Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Cloak

Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #501  
Old January 2nd, 2012, 8:53 pm
LyraLovegood  Female.gif LyraLovegood is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 2234 days
Location: Left Coast USA
Age: 46
Posts: 994
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixGryffin View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. Harry had an awful childhood but he didn't turn evil.
I think the books imply that the reason Harry was good was that he was conceived in love, and his parents loved him enough to die trying to protect him. Voldemort, however, was conceived not in love but by entrapment of a Muggle by a witch with a love potion. There was no real love between Voldemort's parents, and that was why Voldemort was a sociopath incapable of love.

Which would cast some of the blame on Merope, for misuse of love potions, and some on Tom Riddle Sr., for walking out on his wife and son.

However, the books also emphasise the importance of our choices. I think it would have been difficult for Tom Riddle to make good choices, due to the lack of love in his infancy and formative years. However, he could have chosen to follow the example of good people like Dumbledore. Dumbledore tried to steer Tom in the right direction; Tom chose to follow the path of more power and commiting murder to gain immortality.

So while there were important factors leading Voldemort to the path of evil, he still made his own choices and therefore must accept the lion's share for his own badness IMO.


__________________
"You don't ever have to feel guilty about removing toxic people from your life. It doesn't matter whether someone is a relative, romantic interest, employer, childhood friend, or a new acquaintance--You don't have to make room for people who cause you pain or make you feel small. It's one thing if a person owns up to their behavior and makes an effort to change. But if a person disregards your feelings, ignores your boundaries, and *continues* to treat you in a harmful way, they need to go."
~Danielle Koepke~
~~~ ~~~
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #502  
Old January 2nd, 2012, 10:48 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 2546 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 30
Posts: 2,576
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
However, the books also emphasise the importance of our choices. I think it would have been difficult for Tom Riddle to make good choices, due to the lack of love in his infancy and formative years. However, he could have chosen to follow the example of good people like Dumbledore. Dumbledore tried to steer Tom in the right direction; Tom chose to follow the path of more power and commiting murder to gain immortality.

So while there were important factors leading Voldemort to the path of evil, he still made his own choices and therefore must accept the lion's share for his own badness IMO.
I think there were lots of children in the orphanage who were also abandoned. According to Mrs. Cole, it wasn't unusual for women to come to the orphanage to deliver their babies - and presumably they left them there, then. Did they all grow up to become megalomaniac murderers? I doubt it.

Being abandoned at the orphanage does not account for Voldemort becoming what he did. They were his choices.

Perhaps it's also possible that generations of in-breeding on the Gaunt side of the family left its members prone to instability - Merope, Marvolo and Morfin weren't exactly well-adjusted.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
Reply With Quote
  #503  
Old January 3rd, 2012, 12:44 pm
Torran  Male.gif Torran is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1568 days
Posts: 32
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Voldemort is to blame for Voldemort going bad.


Reply With Quote
  #504  
Old January 29th, 2012, 10:52 am
dmeagher101  Undisclosed.gif dmeagher101 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1121 days
Posts: 27
Why Voldemort became evil

Ok, here is my theory as to why Voldemort was evil. Tom Riddle was born in 1926. He grew up during the interwar years, a period marked by widespread pessimism, uncertainty, and misanthropy. Contrary to the culture of the 19th century, people lost faith in science, technology and industry to solve the world's problems due to the carnage they caused during the First World War. Events such as the Great Depression, World War II and the Holocaust certainly didn't lighten the mood.

Growing up in an orphanage, Riddle was at the bottom of an already disheartening society. I think he developed a very misanthropic view of muggles because of this. When he found out he was a wizard, he was convinced that this magic was "the better way," a solution to the problems caused by muggle society. He dreamed of a perfect society built on magic, rather than crude muggle technology. People would be more equal, as each was automatically endowed with the means to succeed; money and standing matter less when your power comes primarily from your own body. He thought a magically society could better allow the strong to reach the top, while the weak fail.

JKR has said that Voldemort cannot understand love and compassion because of his origins from a love potion. I think this complements his explanation because his lack of love and compassion for anyone allows him to justify the genocidal means to his ends; the feelings of others do not matter in creating his perfect society. He is logical, not compassionate.

