himself, that he suddenly found himself in possession of all three hallows. If ever there was a time to tell Harry he tried to destroy the wand or not it was in this chapter and it never came up.

Futhermore, and dragging up my older posts' assertions, Dumbledore admits to Snape when asked why he put the ring on:

DH, The Prince's Tale "Why," said Snape without preamble, "Why did you put on that ring? It carries a curse, surely you realize that. Why even touch it?" Marvolo Gaunt's ring lay on the desk before Dumbledore. It was cracked. The sword of Gryffindor lay beside it. Dumbledore grimmaced. "I was a fool. Sorely tempted." "Tempted by what?" Dumbledore didn't answer.

Dumbledore proves here that even as an older wiser man he was still tempted by the ring. I think, too, that he was tempted into keeping the Elder Wand rather than destroy it to, as he asserts, "save others from it."

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I agree with all of this and everything else you say about Dumbledore failing to do what he should have done. But I think it's a fault with the actual plot, rather than JKR's actual intentions for his character. I'll say more below.



Absolutely. All this should have been set up in HBP, before Dumbledore died (because he knew he was going to die). And since, obviously, the author knew he was going to die, LOL, it would have made more sense if she had included a lot more about Dumbledore preparing Harry properly and adequately for the Horcrux hunt in HBP. That would have paved the way nicely for DH (which is an exciting story), without the reader wondering how Harry was ever going to find all those Horcruxes with so little crucial information. As we know, Harry does find them all, but it's all entirely through the magic of chance, not information from Dumbledore. And while I do see HP as a modern fairytale, there is a limit to how many deux ex machina an author can get away with.

I also see this as a separate issue from the other revelations about Dumbledore. Because one has to do with plot and the other with his character. I don't have a problem with Dumbledore turning out to be more complex and 'shaded' than readers had previously thought: it actually makes him far more interesting, and I think he is one of JKR's best-drawn characters because of it. Neither do I doubt that he genuinely loved Harry. But the lack of information given to Harry about the Horcruxes and the Hallows: that I regard as a structural fault with the actual plot, which impacts in a rather unfortunate way on Dumbledore's character. JMO.

By now it might be evident to some that I frequently take a Doyalist, rather than a Watsonian, POV, in HP-related discussions. By that I mean I often step outside the story, analysing how the author has structured her tale, as opposed to taking the POV of the actual character. And the Doyalist POV actually allows me to take Dumbledore off the hook! Because I don't think JKR intends him to come off looking incompetent or uncaring towards Harry. She could still have included all of Harry's growing doubts about Dumbledore's character (an important part of the DH narrative, resolved in King's Cross), whilst still formulating a better plan re: the Horcruxes.

We are in complete agreement on this - which is always a nice change.

For me, it is the inconsistency in the characterization and the coinciding, poorly constructed plot points that was disappointing. It's not the backstory with Grindelwald - I actually enjoyed that quite a bit and consider it well constructed overall. It's not even the revelation that Dumbledore was manipulating and using people in his plans and schemes - not entirely. They were at war and tough decisions had to be made so much of that was undertandable. What disappointed me most were the plot points that were so poorly constructed that Dumbledore came across as foolish with his plans relying almost entirely on chance and luck.

I remember Jo making a comment in an interview prior to DH regarding how she had written herself into corners - or boxed herself in - with some aspects of the story and had to find a way out of those boxes. I think the Horcrux quest is one of those times that she boxed herself in. I don't think she really thought it through completely while she was writing HBP. She had Dumbledore give Harry the basics before he died, but it doesn't seem like she thought ahead to how Harry would find out the rest of the information after Dumbledore was gone.

In previous books, Hermione was sufficient to fill in such blanks because they were dealing with things they could look up in the library - or ask others about in some cases. The Horcruxes didn't fit into that pattern because there wasn't anything in the library about them and Dumbledore had sworn Harry to secrecy so he wasn't willing to ask anyone. Hermione could not fill in the blanks because she didn't know any more about them than Harry did. I found it odd - and still do - that Jo chose a quick fix involving Hermione instead of the more logical solution involving Dumbledore leaving Harry the information he needed. It was Dumbledore who assigned the task after all - why wouldn't he do everything he could to ensure Harry had what he needed to succeed? Why not have Fawkes deliver a letter - or even a package - to Harry as his final service to Dumbledore? A journal, notes, books - Dumbledore could have left Harry any number of resources to help him. If not Fawkes, why not have Dumbledore leave what Harry needed at Privet Dr.? That was the one place Dumbledore knew Harry would go that was completely secure. There were various ways that Jo could have written that to demonstrate that Dumbledore had thought it through and took steps to ensure Harry would get the information he needed. For that matter, Jo could have connected Dumbledore to Hermione's action by simply having her tell the boys that, when she returned to her room after the funeral, she found a note with a golden feather (i.e. the letter Fawkes delivered in OOTP) instructing her to summon those books. However it was done, it should have come from Dumbledore in some way, IMO.

I see no evidence in the text to suggest Dumbledore had any such concerns about Snape.

Actually, when it came to the Hallows, I think Dumbledore had such concerns about everyone. That's what he saw as most dangerous about the Hallows - the temptation they presented. He was even concerned about Harry succumbing to that temptation - and he was at least partally right because Harry did get obsessed with them for a while. Dumbledore had other concerns with Snape as well. He was reluctant to allow Snape to teach DADA because he was concerned that even that peripheral involvement with the Dark Arts would tempt Snape to return to his "old ways". He chose to withhold quite a bit of information from Snape because he was concerned about the time Snape spent with Voldemort - doing so on Dumbledore's orders did not remove the risk of Voldemort finding out information Dumbledore did not want him to have.

