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Did the Sorting Hat Mis-Sort Key Characters?



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  #61  
Old December 29th, 2007, 6:20 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

I would have to say that the hat did mis-sort some characters. I actually think that the whole process seems rather flawed, since what seems to count most is where you desperately want to be - that's the only reason I can think of for Pettigrew ending up in Gryffindor and look how that turned out! Now, I know there is a theme of 'choice' running through the series, but in real life there are very few situations where an 11-year-old's choice would be regarded as something that should determine their future for years beyond that. I would be happier with the Sorting if it was clear that a student's potential was given the most consideration.


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  #62  
Old December 29th, 2007, 6:38 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

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Originally Posted by SoulOfRebirth View Post
Students sort themselves. This is the underlying theme of the series: choice.

The hat's voice is within the student's own head. Imagined. I believe JKR confirmed that the hat's voice is different for each wearer. This is because the hat never speaks, and the dialogue is internal, within the student's own mind.

Several students appear "mis-sorted" because they made their choices either to keep in line with family tradition, or to stick with friends. Snape was a Slytherin because he would be appalled to be associated with the Gryffindor boys. Peter chose Gryffindor (most likely) to stick with James and Sirius. Ron chose Gryffindor because his family did. Malfoy chose Slytherin because his family did. Hermione initially considered Ravenclaw, but eventually decided on Gryffindor (though we don't know why). Harry chose "not Slytherin" because he had heard bad things about Slytherin; though he privately wonders if he would have been better suited in Slytherin for the first two books.
Total and complete agreement! That also fits in with the idea that you can become the person you want to become...You are *master* of your own destiny (and this coincides with LV's choice with Harry/Neville). Couldn't have said it better myself! :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Graduand_Esk View Post
I Now, I know there is a theme of 'choice' running through the series, but in real life there are very few situations where an 11-year-old's choice would be regarded as something that should determine their future for years beyond that. I would be happier with the Sorting if it was clear that a student's potential was given the most consideration.
There may be an element of that in the decision too, with some one's potential perhaps outlaying their actual talents and mindset at the time. Neville, for instance, took some time to come out of his shell (I remember more than a few people, including myself, speculating that Neville should have been a Hufflepuff), but he did turn out to be quite the Gryffindor after all...!


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  #63  
Old December 29th, 2007, 8:14 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

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Originally Posted by Graduand_Esk View Post
I would have to say that the hat did mis-sort some characters. I actually think that the whole process seems rather flawed, since what seems to count most is where you desperately want to be - that's the only reason I can think of for Pettigrew ending up in Gryffindor and look how that turned out! Now, I know there is a theme of 'choice' running through the series, but in real life there are very few situations where an 11-year-old's choice would be regarded as something that should determine their future for years beyond that. I would be happier with the Sorting if it was clear that a student's potential was given the most consideration.
yeah i agree, at the age of 11 people really aren't ready to make a choice that will decide their lives so I think that what the hat sees in their personalities is more important, but on the other hand someone's personality can change dramatically as they grow up.


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  #64  
Old December 29th, 2007, 8:40 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

I believe the sorting hat doesn't really sort completely based upon each person's characteristics, but rather where the want to be put in. As people have stated before, Harry chose Gryffindor because he repeated the mantra "not Slytherin" in his mind whilst the sorting hat was sorting him.

But, if we are basing this assumption that the sorting hat places some characters in the wrong house on solely their traits, then yes, I do believe the sorting hat misplaced one character. Peter Pettigrew. He was never brave or courageous, but rather cowardly and scared. He could not stand up to those more powerful than him (Voldemort), and therefore betrayed his friend. Honestly, I don't know which house he should have bee sorted it. Not Gryffindor, because of the reasons stated above. Not Slytherin, because, although he might have been sort of sly, he is definitely not cunning. Not Ravenclaw, because he didn't seem too knowledgeable. And not Hufflepuff because he is obviously not loyal.


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  #65  
Old December 29th, 2007, 8:55 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

I don't understand to this day why on earth Pettigrew was in Gryffibdor


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  #66  
Old December 31st, 2007, 12:08 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

A lot of people have commented on Peter Pettigrew being a Gryffindor as an example of a mis-sorted student. I don't think the Hat mis-sorted students per se, but as has already been mentioned, Peter didn't have the appropriate characteristics for any other house either, (except perhaps Slytherin) he wasn't exactly intelligent, definitely not loyal. The thing is, we also have Crabbe and Goyle, not exactly what you would call sly characters, bullies, perhaps, but Malfoy's lackeys, who seem incapable of independent thought really, until Crabbes' Fiendfyre and look how well that turned out for him.
Then we have Zacharias Smith, who displayed amazing Hufflepuff loyalty by pushing younger students out of his way to flee before the battle.

