Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

[slytherin001]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think it's clear to me that the moment Snape came to Dumbledore, it was about the Potters not Lily. Snape of course asked about Lily, because he was most concerned about her, but I understood that Dumbledore would save the Potters, not just Lily IMO.

Perhaps it was clear to you, but that doesn't mean it was clear to Snape. And Snape, who was in a state of hysteria, wasn't thinking about all of that during the time he went to Dumbledore. IMO. I think he was solely concernced for Lily, and Lily only, as it is stated in Canon. If it was otherwise stated in Canon, why did Snape just ask for Lily to be protected, and not the whole family?

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

The great thing with Dumbledore is that he never got bitter or blamed other people for his bad choices. He was truly a great man in that respect.

I agree. I believe this to be the greatest difference between Dumbledore and Snape. And I think JKR created this contrast to show what Snape could have been. Because as someone previously stated, everyone has the capacity to change, but whether he/she does, that's a different story. What made DD a true hero, IMO, is that he was responsible and took responsibility for his actions, even the bad ones.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

That interesting. Here I thought it was as clear as glass that Snape never gave a thought about James and Harry. I thought in his little Death Eater world they didn't exist.

I think he did. I think there was enough history between the two that it would be hard for Snape to forget James. I think Snape cared about Harry, and he had a promise to fulfil and so I think he would not have ever forgotten about Harry either. Plus, I don't think he was a DE for more than 18+ years before he died.

Again you have to point me in the direction of canon that says Dumbledore killed that many people out of hand. I knoe Snape said 'Don't kill me.' But he was a Death Eater and Death Eaters did kill people out of hand.

I said Snape thought Dumbledore would kill him and so from Snape's point of view he came to someone on the other side, believing he would be killed. I don't think I ever said Dumbledore was killing people. Where did I say that?

The great thing with Dumbledore is that he never got bitter or blamed other people for his bad choices. He was truly a great man in that respect.

We saw Dumbledore years after his friendship with Grindelwald. While I have no canon about how he would have been, I think he would have been devastated and very bitter with himself, much as Snape was IMO.

That reads to me like far to much introspection for Snape.

I think he was capable of deep introspection and his change came from such introspection IMO.

Also I think it would have taken far too much time away from blamign other people for his bad choices.

Could you give me some canon please to say Snape blamed other people for his bad choices? I don't remember him blaming even James and Sirius and it's well known all three of them disliked each other a lot.

Where there is nothing to indicate one thing or another I think it best not to speculate too much on. All we have is the canon that Snape spent a lot of time attacking James. I suppose it was easier to blame James than to look in a mirror and see the real person that lost him Lily's friendship.

OOTP - The Lost Prophecy 'I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply. 'But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.'

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Canon shows definitively that ordinary witches and wizards knew exactly what the Dark Mark meant. They didn't know that the DEs were branded with it, but they certainly knew that the DEs used it, and cast it when they had murdered someone.

Thanks; I missed that.

I think the disgust was because Snape did not care what happened to Harry or to James. He claimed to love Lily, but he didn't give a damn that she would suffer horrible grief if her family were murdered.

And I think one of the reasons he came to Dumbledore is because he realised this IMO.

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Except that none of them balked at a stranger's murder, or anything that went on before they started to get harmed themselves. Regulus handed his elf over to Voldemort, and I see no sign that he thought it anything other than an honor. I don't see anything that indicates that Snape cared when it was just "a family" that was going to be murdered. Their feeling Voldemort was wrong before they started to personally suffer just isn't part of the story.

I think it was because Snape did not care when it was a family/baby that he needed to feel remorse for actions that made him culpable. I think that was his story - of change, redemption and hope he inspired for those who had fallen as low as him imo.

Well, Regulus switched sides and died in a short span compared to Snape. Regulus seems to have made his turn all on his own, too. It's hard to say how far Regulus's turn was, but he was willing to give his life up in an attempt to help destroy Voldemort.

I think it was more or less the same as Snape's.

Since he died fairly soon after he objected to Voldemort's use of Kreacher, it is hard to say how far he would have progressed in life. Snape lived a long time after he went to Dumbledore on the hill, so I think it easier to see his progress in action.

I agree. But I guess Regulus's change would have been like Snape's. Remorse for all his actions as a DE and indeed for his choices - to become a DE in the first place imo.

I think he changed a little bit here and a little bit there, in baby steps. Snape didn't do much in the ten years after Voldemort disappeared, in my opinion, except get a feel for how a normal life without Voldemort around, which I think was part of Dumbledore's rehabilitation plan.

I disagree. I think in those ten years Snape must have walked to hell and back a million times. That was the point of remorse; to live with his actions imo. I don't think it could have been easy, especially since he was a spy, who had to keep up his DE impersonations whenever he was with the DEs who escaped like Lucius Malfoy or McNair or someone else. For Snape those interactions would have doubly hurt, for there was a time he was one of those. I really don't think Snape had a great time of it in the years Voldemort was not alive. I think it's for this reason I would have liked him to live after the war. I believe he had repaid his debt to the society he harmed as a DE. Even if he did not do anything else except handing over the Prophecy, I think his wrong choices and his terrible mistake was undone a million times. Sadly though his creator did not allow him to live, thereby punishing him way over his mistake IMO.

Originally Posted by slytherin001

Perhaps it was clear to you, but that doesn't mean it was clear to Snape. And Snape, who was in a state of hysteria, wasn't thinking about all of that during the time he went to Dumbledore. IMO. I think he was solely concernced for Lily, and Lily only, as it is stated in Canon. If it was otherwise stated in Canon, why did Snape just ask for Lily to be protected, and not the whole family?

It is clear to me, and while I know canon is not explicit on the issue, I don't think it is an unreasonable assumption to make.