What we learn about Dumbledore in DH is that he was much more pragmatic than he appeared to be on the surface. He gave a lot of lip service about trust, but his actions reveal that he didn't really trust anyone completely - not even Harry. I think his experience with Grindelwald caused him to have major trust issues. We learn that he did care about the individual, but when it came down to it, he would put "the greater good" first - or as Spock would say, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Again ... there is nothing whatsoever in canon to suggest this, IMO.

Honestly, I can't see anyone agreeing to that plan if they knew up front that it would result in Voldemort killing them personally. It's one thing to accept risk - particularly in a situation where you believe you can control or minimize that risk. It's quite another to know without doubt that a specific action will cause you to be murdered needlessly, IMO.

I strongly disagree but it?s a discussion for the Snape thread, not here.

From Dumbledore's perspective, I think the text demonstrates that Dumbledore understood that. It was revealed that Dumbledore knew from the start that Voldemort had ordered Snape to gain Dumbledore's trust by agreeing to spy for him so he could spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Dumbledore uses that to his advantage - using Snape's anger and resentment towards Voldemort for killing Lily to convince him to really spy on Voldemort. I also think Dumbledore was smart enough to understand that this minimized the risk involved for Snape because Snape was still doing exactly what Voldemort ordered him to do. I think Dumbledore saw that as beneficial while he was alive.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

In the case of Harry retrieving his cloak from FakeMoody and the lack of evidence of Harry being told where his parents lived I think it's very convenient to attribute these things to having happened 'off page' when in reality I think it was JKR's plotholes that created those situations. She wasn't managing her magical items correctly and so ended GOF with FakeMoody still in possession of the cloak. She herself knew so much about Harry's past and had mentioned Godric's Hollow several times throughout the series that she forgot to include someone mentioning this to Harry.

The best example you give here is Snape's memory of Dumbledore. The other two I would write off as plotholes or inconsistencies on the part of the author and we must assume that the retrival of the cloak and the telling of Harry where his parents lived happened off page.

In the Snape/DD example all I can say is that it differs from Dumbledore's not having destroyed the wand in one big way: It's is a memory that we readers are plopped into mid-Whereas in the case of Dumbledore and the Elder Wand, there is that fiddly chapter called King's Cross where Dumbledore goes and explains everything to Harry - that he had desired the wand as a young man, how he came to wear the Gaunt ring and thus curse himself, that he suddenly found himself in possession of all three hallows. If ever there was a time to tell Harry he tried to destroy the wand or not it was in this chapter and it never came up.

A plot hole either has no viable explanation or it contradicts a previous explanation presented - that's what makes it a plot hole. Things like Harry retrieving his cloak or learning where his parents lived off page are self explanatory and there was no contradiction so they are not plot holes. It would have been redundant exposition that would have been disruptive to the narrative flow. There are many things that occur off page that are self explanatory. From the mundane, daily activities like using the bathroom, bathing, going to class, etc... to situations where it was not possible to include Harry like Order meetings, Death Eater activities, what his friends were doing while he was in detention, etc... It's not always possible to include every single detail on page - nor would it be wise because it could become very dry and dull so the story would not be as interesting to the reader. And a day by day accounting of everything Harry did and saw 24/7 would have made for some extremely long, boring books.

Exposition is tricky. Too little can raise questions and potentially create plot holes. Too much can bog down the story, disrupt the narrative flow, and make the story very boring. Dumbledore's explanation focuses on what Harry needs to know and is balanced so it does not disrupt the narrative flow. It would have been redundant to have Dumbledore go into minute detail about what he did with the Elder wand because his plan makes it self explanatory. His determination to break the power of the wand by dying undefeated demonstrates that there was no way to destroy the wand and breaking its power was tantamount to destroying it because it would be useless. Added to that is the fact that neither Harry nor Hermone - who both considered the wand dangerous - ever considered suggesting that. It was not necessary to have exposition explaining why they didn't destroy the wand because, if it had been possible, they would have done so. Like Harry retrieving his cloak and learning where his parents lived, this is self explanatory, IMO.

Futhermore, and dragging up my older posts' assertions, Dumbledore admits to Snape when asked why he put the ring on:



Dumbledore proves here that even as an older wiser man he was still tempted by the ring. I think, too, that he was tempted into keeping the Elder Wand rather than destroy it to, as he asserts, "save others from it."

Dumbledore also explains what his temptation was to Harry in Kings Cross - more significantly, he explains that the temptation had changed for him. In Dumbledore's youth, the Hallows represented power - he and Grindelwald imagined themselves becoming "invincible Masters of Death" by finding all three Hallows. Yet, even then, they each had different ideas and goals. The wand was power - an unbeatable wand to help them achieve victory. For Grindelwald, that victory was simply world domination. For Dumbledore, it really was about "the greater good". He convinced himself that what they were doing would be beneficial for the wizarding world - more to the point, it would be beneficial for his sister because they wouldn't have to hide her anymore.

Grindelwald saw the stone as a means to raise an army of inferi to aid in his quest for world domination. Dumbledore saw the stone as a means to bring back his parents - to lift the responsibility from his shoulders so he could go with Grindelwald without havnig to worry about his sister. For Grindelwald, it meant dominance - or a means to achieve that. For Dumbledore, it meant freedom.

At 115, all of that had changed for Dumbledore. He no longer believed that the Hallows would make someone invincible. He had learned the hard way that world domination was not about the greater good, but rather about one wizard attempting to subjugate others. He knew that the Elder wand was not actually unbeatable and that the stone did not actually bring people back from the dead. He was older and wiser because he learned from his mistakes regarding the Hallows.