I also think he doesn't hate muggle-borns because he thinks their magically inferior, he just believes that they're "tainted" by growing up in the muggle world. Also, their caring for their muggle relatives would put them against his goals of exterminating muggles. I think he only played along with the crazy extremist views of his Death Eaters in order to get their support; in reality, his motivations were somewhat more complex than simple bigotry.

What do you think motivates Voldemort? While I really like Harry Potter, I wish JKR had fleshed him out more; he really just seems to have been "born evil." I wish he had some interesting motivations that would make us sympathize with him more as sort of a tragic villain.


Reply With Quote
  #505  
Old January 29th, 2012, 1:05 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 2450 days
Age: 25
Posts: 1,232
Re: Why Voldemort became evil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmeagher101 View Post
Growing up in an orphanage, Riddle was at the bottom of an already disheartening society. I think he developed a very misanthropic view of muggles because of this. When he found out he was a wizard, he was convinced that this magic was "the better way," a solution to the problems caused by muggle society. He dreamed of a perfect society built on magic, rather than crude muggle technology. People would be more equal, as each was automatically endowed with the means to succeed; money and standing matter less when your power comes primarily from your own body. He thought a magically society could better allow the strong to reach the top, while the weak fail.
It doesn't look like Voldemort cared about any "perfect society" at all. He simply wanted to be the top dog. It was his way or the highway. I do think he believed in magic more than anything else in the world, apart from himself. IMO he saw magic as the be all and end all of everything.

Quote:
JKR has said that Voldemort cannot understand love and compassion because of his origins from a love potion. I think this complements his explanation because his lack of love and compassion for anyone allows him to justify the genocidal means to his ends; the feelings of others do not matter in creating his perfect society. He is logical, not compassionate.
I agree with him looking at things logically. Right and wrong is a moral issue and Voldemort simply didn't care or believe about things like that. Why is it wrong to kill someone ? Because people think its bad ? Because its against the law ? Because human life has some intrinsic value ? IMO Voldemort looked at things with a cold dispassionate attitude and decided that people were simply deluded and brainwashed in believing these things.

Quote:
What do you think motivates Voldemort? While I really like Harry Potter, I wish JKR had fleshed him out more; he really just seems to have been "born evil." I wish he had some interesting motivations that would make us sympathize with him more as sort of a tragic villain.
IMO his motivation was to be the most powerful wizard ever. I think the "perfect society" idea would have been what motivated Dumbledore and Grindelwald but Voldemort didn't care about anyone else other than himself.


Reply With Quote
  #506  
Old January 29th, 2012, 5:29 pm
dmeagher101  Undisclosed.gif dmeagher101 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1121 days
Posts: 27
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

@wolfbrother: But at the end of Deathly Hallows, he talks of making some changes, like only having Slytherin House at Hogwarts. I think he at least had some idea of where he wanted the world to go. And even if he didn't want to change society, I think that seeing the worst of muggles motivated him to become the most powerful wizard so as to "escape."



Last edited by dmeagher101; January 29th, 2012 at 5:42 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #507  
Old January 29th, 2012, 9:46 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 2546 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 30
Posts: 2,576
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmeagher101 View Post
He dreamed of a perfect society built on magic, rather than crude muggle technology. People would be more equal, as each was automatically endowed with the means to succeed; money and standing matter less when your power comes primarily from your own body. He thought a magically society could better allow the strong to reach the top, while the weak fail.
I don't think Voldemort had any intentions of doing anything to make society better. His plans were all about himself and how things would affect him. Other people were merely objects to use to get what he wanted.

Quote:
He is logical, not compassionate.
The two are not mutually exclusive. And while Voldemort comes up with intricate plans, I don't think he's all that logical.

Quote:
I also think he doesn't hate muggle-borns because he thinks their magically inferior, he just believes that they're "tainted" by growing up in the muggle world. Also, their caring for their muggle relatives would put them against his goals of exterminating muggles. I think he only played along with the crazy extremist views of his Death Eaters in order to get their support; in reality, his motivations were somewhat more complex than simple bigotry.
The behaviour of young Tom Riddle suggests otherwise - he has power, and he misuses it. He's harming other children in the orphanage because he can. Not because they've done anything to harm him.
I think it is possible that his extreme hatred of Muggles might have been driven by the belief that his father had abandoned his mother and him.