He was concerned for Lily, but as I wrote before, I think he knew for Lily James and Harry were very important and since Snape knew that Voldemort would go after Harry and because I think Snape knew that he could not separate Lily from Harry and James so that they could be conveniently killed and Lily saved (and I am quite sure he did not want that either imo), I think Snape coming to Dumbledore is for Lily, sure, but also for Harry and James, because Lily loved them and wanted them safe. So, I think Snape came there for the Potters. His sole concern was Lily, but since Lily's sole concern was her family, he wanted to protect that too. He could not ask that of Voldemort; he came to Dumbledore imo.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I said Snape thought Dumbledore would kill him and so from Snape's point of view he came to someone on the other side, believing he would be killed. I don't think I ever said Dumbledore was killing people. Where did I say that?

IMO, Snape expected to be killed because that is how a DE would react to an enemy. It says more about Snape than about Dumbledore that Snape expected to be killed.

We saw Dumbledore years after his friendship with Grindelwald. While I have no canon about how he would have been, I think he would have been devastated and very bitter with himself, much as Snape was IMO.

I think Dumbledore was bitter with himself, and blamed himself for his mistakes. Unlike Snape, however, he managed to get on with other people, and not take his problems out on others.

Could you give me some canon please to say Snape blamed other people for his bad choices? I don't remember him blaming even James and Sirius and it's well known all three of them disliked each other a lot.

PoA, page 265 You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black

This shows Snape blaming a murder victim for his death. Three people were responsible for the Potter's deaths, IMO, and James Potter was not one of them. This amounts to passing the buck, IMO - Snape is trying to hold others accountable for Lily's death, to avoid his own culpability.

Similarly:

DH, page I thought...you were going...to keep her...safe

Snape is passing off responsibility on Dumbledore. Snape's crime put Lily in mortal peril, and here, he's passing blame onto Dumbledore for her death.

And I think one of the reasons he came to Dumbledore is because he realised this IMO.

I don't think he did. He did not ask Dumbledore to protect the people Lily loved most until he was shamed into doing so. Dumbledore also interprets his actions as not caring what happened to the husband and child - IMO, Dumbledore's assessment here was accurate. It did not occur to Snape that Lily might actually want her husband and child alive.

He was concerned for Lily, but as I wrote before, I think he knew for Lily James and Harry were very important and since Snape knew that Voldemort would go after Harry and because I think Snape knew that he could not separate Lily from Harry and James so that they could be conveniently killed and Lily saved (and I am quite sure he did not want that either imo), I think Snape coming to Dumbledore is for Lily, sure, but also for Harry and James, because Lily loved them and wanted them safe. So, I think Snape came there for the Potters. His sole concern was Lily, but since Lily's sole concern was her family, he wanted to protect that too. He could not ask that of Voldemort; he came to Dumbledore imo.

I think it's quite clear that Snape did not care whether James and Harry lived or died. That is Dumbledore's impression, too. I don't think what Lily would want occurred to him until Dumbledore expressed his disgust. I believe he came to Dumbledore to ask only for Lily's safety -that is what he asked of Dumbledore. I think he came because he knew that Voldemort's word was worthless, not because he gave a damn about Lily's family.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I disagree. I think in those ten years Snape must have walked to hell and back a million times. That was the point of remorse; to live with his actions imo. I don't think it could have been easy, especially since he was a spy, who had to keep up his DE impersonations whenever he was with the DEs who escaped like Lucius Malfoy or McNair or someone else. For Snape those interactions would have doubly hurt, for there was a time he was one of those. I really don't think Snape had a great time of it in the years Voldemort was not alive. I think it's for this reason I would have liked him to live after the war. I believe he had repaid his debt to the society he harmed as a DE. Even if he did not do anything else except handing over the Prophecy, I think his wrong choices and his terrible mistake was undone a million times. Sadly though his creator did not allow him to live, thereby punishing him way over his mistake IMO.

Snape may have repaid his debt to society for his DE activities (in fact I'm sure he did), but I don't think that was what was making him suffer so much after Voldemort 'vanished' or even when he returned. Surely it was the knowledge that he had been responsible for setting up the situation of Lily's death? His work as a spy amply repaid the years he had spent as a DE IMO, but his suffering was tied to Lily. Even if he had survived the War, he would still have lived with that dreadful regret. My opinion is that he would never have been happy and consequently for him death may have been a welcome release.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

This shows Snape blaming a murder victim for his death. Three people were responsible for the Potter's deaths, IMO, and James Potter was not one of them. This amounts to passing the buck, IMO - Snape is trying to hold others accountable for Lily's death, to avoid his own culpability.

I agree that James was not one of the 3 people responsible for his family's death. However I don't think Snape really avoided his own culpability - my interpretation is that he suffered remorse for his part in Lily's death for the rest of his life.

I don't think he did. He did not ask Dumbledore to protect the people Lily loved most until he was shamed into doing so. Dumbledore also interprets his actions as not caring what happened to the husband and child - IMO, Dumbledore's assessment here was accurate. It did not occur to Snape that Lily might actually want her husband and child alive.

I think it's quite clear that Snape did not care whether James and Harry lived or died. That is Dumbledore's impression, too. I don't think what Lily would want occurred to him until Dumbledore expressed his disgust. I believe he came to Dumbledore to ask only for Lily's safety -that is what he asked of Dumbledore. I think he came because he knew that Voldemort's word was worthless, not because he gave a damn about Lily's family.

That's the impression I got too from Snape's conversation with Dumbledore when Lily had died. Lily's family were of no interest or concern to him until Dumbledore shamed him into considering it IMO. He never seemed to show any affection towards Harry or indicate that Lily's son might be important to him. However it must be said that having agreed to do what he could to protect Lily's son, he did it heroically.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

IMO, Snape expected to be killed because that is how a DE would react to an enemy. It says more about Snape than about Dumbledore that Snape expected to be killed.

I think it's possible that Snape expected Dumbledore to kill him, because Dumbledore was the leader of the Order which was fighting Voldemort and his DEs, mostly to capture and sent to Azkaban, but also fighting to defeat them, which meant, that DEs could be killed as well. It was so in the 7 Potters where fighting took place between DEs and members of the Order and the Order fought to stay alive by trying to defeat the DEs by all means they knew. I think they would have done that in the first war, whenever the Order faced the DEs; IIRC, Moody in OOTP says that it took some five DEs to kill one of the Prewetts, and I assume that in their fights DEs would be killed by the Order members as much as Order members were by the DEs.