Dumbledore took the wand from Grindelwald and kept it to save others from it. He had come to realize that it was dangerous and accepted that he was only worthy to tame it by not bragging about having it and protecting others from it. The wand was no longer a temptation for Dumbledore, but rather, an obligation. A duty he took upon himself to protect others. I think he saw breaking its power as part of that duty - keeping it and maintaining his mastery over it by dying undefeated would fulfill his obligation because nobody would ever be able to master the Elder wand after his death - as such, everyone would be protected from it for eternity.

The stone tempted him, but not as it had in his youth. He had come to realize that it would not actually bring the dead back. Dumbledore was tempted by the stone as a means to achieve closure. A means to call his parents and sister back so he could apologize to them for what he had done. A means to make himself feel better and ease his guilt. Dumbledore also acknowledged that this was selfish of him.

Still, this was a huge change that demonstrated lessons learned. In his youth, Dumbledore had not seen much value in the cloak because he could cast such a powerful Disillusionment charm - he didn't really need an Invisibility cloak. At that time, he and Grindelwald primarily wanted it to complete the set and thought it might be useful for hiding Ariana. In his old age, Dumbledore had come to realize that the cloak was the most valuable of the Hallows because it could be used to protect others as well as its owner. He had learned that it was more noble to protect and save others than it was to try to dominate them. Had it been possible to destroy the Elder wand, that's what Dumbledore would have done because he saw it as dangerous and wanted to protect others from it. I think the fact that he was so determined to break its power by dying undefeated demonstrates that this was the only means to destroy it - rendering it useless.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Dumbledore proves here that even as an older wiser man he was still tempted by the ring. I think, too, that he was tempted into keeping the Elder Wand rather than destroy it to, as he asserts, "save others from it."

To me this makes sense from the defeat of Grindelwald through to the start of HBP. (Though, I really do not think that for him the temptatoin of the Ring at this point was about power - I think it had the same pull on him as *** Mirror of Erised had on Harry). But in HBP, he has the better part of a year in which he knew he was going to die. If the wand could simly be snapped in two, I think he would have done it then. But his silence on this possibility continues even past his death.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by ignisia

Regarding the possible destruction of the wand, I think if Dumbledore knew of any way to destroy the wand or render it useless, he would do that. And, IMO, that's what his plan ultimately does, using the wand's own cycle of death and power to weaken it.

Dumbledore could have easily hidden the wand where it would never have been found. He spent years tracking down Voldemort’s horcruxes and found one because it was hidden in a place significant to Voldemort. Dumbledore could have selected someplace completely random and no one would have ever found it. So why keep it unless he had a reason to do so?

Originally Posted by arithmancer

That is not, apparently, Harry's opinion. He states that Dumbledore's having planned his death with Snape, an ally, would matter.

It’s also Harry’s opinion that Dumbledore’s last plan was to make Snape the true master of the Elder Wand and that that plan failed (he agrees with Voldemort on that point.) And Dumbledore admits to Harry that he intended that Snape end up with the wand. Why have Snape in possession of the Elder Wand, if he wasn’t master of it? That has never made sense to me and I’ve not heard an adequate explanation to change my mind. But it does make sense if Dumbledore wanted Snape master of the Elder Wand as a back up if Harry died. Dumbledore always had a reason for what he did.

What is so confusing are the statements Harry makes to Voldmort after he urges him to try for some remorse. These statements seem connected to each other, since they are side by side, and we tend to read them as: Snape never beat Dumbledore (because) Dumbledore’s death was planned between them (and) Dumbledore intended to die undefeated, the wand’s last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand’s power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him.

I used to read them this way as well. But now it seems to me that these statements are not connected narrative but are simple statements of fact while under pressure and the following fits better with the overall plot: Snape never beat Dumbledore! (Because Draco got there first.) Dumbledore's death was planned between them! (Snape was the intended master of the wand.) Dumbledore intended to die undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him! (That was his plan when he first won the wand, before he was forced onto a different path.)

My reasoning as to why Dumbledore’s planned death would win Snape the Elder Wand was posted here.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

Presumably, he means that if someone seized the wand from Dumbledore's tomb after Harry's death, it would not work, because the previous master (Harry, at that point) will never have been defeated.

Okay–that makes more sense. Well, except that whoever took the wand from Harry’s grave would not technically be it’s master.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Quote:
Dumbledore gave Harry that quest and Harry accepted - it was Dumbledore's responsiblility to make sure that Harry had everything he needed, IMO.

Absolutely. All this should have been set up in HBP, before Dumbledore died (because he knew he was going to die). And since, obviously, the author knew he was going to die, LOL, it would have made more sense if she had included a lot more about Dumbledore preparing Harry properly and adequately for the Horcrux hunt in HBP. That would have paved the way nicely for DH (which is an exciting story), without the reader wondering how Harry was ever going to find all those Horcruxes with so little crucial information. As we know, Harry does find them all, but it's all entirely through the magic of chance, not information from Dumbledore. And while I do see HP as a modern fairytale, there is a limit to how many deux ex machina an author can get away with.

Dumbledore was in the process of giving Harry all that Dumbledore knew about horcruxes, but Draco’s attack came sooner than he expected. Snape had to kill Dumbledore at that point or he would have died from breaking his vow with Narcissa. But there wasn’t much more that he needed to tell Harry because Dumbledore didn’t have any more information himself. The Trio considered that finding them all might take years (NOT a story I would want to read.) From what I can recall the only thing left to chance was Harry happening upon Snape as he was dying. Every other element of the story was planned well in advance of it’s use in assisting Harry to find the horcruxes. Nothing was suddenly plopped down into the middle of the story in order to solve a problem and, in particular, to resolve the crisis (like the bucket of water in Wizard of Oz.) I’m sure my perceived errors will be pointed out in short order. Please include references.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

