Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

[SDaniel]

I'm not sure if you have discussed this already, but I wondered why did Dumbledore trust Snape. I have a few theories about the reason that made Dumbledore oblivious to so many people's doubts about Snape's true allegiance, but I can find holes in all of them.
I know that Dumbledore had been right in trusting Severus Snape, but the reason for which he trusted him is what intrigued me the most. Though Dumbledore's supposed greatest weakness was the fact that he sees the best in people, doesn't mean that he trusted anyone, therefore we can conclude that Dumbledore had a solid reason for trusting a former Death Eater and an high accomplished Legilimens.
One of the theories is that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow that he will never again work for Voldemort. Another one is that Dumbledore knew about Snape's great love for Lily Evans, and thought that Snape would never work for the one who murdered Lily. And the last that I know of is that Snape being a skillful Legilimens, hoodwinked Dumbledore into believing that Snape was his man.

Like I said there are little or major problems with all of these theories. I would like to find out the truth about this problem, so if anyone knows, I'll be delighted to hear it. Although it can be like Dumbledore said in the beginning of the first book: "We can only guess ... we may never know."

[glacevenor]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I agree.

That is bascially what I was attempting to say. Dumbledore's feelings, whatever they were, gave him pause, but he got over them, but Snape did not get over his (which granted were distinct). However, I do feel that over time, Dumbledore had hoped that Snape would be able to be more self-motivated rather than Lily-motivated, if you know what I mean. I know I keep coming back to the same topic, but I don't think Dumbledore did see complete remorse from Snape. I don't care about the whole Elder Wand business, except to understand why Dumbledore did it in the first place. I do think it bears heavily on this issue. I may be the only one in the world who finds this particular topic so fascinating. . But it is so out of character for Dumbledore unless it is given meaning, and it is bugging me.

Considering how Snape's only positiveness in the form of love was towards Lily, I guess Dumbledore would have been aware of how Snape would be better off being Lily-motivated than self-motivated. Lily was the only reason Snape had taken to Dumbledore's order/request. As for remorse in Snape, Dumbledore needn't see it. Dumbledore's main objective was to find out as much about Voldemort as he could, for which Snape was willing to give it all due to his infatuation with Lily, nothing else, and it proved successful.

Out of character? Yes, I'll agree. You can call it a tad of arrogance too from Dumbledore's part when he used Snape's love for Lily as a means to protect her son, but otherwise, the brilliance overshadowed it by a great distance.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by SDaniel

I'm not sure if you have discussed this already, but I wondered why did Dumbledore trust Snape.

I should think that Dumbledore didn't trust him, at first. He took a chance that Snape was sincere about protecting the Potters. He would not have given any secrets to Snape, but he would have found that Snape always gave him reliable information and learned to trust him over time.

When Lily died Dumbledore saw how distraught Snape was, he didn't need to be a mind reader, but I doubt Snape had his defenses up then. After that, he knew Snape would never forgive Voldemort.

As for seeing the best in people, Dumbledore wasn't good natured, like Lily. He knew you could be evil without realising it. That's what he had done, when he decided casualties were acceptable 'for the greater good'. He would have carried on working with Grindelwald if his sister hadn't died.

I think Dumbledore decided to trust Snape because he himself had done things he could never make up for, and wanted to be forgiven.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by SDaniel

One of the theories is that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow that he will never again work for Voldemort. Another one is that Dumbledore knew about Snape's great love for Lily Evans, and thought that Snape would never work for the one who murdered Lily. And the last that I know of is that Snape being a skillful Legilimens, hoodwinked Dumbledore into believing that Snape was his man.

I am puzzled. The series is written, and no reference to support theory 1 has ever been made. Theory 2, at least, has the benefit that it makes reference to known canon facts (Snape did love Lily, and Dumbledore did know this). Theory three seems contradicted by the revelations of Book 7, in which Snape lived and died according to Dumbledore's plan.

Personally, I think the answer is none of the above. It is what Dumbledore actually says about Snape and his trust for Snape, to Harry, within the text of the series. I don't believe he was deceiving Harry (he was avoiding revealing the whole story, but what he said was, IMO, a true accounting of his beliefs).

