Sirius Black: Character Analysis v.4

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by JohanT

Going a little into a hypothetical scenario, I would like to bring into question Sirius' potential difference in character had his parents treated him with kindness. I do not know if we are aware of the exact upbringing he had to endure, but, supposing that it was less than doting, I feel as though I can safely say that any neglect would have pushed him away from this prejudice he saw daily. While he may, at the time of adulthood, have developed this grudge against bigotry itself, until then, I think it may have been a grudge directed at his own kin.

Interesting. Sirius doesn't actually say anywhere that I can recall, that he was treated badly by his parents. When asked by Harry about why he left home Sirius replies; "Because I hated the whole lot of them, my parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal...my idiot brother, soft enough to believe them..." (OotP,The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black)

It seems to me going from that quote, that the Blacks were, or at least thought of themselves as sort of wizarding aristocracy. I gather it was traditional that such families often had certain expectations of their eldest son, and expect him to live up to them. What I am trying to say rather badly, is that I think that it is possible Sirius was indeed loved, cared for, and maybe even doted on in a fashion, being as he was the eldest son. However that his family may have pushed him hard to be what they wanted him to be, insisting he had a responsibility as son and heir; but that Sirius eventually kicked back against them and all they stood for. I'm just putting the idea out there as another possibility.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Regarding the two way mirror, it looks like he simply forgot about it. Sirius gave it to him as a way of alerting him if Snape was giving him trouble and Harry had decided immediately that he wouldn't use it for such a purpose, that he wouldn't do anything that might result in Sirius compromising his safety. Harry did it with Sirius' best interest at heart.
I find it tragic that he didn't even look at it. A secure private means of communication would have helped both of them.

I agree with you that Harry just forgot about the mirror, and so it seemed did Sirius. When Harry breaks into Umbridge's office the first time, I thought Sirius might have asked him why he didn't use the mirror to contact him, but he didn't. I guess it was just something JKR wanted to introduce purely for use later on in the series.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by kittling

You see this quote makes me doubt your point. To me Sirius seems quiet manipulative here, his disappointment in Harry wanting to put safety first seems evident to me. Also by withdrawing both his approval and his presence he adds weight to his disapproval of Harry not behaving like James and not enjoying the risk. This all looks to me as if he wants Harry to be as reckless as he and his best friend were/is.

I believe wolfbrother explained it best. It was Sirius who would be in danger in this situation. Harry simply did not want to allow such a risk to take place.

A higher level? I need to know what you mean here, ‘cos me making assumptions isn’t going to help at all!

Wrong phrase, maybe? Merely that, he acknowledges the fact that batting Harry’s every question and inquiry down will have the exact effects they wish to prevent. Sirius understood this burning desire that Harry has to fight and be aware, and thus, he caters to this, but only when necessary. This is something that fails to register with both Dumbledore and Mrs. Weasley (at the time of Ootp, that is). He simply knew how to deal with Harry better, to put it simply and concisely.

You see here I do have a problem. For me just because things work out a particular way does not mean that a particular person was wrong or right. I don’t happen to agree with Dumbledore, or Sirius, here.

Harry’s tendency to run off into danger is not a reason to tell him more as far as I can see, after all Arthur tried that in PA and that didn’t work! This might be part of the reason why Dumbledore was so reluctant to tell him what was going on in OotP.

That said I don’t think there was a right thing to do – but I can’t really discus that without going OT lots!

Hmm, well, allowing Harry to be fully aware of the danger was exactly what Sirius was trying to achieve. In Mr. Weasley’s case, and in Dumbledore’s, the situations were such that Harry did not know the truth of the danger itself. Harry was unaware, under misconception, of course, that Sirius was the reason Lily and James were murdered. Since no one bothered to reveal that little tid bit, he ran in blindly, without prior analysis. Perhaps, and this is just a suggestion, Sirius wished to prevent this, by revealing most of the danger’s properties to Harry. The conditions, as you can see, are quite different.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by JohanT

Going a little into a hypothetical scenario, I would like to bring into question Sirius' potential difference in character had his parents treated him with kindness.

That is a very interesting hypothetical. This is actually one of the few times I don’t have a ready opinion on a HP “What If?” question.