In previous books, Hermione was sufficient to fill in such blanks because they were dealing with things they could look up in the library - or ask others about in some cases. The Horcruxes didn't fit into that pattern because there wasn't anything in the library about them and Dumbledore had sworn Harry to secrecy so he wasn't willing to ask anyone. Hermione could not fill in the blanks because she didn't know any more about them than Harry did. I found it odd - and still do - that Jo chose a quick fix involving Hermione instead of the more logical solution involving Dumbledore leaving Harry the information he needed. It was Dumbledore who assigned the task after all - why wouldn't he do everything he could to ensure Harry had what he needed to succeed? Why not have Fawkes deliver a letter - or even a package - to Harry as his final service to Dumbledore? A journal, notes, books - Dumbledore could have left Harry any number of resources to help him. If not Fawkes, why not have Dumbledore leave what Harry needed at Privet Dr.? That was the one place Dumbledore knew Harry would go that was completely secure. There were various ways that Jo could have written that to demonstrate that Dumbledore had thought it through and took steps to ensure Harry would get the information he needed. For that matter, Jo could have connected Dumbledore to Hermione's action by simply having her tell the boys that, when she returned to her room after the funeral, she found a note with a golden feather (i.e. the letter Fawkes delivered in OOTP) instructing her to summon those books. However it was done, it should have come from Dumbledore in some way, IMO.

The horcrux books tell the Trio nothing about horcruxes that they don’t already know. But it serves to refresh the reader’s knowledge about them and then it adds one new snippet that tells us something that is important about Snape's story: while killing rips the soul apart, it can be put back together through remorse; though that remorse is so excruciatingly painful that it can destroy the one repenting.

Dumbledore did leave them more information–in his will. If the Trio had explored a bit further as to why Dumbledore left Harry–the one charged with destroying the horcruxes–the Sword of Gryffindor, they would have eventually figured out it was to destroy horcruxes with. Even if they hadn’t figured it out by chance beforehand, having the Sword mysteriously delivered to them by an unknown benefactor should have clued them in that it was important to their mission. That’s all they needed and Dumbledore provided it. It just didn't feel like it was sufficient.

Also–Dumbledore had already given Harry all the information he had gathered about the horcruxes to that point. There was no more intel he could have passed along.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Dumbledore had other concerns with Snape as well. He was reluctant to allow Snape to teach DADA because he was concerned that even that peripheral involvement with the Dark Arts would tempt Snape to return to his "old ways". He chose to withhold quite a bit of information from Snape because he was concerned about the time Snape spent with Voldemort - doing so on Dumbledore's orders did not remove the risk of Voldemort finding out information Dumbledore did not want him to have.

I don’t believe Dumbledore had any concerns about Snape having the DADA job. Dumbledore knew the position was cursed–no DADA professor served more than a year after Riddle applied for the job–and Dumbledore needed Snape by his side for all those years prior. When he did appoint Snape he knew he had “maybe a year” to live. If Dumbledore was concerned in the least about Snape reverting to his old ways, the last year leading up to the fulfillment of all his plans would be the worst time to indulge a possible relapse. Although Dumbledore said he was concerned about what Snape knew possibly being exposed to Voldemort, he gives Snape the most damaging piece of information of all–there is a piece of Voldemort’s soul attached to Harry’s soul. Snape doesn’t know precisely what that means, but Voldemort certainly would have.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

(Though, I really do not think that for him the temptatoin of the Ring at this point was about power - I think it had the same pull on him as *** Mirror of Erised had on Harry).

Wholeheartedly agree. It wasn't about power. It was about seeing Ariana again. It was all about love.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Dumbledore could have easily hidden the wand where it would never have been found. He spent years tracking down Voldemort?s horcruxes and found one because it was hidden in a place significant to Voldemort. Dumbledore could have selected someplace completely random and no one would have ever found it. So why keep it unless he had a reason to do so?

Because Dumbledore was smart enough to know that anything that is hidden can be found - as was proven with Voldemort's Horcruxes. In spite of all that effort to hide them and keep them a secret, they were found and systematically destroyed by Regulus, Dumbledore, and Harry. Hiding the Elder Wand was, by no means, a guaranteed method to protect others from it because there were always wizards looking for it - whether they were fanatics like Xenophilius looking for the Hallows or Dark Wizards just attempting to track down a powerful wand using historical references to the Elder Wand, Deathstick, and/or Wand of Destiny. Keeping it, not using it for harm, and dying undefeated to break its power was a more logical plan because it gave Dumbledore more control over the outcome than merely hiding it would have.

It?s also Harry?s opinion that Dumbledore?s last plan was to make Snape the true master of the Elder Wand and that that plan failed (he agrees with Voldemort on that point.) And Dumbledore admits to Harry that he intended that Snape end up with the wand. Why have Snape in possession of the Elder Wand, if he wasn?t master of it? That has never made sense to me and I?ve not heard an adequate explanation to change my mind. But it does make sense if Dumbledore wanted Snape master of the Elder Wand as a back up if Harry died. Dumbledore always had a reason for what he did.

No, Harry's opinion - which Dumbledore confirmed - was that Dumbledore intended for Snape to have possession of the wand. At no point did Harry or Dumbledore ever state that Snape was supposed to be master of the wand - Harry said "end up with" and that is an entirely different thing. As was explained on page, possession is not enough. Having the wand in his possession would not make Snape the master because he did not take it by force - against Dumbledore's will. Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him and allowed that to happen so the Elder Wand would never have considered Snape its master.

Snape having possession of the wand would have been part of the plan to make Voldemort believe that Snape was master of the wand even though he wasn't. Had Snape taken the wand after killing Dumbledore, when Voldemort tracked it down, he would have killed Snape and taken the wand from him. Since Snape didn't have the wand in his possession, Voldemort took it from Dumbledore's grave, but still fell for the trick and killed Snape because he believed Snape was the master of the Elder Wand. Tricking Voldemort into thinking Snape was the master of the wand was the whole point - and that aspect of the plan did work.