HBP 'Please let me finish.' Dumbledore waited until Harry had nodded curtly, then went on. 'Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -' Harry let out a yell of mirthless laughter. 'He hated my dad like he hated Sirius! Haven't you noticed, Professor, how the people Snape hates tend to end up dead?' 'You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realised how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned -'

Dumbledore believed Snape was genuinely remorseful, in other words, that he was genuinely overcome by moral anguish arising from repentance for past misdeeds. And so, he believed Snape could be trusted to work for the right side.

[Snapes_Girl]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

When Lily died Dumbledore saw how distraught Snape was, he didn't need to be a mind reader, but I doubt Snape had his defenses up then. After that, he knew Snape would never forgive Voldemort.

In addition to your response, to which I agree, DD could see that Snape was capable of loving someone. When one is capable of love, it is possible for that person to change and make a fresh start. Snape spent the rest of his life trying to make amends for what he did that resulted in Lily's death...the one person who was the love of his life. Love and trust go hand in hand.

[Gwendolen]

I think Dumbledore and Snape were certainly colleagues, probably friends, and I think Dumbledore was a mentor to Snape.

They lived and worked in the same building for years, and they several things in common. Snape was sarcastic, grouchy and hard to like as a teacher. He doesn't seem to have been like that with people he respected, such Dumbledore. Snape and Dumbledore had their own version of trolls to fight, working with the order, so I think they became friends. They seem to care for each other when Dumbledore's hand is injured, and when Dumbledore sees Snape's patronus.

Young Dumbledore was ready to accept casualties 'for the greater good'. The death of Ariana brought him to his senses. It made him realise he wasn't worthy to make choices for others. He thought he had been acting with the best intentions, but had been acting selfishly all along. As he was blind to his own flaws, he couldn't make the right choices for other people. He also felt himself responsible for Grindelwald's victims, because 'for the greater good' was Dumbledore's idea.

After that, he became a guide, not a leader. Instead of entering the ministry, he became a teacher. He decided to be a mentor, to help other people choose the right thing to do. I think that's what he did for Snape.

When Snape asked Dumbledore to save Lily, Dumbledore could have just said 'yes, of course'. He wouldn't have let her die whatever Snape had done. He didn't leave it at that, he asked Snape to do more.

Dumbledore said:

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Dumbledore's question seems to have made Snape think about what he was doing. From his reaction, it seems Snape hadn't thought about protecting them before. James was his worst enemy. If Lily had no family, Snape would have had her to himself. If Snape only tried to save Lily, saving her would be a selfish act, for his own benefit. Dumbledore offered Snape an opportunity to choose between saving Lily, or saving all of them. By giving his word to Dumbledore, Snape chose to do what was right.

After Lily's death, Dumbledore offered Snape a choice to protect Harry, and he took it. He did it grudgingly, and made many mistakes, but he did it for a boy he didn't like when he had nothing to gain from it. He did it because Dumbledore asked him, and because he knew it was what Lily would have wanted.

When Dumbledore told Snape Harry had to die, Snape said he'd been used. After he knew, Snape still decided that defeating Voldemort was the priority, as did Harry. Dumbledore didn't use Snape, Snape chose to be used. Snape decided to pass his memories to Harry, not Dumbledore.

There were some things Dumbledore didn't trust Snape with, but I think it was Snape's strength he didn't trust, not his desire to do the right thing. Dumbledore didn't even trust himself with the Hallows - he couldn't resist the lure of the resurrection stone. The wand and the stone are a bit like Sauron's Ring. They can't be destroyed, but if you use them they'll destroy you. The only safe way was not to use them. As long as Dumbledore didn't tell anyone, they wouldn't be tempted.

Dumbledore wasn't dying a natural death, he was dying from Voldemort's curse, which meant the power of the wand would not die with him. It had to go to someone else.

The fact that Dumbledore chose Snape shows a lot of faith in him. He trusted Snape not to go back on his word, and that if Snape figured out the wand on his own he would use it wisely. Snape put a lot of faith in Dumbledore, because Dumbledore refused to tell him the whole plan, but Snape still agreed to do as Dumbledore asked. He knew Dumbledore was capable of including Harry's death in his plans, and Dumbledore gave him no reason to believe he'd would survive either.