Quote:
What do you think motivates Voldemort? While I really like Harry Potter, I wish JKR had fleshed him out more; he really just seems to have been "born evil." I wish he had some interesting motivations that would make us sympathize with him more as sort of a tragic villain.




Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
I agree with him looking at things logically. Right and wrong is a moral issue and Voldemort simply didn't care or believe about things like that. Why is it wrong to kill someone ? Because people think its bad ? Because its against the law ? Because human life has some intrinsic value ? IMO Voldemort looked at things with a cold dispassionate attitude and decided that people were simply deluded and brainwashed in believing these things.

I agree. I don't think morals entered into the picture with Voldemort. I don't think he was trying to avenge wrongs done to him in the Muggle world.


Quote:
IMO his motivation was to be the most powerful wizard ever. I think the "perfect society" idea would have been what motivated Dumbledore and Grindelwald but Voldemort didn't care about anyone else other than himself.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmeagher101 View Post
@wolfbrother: But at the end of Deathly Hallows, he talks of making some changes, like only having Slytherin House at Hogwarts. I think he at least had some idea of where he wanted the world to go. And even if he didn't want to change society, I think that seeing the worst of muggles motivated him to become the most powerful wizard so as to "escape."
I think Voldemort saw this as a way of putting his stamp on the wizarding world. Marking his territory. I don't think that getting rid of the other Houses was anything other than a way of demoralising his presumed-defeated opponents.

I think he utilised the anti-Muggleborn prejudice in order to get support. I think he did believe in it, too, because he enjoyed the idea of being important. I don't think it had much to do with seeing badness in the Muggle world. Voldemort inflicted far worse cruelties than he ever saw. Even while in the orphanage, he was bullying other students, traumatising those he took to the cave. He enoyed being more powerful, more important - that's why he thought he was better.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
Reply With Quote
  #508  
Old January 31st, 2012, 1:49 am
dmeagher101  Undisclosed.gif dmeagher101 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1121 days
Posts: 27
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

But if Voldemort wanted to be the most powerful person on Earth, why did he want to kill all muggles. Surely it is better to rule over 7 billion people than it is to rule over whater small number of wizards there are. I think that, in addition to being powerful, he was duly committed to eradicating muggles because of justified (in his own mind) bigotry.


Reply With Quote
  #509  
Old January 31st, 2012, 2:00 am
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 2546 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 30
Posts: 2,576
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmeagher101 View Post
But if Voldemort wanted to be the most powerful person on Earth, why did he want to kill all muggles. Surely it is better to rule over 7 billion people than it is to rule over whater small number of wizards there are. I think that, in addition to being powerful, he was duly committed to eradicating muggles because of justified (in his own mind) bigotry.
I don't think he did want to kill all Muggles. He wanted his followers to be able to kill them for fun, but he didn't want them all dead. Not out of anything to do with conscience or making the world better, though. He needed his supporters to keep him powerful. And for the arrogant bigots with superiority complexes who joined him - if all the Muggles were gone, who would be left for them to feel superior to?

I don't think he wanted all Muggles dead, I think he wanted to be in control of wizarding Britain, and I think he wanted Muggles oppressed, but not all murdered. Even at that, he wouldn't do so openly - I think that he would have known that if the wizarding world was exposed to Muggles, it would put them in danger.

I also doubt that Voldemort had plans to rule over the entire world. I think he would have been all right with a dictatorship of one country. Look how long it took him to take over the Ministry of one country - and that was with influence of wealthy bigots, with spies and with a good knowledge of how that country's wizarding world operated. I don't think he would have managed to do the same to the entire world.

What he carried out was pretty much a terrorist civil war for control of one country.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
Reply With Quote
  #510  
Old February 8th, 2012, 4:56 pm
Halcipher  Female.gif Halcipher is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1044 days
Posts: 91
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

There are a few people you could blame here, but overall it was Tom himself.
But first, the 'Pureblood' worshipping of his mothers side of the family may have affected him in some kind of manner. As they breed with their cousins, maybe at one point even with their own brother or sister, has caused some mental mutations, and quite obviously physical as to Merope's family's appearance.
I feel it's partially Meropes fault. Although I pity her and understand where she is going from when she didn't even try to save her own life, but she should have been brave and raised Tom herself, and show him how to love.