What is so confusing are the statements Harry makes to Voldmort after he urges him to try for some remorse. These statements seem connected to each other, since they are side by side, and we tend to read them as: Snape never beat Dumbledore (because) Dumbledore?s death was planned between them (and) Dumbledore intended to die undefeated, the wand?s last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand?s power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him.

I used to read them this way as well. But now it seems to me that these statements are not connected narrative but are simple statements of fact while under pressure and the following fits better with the overall plot: Snape never beat Dumbledore! (Because Draco got there first.) Dumbledore's death was planned between them! (Snape was the intended master of the wand.) Dumbledore intended to die undefeated, the wand's last true master! If all had gone as planned, the wand's power would have died with him, because it had never been won from him! (That was his plan when he first won the wand, before he was forced onto a different path.)

There is nothing confusing about Harry's statements on page - they are completely consistent with what Ollivander explained to him about how a wand transfers allegiance and Dumbledore's explanations in Kings Cross, IMO. Snape did not defeat Dumbledore because Dumbledore allowed Snape to kill him - he planned his own death and gave Snape permission to do that. As such, Snape did not take the wand by force and the Elder Wand would never have recognized him as its master because it was not taken by force.

Dumbledore intended to die undefeated - doing so would prevent anyone from ever being able to master the wand after his death. That includes Snape because Snape did not - and could not - defeat Dumbledore because Dumbledore wanted and allowed that to happen.

Okay?that makes more sense. Well, except that whoever took the wand from Harry?s grave would not technically be it?s master.

Taking the wand from anyone's grave would not make them its master. Possession is not enough - you have to take the wand by force. That's true for stealing the wand in secret as well - which is why Grindelwald waited for Gregorovitch to try to stop him from taking the wand and stunned him. It has to be taken by force - against the wizard's will - in order for the wand to choose you as its master.

Dumbledore was in the process of giving Harry all that Dumbledore knew about horcruxes, but Draco?s attack came sooner than he expected. Snape had to kill Dumbledore at that point or he would have died from breaking his vow with Narcissa. But there wasn?t much more that he needed to tell Harry because Dumbledore didn?t have any more information himself. The Trio considered that finding them all might take years (NOT a story I would want to read.) From what I can recall the only thing left to chance was Harry happening upon Snape as he was dying. Every other element of the story was planned well in advance of it?s use in assisting Harry to find the horcruxes. Nothing was suddenly plopped down into the middle of the story in order to solve a problem and, in particular, to resolve the crisis (like the bucket of water in Wizard of Oz.) I?m sure my perceived errors will be pointed out in short order. Please include references.

Dumbledore was in the process of giving Harry information. However, he wasted a lot of time that year and could have given Harry much more information than he did - information that he did have and either chose not to share it intentionally or because he ran out of time due to wasting so much time that year. There were weeks and months between his sessions with Harry. He could have been meeting with Harry every week and been able to tell him a lot more than he did.

Dumbledore told Harry the basics of what a Horcrux was - in terms of what it was supposed to do and how it worked. He also told him that nobody - prior to Voldemort - had ever made more than a single Horcrux. What he did not tell Harry - the vital information that Harry needed to know - was how to destroy a Horcrux. Nor did he tell him that Gryffindor's sword could be used for that purpose because Harry had used it to kill the basilisk - imbibing it with basilisk venom - or that the had used the sword to destroy the ring.

Dumbledore told Harry that he had been looking for the Horcruxes himself and had found and destroyed the ring. He also promised Harry could go with him to get the next one he found. However, he did not go over the details of his search with Harry - locations he had searched and eliminated, locations he thought might be likely, etc...

Dumbledore did not tell Harry that Aberforth had the other mirror and could be a contact using the mirror that Sirius gave Harry. I doubt Dumbledore knew that Harry had broken his mirror. Had he discussed this with Harry, then Harry could have told him the mirror was broken - enabling Dumbledore repair it with the Elder Wand or come up with an alternative means for Harry to have a secure means of communication.

Dumbledore did not tell Harry anything about the Deathly Hallows or his plans for the Elder Wand. That was intentional - he admitted to this and apologized for it in Kings Cross. He did not trust Harry in regards to the Hallows and was concerned that Harry would succumb to the temptation they presented - as he had in his youth. He did want Harry to find out - specifically that Voldemort would be looking for the Elder Wand and figure out that it would not work for Voldemort because he died undefeated (his plan at the time), but he was afraid to tell Harry about this because he was worried that Harry would succumb to the temptation. That's why he left the book of fairy tales to Hermione - he believed Hermione would slow Harry up regarding the Hallows. He also wanted Harry to be able to figure out that the resurrection stone was hidden in the snitch, but not to be able to use it until it was time for him to die. That's why he enchanted the snitch so it would not open until Harry said that he was going to die.

Dumbledore did not tell Harry about the Deluminator - or leave Ron any information about it or instructions on how to use it. He wanted Ron to have it because it could be used as a means for them to find each other if they were ever separated. But he did not explain that to any of them or tell them how they could activate that function of the Deluminator.

Dumbledore also hindered Snape's ability to be able to complete the tasks given him by ensuring that Harry would not trust Snape at all. He knew what was going to happen that night - especially after he saw the Dark Mark. He knew Harry was going to witness Snape murder him and believe that Snape had betrayed him and the Order. He knew that Harry would believe that Snape had been loyal to Voldemort all along. He did nothing to circumvent that or let Harry know that Snape could be trusted. The odds were against Snape being able to tell Harry anything and have Harry believe him. Dumbledore knew that when he died so his portrait would have known that as well. It was pure luck that Harry even looked at Snape's memories - and still not quite believable that he didn't question anything after Dumbledore had told him how memories could be altered convincingly - i.e. Riddle framing Morfin. If there was any kind of backup plan in place, it would have been an alternative means for Harry to find out that he had to die in the event that Snape could not tell him - or Harry did not believe him.

