Return of Sirius Black?

[des06]

I have to agree with Alastor D. After all the entire chapter is called "The Only One He Ever Feared"

[ninakix]

Yes, but JKR leaves it fairly open - why not just say "Dumbledore is downstairs!" How the heck is Voldemort supposed to know it's Dumbledore or the favorite popcorn vender for Diagon Alley?

[des06]

Context. Also not naming Dumbledore by name could be similar to how few people in the wizarding world actually call Voldemort Voldemort.

[Blacks Beauty]

DOH! You're right, it's Dumbledore, of course. I always linked it with the "animagus Black" comment. I guess it could still be Sirius, but DD makes more sense.

And thanks for the compliment, ninakix. I wasn't sure if it would make sense to anyone.

[Northcott]

Yeah, I always figured it was Dumbledore too. It's obvious that Dumbledore inspires the same fear in the Death Eaters that Voldemort inspires in the general populace. When Dumbledore showed up, his (rare and frightening) rage plain for all to see, there was an attempt by the Death Eaters to make a run for it. Even Bellatrix made a mad dash after finishing Sirius.

Now, am I the only one who was given shivers by Dumbledore in that chapter? From his rage when he first appeared, to his (seemingly) effortless handling of the Death Eaters, and finally his words to Voldemort: "There are things worse than death". Now, we could read into that and search for philosophical meanings or hidden clues and foreshadowing... but what if it's simply a statement of the extent of Dumbledore's anger? The threat is staggering in it's implications.

[Stephie]

I think Sirius is gonna come back...well that's really what i want tobelieve!

I don't know. I just hope so much he does. He is just such a good character. And it's hard for most readers to have to read through Harry's depression.

I think that Harry might try to commit suicide. Like slit his wrist and the like. [b]BUT I HOPE NOT!!!

[ninakix]

Originally Posted by des06

Context. Also not naming Dumbledore by name could be similar to how few people in the wizarding world actually call Voldemort Voldemort.

Context, my dear, like Black Beauty thought, has to do with Sirius. She mentions Sirius, see:

Originally Posted by OotP812

"Master, I am sorry, I knew not, I was fighting the Animagus Black!" sobbed Bellatrix, flinging herself down at Voldemort's feet as he paced slowly nearer. "Master, you should know -"
"Be quiet, Bella," said Voldemort dangerously. "I shall deal with you in a moment. Do you think I have entered the Ministry of Magic to hear your sniveling apologie?"
"But Master - he is here - he is below -"

While it's presumable this is referring to Dumbledore because I would think that Voldemort would assume Black was downstairs because Bella was talking about fighting him. Then again, "he" could have to do with Siruis. We really can't be sure what Bella means by this. Again, Jo's brilliant(ly frustrating) crypticness. What may be key here, because we'll never know for certain, is the need for this crypticness. Is this crypticness here to leave open doors? Or just to **** us off? And what doors does it want to leave open for us? What door does she want us to find?

EDIT: Oh right, I found some definitions for snivel and sniveling, because it was there again... It's an interesting one.
1. To run at the nose; to make a snuffling noise.
2. To cry or whine with snuffling, as children; to cry weakly or whiningly. (Webster's)
n : whining in a tearful manner (Wordnet @ Princeton University)
\To sniffle.
To complain or whine tearfully.
To run at the nose.

n.
The act of sniffling or sniveling.
Nasal mucus. (American Heritage)

[Elocin4684]

I hope for Harry's sake, Sirius does come back. I'm afraid if Harry doesn't get real family love soon, he'll go off the deep end and pull a kamikaze.

[Siruis Lives]

Originally Posted by ninakix

While it's presumable this is referring to Dumbledore because I would think that Voldemort would assume Black was downstairs because Bella was talking about fighting him. Then again, "he" could have to do with Siruis. We really can't be sure what Bella means by this. Again, Jo's brilliant(ly frustrating) crypticness. What may be key here, because we'll never know for certain, is the need for this crypticness. Is this crypticness here to leave open doors? Or just to **** us off? And what doors does it want to leave open for us? What door does she want us to find?

