Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by eliza101

It could very well be that Aberforth joined up after he threw Snape out of the inn.

We do know, however, that Aberforth passed along information to Albus, as early as when Voldemort paid a visit to Albus Dumbledore to request a post in the Hogwarts staff the second time. Knowledge that Death Eaters, Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, Dolohov - awaited his return at the Hog's Head. It appears Aberforth is well-established as supplying details he overhears in regard to Voldemort and DE's, when he threw Snape out. Perhaps fairly likely he was an early member of the original Order.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

We do know, however, that Aberforth passed along information to Albus, as early as when Voldemort paid a visit to Albus Dumbledore to request a post in the Hogwarts staff the second time. Knowledge that Death Eaters, Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, Dolohov - awaited his return at the Hog's Head. It appears Aberforth is well-established as supplying details he overhears in regard to Voldemort and DE's, when he threw Snape out. Perhaps fairly likely he was an early member of the original Order.

Or perhaps he simply passed information on to his brother. They could have had an understanding develop over the years. It had been a long time since the fight. People do get over things that happened in their youth.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by eliza101

Albus could not/would not break the law. Death Eaters and Voldemort broke the law.

I think Dumbledore would and he probably did over the years. One would be to in OOTP when he evaded arrest by the Aurors and instead preferred to be on the run. In matters of war, I guess Dumbledore would not be averse to breaking a few rules if it meant questioning eavesdroppers, especially when he had heard something he considered important IMO.

If you don't have the right, you can't. It's as simple as that. You may want to, but you can't and uphold the law at the same time. Dumbledore was on the side of law and order.

Dumbledore was on the side that stood against Voldemort. A young man had eavesdropped on a Prophecy concerning the downfall of Voldemort, who Dumbledore was trying to defeat; the question IMO is would Dumbledore question the young man or not, since canon says he was caught and brought to Dumbledore's presence.

I think he would have; I would have also assume he would have erased the young man's memory; if he did not (it's canon he did not, that Voldemort heard a part of the memory) then Dumbledore for some reason thought it would help the Order, the WW allowed eavesdropper to leave with what he heard. I think there is enough in canon to suggest that. Dumbledore was Machiavellian and he was clever enough and at that time probably desperate enough to use anything which he may have thought would help him in the war.

He thought a part of the Prophecy reaching Voldemort would help the WW in some way, where Voldemort would completely believe in the Prophecy and fulfil it IMO.

Dumbledore had reason to be suspicious and he protected Trelawny because of that suspicion. As he told Harry so many Prophecys do not come to anything. He had to wait and see if this one did.

What did Dumbledore have to be suspicious of?

But then there's those pesky human rights and a person's right to come and go freely.

In the muggle world. And it was not working very properly in the muggle world for Harry stayed in a cupboard beneath the stairs for 10 years with no one to help him, wearing clothes that should have been noticed when his cousin from the same home was wearing good ones IMO.

I really don't think Dumbledore would think he was violating human rights when he questioned a young man who eavesdropped on a private conversation.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

In the muggle world. And it was not working very properly in the muggle world for Harry stayed in a cupboard beneath the stairs for 10 years with no one to help him, wearing clothes that should have been noticed when his cousin from the same home was wearing good ones IMO.

I really don't think Dumbledore would think he was violating human rights when he questioned a young man who eavesdropped on a private conversation.

And even if DD were violating Snape's human rights, who's going to turn him in or arrest him for it?

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

And even if DD were violating Snape's human rights, who's going to turn him in or arrest him for it?

No one IMO. And Dumbledore would do just as he pleased. If something was important to him, I can't see him keep quiet because his actions may step on the boundaries of the law.