If Sirius’s parents had treated him with kindness, I do think he would have been less antagonistic about them. He could very potentially have turned into a Draco-ish character, really. But again, I think there was always something in Sirius that made his parents treat him less-than-exemplarily even before he’d started Hogwarts. On the train itself, we see he has a desire to break free of them – suggesting he isn’t very happy with his home life. Why would that be? Must have been because his parents saw something different in him, something that had nothing to do with being a Gryffindor or joining the pro-Muggle movement. That something, IMO, was Sirius’s own personality and behavior that differed from that of the rest of the Blacks. Therefore, I guess my ultimate verdict is that, if his parents had treated him kindly, Sirius would have turned out with the same correct moral compass that he has in the books, but would perhaps have been less aggressive or on-the-edge.

Having said that, picturing a kind, caring Walburga is just too much for me.

And personally, I would view Sirius, fairly or unfairly, it is for others to say, as someone who would find random excuses to further distrust someone.

Why do you say so? I certainly haven’t seen much evidence for such a statement.

The constant jabs at Snape's involvement with Dark magic had less to do with Dark magic, and more to do with Snape.

Regarding the Snape matter… I always saw the animosity as mainly between James and Snape. Their hatred for each other had a logic behind it – a stupid logic, but a logic nevertheless. Sirius, I think, mainly joined in to back his best friend up. I would put it like this: Sirius had no qualms about fighting with Snape because Snape (along with many other Slytherin Death Eater wannabes) represented everything Sirius resented and wanted to leave behind. It was mainly Snape he focused on because his enmity with James made him the most convenient person. As time passed, however, I think Sirius’s dislike for Snape came into its own because of Snape trying to get them expelled, Sirius’s growing desire to fight against Dark Arts, Snape’s growing skill at the Dark Arts and whatever other stuff was brewing between them. JMO.

Originally Posted by kittling

Very interesting, but I’d like to know your canon backing for many of the points you raised

Eg we know that Ted & Andromeda married in 1970, before Sirius went to School – so it seems very unlikely he would have met Ted until after he lift home. Also there is a 6 to 8 year age gap whicm means that a) they may never have been in school at the same time and that she went to boarding school when Sirius was between 3 & 5 – which doesn’t give them much time to form a strong relationship

Wellll…I did start with “I think what happened was…” We never are given any firsthand canon instances of Sirius’s childhood so the whole thing was my attempt at explaining why Sirus turned out the way he did.

And, if not Andromeda, then that uncle who left him all his wealth. Basically, any “black” sheep of the Black family who would’ve got on with Sirius better than Sirius’s direct family.

To me there is a clear pattern not of Sirius knowing how to handle Harry but of Harry listening when he wants to. Other people have treated Harry with equal respect given him information so that he would understand how important it was for him to act in a particular way and again this only works as long as Harry wanted to do what was asked of him.

I’m just going to second wolfbrother’s statements here. I will also add that GoF gave, IMO, a better overview of Sirius’s parenting abilities and his understanding of Harry than OoTP, where his mental state was just going downhill.

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

Sirius doesn't actually say anywhere that I can recall, that he was treated badly by his parents.

The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black, OoTP 'He was younger than me,' said Sirius, 'and a much better son, as I was constantly reminded.'

Seems to me like there was a fair bit of favoritism going on in the Black household. And, IMO, for a parent to pit one of their children against another is just plain rotten treatment of the one without your favor.

I agree with you that Harry just forgot about the mirror, and so it seemed did Sirius. When Harry breaks into Umbridge's office the first time, I thought Sirius might have asked him why he didn't use the mirror to contact him, but he didn't. I guess it was just something JKR wanted to introduce purely for use later on in the series.

At the end of OoTP, when Harry discovers the mirror at the bottom of his trunk and Sirius’s note accompanying it, I was almost screaming at the cruelty of it all. If ONLY, Harry had opened the mirror and used that to check on Sirius instead of using Umbridge’s fire, Sirius needn’t have died.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

That is a very interesting hypothetical. This is actually one of the few times I don’t have a ready opinion on a HP “What If?” question.

If Sirius’s parents had treated him with kindness, I do think he would have been less antagonistic about them. He could very potentially have turned into a Draco-ish character, really. But again, I think there was always something in Sirius that made his parents treat him less-than-exemplarily even before he’d started Hogwarts. On the train itself, we see he has a desire to break free of them – suggesting he isn’t very happy with his home life. Why would that be? Must have been because his parents saw something different in him, something that had nothing to do with being a Gryffindor or joining the pro-Muggle movement. That something, IMO, was Sirius’s own personality and behavior that differed from that of the rest of the Blacks. Therefore, I guess my ultimate verdict is that, if his parents had treated him kindly, Sirius would have turned out with the same correct moral compass that he has in the books, but would perhaps have been less aggressive or on-the-edge.