Hey that's really interesting.
I've always assumed Bellatrix was speaking of DD. Him being the only one Voldermort ever feared.
However, readind the quote it does seem likely that she was talking of Sirius. Loving the theory Blacks Beauty!

[lady_yuna]

Originally Posted by Kneazle

Sirius is definitely dead; you can't escape the fact, I know, but I still have hope that we might see some form of him in the future. There was absolutely no closure for Harry when Sirius died: the latter fell behind the veil, and then he was gone. Memories linger, of course, and I am sure that Harry will see more of the Marauders' past before the series comes to a close, but I also believe that he will have some sort of contact with Sirius in the next two books. Even if it is a small sign in a fleeting scene or a dream, I believe that he will encounter something related to Sirius that comforts and helps him.

something you said clicked it maybe farfetched but hear goes i read somewhere that Harry's wand is good for dream spells so maybe he finds a spell that will make him talk to the dead in his sleep it a little far farfetched i know but you never know

[ultimate sacrifice]

Maybe Bellatrix was referring to Sirius going through the veil and below means the underworld. Reminds me of Lord of the Rings when "whats his name" the King guy went in to that cave area and brought all of the dead back to fight.

It's a long shot...I know.

[Elocin4684]

I don't remember Harry's wand being good for dream spells... I thought it was charms, or maybe something else. Anyway, I just had a revelation. We know that ghosts are from people that died that weren't happy when they died, so I think Sirius falls into that category very well. Jo has made a big deal, it seems, on people knowing why people become ghosts. Maybe Sirius will become a ghost and help out that way. Jo said she needed to kill him, so maybe this is why. What we really need to know, though, is why a ghost "lives" where they do; basically, why are they anchored there.

[MadamPudi]

I hope he doesn't come back as a ghost. As much as I want to see him again it would be so sad to see him that way knowing that once Harry dies he'll be stuck on Earth all alone, always trying to pass on so he can be with his friends again but never being able to do so. No, I hope he doesn't come back like that. I'll cry forever if he does. My poor Snuffles, please don't do that.

*Didn't I read somewhere that ghosts are only people who were afraid of death? Maybe all the ghosts are so sad because they want to go on but can't?"

[Elocin4684]

I read that ghosts were people that weren't happy when they died... now, I don't know the definition of not happy they were referring to. Here's an excert from mugglenet on the facts we know:

The happiest people do not become ghosts (12) (therefore we can take it that ghosts are people that died while sad, angry, etc. Myrtle was teased, Nearly Headless Nick didn't have his head completely chopped off, the Bloody Baron was...lonely?)

[Doggy]

Yes, but wasn't that there before OotP came out? Now that OotP is here, we obviously know some more; such as what Nearly Headless Nick said:

Originally Posted by Nearly Headless Nick, pg. 759

I was afraid of death. I chose to remain behind.

No to mention the fact that Nick told us just before that Sirius wasn't coming back.

Originally Posted by Nearly Headless Nick, pg. 759

He [Sirius] will not come back. He will have ... gone on.

Of course, Nick could be mistaken. But if he was, and Sirius indeed had chosen to remain as a ghost, why hasn't he shown himself to Harry? It seems as if a person has to decide whether they want to be a ghost or not almost at once (I don't think they can wait and think for days in nothing-ness), and if Sirius were to stay, that would be for Harry's sake, so he should have had plenty of time to soar over to Harry and show himself.

[Hogwarts Lake]

This thing has been bothering me for sometime now...Why did Lupin pull Harry away from the veil? What was there that he didn't want Harry to see?

Here is an excerpt


'SIRIUS!' Harry yelled. 'SIRIUS!'
He had reached the floor, his breath coming in searing gasps. Sirius must be just behind the curtain, he, Harry, would pull him back out…

But as he reached the ground and sprinted towards the dais, Lupin grabbed Harry around the chest, holding him back.
There's nothing you can do, Harry -'
'Get him, save him, he's only just gone through!'
'- it's too late, Harry.'