Choosing Snape to be the master of the wand was similar to asking Harry to go after the horcruxes. Snape was already in extreme danger, so why involve anyone else? Snape wasn't fully trusted anywhere. Only Dumbledore really trusted him, the rest of the order took Dumbledore's word. If Snape killed Dumbledore it would finally convince the death eaters of his true loyalties, which would protect him and allow him to remain at Hogwarts. Among the death eaters, knowing he was master of the elder wand would have been dangerous to Snape. Occlumens or not, if you are threatened and have an unbeatable wand it'd be hard to keep it secret.

Dumbledore also knew Snape would get a chance to defend himself if Voldemort thought he'd mastered the wand. The wand couldn't be won by stealth, it had to be won by strength. That's why Voldemort had to tell Snape what he was about to do. Without that chance for Snape to raise his wand, there would be no conflict and no winner.

Snape accepted his mission knowing that he might die, and knowing what Voldemort was capable of, so I don't think he would have felt betrayed by Dumbledore (if he had time to work it out). Dumbledore didn't let Snape think he was risking his life to save Harry. I don't think Dumbledore sent him on the mission knowing that he would die either, since the wand can be won without killing the previous master.

I think Dumbledore was acting in Snape's best interest, as far as he could. He was not trying to save Snape's life, but to save his soul. Snape had volutarily become a Death Eater, just as Dumbledore had voluntarily plotted with Grindelwald. Dumbledore couldn't undo what Snape had done, or make Snape a good person, because Snape had to make his own choices. What Dumbledore did was act as a mentor. He gave him a job at Hogwarts, a place in the Order, and reminded him of his duty. He gave Snape choices to make. Without Dumbledore, Snape would have gone to Azkaban and wouldn't have had a chance to redeem himself.

I think Harry named his son Albus Severus because he owed them, he respected them both, and regretted that he never got to know them when he had the chance.

[slytherin001]

I've always found it a bit interesting that Dumbledore is sometimes made out to be the ruthless villain because of what he did, regarding having Snape kill him and his plan offer Harry up as a sacrifice. But, bear in mind that Dumbledore was the leader of the Light. He was the war general. And sometimes ruthless tactics are what's needed if you are hoping to achieve something better than having the Dark prevail. War is not a time for coddling and thinking about the individual; it is a time for action and a time for thinking about the greater picture, the whole of society. Dumbledore's plan with the Elder Wand was genius. And it worked, because Voldemort never became Master of the wand. I don't fault Dumbledore for using his resources in a time of war. When Snape had said "Anything", he should have been prepared to give 'anything'. Besides, I think it would have been far worse if Dumbledore would have actually allowed Draco to kill him. But I do think that Dumbledore genuinely cared for Snape. He gave him another chance, he gave him penance and he allowed Snape to seek redemption. I think he was a mentor more than anything to Snape. I think, at the very least, they had a cordial relationship. It may have not been the best of friends type of relationship, mind, but I think there was a mutual respect between the two. I don't think Dumbledore just 'used' Snape in a way similar to one using a dishrag before tossing it out, worthless. To give Snape the tasks he did, showed that Dumbledore not only trusted him, but had a great deal of faith in him as well.

[mexicant]

Originally Posted by slytherin001

I don't think Dumbledore just 'used' Snape in a way similar to one using a dishrag before tossing it out, worthless. To give Snape the tasks he did, showed that Dumbledore not only trusted him, but had a great deal of faith in him as well.

I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive; I think that yes, Albus cared a great deal for Snape by the end. He would have to have been completely unfeeling not to, in my opinion, after all they went through in the series. However, he did rather callously use Snape and I highly doubt he thought that Severus would live to see the end of the war. He had faith in him, yes, but he also used that to his own ends. The fact that the reader sees his ends as being the ones they desire as well doesn't make Dumbledore using people like Snape to meet them any less true.

That's just my opinion, of course, but I think that Dumbledore was able to set aside his personal feelings for people in order to use them efficiently to get the end result he desired.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by mexicant

I don't see these things as being mutually exclusive; I think that yes, Albus cared a great deal for Snape by the end. He would have to have been completely unfeeling not to, in my opinion, after all they went through in the series. However, he did rather callously use Snape and I highly doubt he thought that Severus would live to see the end of the war. He had faith in him, yes, but he also used that to his own ends.