Having said that, picturing a kind, caring Walburga is just too much for me.

Yes, that is a bit of a stretch to envision . What with the crabbiness she is portrayed as having in her later years.

I don't know if they saw something different within Sirius, but I do believe that they did not see him as an individual. TreacleTartlet brought up an excellent point regarding the possibility of the Blacks "encouraging" (I use the term loosely) Sirius to become a miniature version of the pure-blood ideal. He was theirs to cultivate and expand, and his only purpose was to live up to the Black name. In short, he was not their son, but their extension. Sirius realized this before Regulus ever did.

Why do you say so? I certainly haven’t seen much evidence for such a statement.

The evidence is only my interpretation of his character. I read the text a little differently, I suppose. Specifically, his wish to downplay Snape.

Regarding the Snape matter… I always saw the animosity as mainly between James and Snape. Their hatred for each other had a logic behind it – a stupid logic, but a logic nevertheless. Sirius, I think, mainly joined in to back his best friend up. I would put it like this: Sirius had no qualms about fighting with Snape because Snape (along with many other Slytherin Death Eater wannabes) represented everything Sirius resented and wanted to leave behind. It was mainly Snape he focused on because his enmity with James made him the most convenient person. As time passed, however, I think Sirius’s dislike for Snape came into its own because of Snape trying to get them expelled, Sirius’s growing desire to fight against Dark Arts, Snape’s growing skill at the Dark Arts and whatever other stuff was brewing between them. JMO.

I agree, for the most part. While I believe Sirius resented Snape because he was...well...Snape, his resentment was not so focused on Snape being a practitioner of the Dark Arts. Rather, it was his fascination with the Death Eater movement, which Sirius, a noble man, would naturally be opposed to. In addition, Snape was a person with Slytherin pride, obviously reminding him strongly of the family he wished he was never born into.

[wickedwickedboy]

Upon re-reading, Sirius remains one of my favorite characters in the books. He really was quite hilarious throughout and it is a shame when he died because that particular character went missing from the series. Although, to be fair, JKR seemed to pick up -what to me were - some of his funniest traits in another character, so that was kind of alright. I had forgotten how amusing she'd written him...

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Upon re-reading, Sirius remains one of my favorite characters in the books. He really was quite hilarious throughout and it is a shame when he died because that particular character went missing from the series. Although, to be fair, JKR seemed to pick up -what to me were - some of his funniest traits in another character, so that was kind of alright. I had forgotten how amusing she'd written him...

He's one of my favourites, too, though I'm more fascinated by his doom. As a boy, he was the scion of a relatively wealthy prominent, pure-blood family, as a man he was a prisoner of his past. I think he's one of the characters who were defined by loss.

[Sereena]

I agree with both of you. I'm currently rereading OotP and it occurs to me that JKR killed Sirius off too soon. I don't know, I just thought his character was so well developed and so interesting that it would have been nice for him to stick around a while longer. I know he had an entire book basically about him (PoA) but still... when the action finally begun he died. It was a shame IMO though I understand why it needed to be done.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Although, to be fair, JKR seemed to pick up -what to me were - some of his funniest traits in another character, so that was kind of alright.

Which character is that? Just curious.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I think he's one of the characters who were defined by loss.

Definitely. To me, he was one of the most tragic characters in the book, if not the most tragic. The saddest part is that, contrary to JKR's emphasis on always having a choice, he seemed to be a victim of his fate. None of the tragedy that befell him was brought on by himself. Just look at his timeline of events:
He was born into a twisted family with twisted expectations.

He made the choice to associate with better people and better himself.

He lost all those good people whom he loved in one night as a result of tragically misplaced trust.

He got framed for murdering those people he loved most, was sent to jail for 13 years without a trial.

Escaped and caught the person who had framed him, but that person escaped again.

Spent around a year in a cave and living off rats.

Was sent back to Square 1, to the house of his twisted family and remained a prisoner there for the rest of his life.

Ultimately, he died at 39 but never even got to live as a free adult man.