Snape was a DE when came to see Dumbledore, and when Dumbledore disarmed him, he thought Dumbledore would kill him. I think Snape thought that he would be captured and sent to Azkaban, but when he was disarmed, I think he grew alarmed that he would be killed then, before he gave his information. Otherwise I think Snape at that time had quite lost the will to live.

I think Dumbledore was bitter with himself, and blamed himself for his mistakes. Unlike Snape, however, he managed to get on with other people, and not take his problems out on others.

I am quite sure Snape never blamed anyone for his mistakes. I don't see him blaming anyone for what his choices where, or what happened to him as a result of his choices. I think Snape and Dumbledore were people who were very bitter with themselves and while they could not forgive themselves for their mistakes, both never blame another person, be it their family or the lack of it, or their friends, loves for what essentially were their choices. They took full responsibility for their actions and repented for the same imo.

This shows Snape blaming a murder victim for his death. Three people were responsible for the Potter's deaths, IMO, and James Potter was not one of them. This amounts to passing the buck, IMO - Snape is trying to hold others accountable for Lily's death, to avoid his own culpability.

I disagree. I think, on the contrary shows Snape spoke the absolute truth as he saw it as he saw it at that time, with what information he had in his hands.

1. Everyone from Dumbledore to Dung thought Sirius was the traitor at that time IMO.

2. Since McGonagall in POA says that Dumbledore was worried about Sirius, he offered to be SK, but James trusted Sirius to the hilt; I assume Snape too may have known that from Dumbledore and so would have known that James rejected Dumbledore's offer to go with Black, and would have IMO seen it as an arrogance on the part of James to stick with Black, which ultimately killed them (as Dumbledore told Snape in the TPT that the Potters like Snape himself had placed their trust in the wrong person, who betrayed them) IMO.

POA - The Marauder's Map James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would rather die than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself ... and yet, Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters SK himself.

3. In the light of what Snape knew from Dumbledore and in the light of the fact that no one at that time knew that Peter had been the spy, I think it is not wrong of Snape to say that it was indeed James's arrogance which led him to trust Black over Dumbledore, which got him and Lily killed. I think it was in this context that Snape spoke these words, because once he hears (I assume Dumbledore filled him up later on about Sirius and Peter and that SK fiasco), he never speaks about it again IMO.

Similarly:



Snape is passing off responsibility on Dumbledore. Snape's crime put Lily in mortal peril, and here, he's passing blame onto Dumbledore for her death.

I disagree once again. Snape had provided specific information to Dumbledore about the Potters being targets and I think in Dumbledore's study, he was shocked by their deaths, after he came and gave specific information about the danger they faced. I think he was shocked and he was asking Dumbledore how this could have happened, when he had clearly told him about everything. I don't think asking Dumbledore about an operation gone wrong and wanting to know what on earth happened that the Order could not protect it's own, in the face of a specific threat that had been exposed beforehand, is IMO really not passing the buck for Snape's mistakes on to Dumbledore or indeed anyone else.

It did not occur to Snape that Lily might actually want her husband and child alive.

From what in canon do you base this statement upon please? (that it did not occur to Snape that is)

Originally Posted by horcrux4

Surely it was the knowledge that he had been responsible for setting up the situation of Lily's death?

I think it was the fact Lily had died even after he told Dumbledore about the threat to her that made him so anguished, not that he had set it up. I don't think Snape set Lily's death up, though I think Snape certainly thought so. That he came before the Potters died, I removes him from being culpable for their actual deaths, but I don't think Snape would agree with me. I think he very much thought himself to be responsible for the Potters deaths.

His work as a spy amply repaid the years he had spent as a DE IMO, but his suffering was tied to Lily. Even if he had survived the War, he would still have lived with that dreadful regret. My opinion is that he would never have been happy and consequently for him death may have been a welcome release.

I think, like Dumbledore, Snape would never feel that all his actions in some way made up for his mistakes. And that can never be so too. But, I really think, had Snape lived after the war, he would have been a happy man; not because he felt he had squared of his mistakes, but because he had over the years learnt to live with them; accept them as a part of him. I think he was unable to do so, until the war, because of his job as a spy; after the war, he could put that part of him (the spying part) firmly behind him, and I like to think he would have found a contentment and a peace, which while he may have thought he did not deserve, but would still come to him IMO.

[slytherin001]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Quote:
Similarly:

DH, page: I thought...you were going...to keep her...safe


Snape is passing off responsibility on Dumbledore. Snape's crime put Lily in mortal peril, and here, he's passing blame onto Dumbledore for her death.

I disagree once again. Snape had provided specific information to Dumbledore about the Potters being targets and I think in Dumbledore's study, he was shocked by their deaths, after he came and gave specific information about the danger they faced. I think he was shocked and he was asking Dumbledore how this could have happened, when he had clearly told him about everything. I don't think asking Dumbledore about an operation gone wrong and wanting to know what on earth happened that the Order could not protect it's own, in the face of a specific threat that had been exposed beforehand, is IMO really not passing the buck for Snape's mistakes on to Dumbledore or indeed anyone else.

When I read that statement I believed Snape did place Dumbledore at some responsibility for Lily's death, although Dumbledore did his best to protect the Potters. I didn't see Snape as just being 'shocked.' If he was, he could've said something along the lines of, "how did this happen." But he didn't. Instead, he chose to unjustifiably dump it on Dumbledore, as if it were his fault Lily was dead, even though it was himself that set her death sentence in motion from the start. IMO, that's how it read off the page.

From what in canon do you base this statement upon please? (that it did not occur to Snape that is)

I don't know where FurryDice found his/her canon to support this statement, but I found it clear when Snape had gone to Dumbledore originally asking for just Lily's life to be protected. The fact that he apparently didn't give as much as a thought to how Lily would react to knowing her family had been killed while she was spared shows that Snape didn't care if Lily cared that her husband and child died. To think that she would be content to live without her family shows a great deal of arrogance on Snape's part, as well as his lack of understanding towards Lily.