In the case of Snape, they were in my opinion, also Snape's own ends. More to the point, I think Dumbledore believed that he knew they were Snape's own ends. I agree he did not expect Snape would live to see the end of the war, but I think, also, that Snape did not expect to live to see the end of the war. So, as I see it, Dumbledore was being neither callous nor manipulative.

With one exception - he lied to both Harry and Snape, when he caused them both to believe that Harry had to die. Both of them accepted this. And both of their actions, because of this one lie Albus told them both, brought about what they both most wanted - that Harry would indeed live, and be free of the threat of Voldemort.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I never read this quote as Dumbledore making excuses for Snape. I think he's aware that Snape is unable to grow up and get over himself, but I don't think he's saying that Snape's behaviour was all right. He understands why Snape behaved as he did, but he does not say it was right or excusable.

The scene under discussion:

OotP `- how do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort, make it easier for him to get inside my -' `I trust Severus Snape,' said Dumbledore simply `But I forgot -another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.' `But that's OK, is it?' yelled Harry, ignoring the scandalised faces and disapproving mutterings of the portraits on the walls. `It's OK for Snape to hate my dad, but it's not OK for Sirius to hate Kreacher?'

A thing I love about Dumbledore, is that having committed grievous errors in his own youth, he does not go around judging other people. I find him to a large degree to be a character who lives the Christian maxim "Judge not, lest ye be judged." He is not excusing Snape's actions. He is not condemning them. He sees Harry is making a mistake.Snape was certainly not deliberately exposing Harry to Voldemort, protecting Harry from Voldemort was his purpose in life, one Dumbledore suggested to him after Lily's murder. So, he offers an explanation not to justify Snape or condemn him, but to help Harry understand Snape's actions are not motivated by loyalty to Voldemort.

I see the same approach to Snape in his conversation with Snape about Harry (PS/SS). Snape is clearly either not seeing, or ignoring, the positive traits other teachers have observed in Harry. Dumbledore just reiterates these for Snape's consideration.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

A thing I love about Dumbledore, is that having committed grievous errors in his own youth, he does not go around judging other people.

I like that about Dumbledore too. Although I think he does judge people, as when he sets young Tom Riddle's wardrobe on fire, or when he said "You disgust me!" to Snape. I think he understands that to err is human, because he's been through it himself.

I think Dumbledore was leaping to conclusions about why Snape stopped the lessons. It was Snape's feelings about Harry snooping in the pensieve that made him throw Harry out. I don't think Dumbledore asked Snape why he stopped the lessons, he assumed it was because Snape's feelings about James hadn't changed.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think Dumbledore was leaping to conclusions about why Snape stopped the lessons. It was Snape's feelings about Harry snooping in the pensieve that made him throw Harry out. I don't think Dumbledore asked Snape why he stopped the lessons, he assumed it was because Snape's feelings about James hadn't changed.

Or, alternatively, Snape told him exactly what had happened. Not just that Harry snooped in the Pensieve, but also what he saw in it. It would fit just as well with Dumbledore's comment.

I personally think Dumbledore's behavior in the first scene of "The Prince's Tale" in which he appears, is an example of what I mean. He does use harsh language, I agree, but I believe his underlying reasons for doing so are that he believes or hopes that there is something salvageable in Snape.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

f.

I think Dumbledore was leaping to conclusions about why Snape stopped the lessons. It was Snape's feelings about Harry snooping in the pensieve that made him throw Harry out. I don't think Dumbledore asked Snape why he stopped the lessons, he assumed it was because Snape's feelings about James hadn't changed.

Well, Dumbledore caught Harry in HIS pensieve, if I remember correctly, and told him there was nothing wrong with curiosity. Dumbledore didn't judge Harry for being curious. I think most people would have.

Snape was angry because Snape was still upset with James, and Harry saw that scene in his pensieve. Of course, the violation of privacy added to it all.

[Snapes_Girl]

Do you believe Dumbledore consciously saw the parallels between his own story and Snape's?

Absolutely! DD went through most of his life feeling remorse for the things he had/had not done as a young wizard, and I believe his own mistakes allowed him to understand Snape's predicament as well. Throughout the books, DD defends Snape to Harry because he understands what motivated Snape to turn away from a DE life. DD and Snape demonstrated that both were capable of loving someone...unlike Voldemort and love makes all the difference in the world.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Well, Dumbledore caught Harry in HIS pensieve, if I remember correctly, and told him there was nothing wrong with curiosity. Dumbledore didn't judge Harry for being curious. I think most people would have.

