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Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?



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  #61  
Old December 4th, 2007, 7:50 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

It could also be genetics: he inherited the Slytherin traits of ambitiousness, deceit, megalomania, and ideas of pureblood supremacy.


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  #62  
Old December 4th, 2007, 8:02 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by High_Lion View Post
But not many people are born to a witch by a love potion deceived muggle.

I only said furthermore, meaning it's one of the reasons why he is as he is.
Voldemort's mother is only significant because she wasn't there. Nothing she did, thought, said, or felt has any bearing on Voldemort's development. He never met her, and knows only that she died, so I can't see how a love potion makes any difference.

Tom Riddle/Voldemort clearly suffered from some sort of disorder. If I had to guess, he simply didn't form attachments the way most children do. He felt neglect and fear because of his institutionalization, and the only coping mechanism he had was to retreat into his own mind and create an ideal persona, one which is special, talented, even omnipotent. This isn't uncommon, and children who have been institutionalized often have trouble interacting with their peers, sometimes avoiding group activities. Tom himself tells us he always knew he was special (a comforting thought when the real world makes you feel anything but), and that he preferred to do things on his own--traveling around London for instance. After having nobody to bond with or depend on, Tom essentially taught himself that he was the only person he could ever truly rely on, and is it any wonder that he literally manifested a transformation from the weak half-blood schoolboy to the immortal Dark Lord? It's also not surprising he never emotionally bonded or even necessarily liked even his ostensibly closest acquaintances, the Death Eaters. Voldemort appears narcissistic and he has no regard for the lives of others. Blame is sort of irrelevant though, when you consider that nobody had the power to change any of it by the time Tom Riddle became Voldemort.

As Voldemort's character goes, I think people (even JKR to an extent) overestimate the capacity to flip a switch and change--choices exist, but what those choices are seem to be linked to early childhood development. Clearly Voldemort couldn't find any remorse, and I'd have found it implausible to the point of comedy if he had.



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  #63  
Old December 4th, 2007, 8:39 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Voldemort's mother is only significant because she wasn't there. Nothing she did, thought, said, or felt has any bearing on Voldemort's development. He never met her, and knows only that she died, so I can't see how a love potion makes any difference.

It's simple what JKR said. Harry was conceived in love, Voldemort wasn't.


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  #64  
Old December 4th, 2007, 12:45 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by High_Lion
It's simple what JKR said. Harry was conceived in love, Voldemort wasn't.
That is meant to be symbolic that Voldemort was spawned from a union of deception. There are events beyond his control that had led to his birth and ultimately to his villainy. There is no one to blame for it but Voldemort himself because he made a choice that shaped the course of his life and what he believed in.


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  #65  
Old December 4th, 2007, 2:15 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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That is meant to be symbolic that Voldemort was spawned from a union of deception. There are events beyond his control that had led to his birth and ultimately to his villainy. There is no one to blame for it but Voldemort himself because he made a choice that shaped the course of his life and what he believed in.
I agree. In my original post way back at the start of the thread i mentioned it.

One of the main themes in the books is choices. Voldemort ultimately chooses to be like that. We can look at events and beings that could influence his choices, but ultimately the blame lies with Voldemort.


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  #66  
Old December 5th, 2007, 4:16 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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That is meant to be symbolic that Voldemort was spawned from a union of deception. There are events beyond his control that had led to his birth and ultimately to his villainy. There is no one to blame for it but Voldemort himself because he made a choice that shaped the course of his life and what he believed in.
But, the fact that Voldemort was born in, as people dub it, "deception" has a lot to do with who he became. Sure, you can compare Harry and Voldemort because of the similiar hardships they faced during their youth but this comparison cannot be used as evidence. You guys are ignoring an important factor: character. Harry, when growing up, was the complete opposite of Voldemort. While Tom Riddle was ambitious and attention-seeking, Harry was subdued and shy. Riddle had this thirst to prove himself when he was a child, and as time went on, he did more and more outrageous things to be recognized by his peers. Harry, on the other hand, wallowed in his loneliness and accepted it. If Voldemort had been born into a loving family, he would never have this thirst to prove himself because he would have a family who genuinely cared for him. His ideals would have remained firm, and not twisted and miscontrued by the urge to be recognized. I really think that Voldemort would not have been the darkest sorcerer ever to plague the world if he had just received the right sort of childhood. The bitter resentment would never have existed in his soul, the same resentment that transformed him from a human into a demon.