My point is, yes, there are characters whose personality traits seem to indicate that they would not be suited to the house they are in, and I don't want to say they were Sorted by default, the Hat didn't decide, "Ok, he's not loyal, brave, intelligent or cunning, random choice, Gryffindor." Not quite, but I do think that if someone, such as Pettigrew, is being sorted, whose skills don't strongly exemplify any one House, (or someone such as Hermione, whose skills strongly exemplify more than one), the Hat will decide based on what that person values most, clearly Hermione valued courage above intelligence. And although Peter Pettigrew doesn't display courage, it must have been something he valued, perhaps hoped to develop himself. He may have had potential for courage that he didn't act upon.


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  #67  
Old December 31st, 2007, 12:19 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

I don't know if anyone will actually want to read this but I wrote an essay about why Peter was put in Gryffindor a while back for a prompt on another site. Here it is:

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Messers Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs. Four Gryffindor’s, three heroes and one cowering, slimy git. What was it that made the little lump of a boy who spent his life hiding behind someone else’s shadow worthy of the Gryffindor house, known for the brave, the true, the heroes? The Peter Pettigrew we watched throughout the books was certainly not a hero, he couldn’t possibly have been called nobly courageous, and yet the Sorting Hat placed him in Gryffindor house—the house of the ‘brave at heart’. There are two important things that must first be analyzed before we find the answer to a seemingly contradictory assignment: The true character of Peter and the way the Sorting Hat thinks and reacts. There is a myriad of possibilities to explore each very intriguing and though-provoking. Let’s explore.

In order to find our answer we have to first understand our tool, the sorting hat was created centuries previously to Harry’s era by the four founders of Hogwarts school. The sorting hat is a pretty crazy thing to put it blatantly. It seems almost like a paradox at times that something can simultaneously place you both where you want to be and where you should be even when the two appear to contradict. We know that it can see inside your head, that it can hear your thoughts and that it accepts your choice when you ask for it.

So what about Peter? What did the hat see in his head? What was he thinking? What was his choice? Peter was first and foremost a follower in pretty much everything he did. He was afraid of his own shadow and he was just content to be safely under someone else’s protection which is what James and the other marauders and eventually Voldemort, offered him.

But what about who he became? If the sorting hat could see the potential within him for the murderous, lying, cowering traitor he became shouldn’t he have been sent straight off to Slytherin? There are a few possible factors here that I think are important to address. Firstly, there is the debate over what exactly ‘bravery’ means. With Gryffindor, bravery is usually in the context of someone noble, bravely fighting for good but the word itself, the trait, does not have to be entirely for the acts of right. For everything there is an opposite. Peter was a coward in the true-Gryffindor sense, but he did have a sense of daring about him. His form of bravery was sprung out of his self-preservations instincts but it was still definitely bravery. He betrayed his friends, everyone who trusted him and turned them in to Voldemort. That takes some crazy amount of courage, a different sort of courage yes, but still courage. Perhaps the hat saw that his heart was willing to do anything for survival, perhaps it found the boldness of self-preservation so strong in him that he belonged in Gryffindor. That’s one option.

The second is that he chose Gryffindor himself which would be very probable considering his eagerness to follow the trends of the moment. Nearly every student who comes to Hogwarts, the muggleborns the only real exception, has heard the tales and stories of its four houses and most already have their prejudices and preconceptions of them in their heads so I don’t doubt that Peter had heard of the legends of the Gryffindor house (which was clearly favored by many normal wizarding families) and was drawn to it because it was the house of heroes—plenty of potential for people to follow. The ‘in’ thing at the time was Gryffindor so it must have appealed to him greatly and it’s easy to picture him fervently wishing to be put in the Gryffindor house and the hat, as always, obliging.

One final possibility is that the hat just didn’t see his future at all. At the time he was just an average boy eager to join the ranks of the ‘big boys’ and perhaps the hat could only see his mind as it was at the time and not what he would become. In that case it’s important to note that his personality at the time was still not suited for Slytherin or any of the other houses besides Gryffindor for that matter. He was ultimately out for his own gain but the thing that usually defines the Slytherin house is their longing for power, their use of cunning to put themselves above others and Peter didn’t want the limelight, he didn’t want power for himself he just wanted to be the leech to someone else’s power. Obviously he was never one for great brain power and he wasn’t into academics (we see that quite plainly in the chapter ‘Snape’s Worst Memory’ of the fifth book as the marauders take their exams and Peter is nervously chewing his fingers and trying to get a glance at his neighbors papers) so he definitely doesn’t fit in Ravenclaw. Hufflepuff is for hard workers, the down-to earth, sweat-of-the-brow type of people which is probably the farthest you can get from Peter’s personality who uses the achievements and skills of his betters to hide under (sort of like that self-absorbed, lilac-loving DADA professor we all know and love). The only thing that can really find a home for him is Gryffindor, his unconventional form of bravery is the only thing that matches any of the houses and therefore is the only choice if the sorting hat was, in fact, blind to his future.