I think it was the fact Lily had died even after he told Dumbledore about the threat to her that made him so anguished, not that he had set it up. I don't think Snape set Lily's death up, though I think Snape certainly thought so. That he came before the Potters died, I removes him from being culpable for their actual deaths, but I don't think Snape would agree with me. I think he very much thought himself to be responsible for the Potters deaths.

I disagree. Snape set the Potters death sentence in motion the moment he took the prophecy to LV. The fact that he went to Dumbledore doesn't remove his culpability because LV was still going to go after them, regardless if DD consented into Snape's wishes. So, just because Snape tried to right the wrong he committed doesn't excuse his part in the murder of James and Lily.

But, I really think, had Snape lived after the war, he would have been a happy man; not because he felt he had squared of his mistakes, but because he had over the years learnt to live with them; accept them as a part of him. I think he was unable to do so, until the war, because of his job as a spy; after the war, he could put that part of him (the spying part) firmly behind him, and I like to think he would have found a contentment and a peace, which while he may have thought he did not deserve, but would still come to him IMO.

Well, to be fair, Snape was never really described as "happy", not in his childhood or his adulthood. So, I don't find it likely that he would have just been able to let go of all that happened and be a happy man. It doesn't suit his character whatsoever. Unlike Dumbledore, Snape was never able to effectively deal with his mistakes, thus not really being able to effectively live. I don't really see that changing, regardless if he had lived. If Snape was anything, it was that he was a man unable to let go of his past. So, I find it highly unlikely that Snape would just put his days as a double spy behind him. The way I see it, if Snape had lived, he would have become similar to many soldiers who come back from war traumatized and a shell of their former selves. I don't see Snape making any progessive steps, but rather retreating further into his shell, unable to quit reliving all the wrongs he had made and everything he had witnessed as a result.
I think death, and the way he died, suited Snape. IMO, he would have found peace and contentment with death, not through living. To me, that's just the kind of guy he was, which really contrasts the kind of guy Dumbledore was.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

His work as a spy amply repaid the years he had spent as a DE IMO, but his suffering was tied to Lily. Even if he had survived the War, he would still have lived with that dreadful regret. My opinion is that he would never have been happy and consequently for him death may have been a welcome release.

This is what I think is the significance of Snape's accepting the charge of helping Dumbledore to protect Harry. Unlike the spying, which benefited society/humanity as a whole, protecting Harry benefited Harry, and through Harry, Lily. (It was what she would have wanted, and what she died trying to accomplish). I think it was a reason Dumbledore suggested it to Snape, actually. He recognized that there was a personal element to his pain over Lily's death, and may have hoped that providing a mission that was equally personal, might effect a cure.

It is also a reason I found Snape's decision in DH to give Harry all of those memories, including the one of Albus explaining Harry had to die, breathtaking. I think if Snape had lived and Harry had died, you would be completely right, he could never have recovered, despite (I presume) having done what he (and I) consider the right thing. If Snape had somehow survived and Harry had too, to have a normal career and family as he indeed did, I do think Snape could have recovered, having through that accomplishment expiated his guilt for Lily.

[MsJPotter]

[quote]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think it's possible that Snape expected Dumbledore to kill him, because Dumbledore was the leader of the Order which was fighting Voldemort and his DEs, mostly to capture and sent to Azkaban, but also fighting to defeat them, which meant, that DEs could be killed as well. It was so in the 7 Potters where fighting took place between DEs and members of the Order and the Order fought to stay alive by trying to defeat the DEs by all means they knew. I think they would have done that in the first war, whenever the Order faced the DEs; IIRC, Moody in OOTP says that it took some five DEs to kill one of the Prewetts, and I assume that in their fights DEs would be killed by the Order members as much as Order members were by the DEs.

How many people do we see Dumbledore kill out of hand, that Snape would automatically expect this from Dumbledore?

Snape was a DE when came to see Dumbledore, and when Dumbledore disarmed him, he thought Dumbledore would kill him. I think Snape thought that he would be captured and sent to Azkaban, but when he was disarmed, I think he grew alarmed that he would be killed then, before he gave his information. Otherwise I think Snape at that time had quite lost the will to live.

Lost the will to live? Then why ask for Lily's life to be preserved and Lily's life only?

I am quite sure Snape never blamed anyone for his mistakes. I don't see him blaming anyone for what his choices where, or what happened to him as a result of his choices. I think Snape and Dumbledore were people who were very bitter with themselves and while they could not forgive themselves for their mistakes, both never blame another person, be it their family or the lack of it, or their friends, loves for what essentially were their choices. They took full responsibility for their actions and repented for the same imo.

I am quite sure Snape never did anything else but blame other people.

I disagree. I think, on the contrary shows Snape spoke the absolute truth as he saw it as he saw it at that time, with what information he had in his hands.

I agree. I think in his mind, he was not to blame in any way. It was Sirius who was to blame.

1. Everyone from Dumbledore to Dung thought Sirius was the traitor at that time IMO.

And they were all wrong.

2. Since McGonagall in POA says that Dumbledore was worried about Sirius, he offered to be SK, but James trusted Sirius to the hilt; I assume Snape too may have known that from Dumbledore and so would have known that James rejected Dumbledore's offer to go with Black, and would have IMO seen it as an arrogance on the part of James to stick with Black, which ultimately killed them (as Dumbledore told Snape in the TPT that the Potters like Snape himself had placed their trust in the wrong person, who betrayed them) IMO.

Where does McGonagall say that? She says in Rosemerta's that Dumbledore was worried about a spy, but nobody knew who that spy was. Sirius was wrongly believed to be the spy but this has nothing to do with who was actually the real spy. What this demonstrates IMO is why Sirius was wrongly sent to Azkaban. People believed the lie because nobody knew the truth. The person whothe Potter's put thier trust in and who betrayed them was Pettigrew, not the person that everybody thought was the actual secretkeeper. I don't get your point here unless it's to show how easy Pettigrew found it to fool both Snape and Dumbledore. Which he dide it seems as they both still believe the ;ie so many years after.