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Old December 5th, 2007, 4:42 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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But, the fact that Voldemort was born in, as people dub it, "deception" has a lot to do with who he became. Sure, you can compare Harry and Voldemort because of the similiar hardships they faced during their youth but this comparison cannot be used as evidence. You guys are ignoring an important factor: character. Harry, when growing up, was the complete opposite of Voldemort. While Tom Riddle was ambitious and attention-seeking, Harry was subdued and shy. Riddle had this thirst to prove himself when he was a child, and as time went on, he did more and more outrageous things to be recognized by his peers. Harry, on the other hand, wallowed in his loneliness and accepted it. If Voldemort had been born into a loving family, he would never have this thirst to prove himself because he would have a family who genuinely cared for him. His ideals would have remained firm, and not twisted and miscontrued by the urge to be recognized. I really think that Voldemort would not have been the darkest sorcerer ever to plague the world if he had just received the right sort of childhood. The bitter resentment would never have existed in his soul, the same resentment that transformed him from a human into a demon.

That is a good point, but many children who are brought up in orphanges, or do not receive love and attention turn out just fine. Harry for example, the only difference there is, as you said, Toms ambitious nature. And though it is a good point, it was his nature, not nurture that turned him into the man he was.. which may be exactly what your saying, lol.

I don't think that he did the things that he did while he was a child for attention, imo. He would torture the kids, make them do horrifying things for his own amusment, he was facinated by evil, even then. He wanted to lead, and he wanted to take the power her longed for by force, not anything respectable.


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  #68  
Old December 5th, 2007, 5:06 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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That is a good point, but many children who are brought up in orphanges, or do not receive love and attention turn out just fine. Harry for example, the only difference there is, as you said, Toms ambitious nature. And though it is a good point, it was his nature, not nurture that turned him into the man he was.. which may be exactly what your saying, lol.
I think there was something in Tom's nature that made an orphanage a particularly bad place for him to grow up.

HBP, "The Secret Riddle"
"He's a funny boy".
"Yes," said Dumbledore. "I thought he might be".
"He was a funny baby too. He hardly ever cried, you know."


This unusual feature can hardly be ascribed to ambition, in a newborn baby. It's an aspect of his nature, but not one that he had, at that time, any control over. The likely effect of it, was that he received less attention from the staff, who while well-meaning, were overworked. I think, as a result, that he never developed a bond with an adult as a baby, and that is known to have serious consequences for the social development of humans.

Harry had the attention of two loving parents in the key first year of life.


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  #69  
Old December 5th, 2007, 5:21 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I think there was something in Tom's nature that made an orphanage a particularly bad place for him to grow up.

HBP, "The Secret Riddle"
"He's a funny boy".
"Yes," said Dumbledore. "I thought he might be".
"He was a funny baby too. He hardly ever cried, you know."


This unusual feature can hardly be ascribed to ambition, in a newborn baby. It's an aspect of his nature, but not one that he had, at that time, any control over. The likely effect of it, was that he received less attention from the staff, who while well-meaning, were overworked. I think, as a result, that he never developed a bond with an adult as a baby, and that is known to have serious consequences for the social development of humans.

Harry had the attention of two loving parents in the key first year of life.
I didn't think of that, nor did I remember the part about him rarley crying, and I think you have a good point. But you are furthering my point, if you didn't understand, lol. He was evil-natured even as a very small boy, and obviously an odd child as well, imo.


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Old December 5th, 2007, 5:27 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Well, personally, I do not accept that an infant CAN be evil natured. What Tom was, as I see it, was especially needy or vulnerable, and his needs were not met by the orphanage. Something for which he is in no way to blame. Both his parents? Muggle society? Wizard society (since Tom's name was written in the book - he got the letter)? The oprhanage staff? Fate? All bear some responsibility, in my opinion, for Tom turning out a little boy who did not want love or friends or affection.


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  #71  
Old December 5th, 2007, 5:40 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

Well as an infant, I agree, but as he got older his personality and tendencies were shaped completely by himself, which is to say because of lack of love and attention. Who is to blame though, I really can't say. I think he chose the way he wanted to be, either out of the lack of things previously stated, or because he justed wanted it to be that way. The later, is what I realy believe though.

Do you think it was his lack of love, that made him want to be alone, and secluded? To say that Voldemort was insecure would be taking it to far, imo, but something to that effect maybe.


