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Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?



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  #261  
Old August 10th, 2010, 1:55 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
We can't blame him for any condition he has from birth, but in the same vein we can't blame others for it either. We can blame Voldemort for his choices and actions, though. Not all psychopaths become mass-murderers. He was perfectly conscious of what he was doing.
Exactly. Genetic defects and mental instability do not remove the significance of choice. Our choices define who we are - they do not make us who we are. That is true for everyone regardless of whether their gene pool was healthy or not. Voldemort was intelligent enough to know that he needed to hide the things he was doing even as a child - which demonstrates that he was intelligent enough to know those things were wrong and that he would get into trouble for them. As an adult, he continued to hide his activities until he felt that he had attained enough power and support to take over the Ministry and redefine the laws to suit what he wanted the world to be like. Voldemort was responsible for the choices he made just like everyone else was.


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  #262  
Old August 10th, 2010, 9:23 am
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn View Post
We can't blame him for any condition he has from birth, but in the same vein we can't blame others for it either. We can blame Voldemort for his choices and actions, though. Not all psychopaths become mass-murderers. He was perfectly conscious of what he was doing.
Well, I don't blame others for his condition either but someone should have seen the signs and recognized it when he was very young. If you don't teach a kid right from wrong when he is young, he'll keep doing the same stuff when he is an adult. Most people have a sense of morality which Voldemort utterly lacked.

Voldemort became so successful because he was extremely intelligent and magically talented. If not, he'd have been stopped fairly quickly and early.

The line he says to Harry in PS/SS about there being 'no good and evil only power and those too weak to seek it' was most illuminating to me. IMO he did not believe in nor understand the concept of good and evil. He had a warped sense of survival of the fittest. Good and evil is a human concept. Animals don't have any such thing. They do not bother about killing other animals and care primarily for their own survival.

I can just see Voldemort thinking to himself that this 'good and evil' business was some stupid societal custom/practice. Even in our world, we've had practices in the past that were stupid and had to be changed.

I see Voldemort as a wild animal that's loose in the neighborhood. I don't blame the animal for running around attacking people. I blame the people responsible for letting the animal escape. However, now that it has escaped, it should be stopped at any cost.


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  #263  
Old August 11th, 2010, 4:22 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Well, I don't blame others for his condition either but someone should have seen the signs and recognized it when he was very young. If you don't teach a kid right from wrong when he is young, he'll keep doing the same stuff when he is an adult. Most people have a sense of morality which Voldemort utterly lacked.

I think that people did notice Tom Riddle's evil proclivities. The orphanage knew but we weren't given an account of how they dealt with him. However, Dumbledore was the main one who knew about Tom Riddle. He knew about Tom's stealing. He knew about the children being afraid of Tom. I think that Dumbledore thought he was helping Tom by bringing him to Hogwarts. He mentored Tom in much the same way he mentored Harry. In fact I would guess that he was more hands on with Tom than Harry. He needed to remain aloof from Harry because of the prophecy. But with Tom Dumbledore was probably intrigued by his obvious magical talent. The fact that he was parseltongue was intriguing as well. And yet Tom still turned into a dark wizard despite Dumbledore's personal interest.

Your wild animal theory is a little off, imho. It's not like anyone was precient. They knew about his tendencies but they chose to see the good in Tom. He was handsome, intelligent, and well-mannered. They thought that if they cultivated his good qualities he wouldn't need his old twisted ways. So Tom wasn't a wild animal. He was more like a large pet dog that went rabid. When an animal goes rabid it reverts back to it's base instincts for survival. And I think that's what Tom did. When Dumbledore took him in he was successful in making Tom feel like he had a real home at Hogwarts. In fact when Tom thinks he might've gotten Hogwarts closed because of the monster in the Chamber of Secrets you can tell he panicked. And it was the thought of losing his home that made him frame Hagrid and lock up the basilisk again. But always he reverted back to his base instincts. His love for his home. His respect for Dumbledore. It all simply got drowned out by the craziness inside him.


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  #264  
Old August 11th, 2010, 8:39 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I think that people did notice Tom Riddle's evil proclivities. The orphanage knew but we weren't given an account of how they dealt with him. However, Dumbledore was the main one who knew about Tom Riddle. He knew about Tom's stealing. He knew about the children being afraid of Tom. I think that Dumbledore thought he was helping Tom by bringing him to Hogwarts. He mentored Tom in much the same way he mentored Harry. In fact I would guess that he was more hands on with Tom than Harry. He needed to remain aloof from Harry because of the prophecy. But with Tom Dumbledore was probably intrigued by his obvious magical talent. The fact that he was parseltongue was intriguing as well. And yet Tom still turned into a dark wizard despite Dumbledore's personal interest.
Obviously the orphanage didn't deal with him correctly. They knew something was off with him but seemed perfectly happy to pass him off to Hogwarts without warning anyone. It was only with Dumbledore's assurance and Cole having a little too much to drink that news of his wrongdoings came out.