3. In the light of what Snape knew from Dumbledore and in the light of the fact that no one at that time knew that Peter had been the spy, I think it is not wrong of Snape to say that it was indeed James's arrogance which led him to trust Black over Dumbledore, which got him and Lily killed. I think it was in this context that Snape spoke these words, because once he hears (I assume Dumbledore filled him up later on about Sirius and Peter and that SK fiasco), he never speaks about it again IMO.

I'm still not getting your point. Pettigrew fooled Dumbledore, Pettigrew fooled Snape. Sirius never tried to fool them at all, he was trying to fool Voldemort. Voldemort was the murderer, Pettigrew and Snape were Voldemort's spies. Snape was chosen to be Voldemort's spy when he overheard the Prophecy. They are the people who conspired to kill the Potters. Well Snape didn't conspire to kill the Potters, he only conspired to kill an unknown to him at that time family.

I disagree once again. Snape had provided specific information to Dumbledore about the Potters being targets and I think in Dumbledore's study, he was shocked by their deaths, after he came and gave specific information about the danger they faced. I think he was shocked and he was asking Dumbledore how this could have happened, when he had clearly told him about everything. I don't think asking Dumbledore about an operation gone wrong and wanting to know what on earth happened that the Order could not protect it's own, in the face of a specific threat that had been exposed beforehand, is IMO really not passing the buck for Snape's mistakes on to Dumbledore or indeed anyone else.

Yep, again all I can think of is closing those stable doors after you have scared the horses out of the stable.

From what in canon do you base this statement upon please? (that it did not occur to Snape that is)

I can't speak for anybody else. I base it on the fact that Lily loved her husband and she sacrificed herself for her child. What about those facts make you think she would be allright with them being murdered in front of her?

I think it was the fact Lily had died even after he told Dumbledore about the threat to her that made him so anguished, not that he had set it up. I don't think Snape set Lily's death up, though I think Snape certainly thought so. That he came before the Potters died, I removes him from being culpable for their actual deaths, but I don't think Snape would agree with me. I think he very much thought himself to be responsible for the Potters deaths.

Oh I think it was a lot more than that. There's nothing like the knowledge you set up the person you are supposed to love to be murdered to make you feel bad

I think, like Dumbledore, Snape would never feel that all his actions in some way made up for his mistakes. And that can never be so too. But, I really think, had Snape lived after the war, he would have been a happy man; not because he felt he had squared of his mistakes, but because he had over the years learnt to live with them; accept them as a part of him. I think he was unable to do so, until the war, because of his job as a spy; after the war, he could put that part of him (the spying part) firmly behind him, and I like to think he would have found a contentment and a peace, which while he may have thought he did not deserve, but would still come to him IMO.

Snape happy? The only thing IMO that made Snape happy was being miserable.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by slytherin001

I disagree. Snape set the Potters death sentence in motion the moment he took the prophecy to LV.

I would agree had Snape never come to Dumbledore. Me, I see it very differently. I accept Snape made a huge mistake; but on understanding what that mistake had caused, Snape also IMO undid that mistake when he came to Dumbledore. For me the question is how far should I blame a man for a mistake, when he clearly came in time to undo it. Yes; he would still be responsible for the mental attitude that made him commit that mistake in the first place and for that he would need to make amends with himself, but I don't know if I can still hold him responsible for an action he had nothing to do with.

The Potters deaths had IMO nothing to do with Snape and I think Snape was culpable not for the Potters deaths but for something else entirely. I disagree with what you say about Snape being responsible for the Potters death. Yes; he set in motion an action that would make Voldemort act against one family that happened to be the Potter family, but he also came in time to enable them to live safely for the rest of the war. I really cannot fault Snape for what happened to the Potters because they refused Dumbledore's offer IMO.

The fact that he went to Dumbledore doesn't remove his culpability because LV was still going to go after them, regardless if DD consented into Snape's wishes.

But, that he went to Dumbledore enabled them to protect themselves in the safest way possible for the next 20 years, against Voldemort's attack. That they did not do, IMO does not make Snape responsible.

So, just because Snape tried to right the wrong he committed doesn't excuse his part in the murder of James and Lily.

I completely disagree. Snape had IMO no part in James and Lily's deaths. Snape had a part in taking half a prophecy to Voldemort knowing it would cause the death of a baby IMO.

Well, to be fair, Snape was never really described as "happy", not in his childhood or his adulthood. So, I don't find it likely that he would have just been able to let go of all that happened and be a happy man.

Yes; Snape never had a happy childhood or a happy life; some of it was not his fault, while some of it was; but through all of it, I think Snape had the strength to face his life and his choices without blaming anyone else for it and had he lived after the war, I think he would have had made peace with himself.

It doesn't suit his character whatsoever.

I disagree. I think it would suit anyone to be happy; and I think Snape was no exception.

Unlike Dumbledore, Snape was never able to effectively deal with his mistakes, thus not really being able to effectively live.

I am not sure Dumbledore dealt effectively with his mistakes, not if the way he cried in King's Cross was anything to go by; that was probably a 100 years after the event. It still made Dumbledore bitter, sad and anguished IMO.

If Snape was anything, it was that he was a man unable to let go of his past.

I disagree. The memories alone show me how much of the past he had let go. To Harry he showed his mistakes; there was no vindictiveness by showing Harry anything negative about James, Sirius or Lupin, or indeed his mother. I think Snape had moved away from the past, but he could not live the life he wanted to, until the war was over IMO.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I think if Snape had lived and Harry had died, you would be completely right, he could never have recovered, despite (I presume) having done what he (and I) consider the right thing. If Snape had somehow survived and Harry had too, to have a normal career and family as he indeed did, I do think Snape could have recovered, having through that accomplishment expiated his guilt for Lily.

I never thought about a situation where Snape would live and Harry die, but if that would happen, I agree Snape would be devastated, but I think he would pull through, because he knew what he was doing when he gave Harry those memories. The bonus for Snape would be that Harry lived, because when he gave Harry the message, he had thought Harry would die IMO.

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

I am quite sure Snape never did anything else but blame other people.

Could you please give me some canon for this. I don't think Snape blamed anyone for his choices; there is nothing in the Books to suggest that IMO.