Others theorize that Tom did not feel love because his father was under the love potion when he was concieved. But there are a lot of 'accidents' when for example a pair may be drunk and not thinking in their right minds but you don't see Dark Lords emerging from left to right, when those type of births happen a lot.
I think he was starting to become Voldemort when he was 8 years old, I'm guessing. Since that's when children start to recognize what they can do as a witch or wizard. And while hating the orphanage, he misuses it to his own will.
And when Dumbledore paid him a visit, and it was official that he was 'different' was when the chances of him having a change of heart grew slim. Till then he felt superior to the 'Muggles' and was probably having thoughts of destroying them at the very moment.
I don't get it though. The orphanage didn't seem too bad enought to be capable of ruining anyone so internally and eternally. And the fact that he didn't cry at birth, and made no sound....
But when it was Really REALLY too late, when the last tiny speck of light would die off completley in his heart, was when he split his soul for the first time.
He could feel remorse and reverse it when he split it once, but I wouldn't see that coming. It was a majority of his own fault. Although I don't think he was a rotten apple from the very beggining.


Reply With Quote
  #511  
Old February 8th, 2012, 8:43 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 2546 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 30
Posts: 2,576
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcipher View Post
I think he was starting to become Voldemort when he was 8 years old, I'm guessing. Since that's when children start to recognize what they can do as a witch or wizard. And while hating the orphanage, he misuses it to his own will.
I think he liked having something that made him stand out from the other children. I think he enjoyed wielding that power. I think he enjoyed being able to exert authority and feel superior. I think, if he had been raised in a wizarding family, he wouldn't have developed such a sense of superiority because of magic. Or, if he'd been adopted and raised in a Muggle family, he wouldn't have felt as much need to make himself stand out and feel superior.

Quote:
And when Dumbledore paid him a visit, and it was official that he was 'different' was when the chances of him having a change of heart grew slim. Till then he felt superior to the 'Muggles' and was probably having thoughts of destroying them at the very moment.
I think it was also a shock to him, to find out that he wasn't the only one who could do this. Oh, he believed in magic immediately. But, perhaps it didn't sit too well with him to lose his superiority and be told that there were many others like him, with much more magical expertise, even a wizarding government.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
Reply With Quote
  #512  
Old February 8th, 2012, 10:00 pm
MrSleepyHead's Avatar
MrSleepyHead  Male.gif MrSleepyHead is offline
Snidget of Champions
 
Joined: 3461 days
Location: Hoggy Warty Hogwarts
Posts: 3,038
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think it is possible that his extreme hatred of Muggles might have been driven by the belief that his father had abandoned his mother and him.
I agree, but I find this interesting because there was no way Tom would have known that his father abandoned his mother until he went to Hogwarts and, perhaps, talked to Morfin. How else could he know, since the orphanage did not even know the story? Why would Tom have assumed his mother was abandoned, rather than his father had simply died or was in prison? If Tom thought his father abandoned his mother before he learned that he was magical, I think we would have a huge insight into his character in that he looked for a worst case, condemning scenario for his father. If that were the case, it seems that he never truly thought rationally and only believed what he wanted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I agree. I don't think morals entered into the picture with Voldemort. I don't think he was trying to avenge wrongs done to him in the Muggle world.
For the most part I agree, but I think there is evidence to show that Tom, at least, may have thought himself mistreated. We know he hanged Billy Stubbs's rabbit because of an argument they had, and I would not be surprised if others made fun of him because he was different (whether "different" would be due to his subdued nature or about weird bursts of magic happening around him before he could control it). And perhaps Tom thought that those arguments and teases were enough to justify extreme retaliation on his part. Again, I would only blame Tom for that sort of perspective on the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think he liked having something that made him stand out from the other children. I think he enjoyed wielding that power. I think he enjoyed being able to exert authority and feel superior. I think, if he had been raised in a wizarding family, he wouldn't have developed such a sense of superiority because of magic. Or, if he'd been adopted and raised in a Muggle family, he wouldn't have felt as much need to make himself stand out and feel superior.