[X_Bumblebee_X]

So the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape.
Firstly, Dumbledore taught Snape. He saw the skinny, unloved little boy with greasy curtains for hair grow from 11 years old. Dumbledore knew all his strengths and weaknesses. He saw James Potter and his friends pick on Snape, and would have known about the Whomping Willow at Fullmoon incident with the marauders. He would have known about Snape's close friendship with Lily and if Dumbledore is the kind of man I believe him to be he would be able to spot Snape's love for Lily, at least his attraction. I do not think they had much contact during Snape's school years but I imagine that when certain students are talking about becoming Death Eaters, however quiet they whisper, their voices still carry to Dumbledore's ear. Dumbledore has great gut instincts and would know who to keep an eye on.
After leaving school and joining the Death Eaters, I think that Dumbledore and Snape had minimal contact, except for the few times we see in the books and probably a few times Snape was sent to deliver a message from Voldemort. When Snape meets him on the night they join forces, I think the tables turn drastically in their relationship, when Snape says he will do anything if Dumbledore will protect Lily, Dumbledore, I think, instinctively knows he is genuine, and is proved right when he sees Snape's first reaction to her death. Their relationship would have been strained slightly with Lily's demise as Snape, I think, would think he wasted his time asking for Dumbledore's help. Bitterness and anger would very possibly creep in, however, I think Dumbledore would be able to sense that in Snape and remind him that the way to make sure Lily's death was honoured properly, was to protect Harry, and help him beat Voldemort. I think Snape, with Dumbledore's influence over 13 Voldemort-free years, would have his priorities straight, and would fully understand that he would be remembered in the same thoughts as Lily Evans when he is mentioned.
I do not think that Dumbledore controlled Snape in the slightest. I think in the beginning, just before the attack on the Potters, Dumbledore would have been giving strict orders and making sure Snape adhered to them exactly, but I think that his love for Lily fueled him to do right by Dumbledore.
Their most beautiful moment together is, in my opinion, the look of revulsion on Snape's face, then Dumbledore saying his name, then begging him, "Please". I love that moment because, when you first read it, your instincts are screaming at you that this just can't happen, however your eyes are reading the words hungrily to find out what happens next, but when you look at if after reading the whole series, you understand the look of revulsion to be shame for what he had to do, the plea was for Snape to end it, and Dumbledore calling him Severus in front of Death Eaters and invisible Harry, shows he sees Snape as an equal, which to me implies trust that he will still remain loyal even after Dumbledore is gone. By the time Snape is conversing with the painting in the Headmaster's office I think their relationship would have developed a comical, "Old Married Couple" theme to it. They had discussed the same thing day in day out for years so I can sense the tension between them. But then this is just how I see these two together.............

[ReelBigFish]

Originally Posted by X_Bumblebee_X

So the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape.
Firstly, Dumbledore taught Snape. He saw the skinny, unloved little boy with greasy curtains for hair grow from 11 years old. Dumbledore knew all his strengths and weaknesses. He saw James Potter and his friends pick on Snape, and would have known about the Whomping Willow at Fullmoon incident with the marauders. He would have known about Snape's close friendship with Lily and if Dumbledore is the kind of man I believe him to be he would be able to spot Snape's love for Lily, at least his attraction. I do not think they had much contact during Snape's school years but I imagine that when certain students are talking about becoming Death Eaters, however quiet they whisper, their voices still carry to Dumbledore's ear. Dumbledore has great gut instincts and would know who to keep an eye on.
After leaving school and joining the Death Eaters, I think that Dumbledore and Snape had minimal contact, except for the few times we see in the books and probably a few times Snape was sent to deliver a message from Voldemort. When Snape meets him on the night they join forces, I think the tables turn drastically in their relationship, when Snape says he will do anything if Dumbledore will protect Lily, Dumbledore, I think, instinctively knows he is genuine, and is proved right when he sees Snape's first reaction to her death. Their relationship would have been strained slightly with Lily's demise as Snape, I think, would think he wasted his time asking for Dumbledore's help. Bitterness and anger would very possibly creep in, however, I think Dumbledore would be able to sense that in Snape and remind him that the way to make sure Lily's death was honoured properly, was to protect Harry, and help him beat Voldemort. I think Snape, with Dumbledore's influence over 13 Voldemort-free years, would have his priorities straight, and would fully understand that he would be remembered in the same thoughts as Lily Evans when he is mentioned.
I do not think that Dumbledore controlled Snape in the slightest. I think in the beginning, just before the attack on the Potters, Dumbledore would have been giving strict orders and making sure Snape adhered to them exactly, but I think that his love for Lily fueled him to do right by Dumbledore.
Their most beautiful moment together is, in my opinion, the look of revulsion on Snape's face, then Dumbledore saying his name, then begging him, "Please". I love that moment because, when you first read it, your instincts are screaming at you that this just can't happen, however your eyes are reading the words hungrily to find out what happens next, but when you look at if after reading the whole series, you understand the look of revulsion to be shame for what he had to do, the plea was for Snape to end it, and Dumbledore calling him Severus in front of Death Eaters and invisible Harry, shows he sees Snape as an equal, which to me implies trust that he will still remain loyal even after Dumbledore is gone. By the time Snape is conversing with the painting in the Headmaster's office I think their relationship would have developed a comical, "Old Married Couple" theme to it. They had discussed the same thing day in day out for years so I can sense the tension between them. But then this is just how I see these two together.............