So all the options are laid out and examined but what is it that seems most likely to be the answer? I think it’s the last option, that the sorting hat could not see what Peter Pettigrew would become, linked with the second option that explains why Peter got sorted to Gryffindor. We were never given too much information on the way the sorting hat works but I think it’s safe to say that it is based on the mind and one’s mind doesn’t hold anything but the past and present so there couldn’t have been any evidence of what he would become in what the hat could see. The Peter we know as the traitor and murder didn’t evolve until decades later and the sorting hat could not have known. Peter and his unique brand of daring were eager to test themselves out among the legendary and well-known Gryffindor population. The Sorting would have had seen only a boy bent on his own desires to be among those brave and, as we know by Harry’s example, the Sorting hat takes desires into consideration. His desires were not the Slytherin’s lust for power, nor the Ravenclaw search for knowledge, nor did he possess any great talent for hard-work so the sorting hat really mustn’t have had much of a choice. Peter longed for Gryffindor. Everything was, at the time, leaning towards the red and gold and that’s what the hat gave him. The traitor was sent to live among his victims and that was the end of that and the beginning of Harry Potter’s legend.


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  #68  
Old December 31st, 2007, 12:48 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

Sorry, katishere, haven't figured out how to quote something that is already a quote, but your essay is one of the most interesting and insightful perspectives on Pettigrew's sorting I've noticed on this thread, the idea that for everything there is an opposite and that although Peter's "unconventional form of bravery" would to a thinking person put him in Slytherin (self-preservation and all that) it was a form of bravery to the hat. It also gets across something I haven't really thought about, the hat is not a sentient being, it is like a computer programme, for example, spell-check will detect mis-spelt words, but not homonyms so much, e.g. bred/bread. The hat does what it is programmed/charmed to do, it doesn't have the capacity for independent thought. That really sprang to mind reading your post.


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  #69  
Old December 31st, 2007, 12:57 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

"...I sometimes think we sort too soon..."~ Albus Dumbledore. Period.

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  #70  
Old December 31st, 2007, 1:19 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

One would think so,but JK says it didnt and the hat says so too,I was just reading goblet and in his song ,he says ,Ive never been wrong yet...


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  #71  
Old December 31st, 2007, 2:28 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

one thing to remember is that the house they are sorted into does not have any affect on their lives outside of Hogwarts. I don't think that the hat can see the future and know what they will become, it sees what kind of person they are now and sorts for that purpose.

Yes choice does come into it in some cases, but I feel that only a few will utilise that choice, because any of the 11 year olds that we saw being sorted always seemed to be a bit nervous and scared so I can't imagine them asking the hat to put them in a specific house.


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  #72  
Old December 31st, 2007, 8:06 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

Didn't JKR say that the Sorting Hat was always right? I think she said it in an interview, but can't remember when or where.


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  #73  
Old December 31st, 2007, 8:18 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

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Originally Posted by Magi View Post
Didn't JKR say that the Sorting Hat was always right? I think she said it in an interview, but can't remember when or where.
She said the Sorting Hat was "sincere." I took that to mean that the Hat tries to do it's job. I just question whether the system is fair in any way, since it "sorts too soon" as Dumbledore says in DH.

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm

Arianna: Can we believe everything the sorting hat says?
JK Rowling replies -> The Sorting Hat is certainly sincere.


About Peter: I think the Hat was right to put him in Gryffindor. He was brave, but he used it for all the wrong reasons.

He knew his friends might kill him as a traitor, but he went over to Voldemort's side anyway. We don't know all the reasons, except fear and a lack of conscience about his friends, but it still took guts to go as bad as he did.

Then he brought Voldemort back from the dead, which meant becoming a rat in a snake's world - a very brave thing. Even Voldemort respected bravery. I think Bellatrix was brave also, but just using it for the bad side.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; December 31st, 2007 at 8:22 am.
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  #74  
Old December 31st, 2007, 11:27 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

Ah, thanks for that.


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  #75  
Old December 31st, 2007, 8:52 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

*Points to post I made earlier in this topic...*

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Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81 View Post
Even though he never showed it, in a way, you could say he was brave by purposely hanging around with a werewolf and becoming an unregistered animagus/animagi (sp?) to keep hanging around him when young. What he was doing was illegal and dangerous, and, imo, he couldn't have always been bad. These actions here are minuscule, but it's something and showed some type of bravery. I do wish he would've had more of a "revelation" type moment, though. You know, his having an internal struggle on doing the right thing and paying back Harry for the life debt he owed him. I'll admit that this was one of the things I didn't theorize correctly. I was correct, as I figured prior to reading that he was going to get killed out, but I figured it would've been for a noble reason...not a technicality.