This is a good point, and I mostly agree. To me, it indicates why he continued to seek superiority in the wizarding world. Once he left the Muggle world he was no longer unique or "different." He was just one of hundreds of youngsters who could also perform magic. But he likely learned of the uniqueness of being able to speak with snakes early on, rekindling that feeling of importance. And in order to continue to achieve power and superiority over others I could certainly understand why he would have taken the steps he had to become one of the most powerful Dark wizards ever. And it does seem like the end product of Voldemort we see is the effect of Tom's early feeling and desire to be different.

But would you blame another for that perspective, or Tom/Voldemort himself? For me, I think it was Tom's mind that made him seek such power. Certainly the circumstances (i.e. being magical in a nonmagical setting) permitted that feeling to grow, but I believe Tom was responsible for allowing those thoughts to get the better of him.


__________________


A Place to Gather Post-Closing: Please check out the unofficial CoS Students LiveJournal page to keep in touch with CoS members after the forums close: http://cos-students.livejournal.com
WalnutFirebolt138
Reply With Quote
  #513  
Old February 8th, 2012, 10:46 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 2546 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 30
Posts: 2,576
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
I agree, but I find this interesting because there was no way Tom would have known that his father abandoned his mother until he went to Hogwarts and, perhaps, talked to Morfin. How else could he know, since the orphanage did not even know the story? Why would Tom have assumed his mother was abandoned, rather than his father had simply died or was in prison? If Tom thought his father abandoned his mother before he learned that he was magical, I think we would have a huge insight into his character in that he looked for a worst case, condemning scenario for his father. If that were the case, it seems that he never truly thought rationally and only believed what he wanted.
I don't think Voldemort was all that rational. And, in some ways, he did believe exactly what he wanted.
However, when he met Morfin, he got a skewed version of events - Riddle Sr. left Merope and came back to his parents. Nothing about how Merope forced Riddle Sr. and that he was not a willing partner in any relationship with Merope. I think he read that as his Muggle father abandoning him.
Certainly, he had issues with Muggles and Muggle-borns before this. He spent years searching for the Chamber - maybe to prove his superiority as Heir of Slytherin, maybe the attacks on Muggleborns were an added bonus, or something that didn't matter too much once he was exerting his superiority.
The idea that Tom Sr. had abandoned him may have intensified his hatred.

Quote:
For the most part I agree, but I think there is evidence to show that Tom, at least, may have thought himself mistreated. We know he hanged Billy Stubbs's rabbit because of an argument they had, and I would not be surprised if others made fun of him because he was different (whether "different" would be due to his subdued nature or about weird bursts of magic happening around him before he could control it). And perhaps Tom thought that those arguments and teases were enough to justify extreme retaliation on his part. Again, I would only blame Tom for that sort of perspective on the world.
Perhaps. I can imagine there was mistreatment in both directions, but I suppose only the wrongs against Tom himself mattered.

Quote:
This is a good point, and I mostly agree. To me, it indicates why he continued to seek superiority in the wizarding world. Once he left the Muggle world he was no longer unique or "different." He was just one of hundreds of youngsters who could also perform magic. But he likely learned of the uniqueness of being able to speak with snakes early on, rekindling that feeling of importance. And in order to continue to achieve power and superiority over others I could certainly understand why he would have taken the steps he had to become one of the most powerful Dark wizards ever. And it does seem like the end product of Voldemort we see is the effect of Tom's early feeling and desire to be different.
Yeah - Dumbledore told him the day they met that the ability to speak to snakes was unusual, but not unheard of. I think he may have learned just how uncommon the ability was when he went to Hogwarts. It might not have been long at all before he boasted of his ability.

Quote:
But would you blame another for that perspective, or Tom/Voldemort himself? For me, I think it was Tom's mind that made him seek such power. Certainly the circumstances (i.e. being magical in a nonmagical setting) permitted that feeling to grow, but I believe Tom was responsible for allowing those thoughts to get the better of him.
I think he was responsible for it. The situation he grew up in was out of his control, but his behaviour and own choices were his responsibility. There are so many ways in which he could have tried to be different - he could have gone far in any number of fields - politics, magical innovation, business, anything. He chose extreme criminality.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
Reply With Quote
  #514  
Old February 8th, 2012, 11:04 pm
Halcipher  Female.gif Halcipher is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1044 days
Posts: 91
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

The first day in Hogwarts he allready knew he was a decendant of Salazar Slytherin. Which made him even more arrogant. But yes, I agree that in learing that there are many other people like him, he may have felt a little 'betrayed' cause he thought he was different amongst the other children in the orphanage. So he wanted to become superior to his kind, and to be the most 'different' of them all, he strived to 'live forever', so he made 6 horcruxes, (and another without knowing).