Where is the Canon for the argument that DD knew that Snape was skinny unloved and his strengths and weaknesses. Where is the Canon that DD saw James and friends pick on Snape apart from the Werewolf Prank and DDs clear statement that his memory was different to that time than Snapes. OF course DD knew about the prank but he also knew that Snape was breaking rules there too sneaking around at night and doing what he should not have been doing. I tend to think DD would have been angry at Snape for trying to hurt Remus after all DD had done to get Remus at the School. DD runs a School for many wizards and where is the Canon he knew what Lily meant to Snape at School??

I am curious as to why you think their relationship would have been strained after Lilys death as it was Snapes fault she was dead (partly) and DD had done what he could. DD is not to blame for Lilys death that rests on Snape, Pettigrew and Voldemort. Snape had no right to bitterness and anger towards DD because of the Potters death and IMO DD did nothing wrong there and did his utmost to save them. DD had the right to bitterness and anger not Snape.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by ReelBigFish

Where is the Canon for the argument that DD knew that Snape was skinny unloved and his strengths and weaknesses. Where is the Canon that DD saw James and friends pick on Snape apart from the Werewolf Prank and DDs clear statement that his memory was different to that time than Snapes.

I would presume that Dumbledore took some interest in the students in his school, he is considered the greatest Headmaster Hogwarts ever had. That James was the leader of a gang of troublemakers was the opinion of the Assitant Headmistress, who I presume would have shared this. Thus I think the two suggestions you question above are more likely true than not.

I tend to think DD would have been angry at Snape for trying to hurt Remus after all DD had done to get Remus at the School.

Where is the canon for your assertion that Snape was trying to hurt Remus? Or that Albus thought so?

Regaring Lily, if Dumbledore cared to once Snape came to him, he had the means to check on his story. Lily was an Order member and Albus could have asked her what she knew about Snape. She might only have offered that they knew each other in the Muggle world and were best friends for a time, but even that would support the story! Or, he did not care (which would mean he found Snape convincing without seeking supporting evidence).

[ReelBigFish]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I would presume that Dumbledore took some interest in the students in his school, he is considered the greatest Headmaster Hogwarts ever had. That James was the leader of a gang of troublemakers was the opinion of the Assitant Headmistress, who I presume would have shared this. Thus I think the two suggestions you question above are more likely true than not.



Where is the canon for your assertion that Snape was trying to hurt Remus? Or that Albus thought so?

Regaring Lily, if Dumbledore cared to once Snape came to him, he had the means to check on his story. Lily was an Order member and Albus could have asked her what she knew about Snape. She might only have offered that they knew each other in the Muggle world and were best friends for a time, but even that would support the story! Or, he did not care (which would mean he found Snape convincing without seeking supporting evidence).