'We can still reach him -' Harry struggled hard and viciously, but Lupin would not let go…
There's nothing you can do, Harry… nothing… he's gone.'

'He hasn't gone!' Harry yelled.
He did not believe it; he would not believe it; still he fought Lupin with every bit of strength he had. Lupin did not understand; people hid behind that curtain; Harry had heard them whispering the first time he had entered the room. Sirius was hiding, simply lurking out of sight
'SIRIUS!' he bellowed. 'SIRIUS!'
`He can't come back, Harry,' said Lupin, his voice breaking as he struggled to contain Harry.
`He can't come back, because he's d-'
`HE - IS - NOT - DEAD!' roared Harry. 'SIRIUS!'
There was movement going on around them, pointless bustling, the flashes of more spells. To Harry it was meaningless noise, the deflected curses flying past them did not matter, nothing mattered except that Lupin should stop pretending that Sirius - who was standing feet from them behind that old curtain - was not going to emerge at any moment, shaking back his dark hair and eager to re-enter the battle.

Lupin dragged Harry away from the dais. Harry, still staring at the archway, was angry at Sirius now for keeping him waiting


Ok clearly Lupin wants him away from the veil he is literally stopping him from going any close to it. But why would he do that? Do you think Sirius was killed so badly by whatever it was behind the veil that he didn't want Harry to see his Godfather's dead body?

[Doggy]

Hogwarts Lake, this is discussed more in the thread Beyond the veil, but to say what I've always thought, the veil is really this single curtain hanging in the middle of the room, with nothing behind it or anything. And when Sirius fell through, his body just disapeared to somewhere-else. Therefore, Harry wouldn't see a severly hurt Sirius if he stepped through, but he would die as well, and get transported to wherever-Sirius-went, which I don't think Lupin wanted.

[Cat]

Originally Posted by Elocin4684

I read that ghosts were people that weren't happy when they died... now, I don't know the definition of not happy they were referring to. Here's an excert from mugglenet on the facts we know:

The happiest people do not become ghosts (12) (therefore we can take it that ghosts are people that died while sad, angry, etc. Myrtle was teased, Nearly Headless Nick didn't have his head completely chopped off, the Bloody Baron was...lonely?)

People who are happy in life don't fear death. Sirius wasn't the happiest person in the world, but I don't think he was afraid to die either. I don't think Sirius is a ghost. I can't remember if Nick said this or not, but if he said what I remember him saying then I agree with him - Sirius wasn't the sort of person to become a ghost.

I don't see, either, what kind of merit Sirius being a ghost would have on the story. It would make Harry happier, but since when was that plot development?

Hogwarts Lake, I don't think anybody could see anything behind the veil. Harry tried and saw nothing. I think that Lupin was holding him back because Harry was trying to go through after Sirius. He was saving Harry's life.

[RadicaL]

If Sirius had went through the veil then shouldn't their be a way to come back? We heard all those voices and they seemed to be trying to get out. Maybe there is a way to bring somebody back, some sort of ancient magic because technically Sirius isn't dead, he has just passed to the dead.

[Dr Hesper]

Originally Posted by Hogwarts Lake

This thing has been bothering me for sometime now...Why did Lupin pull Harry away from the veil? What was there that he didn't want Harry to see?

Ok clearly Lupin wants him away from the veil he is literally stopping him from going any close to it. But why would he do that? Do you think Sirius was killed so badly by whatever it was behind the veil that he didn't want Harry to see his Godfather's dead body?

I'm sure that this has been discussed before...but what if the veil were a portkey? If DD and Lupin wanted Sirius to go "undercover" for them, then obviously with Voldemort being able to get into Harry's mind, they would not want Harry to know what they had done with Sirius.

I'm not saying that Sirius isnt dead mind you. But i can see the value in everyone believing Sirius was dead. Previously the Ministry (who themselves appear to have been corrupted by Malfoy) had a manhunt on for Sirius. Sirius wanted desperately to get in on the action and hated being locked up. This is a way he might be able to help the Order.