By the way, I loved how Harry asked Tom to feel a little remorse so he wouldn't become what he saw at 'Kings Cross". Even after all Voldemort had done to Harry and countless others, do you think Harry felt him pity? Do you think Voldemort deserved to be suffering for eternal after death?

Quote:
We know he hanged Billy Stubbs's rabbit because of an argument they had, and I would not be surprised if others made fun of him because he was different
Mhmmmm, I wonder what type of argument they had and what the deal was. I just can't imagine even as the little Tom Riddle to be arguing with a little kid. :P


Reply With Quote
  #515  
Old February 9th, 2012, 3:53 am
JohanT  Undisclosed.gif JohanT is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 1250 days
Posts: 523
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Personally, I do not believe that Tom Riddle's hatred for Muggles was born partially because his father, a Muggle, abandoned him. I believe his idea of an ideal ancestry was shattered after his discovery of his non-magical parent, and it is because of this primarily that he harbors a grudge towards Tom Riddle Sr. As it is, Riddle showed little respect and regard for his mother, calling her weak because she succumbed to death. I believe his attitude towards Riddle Sr. would have been far more favorable (as favorable as Voldemort gets, that is) if Riddle Sr. had been a wizard.

Of course, this may bring into question the depth of Voldemort's feelings about his father... The abandonment, in his eyes, could be considered contemptuous, and may have shocked him slightly. Why would an inferior creature in terms of power run away from the superior creature? He himself gravitates towards the pull of power, whereas his father seemingly fled from it. Of course, the reason for his abandonment makes sense to the reader, as Riddle Sr. is a Muggle, and therefore naturally afraid of magic, but perhaps to young Tom (who may or may not be completely there mentally), it was yet another aspect that distanced himself from his father. It was incomprehensible in his mind, the fleeing from such power.

To address his evident superiority complex, I think this extends, as has been pointed out, to all groups of people, and this includes witches and wizards. In my opinion, regardless of magical ability, Voldemort enjoys holding power over humanity, and so Muggles were merely inferior because they could not perform magic, and all wizards, save for himself, were inferior because he was the ultimate magician who pushed the boundaries beyond the normal. I honestly don't think that Voldemort's disregard for Muggles is any stronger than his disregard for other wizards. True, other wizards have the potential for earning his respect, but only in ability, not in the innate value of life.


__________________

Last edited by JohanT; February 9th, 2012 at 4:02 am.
Reply With Quote
  #516  
Old February 9th, 2012, 11:24 am
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 2450 days
Age: 25
Posts: 1,232
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcipher View Post
By the way, I loved how Harry asked Tom to feel a little remorse so he wouldn't become what he saw at 'Kings Cross". Even after all Voldemort had done to Harry and countless others, do you think Harry felt him pity? Do you think Voldemort deserved to be suffering for eternal after death?
I think Harry probably felt a little pity for him.

As for deserving to suffer for eternity after death: In general, I personally feel that the punishment doesn't fit the crime here. Eternity is a bit too long.

In Voldemort's case, I'm not sure if he would have been actively suffering. I read it as him being simply stuck helpless in limbo. What's also interesting is that Voldemort already experienced a version of it when he was bodyless for 13 years. It didn't change him one bit, which leads me to believe that even after 100 years of being stuck in limbo, if given a chance, he would do the exact same things again.


Reply With Quote
  #517  
Old February 9th, 2012, 11:54 am
lacerta_lynx  Female.gif lacerta_lynx is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1044 days
Posts: 32
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Dude, I think no one. Merope didn't know what she was doing (if the amortentia theory is right).
And also because I think he didn't become Voldemort -- he was Voldemort since the day he was born, just took a while for him to actually become a Lord Sith... And it's not his fault either.