Thinking about it...seems Wormtail would've fit in Hufflepuff better, to some extent. He did show loyalty, but only to those he felt would suit him best, which is the only downside to it, which could be seen as a Slytherin trait (looking out for number 1).


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Old January 5th, 2008, 5:24 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?


[This might be Off-Topic but I'm posting anyway]
After finishing the last book just a few days ago, I've put some thought into the various houses and why they're usually introduced in the order of:
Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Slytherin.

The students are placed in the houses based on their qualities and personality (hidden and evident). But the way I see it not from the sorting stand point but symbolically, they seem to be the varying degrees of ethics and moral of a person. I'm not saying that this is what the houses represent or lack of.

Gryffindor being courageous and brave tend to be seen as self-sacrificing like any knight should be. That is followed by Hufflepuff that values loyalty. Ravenclaw is rather neutral in a way that they don't go all out for personal ambitions but neither are they self-sacrificing or loyal.

Its like a person's change in character from a Slytherin to a Gryffindor. I would think that everyone in life starts out as a Slytherin (not sorted into) and slowly grows as a person into a Gryffindor. I'm not saying that Slytherin is a place of flawed characters but the qualities they value can very easily be viewed as negative personality traits but thats just the way we are.

My views have nothing to do with the magic of the hat being able to see the hidden potential and qualities of a person and the age debate as to whether or not they're too young to be sorted but I'm just analyzing the houses symbolically.

I'll be posting about mis-sorting and the age debate going on here once I've thought them through...


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  #77  
Old January 5th, 2008, 5:48 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

We seem to have a lot of contradictory information on the Sorting Hat and the Sorting, because Jo told us in the Mugglenet/Leaky interview after HBP that the Sorting Hat was never wrong, yet she has also said recently that she believes what Dumbledore said about sorting to early. Is it possible that for characters who are younger and have an ambition to get into a certain house (i.e. Snape) that the sorting hat was correct to put them in that house, for the age they are at. But that assignment doesn't mean the characters couldn't have fit into another house later in life?


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  #78  
Old January 5th, 2008, 6:58 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

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Originally Posted by FreeAlph View Post
Its like a person's change in character from a Slytherin to a Gryffindor. I would think that everyone in life starts out as a Slytherin (not sorted into) and slowly grows as a person into a Gryffindor. I'm not saying that Slytherin is a place of flawed characters but the qualities they value can very easily be viewed as negative personality traits but thats just the way we are.
I would say that Slytherins are more immature and somewhat naive, not just bad/evil people. You're right - everyone starts out as selfish. It's human nature. All we desire as babies and children is food and toys! As we grow we learn morals and are taught to become "better" people. It's not in human nature to naturally become "better" as we grow - we're forced to become "better" by our teachers and parents in order to fit in and make it in the world.

Slytherins, in my opinion, don't progress as much. They remain childish and are concerned with material goods and power.

I'm still very upset over how Slytherins were portrayed in the last book. None of them stayed behind to fight, which I find ridiculous. I never viewed Slytherin students as purely evil, and for Rowling to portray them that way seemed lazy and wrong. Why do they have to be so one dimensional?


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  #79  
Old January 7th, 2008, 8:27 am
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

Peter was the odd man out, but then again.....not everything is Black and White!


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  #80  
Old January 7th, 2008, 12:19 pm
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Re: Did the Sorting Hat Mis-sort Key Characters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Godric View Post
We seem to have a lot of contradictory information on the Sorting Hat and the Sorting, because Jo told us in the Mugglenet/Leaky interview after HBP that the Sorting Hat was never wrong, yet she has also said recently that she believes what Dumbledore said about sorting to early. Is it possible that for characters who are younger and have an ambition to get into a certain house (i.e. Snape) that the sorting hat was correct to put them in that house, for the age they are at. But that assignment doesn't mean the characters couldn't have fit into another house later in life?
Hmmm...

I think what Dumbledore meant by "we sort too early", is that by sorting children into houses so early in their schooling, they end up stereotyped and roped into a mould that might not necessarily fit them completely. Some children may eventually grow into the mould, while others will have bits sticking out of the mould, like Snape and Hermione.

Basically, early sorting gives false first impressions. I think that is what Dumbledore was thinking.

There is no doubt in my mind that Snape was a Slytherin. Even when in love, he was a Slytherin through and through. His love was extremely self-centred, thinking only of benefits to himself rather than to the subject of his love. He didn't think about Lily's happiness with James, he loathed the fact that James had overshadowed him in Lily's eyes, and felt sorry only for himself that he didn't receive the love he craved from Lily.

If Snape hadn't been sorted into Slytherin, he might not have been as negatively influenced by all the truly "bad" Slytherins, and therefore may have avoided the Death Eaters' life. His relationship with Lily may have had a better chance to grow and come to full bloom, instead of being nipped at the bud because of the Gryffindor and Slytherin separation.


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