If that's not tragic, I don't what is.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Definitely. To me, he was one of the most tragic characters in the book, if not the most tragic. The saddest part is that, contrary to JKR's emphasis on always having a choice, he seemed to be a victim of his fate. None of the tragedy that befell him was brought on by himself. Just look at his timeline of events:

I agree that many horrible things happened to Sirius that were not his choice. However, I don't think that takes away from the theme of choice - these were the choices of other people, not of Sirius. His family chose to engage in rabid bigotry. Voldemort and the DEs chose to capitalise on that to cause harm. Wormtail chose to betray all of his friends. Crouch chose to send Sirius to prison without a trial. We cannot control the choices of others, but they will sometimes impact on us. You (general) cannot control what others chose to do, and you cannot control everything that happens to you, but you can control how you react to the things that happen to you. This is shown throughout the series, not just in Sirius' case.

However, you mention Sirius' choices, too - and there, the theme of choice is present, too - it illustrates Sirius' choices about the type of person he wanted to be and the values he held dear.

Ultimately, he died at 39 but never even got to live as a free adult man.

Ssdly, he was even younger than that - he was only twenty when Harry was born.
He never did get to live much of life as an adult, literally and figuratively. I think that Azkaban stunted his growth, as well as causing a deep depression.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Sereena

I agree with both of you. I'm currently rereading OotP and it occurs to me that JKR killed Sirius off too soon. I don't know, I just thought his character was so well developed and so interesting that it would have been nice for him to stick around a while longer. I know he had an entire book basically about him (PoA) but still... when the action finally begun he died. It was a shame IMO though I understand why it needed to be done.

Technically, yes he did get a book all about him but he didn't appear as a character himself in the book until what? two thirds of the way through it? Until then he existed as an off-page threat and we find out that much of the information we learned about him in that first two-thirds was false information anyway.

I like him as a character but not nearly as much as many other people do. I find him interesting in the same way I find Snape interesting; they are both damaged men, haunted by their past, struggling with demons. I suspect, though, that Snape might be more capable of overcoming his demons whereas I see Sirius as the type to push them away, bury them deep inside himself and just try not to deal with them and because of his possible desire to not deal with them at all he would stuggle with them for the rest of his life. Snape, at least, recognized his demons and began taking steps to reconcile them even if he could never fully atone for them or his own actions. He showed a willingness to work on his problems.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I like him as a character but not nearly as much as many other people do. I find him interesting in the same way I find Snape interesting; they are both damaged men, haunted by their past, struggling with demons. I suspect, though, that Snape might be more capable of overcoming his demons whereas I see Sirius as the type to push them away, bury them deep inside himself and just try not to deal with them and because of his possible desire to not deal with them at all he would stuggle with them for the rest of his life. Snape, at least, recognized his demons and began taking steps to reconcile them even if he could never fully atone for them or his own actions. He showed a willingness to work on his problems.

I like both Severus and Sirius, with a preference for Severus. That said, I'm not sure it's fair to make this comparison. Aside from some brief youthful glimpses, we get to know Sirius only as an escapee of Azkaban. After spending something like 12 years with the Dementors, Sirius is severely damaged. Being shut up in Grimmauld Place exacerbates the damage.

So my question is this: do we really know that Sirius is the type not to deal with his demons? We know that he resorts to alcohol while shut up in Grimmauld, presumably as a way of dealing with his demons. But I'm not sure we know the extent to which Sirius might have overcome his demons if he had possessed more freedom of movement.

To his credit, Sirius (surprisingly) tells Harry that he is "not proud" of the actions he took in SWM. This indicates a certain amount of self-reflection. That ability to reflect suggests that Sirius may possess an ability to confront his demons. Unfortunately, he seeks solace in alcohol. And finally, he engages in the direct physical action at the Ministry that leads to his death. His death, obviously cuts short whatever potential he may have had for confronting his demons.

ETA:

Snape points answered on the Snape thread.

[wolfbrother]

What exactly were Sirius' demons ?

I do not think he was too concerned about his behavior when in school. IMO his core demons would have been getting over the fact that it was, ultimately, his decision to switch SKs that led to the Potter's death and perhaps that maybe he should have done more to make his brother see sense.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

What exactly were Sirius' demons ?