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Old December 5th, 2007, 5:44 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

An infant though, from the very begining can choose wrongly. I think Voldemort was one of them. We see kids who think in different ways in similar circumstances, very young kids; even though parents do advise them rightly; here Tom was thinking about how to manipulate others, how to make the others fear him, very early on imo.

Bu 11, he has made the rabbit hang from the rafters and he has controlled his magical abilities to an extent he was able to affect two kids who were never the same again.

He imo chose power, and the ability to instill fear in others very young.

I think he would have been the same even if his mother had lived and his father had accepted him. He would have been far worse imo without the few insecurities he had now, far more evil, I think.

JMO


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  #73  
Old December 5th, 2007, 6:03 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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I think he would have been the same even if his mother had lived and his father had accepted him. He would have been far worse imo without the few insecurities he had now, far more evil, I think.


I agree. It was in his nature, the way he was born, so to say, to be evil, manipulative, leadership-prone, etc.

Though, it is a possibility that had he been raised by his father as well, he would not have been for the purification of wizards. It was when he learned that his father was a muggle, that he became predjiduce against all muggles. Although he was immensly clever at that age, he might not have understood that there were differences in all people. I think learning that his muggle father, abandoned his witch mother is one of the things that shaped him to be Lord Voldemort. He shed his "muggle name" because he shared it with his father.

That being said, had he grown up with a loving father, which Tom Sr. incidenatly was not, he might not have let the hatred of muggles lead him in his quest for power. He might have turned out slightly differently, but probably not in the least bit normal.


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  #74  
Old December 5th, 2007, 11:44 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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I agree. It was in his nature, the way he was born, so to say, to be evil, manipulative, leadership-prone, etc.

Though, it is a possibility that had he been raised by his father as well, he would not have been for the purification of wizards. It was when he learned that his father was a muggle, that he became predjiduce against all muggles. Although he was immensly clever at that age, he might not have understood that there were differences in all people. I think learning that his muggle father, abandoned his witch mother is one of the things that shaped him to be Lord Voldemort. He shed his "muggle name" because he shared it with his father.

That being said, had he grown up with a loving father, which Tom Sr. incidenatly was not, he might not have let the hatred of muggles lead him in his quest for power. He might have turned out slightly differently, but probably not in the least bit normal.
And that's where I disagree. If Voldemort had been nutrtured as a child with love and blessed with caring parents, he would have turned out very differently, I think. Remember, the one thing Voldemort could never understand was love. This was probably because of his lack of a childhood; his lack of a family. If he experienced what love was, he wouldn't have been so twisted, so dark, so resentful. Remember, in the seventh book, when Harry was on the threshold between reality and the afterlife, at King's Cross, he and Dumbledore met what I believe to be the true soul of Voldemort: a disfigured baby. Voldemort was indeed simply an undeveloped mind that clung to what he did know: lonelieness, suffering, hate, and despise. And the path to becoming the darkest sorcerer ever may seem like a rather purposeful journey, but I like to see it as a sort of chain reaction. Dominoes. And it all stemmed back to Voldemort's childhood. If he had just a glimpse of what love was, what a family was, perhaps this could have straightened any discrepencies, or at least better, in Tom's morals. Voldemort was, really, just a terribly misguided boy.


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  #75  
Old December 5th, 2007, 11:52 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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And that's where I disagree. If Voldemort had been nutrtured as a child with love and blessed with caring parents, he would have turned out very differently, I think. Remember, the one thing Voldemort could never understand was love. This was probably because of his lack of a childhood; his lack of a family. If he experienced what love was, he wouldn't have been so twisted, so dark, so resentful. Remember, in the seventh book, when Harry was on the threshold between reality and the afterlife, at King's Cross, he and Dumbledore met what I believe to be the true soul of Voldemort. I disfigured baby. Voldemort was indeed simply an undeveloped mind that clung to what he did know: lonelieness, suffering, hate, and despise. And the path to becoming the darkest sorcerer ever may seem like a rather purposeful journey, but I like to see it as a sort of chain reaction. Dominoes. And it all stemmed back to Voldemort's childhood. If he had just a glimpse of what love was, what a family was, perhaps this could have straightened any discrepencies, or at least better, in Tom's morals. Voldemort was, really, just a terribly misguided boy.