[staff edit] DD was quite clear to Snape that his memory of the Werewolf Prank was intact and he believed Sirius at that time in POA about the Animagi. My Canon for Snape hurting Remus - in POA when they talk about the prank when Snape is under the invisibity cloal listening to them and when Sirius and Remus talk about Snape following them around trying to get them expelled Snape did not deny that when he emerged from under the cloak.

[X_Bumblebee_X]

[staff edit]
To answer yur questions, my canon for DD knowing all about Snape is the simple fact that DD taught him. He can see, and can read people better than most.
Secondly, I doubt that troublemakers, however much they hide under the radar, can escape DD. He was headmaster, he would be told, and be made aware of as much as possible in that school.

I disagree that DD would have been angry with Snape about the Lupin prank because Dumbledore understands more than most how people can make mistakes.

I think their relationship would have been strained for only a short time as my post says, but because of Snape's emotion. When the love of ones life is so cruelly taken away from a person, your life is controlled by your heart. You feel anger, resentment, bitterness, gult etc etc etc, and that is all I meant.

If you look at it from Snape's point of view he did have reason to be resentful. He put all that faith in DD and Lily still died. Again, I do not say anything is fact, I only think that Snape could feel that at that time in his life. Remember his heart was broken at that time and it would be easier for him to blame DD and to dwell on what happened.

[meenaxi]

For most of the series I felt their relationship to be very cold and business like and manipulative. Dumbledore knew snape's weakness and use it. snape ddint his thing for his own reasons knowing Dumbledore had the power over voldy.
never felt they came to like or respect each other. never felt snape came to respect dumbledore's views on lot of things.
The only scenes of their I like were in TPT, snape when he is tending to DD's curse caused by the ring and he is kind of scolding DD for wearing the ring. felt a personal connection between them there
And second when he tells snape about killing him, and snape responds with "do you want me to do it now or you need some time to compose an epitah"

[ReelBigFish]

Originally Posted by X_Bumblebee_X

I am not basing my ananlysis on canon This is one one the reasons I had for making assumptions about Dumbledore, however I don't think that you need canon to base every theory. It is excellent to find clues that back up a theory but the seven books do not cover EVERYTHING. JK has been diverse enough in her writing to leave us with many theories to speculate further.

[staff edit]

To answer yur questions, my canon for DD knowing all about Snape is the simple fact that DD taught him. He can see, and can read people better than most.
Secondly, I doubt that troublemakers, however much they hide under the radar, can escape DD. He was headmaster, he would be told, and be made aware of as much as possible in that school.

I disagree that DD would have been angry with Snape about the Lupin prank because Dumbledore understands more than most how people can make mistakes.

I think their relationship would have been strained for only a short time as my post says, but because of Snape's emotion. When the love of ones life is so cruelly taken away from a person, your life is controlled by your heart. You feel anger, resentment, bitterness, gult etc etc etc, and that is all I meant.

If you look at it from Snape's point of view he did have reason to be resentful. He put all that faith in DD and Lily still died. Again, I do not say anything is fact, I only think that Snape could feel that at that time in his life. Remember his heart was broken at that time and it would be easier for him to blame DD and to dwell on what happened.

[staff edit]

If DD had a nose for troublemakers then he clearly did not see the Marauders as troublemakers and accepted their explanations.

Well IMO even though it is not Canon and just my opinion I could see DD being really angry at Snape for what he did because to Remus as DD made the arrangements for Remus to attend School and ensure his safety and that his fellow students would not know as to protect Remus. Snape decided to disregard several rules all to get Remus expelled so IMO and my theory is that DD had every reason and right to be angry at Snape for all those reasons. Remus was just as much a wizard as Snape and had a right to be there and not be discovered given that the School had set up a plan. Snape did NOT make a mistake here at all he delibarately IMO broke several rules to get to discover what Remus was up to and it was nothing to do with him.