There are no references to these things in HBP because Dumbledore did not give that information to Harry in HBP. Those things were revealed in DH - mostly through Harry being in the right place in the right time and having information just fall into his lap without any involvement from Dumbledore at all.

The horcrux books tell the Trio nothing about horcruxes that they don?t already know. But it serves to refresh the reader?s knowledge about them and then it adds one new snippet that tells us something that is important about Snape's story: while killing rips the soul apart, it can be put back together through remorse; though that remorse is so excruciatingly painful that it can destroy the one repenting.

The Horcrux books revealed how to destroy a Horcurx - Dumbledore never told Harry that information. They also revealed how a Horcrux was made - which Hermione did not explain in detail on page because it was so revolting. Jo said she described the process to her editor once and it made them want to vomit so she opted not to explain it in detail on page. They also revealed how the damage inflicted could be reversed - remorse heals the soul - but that it would be very painful for someone who had made a Horcrux and could kill them - a certainty for Voldemort after intentionally splitting his soul into seven pieces (eight unintentionally). Again, Dumbledore never told Harry any of this information. He only gave Harry the basics of what a Horcrux was in the context of how it worked.

Dumbledore did leave them more information?in his will. If the Trio had explored a bit further as to why Dumbledore left Harry?the one charged with destroying the horcruxes?the Sword of Gryffindor, they would have eventually figured out it was to destroy horcruxes with. Even if they hadn?t figured it out by chance beforehand, having the Sword mysteriously delivered to them by an unknown benefactor should have clued them in that it was important to their mission. That?s all they needed and Dumbledore provided it. It just didn't feel like it was sufficient.

Dumbledore did not leave any information for the trio in his will. He left them objects with no explanation as to why, what he wanted them to do with those things, no instructions on how to use them, and no means for them to find out. They found out about the sword through pure chance - they just happened to be in the right place at the right time to hear Griphook tell Ted Tonks about Ginny, Neville, and Luna attempting to steal the sword - which prompted them to ask Phineas Nigellis about it and learn that Goblin made armor imbibes that which strengthens it - enabling them to figure out the sword could be used to destroy a Horcrux. Had they not been in that location at that time to overhear Griphook, they would not have asked Phineas about the sword, and they would never have figured that out. Dumbledore did not leave them any information or provide any means for them to be able to do so.

The same was true for all those things. Hermione figured out the symbol in the book because Harry just happened to see the same symbol on the necklace Xenophlius wore to the wedding - which Dumbledore could not have known or predicted would happen. They would never have known what that symbol meant or learned anything about the Deathly Hallows if Harry had not noticed that necklace. In which case, Harry would never have figured out that Voldemort was looking for the Elder Wand or why and he would not have figured out the resurrection stone was hidden in the snitch - or how to open it because knowing the stone was inside it was a significant factor in that. Ron figured out that the deluminator could help him find Harry and Hermione completely by accident - and never did figure out exactly how he activated that function so he might not have been able to do so again if they were ever separated again. Dumbledore did not leave them any information that would help them figure these things out - nor did he provide the means for them to find any such information. They figured it out only through pure luck and chance.

Also?Dumbledore had already given Harry all the information he had gathered about the horcruxes to that point. There was no more intel he could have passed along.

Dumbledore could have told Harry how to destroy a Horcrux and did not do so - specifically, he could have told him that the sword could be used to destroy a Horcrux because he had already used it to destroy the ring. Harry even asked him about the ring when they went to meet Slughorn that first time and Dumbledore deferred the question - claiming he would explain later, but never did so.

Dumbledore also could have gone over his own search with Harry - locations eliminated, locations suspected, etc... - as I said above. He chose not to so Harry probably wasted a lot of time looking in places that Dumbledore had already eliminated.

I don?t believe Dumbledore had any concerns about Snape having the DADA job. Dumbledore knew the position was cursed?no DADA professor served more than a year after Riddle applied for the job?and Dumbledore needed Snape by his side for all those years prior. When he did appoint Snape he knew he had ?maybe a year? to live. If Dumbledore was concerned in the least about Snape reverting to his old ways, the last year leading up to the fulfillment of all his plans would be the worst time to indulge a possible relapse. Although Dumbledore said he was concerned about what Snape knew possibly being exposed to Voldemort, he gives Snape the most damaging piece of information of all?there is a piece of Voldemort?s soul attached to Harry?s soul. Snape doesn?t know precisely what that means, but Voldemort certainly would have.

Dumbledore's concern about giving Snape the DADA position was stated on page as well as confirmed by Jo in interviews. He was worried that even that peripheral exposure to the Dark Arts would be a temptation for Snape that could cause him to return to his "old ways".

The curse was only a factor during those years in which Voldemort was gone. When Snape was hired to teach at Hogwarts - which would have been in either September or October of 1981 - Voldemort was still around. More importantly, Voldemort had ordered Snape to get a job at Hogwarts so he could spy on Dumbledore - which Dumbledore was aware of. As such, the curse was not an issue because Voldemort would have lifted it if Dumbledore had put Snape in the DADA position so he could keep his spy at Hogwarts as long as possible. That's also true for the time after Voldemort returned in GOF so Dumbledore could have put Snape in the DADA position in OOTP as well. It wasn't an issue in HBP because Voldemort believed Dumbledore would be dead by the end of that year and intended to make Snape Headmaster.

Wholeheartedly agree. It wasn't about power. It was about seeing Ariana again. It was all about love.