Snape happy? The only thing IMO that made Snape happy was being miserable.

I completely disagree. I don't think being miserable made Snape happy. IN the Books, Snape is visibly miserable and anguished on at least two occasions; one, when he comes to Dumbledore on the hill and the other when he meets Dumbledore after Lily's death, neither scene seem to reveal a happy Snape, because he was miserable. I guess I completely disagree with this, since I don't see this in canon at all.

[ReelBigFish]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I would agree had Snape never come to Dumbledore. Me, I see it very differently. I accept Snape made a huge mistake; but on understanding what that mistake had caused, Snape also IMO undid that mistake when he came to Dumbledore. For me the question is how far should I blame a man for a mistake, when he clearly came in time to undo it. Yes; he would still be responsible for the mental attitude that made him commit that mistake in the first place and for that he would need to make amends with himself, but I don't know if I can still hold him responsible for an action he had nothing to do with.

The Potters deaths had IMO nothing to do with Snape and I think Snape was culpable not for the Potters deaths but for something else entirely. I disagree with what you say about Snape being responsible for the Potters death. Yes; he set in motion an action that would make Voldemort act against one family that happened to be the Potter family, but he also came in time to enable them to live safely for the rest of the war. I really cannot fault Snape for what happened to the Potters because they refused Dumbledore's offer IMO.



But, that he went to Dumbledore enabled them to protect themselves in the safest way possible for the next 20 years, against Voldemort's attack. That they did not do, IMO does not make Snape responsible.



I completely disagree. Snape had IMO no part in James and Lily's deaths. Snape had a part in taking half a prophecy to Voldemort knowing it would cause the death of a baby IMO.



Yes; Snape never had a happy childhood or a happy life; some of it was not his fault, while some of it was; but through all of it, I think Snape had the strength to face his life and his choices without blaming anyone else for it and had he lived after the war, I think he would have had made peace with himself.



I disagree. I think it would suit anyone to be happy; and I think Snape was no exception.



I am not sure Dumbledore dealt effectively with his mistakes, not if the way he cried in King's Cross was anything to go by; that was probably a 100 years after the event. It still made Dumbledore bitter, sad and anguished IMO.



I disagree. The memories alone show me how much of the past he had let go. To Harry he showed his mistakes; there was no vindictiveness by showing Harry anything negative about James, Sirius or Lupin, or indeed his mother. I think Snape had moved away from the past, but he could not live the life he wanted to, until the war was over IMO.



I never thought about a situation where Snape would live and Harry die, but if that would happen, I agree Snape would be devastated, but I think he would pull through, because he knew what he was doing when he gave Harry those memories. The bonus for Snape would be that Harry lived, because when he gave Harry the message, he had thought Harry would die IMO.



Could you please give me some canon for this. I don't think Snape blamed anyone for his choices; there is nothing in the Books to suggest that IMO.



I completely disagree. I don't think being miserable made Snape happy. IN the Books, Snape is visibly miserable and anguished on at least two occasions; one, when he comes to Dumbledore on the hill and the other when he meets Dumbledore after Lily's death, neither scene seem to reveal a happy Snape, because he was miserable. I guess I completely disagree with this, since I don't see this in canon at all.

The Potters death had everything to do with Snape - he started the ball rolling in the first place by spying and reporting the Prophecy to Voldemort and knew what that meant and it was the information Snape reported that caused the Potters to be targeted and in that way he was responsible for their death. If he had not reported the Prophecy then he would not be culpable but he did and so IMO he is responsible for them. Snape knew his master well enough to know what he was capable of. If Snape had not spied and told of the Prophecy would the Potters have been targeted and died?? Snape going to Dumbledore was too late and it also IMO does not let him off the hook for the Potters deaths at all.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ReelBigFish

The Potters death had everything to do with Snape - he started the ball rolling in the first place by spying and reporting the Prophecy to Voldemort and knew what that meant and it was the information Snape reported that caused the Potters to be targeted and in that way he was responsible for their death.

I disagree. I think it's like saying Merope was responsible for what Voldemort became and that she be blamed for everything Voldemort did, because she abandoned him as a baby. I think Snape had nothing to do with the Potter deaths. He had everything to do with the fact he carried information to Voldemort knowing that a baby would be killed. The information Snape reported caused Voldemort to target a family IMO.

That family happened to be the Potters and when Snape knew that, he came in time to warn the Potters to be careful, to protect themselves, to tell them that he had made a mistake that could have Voldemort after them. IMO he undid that mistake. Also the Potters were already in hiding for other reasons than Snape's half Prophecy which he took to Voldemort. That IMO had nothing to do with Snape as well.

If Snape had not spied and told of the Prophecy would the Potters have been targeted and died??

I am quite certain they would have been targeted and they would have died, because they would not have even gone under the Fidelus (not that that gave them any protection imo). Peter was the traitor; the Potters were in hiding long before they even knew of the Propehcy, assuming that they knew of the Propehcy at all. Assuming Snape had not gone with the Propehcy, the Potters would have most likely died in the same manner, because they would have been betrayed by Peter, much in the same way. Perhaps, Sirius and Lupin may have also died along with them, and since Voldemort would have never given Lily three chances to step aside, (because of Snape's request), Harry would have died as well IMO.

[Moriath]

You may have missed this but the Snape character analysis thread is closed. We will definitely not let you turn this into a substitute thread to evade the punishment. Snape and Dumbledore are the focus of this thread, ladies and gentlemen! Stick to it or see this thread closed as well.

[slytherin001]

I am not sure Dumbledore dealt effectively with his mistakes, not if the way he cried in King's Cross was anything to go by; that was probably a 100 years after the event. It still made Dumbledore bitter, sad and anguished IMO.

So, by your standard, grieving over one's past mistakes is not effectively dealing with them? When I mean effectively dealing with one's mistakes, I mean being able to take responsibility for your actions, don't just simply forget them, without losing the spark to live a better life. Dumbledore made his mistakes, of which I see nothing wrong with him grieving over regardless if they were made 1 year or a 1000 years before, but he was able to cope with his grief alot better than Snape was.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by slytherin001

When I mean effectively dealing with one's mistakes, I mean being able to take responsibility for your actions, don't just simply forget them, without losing the spark to live a better life.