You may say Lily was the love of Snapes life I do not agree and cannot forget the fact that it was partly his fault she died and it was 100% NOT DDs fault she died at all he did his utmost to protect her. Why should their relationship be strained when it was Snape who caused the situation not DD. To say he put all that faith in DD is unfair IMO as DD never once said he would make sure she did not die he made no guarantees and put plans in place and DD was betrayed just as much if not more than Snape given that the SK was a member of the Order. If Snapes heart was broken it was his own doing not DD and to blame DD would make him petty and selfish for not looking at his own actions. DD was not to blame for the Potters death that was on Snape, Pettigrew and Voldemort.

[Melaszka]

Please refrain from telling other posters what they are and are not allowed to post - that's the staff's job, not yours. Any further posts where members try to tell each other what the rules are or how they should be analysing the text will be deleted and points issued.

Also, do not tell other posters that there is no canon to support what they have said - they may have found something in the text that you missed. By all means ask them (politely) if they have canon to support their point.

On the other hand, please remember to either cite the canon on which you are basing any points or make it clear that you are speculating.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by X_Bumblebee_X

I think their relationship would have been strained for only a short time as my post says, but because of Snape's emotion. When the love of ones life is so cruelly taken away from a person, your life is controlled by your heart. You feel anger, resentment, bitterness, gult etc etc etc, and that is all I meant.

If you look at it from Snape's point of view he did have reason to be resentful. He put all that faith in DD and Lily still died. Again, I do not say anything is fact, I only think that Snape could feel that at that time in his life. Remember his heart was broken at that time and it would be easier for him to blame DD and to dwell on what happened.

We see how distraught Snape was on hearing of Lily's death.


...something was making a terrible sound, like a wounded animal. Snape was slumped forwards in a chair and Dumbledore was standing over him looking grim. After a moment or two, Snape raised his face, and he looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery since leaving the wild hilltop.(DH, The Prince's Tale)

So I think it is possible that Snape did feel anger towards Dumbledore at that time. This has nothing to do in my opinion with blame, but simply that anger is a part of the natural greiving process, and I think it would be natural for Snape to direct his anger at Dumbledore at this time. I also think that Dumbledore would have been able to cope with this,and would be expecting it, as he did with Harry's anger after Sirius died. In Snape's case Dumbledore asks him to help him protect Harry, giving him something else to focus on and to live for.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

We see how distraught Snape was on hearing of Lily's death.


...something was making a terrible sound, like a wounded animal. Snape was slumped forwards in a chair and Dumbledore was standing over him looking grim. After a moment or two, Snape raised his face, and he looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery since leaving the wild hilltop.(DH, The Prince's Tale)

So I think it is possible that Snape did feel anger towards Dumbledore at that time. This has nothing to do in my opinion with blame, but simply that anger is a part of the natural greiving process, and I think it would be natural for Snape to direct his anger at Dumbledore at this time. I also think that Dumbledore would have been able to cope with this,and would be expecting it, as he did with Harry's anger after Sirius died.

I always wonder how much of Snape's pain here is for himself. He is the one who has to live with the knowledge that he contributed to her death. He can't really blame Dumbledore and I think he realises this on some level. Dumbldeore did his best, but circumstances developed that Dumbledore simply could not control. Part of those circumstances were that the spy Voldemort had in the Order was not discovered. At this time I always think that Snape is wondering if he could have done more to discover the spy, also how much he must be rueing the day he put joining the Death Eaters above his relaintionship with Lily.

[X_Bumblebee_X]

I always wonder how much of Snape's pain here is for himself. He is the one who has to live with the knowledge that he contributed to her death. He can't really blame Dumbledore and I think he realises this on some level. Dumbldeore did his best, but circumstances developed that Dumbledore simply could not control. Part of those circumstances were that the spy Voldemort had in the Order was not discovered. At this time I always think that Snape is wondering if he could have done more to discover the spy, also how much he must be rueing the day he put joining the Death Eaters above his relaintionship with Lily.

I agree with you about Snape's pain. I think he was overwhelmed with guilt anger and all those other emotions that came with the attack. I imagine him to feel the same way he did when he called Lily a Mudblood in their fifth year only on a MUCH higher magnitude. It is a mistake he cannot erase. IMO the pain and loss would be motivation to do the right thing by her memory, which would mean doing the right thing by her son.