Reply With Quote
  #518  
Old February 15th, 2012, 1:05 am
TheRedViper  Undisclosed.gif TheRedViper is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 1041 days
Posts: 2
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

A lot of people have said that Voldie chose to be evil (and I think JKR would agree). But that sort of begs the question...*why* did Voldemort choose to become evil and Harry not? I think that it was supposed to be because Harry was loved and Voldemort wasn't. The problem is that neither of them grew up being loved. Harry doesn't remember his parents' sacrifice for him (babies aren't self-conscious that early), for example.

Somebody-or-other (too many posts in this thread!) mentioned how V might have been affected by the period in which he was growing up. This is an interesting point. Perhaps London was being bombed when he asked if he could stay at Hogwarts for the summer. The lady at the orphanage had noticed that V was not entirely a nice little boy, and some of the things V said to Dumbledore confirmed that this was a sadistic child. I think Dumbledore had an opportunity to help V, though, and he didn't take it.

It does seem to me like Voldemort was always that way — or at any rate, he was always bad even though he got worse and worse as he made more horcruxes — and so it's hard for me to blame him entirely for how he turned out. I feel like somebody could have prevented it all.


Reply With Quote
  #519  
Old February 18th, 2012, 8:15 pm
FurryDice's Avatar
FurryDice  Female.gif FurryDice is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 2546 days
Location: Ireland
Age: 30
Posts: 2,576
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

[quote=Halcipher;5977606]The first day in Hogwarts he allready knew he was a decendant of Salazar Slytherin. Which made him even more arrogant. But yes, I agree that in learing that there are many other people like him, he may have felt a little 'betrayed' cause he thought he was different amongst the other children in the orphanage. So he wanted to become superior to his kind, and to be the most 'different' of them all, he strived to 'live forever', so he made 6 horcruxes, (and another without knowing).



[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohanT View Post
I believe his attitude towards Riddle Sr. would have been far more favorable (as favorable as Voldemort gets, that is) if Riddle Sr. had been a wizard.
I think he would have equally resented a wizard for abandoning him. Perhaps moreso, because he would have expected a wizard to try to locate him.

Quote:
Of course, the reason for his abandonment makes sense to the reader, as Riddle Sr. is a Muggle, and therefore naturally afraid of magic, but perhaps to young Tom (who may or may not be completely there mentally), it was yet another aspect that distanced himself from his father. It was incomprehensible in his mind, the fleeing from such power.
I think the abandonment itself, and the fact that his father was a Muggle were more the issue for Riddle than the fleeing from power. Just as a side note, Riddle Sr. didn't just go because he was afraid of magic, he left when he was freed from the love potion that Merope had used to force him into a relationship.

Quote:
True, other wizards have the potential for earning his respect, but only in ability, not in the innate value of life.
And therein lies part of the problem - people only matter if they're useful, if he thinks they're of value, otherwise, it's just fine to murder them. People were merely objects to him. I don't think he had respect for any of them. I think he respected Dumbledore as a rival, but I don't think he had respect for anybody else, ability-wise. I think he appreciated their usefulness, but I don't think it extended to respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lacerta_lynx View Post
Dude, I think no one. Merope didn't know what she was doing (if the amortentia theory is right).
And also because I think he didn't become Voldemort -- he was Voldemort since the day he was born, just took a while for him to actually become a Lord Sith... And it's not his fault either.
Merope was the one who fed Tom Riddle Sr. the love potion and forced him into a relationship with her. I think she was responsible for that crime.
I don't think he was born evil, I think he made evil choices, and became evil. Personally, I hold Tom Riddle responsible for his choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRedViper View Post
A lot of people have said that Voldie chose to be evil (and I think JKR would agree). But that sort of begs the question...*why* did Voldemort choose to become evil and Harry not? I think that it was supposed to be because Harry was loved and Voldemort wasn't. The problem is that neither of them grew up being loved. Harry doesn't remember his parents' sacrifice for him (babies aren't self-conscious that early), for example.
I think that Voldemort decided love wasn't important, that power was all that mattered. It may have started out as sour grapes and a desire to be different, to distinguish himself from the other children at the orphanage.
As for why Harry didn't go down the same path, everyone is different. People make different choices in the same or at least similar circumstances. I don't think the other children in the orphanage went on to become notorious murderers in the Muggle world.