I think Snape did this too. A hundred years later, I think Snape would feel the same regret for his actions, much like Dumbledore did. I really don't think he forgot his past. Snape, in the Books was a spy with no hold over his life to live the way he wanted to. Dumbledore IMO had no such compulsions. His fight against Grindelwald was straightforward and even then, years after Ariana, Dumbledore put off meeting with Grindelwald as long as he could. Snape on the other hand, came to Dumbledore on the hill, accepted to do Anything for Dumbledore, and was thrown back into the same organisation that minute itself. The moment Ariana died, Dumbledore was out of the partnership with Grindelwald, and when he met Grindelwald in a duel years later, he had much time to grieve, work on the inside as much as he could. Snape IMO had no such luxury. The moment Snape learnt of Lily being targeted, he came to Dumbledore; in that meeting itself he was asked to go back to the same organisation and from then on, Snape had to play a part of a willing DE to Voldemort and his followers and after Voldemort died the first time, to the DEs who were still around and free.

But, with all this, I think Snape worked hard with himself, felt remorse and I like to think by the time he died, he had come to terms with what he did; while I think he would never justify it or overcome it, I think Snape made his peace not only with himself, but with Harry as well.

he was able to cope with his grief alot better than Snape was.

Maybe; he had a hundred years to do so after all; and he never had to spy and be cordial to Grindelwald or his followers while he did it IMO.

----------------------

I think one of the reasons Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance may have been because he saw himself in Snape, who came anguished to Dumbledore because of what his actions may have caused. Dumbledore, himself was not so lucky IMO. He realised his mistakes only after Ariana died and Grindelwald left him to pick up the shattered pieces of his life all by himself. Snape, on the other hand, had managed to come in time to warn the Order about what could happen. I wonder how Dumbledore would have felt then, thinking about how he was not so lucky as Snape, who woke up before the damage was actually done IMO.

[slytherin001]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think one of the reasons Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance may have been because he saw himself in Snape, who came anguished to Dumbledore because of what his actions may have caused. Dumbledore, himself was not so lucky IMO. He realised his mistakes only after Ariana died and Grindelwald left him to pick up the shattered pieces of his life all by himself. Snape, on the other hand, had managed to come in time to warn the Order about what could happen. I wonder how Dumbledore would have felt then, thinking about how he was not so lucky as Snape, who woke up before the damage was actually done IMO.

Snape woke up before the damage was actually done? Hmm, the damage was already done when he decided to take that prophecy to LV. Just because it hadn't physically manifested itself doesn't mean there was no damage done. Keep in mind, also, that Snape would have never even gone to Dumbledore had it not been Lily's family, and by that I only mean Lily, who was targeted.
I think it's plausible that Dumbledore gave a second chance to Snape because he may have seen a bit of himself, and his troubels, in Snape. So, he gave Snape a chance. He gave him penance and allowed Snape to atone for the wrongs he did. However, I do think there is a deeper reason to the contrast in personality between Dumbledore & Snape. I think Dumbledore is what Snape could have been, for better. And Snape is what Dumbledore could have been, for worse.

[salazarssister]

1. What do you believe Snape and Dumbledore's relationship was based on?

Trust. Dumbledore i believe began to feel sorry for Snape as the books went on and took advantage of "anything" to get Snape to carry out important parts of his plan for him. He obviously trusted him as he got him to kill him, look after the school and provide Harry with vital information and the sword. Snape was obviously upset and angry at the fact Lily was killed although Dumbledore was trying to protect her however i think he trusted Dumbledore because he had accepted him back even although he was disgusted at him.

2. How do you think Dumbledore felt about Snape through the course of the series? Did his views on Snape change?

I think his views definitely changed. Dumbledore was disgusted on the hilltop that night but as he saw Snape's loyalty and determination to protect Harry his trust grew. I think Snape's strong love after many years was something Dumbledore regarded as tragic but touching at the same time and he felt deeply sorry for the man.

3. How do you think Snape felt about spying for Dumbledore? Did he resent his job?

I don't think he resented it. He didn't really have much to live for with Lily gone and he liked the fact he was doing something useful to protect her son.

4. Did Dumbledore and Snape fully trust one another?

I believe at first they maybe didn't but i think the scene where Snape shows Dumbledore his patronus is when they fully trusted one another

5. Do you think Severus was jealous (in a sibling-type way) of Dumbledore's fondness for Harry?

No i don't think so. I think he was jealous of the amount of information Dumbledore provided Harry but would not confide with him however.

6. Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?

Yes i think he did. I think he felt sorry for Snape.

7. Dumbledore and Snape worked together for years before Harry showed up. How do you think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts? Did it change once Voldemort returned in GoF?

I don't think their relationship changed once Harry came to Hogwarts but it probably did in GOF because that is when Snape demonstrated that he had kept his word and would return to voldemort to act spy

8. How would you characterize their relationship when Severus was a student? Do you think that Albus may have been aware of Severus’ interest in the Death Eaters while he was at Hogwarts?

Dumbledore probably was aware of his interest in the DE but i don't think snape and dumbledore had a very close relationship when he was a student

9. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Harry names the same son after both of these men, or do you believe that Albus and Severus are inexorably linked in Harry's mind? Does Harry see the similarities in them as well? Or is it simply that they both shaped and influenced his life - for good and bad - in so many ways?

I think he sees them as separate people and doesn't really see similarities between them. I think he believes they both influenced his life and were important in helping him defeat Voldemort.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by slytherin001

I think it's plausible that Dumbledore gave a second chance to Snape because he may have seen a bit of himself, and his troubels, in Snape. So, he gave Snape a chance. He gave him penance and allowed Snape to atone for the wrongs he did. However, I do think there is a deeper reason to the contrast in personality between Dumbledore & Snape. I think Dumbledore is what Snape could have been, for better. And Snape is what Dumbledore could have been, for worse.