IMO the driving force behind Snape's Occlumency skills is the loss of Lily. Snape's memories in "The Prince's Tale" show me nothing more or less than attraction developing into love, and although he never had Lily as a girlfriend, and lost her as a friend, I think only true love would give Snape the strength to look into James Potters son's face every day and keep him safe. Snape's very last action, and last words, were looking into Harry's(Lily's) eyes, and asking for those eyes to meet him. When he says "Look at me" just before he dies, Harry notices something in Snape's eyes disappear, and in the other books there is never any mention of anything but cold black emptiness in Snapes eyes.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by X_Bumblebee_X

I agree with you about Snape's pain. I think he was overwhelmed with guilt anger and all those other emotions that came with the attack. I imagine him to feel the same way he did when he called Lily a Mudblood in their fifth year only on a MUCH higher magnitude. It is a mistake he cannot erase. IMO the pain and loss would be motivation to do the right thing by her memory, which would mean doing the right thing by her son.


IMO the driving force behind Snape's Occlumency skills is the loss of Lily. Snape's memories in "The Prince's Tale" show me nothing more or less than attraction developing into love, and although he never had Lily as a girlfriend, and lost her as a friend, I think only true love would give Snape the strength to look into James Potters son's face every day and keep him safe. Snape's very last action, and last words, were looking into Harry's(Lily's) eyes, and asking for those eyes to meet him. When he says "Look at me" just before he dies, Harry notices something in Snape's eyes disappear, and in the other books there is never any mention of anything but cold black emptiness in Snapes eyes.

Sorry, 'Look at me' gives me the creeps. If that's true love give me a good honest hatred any day. Why would Snape need strength to look at Harry every day? I know that he was partly responsible for James' death, but I think Snape was very good at telling himself none of it was his fault.
Harry was his own man, he wasn't a substitute James, and neither should doing the right thing be something Dumbledore had to shame Snape into doing.
Dumbledeore I think always saw this. Snape was just a little too fond of attributing things to Harry that had nothing to do with Harry. He simply wasn't good at admitting his own culpability IMO. Dumbledore did handle his guilt a lot better. He worked and died to save the WW from utter darkness.

[X_Bumblebee_X]

Sorry, 'Look at me' gives me the creeps. If that's true love give me a good honest hatred any day. Why would Snape need strength to look at Harry every day? I know that he was partly responsible for James' death, but I think Snape was very good at telling himself none of it was his fault.

I Think Snape needed strength to look at Harry every day because he looked so much like James, I don't doubt the creepiness of "Look at me" but it is the meaning behind it. His last thought was of Lily IMO because he was looking into "her" eyes.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by X_Bumblebee_X

I Think Snape needed strength to look at Harry every day because he looked so much like James, I don't doubt the creepiness of "Look at me" but it is the meaning behind it. His last thought was of Lily IMO because he was looking into "her" eyes.

Again I have to ask why Snape would need strength to look at Harry? Harry was not his father. And no, Snape was not looking into Lily's eyes, he was looking into Harry's. Harry was an entirly different person from either of his parents. Dumbledore knew this. This transferance of love/hate for Harry's parents to Harry is, IMO very creepy. Does Snape never look at Harry as Dumbledore does, just as Harry? I can't think of a single occasion when you could say Snape saw Harry, just as he was.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by eliza101

He worked and died to save the WW from utter darkness.

As did Snape. When in HBP he believed himself deceived by Dumbledore, he gave up his personal project of keeping Harry alive, and carried out Dumbledore's plan. (Which I am also expressing as fact not opinion, on the basis of Snape's actions starting from "The Lightning Struck Tower", HBP, through to his death at Voldemort's orders in "The Elder Wand", DH. As Dumbledore planned, Snape killed him, became Headmaster, gave Harry the Sword, and gave Harry his memory of the key conversation with Dumbledore.)