Well, yes and no. It wasn't just about seeing Ariana again. It was about making himself feel better by getting closure - being able to apologize to his parents and Ariana for what he had done. As Dumbledore admitted to Harry, he knew that was selfish - it was all about himself and making himself feel better and tearing their spirits out of the afterlife simply to make himself feel better wouldn't have been a good thing to do. It was motivated by love, but love doesn't always lead people to do the right thing - or even good things. That was a lesson Dumbledore learned - as he told Harry in Kings Cross when he admitted how selfish that was.

However, it was definitely not about power so we are in agreement there.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Dumbledore could have easily hidden the wand where it would never have been found. He spent years tracking down Voldemort’s horcruxes and found one because it was hidden in a place significant to Voldemort. Dumbledore could have selected someplace completely random and no one would have ever found it. So why keep it unless he had a reason to do so?

Originally Posted by Meesha1971

Because Dumbledore was smart enough to know that anything that is hidden can be found - as was proven with Voldemort's Horcruxes. In spite of all that effort to hide them and keep them a secret, they were found and systematically destroyed by Regulus, Dumbledore, and Harry. Hiding the Elder Wand was, by no means, a guaranteed method to protect others from it because there were always wizards looking for it - whether they were fanatics like Xenophilius looking for the Hallows or Dark Wizards just attempting to track down a powerful wand using historical references to the Elder Wand, Deathstick, and/or Wand of Destiny. Keeping it, not using it for harm, and dying undefeated to break its power was a more logical plan because it gave Dumbledore more control over the outcome than merely hiding it would have.

I think Mirrormere's point is a good one. The reason Voldemort's hidden Horcuxes could be tracked down was because Voldemort put them in places that he felt were significant to himself and that had ties that could be traced to him. Dumbledore just had to put the Elder Wand somewhere with which he had no ties, preferably outside the wizarding world.

I don't believe that any object is completely indestructible, anyway. All those Horcruxes could be destroyed. It just took special means, they had to be broken beyond magical repair. Killing Harry and the soulbit in him didn't even take special means, just a regular mundane old Killing Curse-- whatever the spells that make objects near indestructible, they were never cast on Harry because he was never an intentional Horcrux. It seems to me that there are protections that the makers of items can put on said items that are what provide the protection. If it is those same spells of protection on the Hallows, then the same means should work on them that could destroy a Horcux that has been protected. The Resurection Stone was cracked by the Sword of Gryffindor, which I think shows that basilisk venom could break through the protections on the Hallows. What, if anything, could repair the Elder Wand if it were cracked? Or completely broken in two by a few well-placed thwacks with the Sword? I don't think anything could have, because only the Elder Wand was shown to have the power to repair a broken wand (not even a master wandmaker could do that!), and I don't think a broken wand could repair itself.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think Mirrormere's point is a good one. The reason Voldemort's hidden Horcuxes could be tracked down was because Voldemort put them in places that he felt were significant to himself and that had ties that could be traced to him. Dumbledore just had to put the Elder Wand somewhere with which he had no ties, preferably outside the wizarding world.

I think that would be the problem actually - any place he chose would have some kind of connection because, otherwise, he wouldn't have chosen it. That was the issue with Voldemort's choices. He was positive the cave couldn't be connected to him - but that one incident from his childhood had been told to Dumbledore so it was. The Lestrange vault at Gringotts was the last place even Dumbledore would have considered that Voldemort would hide a Horcrux - but Bellatrix gave it away when she panicked after seeing the sword. Even Hogwarts was a location that most people would rule out - and did. Harry only got confirmation on that suspicion because Voldemort lost control over the Occlumency and Harry was able to see his thoughts again.

No hiding place could ever be guaranteed. Not just as far as Voldemort finding it, but the possibility of some other Dark Wizard finding it in the future. The only way to guarantee that the Elder Wand could never be used against people in that manner was to break it's power - ensure that no wizard could ever master it again.

I don't believe that any object is completely indestructible, anyway. All those Horcruxes could be destroyed. It just took special means, they had to be broken beyond magical repair. Killing Harry and the soulbit in him didn't even take special means, just a regular mundane old Killing Curse-- whatever the spells that make objects near indestructible, they were never cast on Harry because he was never an intentional Horcrux. It seems to me that there are protections that the makers of items can put on said items that are what provide the protection. If it is those same spells of protection on the Hallows, then the same means should work on them that could destroy a Horcux that has been protected. The Resurection Stone was cracked by the Sword of Gryffindor, which I think shows that basilisk venom could break through the protections on the Hallows. What, if anything, could repair the Elder Wand if it were cracked? Or completely broken in two by a few well-placed thwacks with the Sword? I don't think anything could have, because only the Elder Wand was shown to have the power to repair a broken wand (not even a master wandmaker could do that!), and I don't think a broken wand could repair itself.

I have to disagree on that because they are shown to be essentially indestructable in the text. The cloak - centuries old and not even a frayed edge? Belonging to teenage boys who used it for things like sneaking into the forest - yet not a tear even a grass stain? The cloak was in perfect condition because it was essentially indestructable, IMO. The ring was damaged, but resurrection stone was not destroyed - it still worked exactly as it was supposed to. The crack destroyed the soul fragment within in, but not the resurrection stone itself. As such, I think the same would hold true for the wand. If it could have been broken, then Dumbledore would have done so because his goal was to ensure that it could never be used by anyone else after his death.

I would agree that it might have been possible to cause some damage to those objects - i.e. the crack in the stone - but from what the text shows, none of those objects could ever be completely destroyed. Even damaged, they would all still be powerful, magical objects and work as they were intended to work - just like the resurrection stone did, IMO.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I think Mirrormere's point is a good one. The reason Voldemort's hidden Horcuxes could be tracked down was because Voldemort put them in places that he felt were significant to himself and that had ties that could be traced to him. Dumbledore just had to put the Elder Wand somewhere with which he had no ties, preferably outside the wizarding world.