I think it would be a whole different matter if Harry had seen Dumbledore's worst memory in the pensieve, or if Harry had snooped and found out personal information Dumbledore specifically didn't want him to know.

I think Dumbledore was too sympathetic and understanding sometimes and it made him hestitate when it would have been better to act. He didn't want to face his own painful memories when he delayed fighting Grindelwald, so perhaps he was reluctant to bring up Snape's painful memories. It doesn't seem as if Dumbledore ever talked to Snape about Lily or his betrayal of her. Dumbledore was surprised to find out that Snape loved Lily, even though he knew that Snape still hated James. As Dumbledore was about the only person Snape could have talked to, it was a shame Dumbledore seems not to have asked.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think it would be a whole different matter if Harry had seen Dumbledore's worst memory in the pensieve, or if Harry had snooped and found out personal information Dumbledore specifically didn't want him to know.

Very true. But I also think Dumbledore knew why Snape ended the lessons.

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think Dumbledore was too sympathetic and understanding sometimes and it made him hestitate when it would have been better to act. He didn't want to face his own painful memories when he delayed fighting Grindelwald, so perhaps he was reluctant to bring up Snape's painful memories. It doesn't seem as if Dumbledore ever talked to Snape about Lily or his betrayal of her. Dumbledore was surprised to find out that Snape loved Lily, even though he knew that Snape still hated James. As Dumbledore was about the only person Snape could have talked to, it was a shame Dumbledore seems not to have asked.

I'm thinking that perhaps Snape had made it clear he didn't want to discuss Lily (remember when he asked Dumbledore not to reveal his feelings for her?). I don't even think Snape and DD discussed it. It would not have been part of the strategy for defeating LV.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

I'm thinking that perhaps Snape had made it clear he didn't want to discuss Lily (remember when he asked Dumbledore not to reveal his feelings for her?). I don't even think Snape and DD discussed it. It would not have been part of the strategy for defeating LV.

I think it would be out of character for Dumbledore or Snape to bring up personal issues, but it would have been better for both if they had.

I think the more Dumbledore understood how Snape felt, the more reluctant he would be to order him to continue the lessons.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think it would be out of character for Dumbledore or Snape to bring up personal issues, but it would have been better for both if they had.

Well, definitely for Snape, I think. I don't see the two as friends at all, though - just collaborators working towards a common goal. DD needed Snape's respect and willingness to follow the plan, rather than someone to share those issues with. I think Snape needed someone very badly to talk to, but he shut everyone out. Dumbledore never put all of his eggs in one basket, and he seemed comfortable keeping people out of his personal life.

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think the more Dumbledore understood how Snape felt, the more reluctant he would be to order him to continue the lessons.

Maybe. Too bad there was no one else who could have taught Harry, but of course we learn later that Occulmancy most likely would not have worked, while feeling love worked splendidly.

[slytherin001]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

Dumbledore was surprised to find out that Snape loved Lily, even though he knew that Snape still hated James.

Dumbledore was surprised that Snape still loved Lily, 16+ years after her death.

As Dumbledore was about the only person Snape could have talked to, it was a shame Dumbledore seems not to have asked.

Yea, and it's a shame Snape seems to have never opened up to Dumbledore more about it.

[The_Green_Woods]

From the Severus Snape thread

Also if Hermione was 'looking for a reason to explain Snape's behaviour', I think that's more because she still fully trusted Dumbledore and couldn't believe he made such a mistake, rather than believing Snape was a good person even after committing murder.

Absolutely. I agree. In fact, I would have liked the Order to be more like her; not believe Dumbledore could have made such a mistake, confident and trusting of their leader. These people had followed Dumbledore unquestioningly for over 20 years and in one minute, they all came to a conclusion that Dumbledore had after all been fooled and had been fooled for over 16 years by Snape. But, Hermione in my view was more intelligent and trusting of the man she had chosen to follow and she refused to believe he would be taken in so simply as that and fo so long. Perhaps that is why Dumbledore left the job to Harry, his friends and Snape, rather than trust the Order that did not trust him enough to question his death/ask his portrait before coming to conclusions IMO.