I don't think Dumbledore mentored Riddle at all. Dumbledore was the only wizard that Riddle was wary about and he didn't try to charm him like the other teachers. Dumbledore says Riddle was always guarded with him. I can see Riddle avoiding Dumbledore as much as possible and Dumbledore would not have forced his help or guidance on someone who didn't want it.

Quote:
Your wild animal theory is a little off, imho. It's not like anyone was precient. They knew about his tendencies but they chose to see the good in Tom. He was handsome, intelligent, and well-mannered. They thought that if they cultivated his good qualities he wouldn't need his old twisted ways. So Tom wasn't a wild animal. He was more like a large pet dog that went rabid. When an animal goes rabid it reverts back to it's base instincts for survival. And I think that's what Tom did. When Dumbledore took him in he was successful in making Tom feel like he had a real home at Hogwarts. In fact when Tom thinks he might've gotten Hogwarts closed because of the monster in the Chamber of Secrets you can tell he panicked. And it was the thought of losing his home that made him frame Hagrid and lock up the basilisk again. But always he reverted back to his base instincts. His love for his home. His respect for Dumbledore. It all simply got drowned out by the craziness inside him.
The wild animal analogy was basically to show that you couldn't really blame him for being a nutcase. It works with your example as well. You don't blame the dog for becoming rabid but the people who should have been looking after the dog.

The only people who knew about Riddle's tendencies were the people at the orphanage and Dumbledore. None of the other staff, IMO, were even aware that he was capable of such things. I don't think Dumbledore had anything much to do with Riddle feeling at home in Hogwarts. Given that he was coming from an orphanage to a place where he was fawned over by a lot of people, I can see why he loved the place.
Also, I doubt he respected Dumbledore. I think the only thing he might have respected about him was his magical ability.


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  #265  
Old August 12th, 2010, 9:13 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by Sly_Lady View Post
It's Voldemort's fault.
Agreed
I thought he was a messed up kid. He had a hard childhood, and that affected him. And then it went downhill from there.


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  #266  
Old August 30th, 2010, 10:16 pm
fluffyfan  Male.gif fluffyfan is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Voldies choices are all his, his choice to murder, and general cruelty were his choice alone. If a murderer doesn't believe they are doing the wrong thing then they wouldn't try to hide or cover up their actions, thus seeing as voldy chose to make his uncle take the rap for his first murder he knew full well his crime thus he is totaly responsible for his evil actions. lets stop trying to put the blame onto everyone else and letting the evil people get away with their actions.


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  #267  
Old August 30th, 2010, 11:46 pm
Headless_Nick  Undisclosed.gif Headless_Nick is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

I think it was a combination of factors and people. Marvolo Gaunt for the way he treated his daughter, which no doubt contributed to her inability to cope with social issues or with having a kid. Merope herself is partially at fault for being so willing to give up in a sense, even though it's easy to understand her position. Tom Riddle Sr. is also to blame because of the way he abandoned Merope. Voldemort's teachers during his time at Hogwarts were also at fault for turning a blind eye to many of the things that he did. And lastly, Voldemort was himself partially at fault because he could have made different choices at so many points during his life.


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  #268  
Old August 31st, 2010, 5:36 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by fluffyfan View Post
Voldies choices are all his, his choice to murder, and general cruelty were his choice alone. If a murderer doesn't believe they are doing the wrong thing then they wouldn't try to hide or cover up their actions, thus seeing as voldy chose to make his uncle take the rap for his first murder he knew full well his crime thus he is totaly responsible for his evil actions. lets stop trying to put the blame onto everyone else and letting the evil people get away with their actions.
This is along the lines of what I was thinking. However, the one who really takes the blame is the person who started all the "pure-blood" nonsense, which had started even before Voldemort rose to power. Voldemort deserves to take blame his part, he has no excuses for his actions.


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  #269  
Old August 31st, 2010, 1:57 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by Headless Nick
Merope herself is partially at fault for being so willing to give up in a sense, even though it's easy to understand her position. Tom Riddle Sr. is also to blame because of the way he abandoned Merope.
I totally agree,

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Voldemort's teachers during his time at Hogwarts were also at fault for turning a blind eye to many of the things that he did.
I think it's more that they singled him out, made him feel different and special. Most teachers did so, because he was talented. Dumbledore did so, because he suspected him. That way, I think, they developed in him the feeling of superiority and that he was really different. And developed in his friends the feeling that he was better and therefore had to be obeyed and respected. Which I think was the begining point of the Lord-Servant relationship.


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  #270  
Old September 1st, 2010, 1:43 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by fluffyfan View Post
Voldies choices are all his, his choice to murder, and general cruelty were his choice alone. If a murderer doesn't believe they are doing the wrong thing then they wouldn't try to hide or cover up their actions, thus seeing as voldy chose to make his uncle take the rap for his first murder he knew full well his crime thus he is totaly responsible for his evil actions. lets stop trying to put the blame onto everyone else and letting the evil people get away with their actions.
Voldemort only covered up his initial murders. Voldemort wasn't stupid. He knew that killing someone would land him in Azkaban. He covered up his initial murders because he didn't want to be jailed. Later on, he doesn't bother covering up his murders.
I don't think he ever thought of killing someone as "wrong". He didn't seem to have any problem killing anyone, telling others to kill or others attempting to kill him or his followers.