I personally think Dumbledore did see himself in Snape and gave him a second chance as a result.

However, I don't think we have sufficient information to state that Dumbledore is the positive pole of repentance from past mistakes and Snape the negative. Let me explain:

Dumbledore is, I think, 115 years old at the time of his death. Snape is 38.

We have no information at all regarding how effectively Dumbledore had dealt with his own past when he was 38. We will never have any information on how effectively Snape would have dealt with his past had he lived to be 115. Therefore, I don't find it an even comparison.

Snape, imo, was involved a growth process - a slow, halting, growth process in which he often relapsed into bitterness and got stuck in the past. But there is also evidence, I think, that he was not static, and that he did grow. (One specific example of growth, imo: attempting to save all the lives it was possible to save, even those of people he did not like).

Could he potentially have grown to be more at peace with himself had he lived to be 115 and had he been able to live as something other than a spy? It's not entirely impossible, I think. Dumbledore himself is not entirely at peace with himself and has not entirely put his past behind him - as we see in King's Cross and in his succumbing to the Resurrection Stone temptation. But he's far further along the road than Snape is. That's natural I think, since he's also nearly a century older than Snape is.

Both men were seduced by bad ideology. Both men contributed, as a result, to the death of someone they loved. Both men grieved deeply over that loss. Both men took on missions aimed at redeeming the past. One key difference is that Snape had to continue to put himself in the presence of Voldemort and his minions, while Dumbledore could freely show where he stood.

I see in Dumbledore's relative equanimity evidence of what Snape might have grown to become had he lived beyond the war. Since Snape did not live, however, we will never know if he would have realized that potential.

[MsJPotter]

Seems to me we have a good bit of information about what Dumbledore did in those 115 years. He taught generations of Wizard children. We know that Dumbledore was a well respected teacher at Hogwarts in the 30's. We know that he defeated Grindelwald around 1945. We know that during the First War he was the only wizard Voldemort 'feared'. Dumbledore's fall from grace happened when he was a youth and he never strayed again. He spent a few months dreaming of power and glory and then was brought down to earth by the worst possible circumstances. He had a hard lesson and learn it well. There's a lot of similarities between him and Snape, but there's a lot of contrast as well. Dumbledore didn't go around blaming someone else for his actions and Snape does blame other people. Dumbledore wasn't a bully in the classroom, Snape was. We know this because if Dumbledore had been a bully in the classroom, IMO Rita would have had it in her book, you can take that to the bank, again my opinion. Snape was a bully in the classroom, we see that from his first class. So we have two pretty important differences right there, but I don't think Dumbledore dwelt on Snape's faults, he wanted Snape to work with him willingly IMO, so he concentrate on what he could with Snape, Snape's courage and tenacity. These were two qualities that could used for negative purposes as well as good, but Dumbledore's influence on Snape kept them channelled for positive actions. I kind of think Snape knew this, just as he probably knew deep down he was so to speak, the author of his own misfortunes. He started straying when he was a lot younger than Dumbledore was. He was on a pretty dark path a lot longer than Dumbledore was, and I think he probably liked it. I think that he did love the Dark Arts, a lot. So while I think Dumbledore did not love the Dark Arts the same way Snape did, I think Dumbledore was had enough self knowledge about himself to know that he did like power over others. This is the big difference, Dumbledore knew on every level what he did was wrong, Snape still had the tendency to blame other people at least up to OOTP.

[LyraLovegood]

Just a bit of a twist: a thought sparked by MsJPotter's post above, that might get the discussion going in a different direction.

We see, in the 18-19-year-old Albus, a desire for power over others.
We also see, in Severus, enough courage to live as a double agent, and Harry calls him "probably the bravest man I ever knew."

Can we perhaps discuss why the cunning Albus, with enough desire for power to throw in his lot with Grindelwald at first, got sorted into Gryffindor? And why Severus, with the daring to defy Voldemort and the chivalry to risk throwing away his whole life to save Lily from Voldemort, was sorted into Slytherin?

[MsJPotter]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

Just a bit of a twist: a thought sparked by MsJPotter's post above, that might get the discussion going in a different direction.

We see, in the 18-19-year-old Albus, a desire for power over others.
We also see, in Severus, enough courage to live as a double agent, and Harry calls him "probably the bravest man I ever knew."

Can we perhaps discuss why the cunning Albus, with enough desire for power to throw in his lot with Grindelwald at first, got sorted into Gryffindor? And why Severus, with the daring to defy Voldemort and the chivalry to risk throwing away his whole life to save Lily from Voldemort, was sorted into Slytherin?

Well putting it that way I would think we have to look at them after they make their big mistakes in life. In the aftermath of losing his sister Dumbledore did an about face on his own. He realised the price of personal power and came to the conclusion that he was an idiot, He had had a family that needed and loved him and didn't care if he was the most brilliant and powerful wizard around, they valued him, their brother Albus Dumbledore. He lost that and never got over it.
Now Snape, he made his big mistake in his life both earlier and later than Dumbledore. Earlier in that he chose his friends in Slytherin House, the wanna be Death Eaters over Lily. I know that some people think he had no choice but to be friends with the bigots but I don't agree. I don't think for one minute that every Slytherin bought into and supported Voldemort's agenda of genocide. Sirius says that he hung out with a group of kids who almost all became Death Eaters, not that all of them joined up. The main difference I think comes when he leaves? them and Voldemort. Snape does not leave on his own, Dumbledore kind of pressures into leaving. He says to Snape'
'What will you do for me?'
and Snape has to think about it, then he says
'Anything.'
So it's clear enough to me at least that it never occurred to Snape that there might be a price to pay. But of course I think we all know that Dumbledore would have protected Lily and James regardless of the fact that Snape never asked for James and Harry to be protected. What is interesting to me at least is that Snape says 'Anything' in the first place. He actually thinks that Dumbledore won't protect the Potter family if he doesn't do something in return.
This really doesn't speak well of Snape's outlook on life and this is one of the reasons that I think Snape is much less than Dumbledore. Dumbledore expects and gets the best from people, Snape expects the worst and he never really learns that if you expect the worst that is usually what you get