I'm not sure if love would have been enough to change his complete outcome. Had he had loving parents, he might have turned out slightly different, but parenting can't really be held accountable for how each child turns out. My parents are complete opisties of me for example, they have different ideals and morals, yet I have my own, and I have shaped my own life by my own morals, although they did stem from what I was tought growing up. Tom Riddle is no different, imo. He would have still enjoyed torturing people, still wanted to rule, and would have still wanted control and power, although he would have understood love, and might have been able to defeat Harry. Therefor giving us no Harry Potter at all and nothing to speculate about... lol. Jmo, o' course.


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  #76  
Old December 6th, 2007, 1:20 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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I'm not sure if love would have been enough to change his complete outcome. Had he had loving parents, he might have turned out slightly different, but parenting can't really be held accountable for how each child turns out. My parents are complete opisties of me for example, they have different ideals and morals, yet I have my own, and I have shaped my own life by my own morals, although they did stem from what I was tought growing up. Tom Riddle is no different, imo. He would have still enjoyed torturing people, still wanted to rule, and would have still wanted control and power, although he would have understood love, and might have been able to defeat Harry. Therefor giving us no Harry Potter at all and nothing to speculate about... lol. Jmo, o' course.
But that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Tom would have been just like his parents if he had a loving family. What I'm trying to get at is that the love that both of the parents gave to him would have changed him. It would have made him realize how horrendous his acts were. Voldemort was terribbly ignorant, he hated things he did not understand. And since love was on the top of the list, he scorned it because he never experienced it. And because he never experienced it, and all this hatred and resentment built up inside of him, he was unable to give it either. If Tom had been given just a dust of love, perhaps he could understand it. As I said before, Tom is just a terribly misguided boy. Voldemort is the manifestation of a series of malevolent and sad coincedences.


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Old December 6th, 2007, 2:41 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

It was his choices, clearly, that made him evil, but I am certain that there was something of an inherited madness -- perhaps a paranoia or narcissism that was inherited through his Gaunt relatives. They were all unstable and prone to violence, we are led to believe. His mother, while more docile, was herself not above forcing her will on another person. He was certainly intelligent, but many people with sociopathic tendencies are.


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Old December 6th, 2007, 2:54 am
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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It was his choices, clearly, that made him evil, but I am certain that there was something of an inherited madness -- perhaps a paranoia or narcissism that was inherited through his Gaunt relatives. They were all unstable and prone to violence, we are led to believe. His mother, while more docile, was herself not above forcing her will on another person. He was certainly intelligent, but many people with sociopathic tendencies are.
I don't believe mental characteristics an be passed on through birth. All Gaunts were probably like that because they grew up with their parents, who had that trait. And many people grow up with the same traits their parents have because they are constantly around their own parents. Voldemort never had any parents who lived with him, so I don't see how any of them could have passed on a characterstic. Unless, of course, you were saying it was a mental illness that ailed all Gaunts.

And yes, it was his choices that made him evil. But those choices were made because of otuside circumstances, like his lack of a family. His lack of love. His lack of understanding.


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Old December 6th, 2007, 1:20 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

He had it in him,thats for sure, genetics play a big role here.Then,his mothers lack of love ...
And then himself,he choose to be bad ,he is responsible for what he became.


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Old December 6th, 2007, 7:27 pm
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Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?

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It's simple what JKR said. Harry was conceived in love, Voldemort wasn't.
I'm not so sure about that, High Lion. Merope was in love with Tom Riddle, and Tom himself was bewitched into "loving" her enough to marry her. Yes, the union was based on deception, but there was love in it. Maybe if Merope had lived, she'd have shown, and taught, love to her son.

As to the two boys growing up, one knowing love and one not, I beg to differ. Harry didn't have much love from the Dursleys (to say the least), and I'm sure Tom was better cared for at the orphanage than Harry was. (I made that point earlier.) Harry was loved and coddled for the first year of his life, but how much of that did he remember? For 10 years he was neglected, abused, bullied, underfed. Yet he turned out a sweet little boy, ready to befriend and help others. He never used his powers to take revenge on his tormentors, be it the Dursleys or Dudley's gang.

Though the circumstances of his birth and his childhood did shape Voldemort, still it was his choices that define him. The way he used his powers to terrorize the other kids (who hadn't been mean to him as far as we know) at the orphanage, the choices he made turning to the Dark Arts, all those were his. I don't think we can put the blame on his parents' failed marriage or on his being brought up in an orphanage. If all unloved orphans from dysfunctional families turned out to be Voldemorts, we'd be in big trouble! **shudder**


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