Quote:
Somebody-or-other (too many posts in this thread!) mentioned how V might have been affected by the period in which he was growing up. This is an interesting point. Perhaps London was being bombed when he asked if he could stay at Hogwarts for the summer. The lady at the orphanage had noticed that V was not entirely a nice little boy, and some of the things V said to Dumbledore confirmed that this was a sadistic child. I think Dumbledore had an opportunity to help V, though, and he didn't take it.
I'm not sure what Dumbledore could have done. He gave Tom Riddle a second chance - he didn't tell the other teachers about his behaviour at the orphanage. He says himself he didn't know what Riddle would become, or how far he would go. But the second chance meant that Riddle had a chance to behave differently at Hogwarts, without the staff or students having a poor opinion of him starting off.
At any rate, Dumbledore was not the Headteacher at the time Riddle was in school. Dippet was, and he said that arrangements might have been made for Riddle to stay, if not for the circumstances with the Chamber of Secrets endangering students. Riddle had only himself to blame for being unable to stay at Hogwarts over the summer.


Quote:
It does seem to me like Voldemort was always that way — or at any rate, he was always bad even though he got worse and worse as he made more horcruxes — and so it's hard for me to blame him entirely for how he turned out. I feel like somebody could have prevented it all.
Tom Riddle is responsible for his own choices, IMO.


__________________

Pic by julvett at deviantart http://julvett.deviantart.com/gallery/2984632
"Relationships are like glass; sometimes it's better to leave them broken than to hurt yourself trying to put them back together." Anonymous
"Like this one time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike. It was the most traumatising event of my life and she’s trying to make it about her leg. Like my pain meant nothing." - Cordelia; Buffy the Vampire Slayer S1Ep11.
Reply With Quote
  #520  
Old February 19th, 2012, 4:06 am
JohanT  Undisclosed.gif JohanT is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 1250 days
Posts: 523
Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think he would have equally resented a wizard for abandoning him. Perhaps moreso, because he would have expected a wizard to try to locate him.
Well, I did say "more favorable". That is not necessarily to say that all would be forgiven, but merely that Riddle's attitude towards his father would be more accepting, if his father were a wizard. Riddle seeks the feeling of superiority. Would he not gravitate towards the magical parent, would he not prefer it if his father shared his special abilities, in any case? He looks down upon his mother for succumbing to death, something he believes could be avoided if one were blessed with magical talents. What does this indicate? That Riddle's opinion of his mother is very much focused within her pathetic death, rather than the fact that she left him alone. I do not believe that Riddle was that upset at being abandoned as much as he was just irritated that his father turned out to be a common Muggle.

And would he really have expected a wizard to do as much? I don't think Riddle's perception of his own abandonment had anything to do with "expectations" on his part. The only expectation was that the magical parent, if he truly had one, would not let death befall him/her.

But you may have a point. Riddle's opinion on magic allowing a person to escape death could be interpreted as a delusional explanation as to why he was abandoned by his mother...

Quote:
I think the abandonment itself, and the fact that his father was a Muggle were more the issue for Riddle than the fleeing from power. Just as a side note, Riddle Sr. didn't just go because he was afraid of magic, he left when he was freed from the love potion that Merope had used to force him into a relationship.
I should have been more clear that I was interpreting Riddle's issues in a figurative, thematic sense. Yes, on the surface, it is as simple as his resentment that his father was a Muggle who abandoned him. However, delving deeper into Voldemort's own presence as the ultimate representation of an inhuman supremacy, it makes sense that he would view everything in terms of conceptual power.

Quote:
And therein lies part of the problem - people only matter if they're useful, if he thinks they're of value, otherwise, it's just fine to murder them. People were merely objects to him. I don't think he had respect for any of them. I think he respected Dumbledore as a rival, but I don't think he had respect for anybody else, ability-wise. I think he appreciated their usefulness, but I don't think it extended to respect.
Appreciating their usefulness would extend to appreciating their abilities... The two coincide, as one's abilities determine whether or not one is useful. And I do think that there was a strange form of respect that Voldemort harbored for certain witches and wizards. Voldemort, at times, would find and kill certain enemies, a task usually left to his Death Eaters. I personally believe that such an act on Voldemort's part indicates that he acknowledged their abilities as wizards and witches, and as he was the supreme magical being of them all (in his mind), it was he who would be needed to finish them off.


__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Cloak

Bookmarks

Tags
dada, dippet


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 3:13 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.