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  #271  
Old September 2nd, 2010, 4:58 am
TaafeMJ  Male.gif TaafeMJ is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Something interesting that I thought about with regard to Voldemort's kills: I've read accounts from serial killers, that say the first kill took them years to work up to. The next, a year. The next, a couple months. After that, it just came natural.

Voldemort's kills end up in a similar way. His first kills (I think his parents...though the basilisk kills Myrtle) took him years to build up to. His next kill (I think Hepzibah Smith) took him another year or so. Then the First War began, and he did it with regularity, I'd assume.

I'm not really going anywhere special with this, I just thought it was interesting.


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  #272  
Old September 2nd, 2010, 7:33 am
28undermyspell  Undisclosed.gif 28undermyspell is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

It was all the violence on the bloody TV that did it!

And the video games!!!

No, but in all serious, Dumbledore is sort of to blame. He saw what Tom Riddle was: a narcissistic, manipulative, unstable, violent sociopath with all of the makings of either a tyrant or a serial killer (as it turned out in his case---both.) Dumbledore should have seen to it that Riddle got some help. I'm sure there are wizard shrinks and some kind of psychiatric potions in the Harry Potter universe; it's clear that they have no "cure alls" for mental illnesses and problems, but they have to have something slightly better than Muggle Psychology, let alone equal to it; it'd be silly for there not to be. Heck, seeing a plain old Muggle shrink might have done the kid (and the world) some good.



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  #273  
Old September 3rd, 2010, 9:45 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

his parents ):<


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  #274  
Old September 3rd, 2010, 9:51 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

In Humanities we learnt about 'agencies of socialisation' and how they shape a person. That a person is the product of the life they've had, so I'd say there was no specific direct cause of how Voldemort turned out. Different things like, how his personality was in general, and his parents of course.

Voldemort believed Tom abandoned Merope which would obviously fuel his hatred of Muggles. And the fact that Merope gave up and just left Tom in an orphanage, and I'm guessing he didn't receive much love in that place because i'm sure he would've been different if he had. A loving home would've produced a different Voldemort. But I can't help thinking that his 'friends' had something to do with it too, those people at school that used to follow him and worship him, they made him different too because he probably thought after that that he was something special, and was better than everyone else, gave him power over others and whatnot.

But I dunno, that's just what I think.


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Last edited by emmitts; September 4th, 2010 at 12:19 am.
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  #275  
Old September 4th, 2010, 12:11 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Did Slughorn have an effect on Tom Riddle? His special Slug Club. singling out certain students might have given Tom the wrong ideas. Slughorn collected people and used them to gain special favors. I am not sure, it was just an opinion.


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  #276  
Old September 5th, 2010, 2:25 am
TaafeMJ  Male.gif TaafeMJ is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
Did Slughorn have an effect on Tom Riddle? His special Slug Club. singling out certain students might have given Tom the wrong ideas. Slughorn collected people and used them to gain special favors. I am not sure, it was just an opinion.
It's a very interesting idea to think about. But I think by that point, Riddle had already chosen his path.


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  #277  
Old September 5th, 2010, 2:59 am
Kierstoast  Female.gif Kierstoast is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Ultimately I believe himself, though of course many might say his mother.


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  #278  
Old September 5th, 2010, 1:06 pm
MissGranger1979  Female.gif MissGranger1979 is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by Sly_Lady View Post
It's Voldemort's fault.
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Originally Posted by phoenix713 View Post
Agreed. People being responsible for their decisions and actions is one of the major themes in the series.
I think it was definately Voldemort's fault. I think some people are just destined to be evil.

I do think it was encouraged by his lack of family though - he felt abandoned by his father and mother and so this increased his desire to prove himself as a wizard.


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  #279  
Old September 7th, 2010, 6:28 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

To be honest.. I wonder what would have happened if Dumbledore never came to him and told him he was a wizard/about Hogwarts..I mean maybe he would have figured out how to control his powers with time..but would he have learned about all that dark magic or everything he learned in general? If he had never gone to Hogwarts/ met other wizards would he care about pure-bloods so much? Would he want power as bad as he did?


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  #280  
Old September 7th, 2010, 9:58 am
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by Nomsweasley View Post
To be honest.. I wonder what would have happened if Dumbledore never came to him and told him he was a wizard/about Hogwarts..I mean maybe he would have figured out how to control his powers with time..but would he have learned about all that dark magic or everything he learned in general? If he had never gone to Hogwarts/ met other wizards would he care about pure-bloods so much? Would he want power as bad as he did?
I think Riddle would have been a person who manipulated people to get what he wanted. Charming people was not really a magical skill and would work just as well on muggles. Riddle already had rudimentary control over magic to cause people pain. Having such an ability would have made him quite successful in the muggle world. Also, there would be the added danger of uncontrolled magic exploding out of him when he was feeling strong emotions.
All in all, whether he had magic or not, Riddle would have been an extremely dangerous person to deal with.


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