Magical concealment can be detected and Voldemort would have been able to do it. We do not know how the Elder Wand behaves if you try to keep it from its rightful owner. Additionally, hidden things tend to get found. If not by Voldemort, some other wizard would have stumbled across it in the future.

From Dumbledore's point of view, dying by Snape's hand was the easiest way to break the power. I'd wager that the last time Dumbledore got disarmed or got beaten was when he was in school if at all.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

The Horcrux books revealed how to destroy a Horcurx - Dumbledore never told Harry that information.

Harry knew the diary was a horcrux and that basilisk venom destroyed it. I believe DD discussed that with him in HBP: Horcruxes. Therefore the book wasn't needed for that information.

They also revealed how a Horcrux was made - which Hermione did not explain in detail on page because it was so revolting. Jo said she described the process to her editor once and it made them want to vomit so she opted not to explain it in detail on page.

They didn't need to know how they were made in order to find and destroy them.

They also revealed how the damage inflicted could be reversed - remorse heals the soul - but that it would be very painful for someone who had made a Horcrux and could kill them - a certainty for Voldemort after intentionally splitting his soul into seven pieces (eight unintentionally). Again, Dumbledore never told Harry any of this information. He only gave Harry the basics of what a Horcrux was in the context of how it worked.

This information is not pertinent to their mission in the least. It does, however, come into play in the subplot surrounding DD's last plan involving Snape.

Also--the info about Hermione Accioing the books from DD's office is significant because it shows it can be done and that, if needed, Snape could have done the same with the Sword.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Magical concealment can be detected and Voldemort would have been able to do it. We do not know how the Elder Wand behaves if you try to keep it from its rightful owner. Additionally, hidden things tend to get found. If not by Voldemort, some other wizard would have stumbled across it in the future.

Don't use magical concealment. Dump it someplace completely random and insignificant. It would take years, perhaps lifetimes to find. By then it's power would have died.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Don't use magical concealment. Dump it someplace completely random and insignificant. It would take years, perhaps lifetimes to find. By then it's power would have died.

That makes it easier to find through magical means. There is also no guarantee that its power would have died.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
Don't use magical concealment. Dump it someplace completely random and insignificant. It would take years, perhaps lifetimes to find. By then it's power would have died.

That makes it easier to find through magical means.

To recall a bit of context--my point is that if DD wanted the power of the wand to die, it would have been easier and safer to just destroy the wand. Some feel the wand is indestructible, so another alternative would be to hide it where no one could ever find it. Hence--do not use traceable magical concealments and pick a random, insignificant spot to hide it (my preference--encase it in concrete, so it will sink, and dump it a score or so miles out in the Atlantic.) By the time someone found it, if they ever did, the owner would have passed on and the power of the wand would have also.

There is also no guarantee that its power would have died.

If the wand was ever found, and it would be an extraordinarily slim chance that it would, several generations would have passed and likely someone in the line that could claim mastery of the wand would have died of natural causes and the wand's power would be broken.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

To recall a bit of context--my point is that if DD wanted the power of the wand to die, it would have been easier and safer to just destroy the wand. Some feel the wand is indestructible, so another alternative would be to hide it where no one could ever find it. Hence--do not use traceable magical concealments and pick a random, insignificant spot to hide it (my preference--encase it in concrete, so it will sink, and dump it a score or so miles out in the Atlantic.) By the time someone found it, if they ever did, the owner would have passed on and the power of the wand would have also.

Answered on the Elder Wand thread

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Hence--do not use traceable magical concealments and pick a random, insignificant spot to hide it (my preference--encase it in concrete, so it will sink, and dump it a score or so miles out in the Atlantic.) By the time someone found it, if they ever did, the owner would have passed on and the power of the wand would have also.

Your method would work if no-one was initially looking for it. In this case, "accio Elder Wand" would have brought the wand (still encased in concrete) to Voldemort. A wave of the wand and the concrete would crack leaving the Elder Wand.

I'm sure that it probably could have been hidden quite well if Dumbledore really wanted to. My personal solution is to dump the Wand in the lake in Voldemort's cave with suitable protection. Voldemort wouldn't think of looking there for it.

IMO Dumbledore picked the simplest solution for him. Rather than wasting precious time looking for ways to destroy the Wand or hiding it, he decided to let the power of the Wand die with him. Dumbledore had probably never been beaten in a duel so there was no risk of him losing ownership of it. All he had to do was make sure that Snape killed him. Dumbledore saw an opportunity to take care of multiple birds with one stone.

If the wand was ever found, and it would be an extraordinarily slim chance that it would, several generations would have passed and likely someone in the line that could claim mastery of the wand would have died of natural causes and the wand's power would be broken.

I think what would have happened was that the new owner would have problems identifying who its Master was. Given the nature of the Wizarding World where people get involved in duels, I think its a stretch to imagine someone never being defeated in his/her lifetime. Someone like Dumbledore perhaps but not I'm not so sure about average wizards.

[mirrormere]

If Dumbledore helped McGonagall become an Animagus (see info on Minerva on the Pottermore site)--isn't it possible that he was an Animaus also? He would have to be unregistered since he doesn't appear on Hermione's list that we know of. Flouting Ministry laws wasn't beyond him.

Since there seems to be a correlation between one's patronus and one's Animagus, it would follow that Dumbledore's Animagus would have been a phoenix. Is there a possibility that instances were we thought it was Fawkes, it was actually Dumbledore?

The only place I can think of where that could have happened was in the Chamber of Secrets when "Fawkes" came to save Harry.

If your Animagus is magical, do you take on those magical properties? If the "Fawkes" that came to save Harry was actually Dumbledore, would his tears be able to heal Harry?