Perhaps his family past, his role in changing the SK, his desire for action while having to lay low... whatever it was that was driving him to drink would be his demons. And then, of course, the alcohol itself becomes a demon... at least in the way he was using the alcohol.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

I like both Severus and Sirius, with a preference for Severus. That said, I'm not sure it's fair to make this comparison. Aside from some brief youthful glimpses, we get to know Sirius only as an escapee of Azkaban. After spending something like 12 years with the Dementors, Sirius is severely damaged. Being shut up in Grimmauld Place exacerbates the damage.

I don't think that Sirius was severely damaged by dementors in Azkaban. He himself says that he was able to retain his sanity, and could keep his magical ability intact because the dementors could not remove his certainty that he was innocent, that Peter was the true betrayer, and his desire to keep Harry safe once he knew Pettigrew was hiding out at the Burrow/Hogwarts (because they're not "happy" thoughts, they're convictions, so he was not left with just negative thoughts). That sustained Sirius during his time in Azkaban, and gave him the courage to act and escape to protect Harry. Was it miserable and depressing being in prison? Undoubtedly. Did it severely damage Sirius in terms of his character & integrity? I don't think it did; he seems very much the same in his views and passion, and the same tendency to brood a bit (about his family situation). I also think that because he was prevented from a normal life at a very young age, he had no opportunity to mature further and gain perspective, and thus he retained much of his youthful impulses of recklessness and quick anger.

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

So my question is this: do we really know that Sirius is the type not to deal with his demons? We know that he resorts to alcohol while shut up in Grimmauld, presumably as a way of dealing with his demons. But I'm not sure we know the extent to which Sirius might have overcome his demons if he had possessed more freedom of movement.

I don't know if Sirius really had demons per se. He likely had regret at his decision to talk James into changing secret keepers. He had bitterness toward Peter for being unfairly put in Azkaban; he had frustration at having to stay locked up for his own safety and thus feeling useless, wanting to do something more in the war effort. I think Sirius drank when he was alone with too much time to focus on the fact that he still felt imprisoned to a degree.

[mirrormere]

It was also Sirius's choice to stay at Gimmauld Place. Previous to OotP he was out of the country and being an Animagus he could sneak out for a jaunt or two, so I don't think he was completely locked up in the house. He was just frustrated because he didn't feel offering his house and managing it as headquarters for the Order was heroic enough, even though it was a very important function he was fulfilling.

[wolfbrother]

Sirius being an Animagus was now known to Voldemort and all the death eaters so he couldn't go out for a jaunt.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Sirius being an Animagus was now known to Voldemort and all the death eaters so he couldn't go out for a jaunt.

Yes-if he left the house as a dog he might be spotted, but he could Apparate somewhere else and a nondescript black dog could venture about unrecognized.

[Halcipher]

I got a question here but I don't know if it's allready been asked, but why did Sirius's posters not come out of the anti- removble charm or something when Sirius died?

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by Halcipher

I got a question here but I don't know if it's allready been asked, but why did Sirius's posters not come out of the anti- removble charm or something when Sirius died?

It seems some charms survive beyond the caster's death. Else the ancient protections about Hogwarts would have dissipated when the original founders died. Not sure how that works. Some charms seem to wear off by themselves-like Stupify. Perhaps they then break sooner when the caster dies.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

So my question is this: do we really know that Sirius is the type not to deal with his demons? We know that he resorts to alcohol while shut up in Grimmauld, presumably as a way of dealing with his demons. But I'm not sure we know the extent to which Sirius might have overcome his demons if he had possessed more freedom of movement.

I would say his biggest demons were probably, besides the Potters' death, his family and heritage. It's very sad that he not only spent the last part of his life shut in the family house he hated but was also ultimately killed by a family member who represented everything he despised about his family. Makes you wonder how much Rowling actually liked Sirius

In all seriousness though, this is my main problem with his death- the fact that his character arc is left as I see it uncompleted. He was too well developed as a character to die so suddenly and without having dealt with his problems and "demons". It's clear that the only purpose of his death was to give Harry a lesson and have him mature a bit but in terms of character development I thought it was a shame. After all, Lupin was less developed than Sirius and he was kept around until book seven. Snape gets about as much development as Sirius but even he only dies after there is nothing else left for his character to do so or say. I would have liked to see Sirius take on Bellatrix in the final battle and win. That would have shown him having come to terms with his crazy family and even in some way with the Potters' death as he would be offing someone the man who killed his friends obviously wanted to keep around.