Ron or Hermione?: Harry's Truest Friend

[freeelf]

It seems you have something against Ron. While you come up with some valid points, I think that your evidence is skewed and partially biased against Mr. Weasley.
Two things you must remember: the first is that Hermione is a girl. She's going to more in tune with Harry's feelings and thoughts, because most girls are better at that kind of think than guys are. Furthermore, Hermione is really intelligent. So she's going to be able to quickly come up with ideas and be able to perform tasks better than Ron on most occasions.
And finally - my two cents to throw in. In DH when Harry tells Ron he loves Hermione like a sister, he really means a sister. He doesn't mean he just doesn't love her romantically, Hermione really is Harry's family. I'm sure Hermione feels the same way about Harry. (Her family doesn't know who she is any more) Hermione is loyal to Harry in the same way that Ron is loyal to Ginny. It is deeper than just being friends, Harry and Hermione rely on each other, they're comfortable with each other. It doesn't mean that Hermione is a better friend, it just means that Harry's relationship with her is different from his relationship with Ron.

[PotterGurl08]

I think this was a great editorial, and I agree that Hermione is the "better" friend. I feel she is the better friend for one main reason--she never once abandoned Harry the way Ron did.

Sure, Ron always came back, which is a mark of loyalty. And this is an honorable quality in him. However, it cannot be ignored that Ron did indeed abandon Harry during the times when Harry needed the most support--when someone put his name in the GOF, and during the horcrux search in DH. These were terrible, terrible moments to leave someone who is supposed to be your best friend.

Through it all though, I think another thing that has to be considered is Ron's level of maturity. Ron grew leaps and bounds in maturity after his return in DH. Prior to that, I feel that both Harry and Hermione were more mature than Ron, and hence, they were able to be "better" friends to each other. Ron harbored some serious insecurities, and perhaps this has something to do with growing up in a big family who was poor, as well as feeling overshadowed by older brothers, and not having the luxury of being the youngest (or the only girl).

When it comes to relationships--whether it be friendships or romances, a person is never going to truly know how to be completely loving and accepting of another person until he/she learns to be loving and accepting of the self. Ron was insecure with himself and in my opinion, did not have the best self-esteem. And hence, he had to take some time to deal with his own inner turmoil and insecurity, before he could come back in DH and finally become the "best" friend he could be to Harry, and deserving to love and be loved by Hermione.

So in short, Hermione is the "better" friend because she is more mature than Ron, and apparently did not have as many inner struggles to deal with as Ron did. Therefore, she was capable of showing unwavering friendship and loyalty, where as Ron needed more time to mature before he could do the same.

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by PotterGurl08

Sure, Ron always came back, which is a mark of loyalty. And this is an honorable quality in him. However, it cannot be ignored that Ron did indeed abandon Harry during the times when Harry needed the most support--when someone put his name in the GOF, and during the horcrux search in DH. These were terrible, terrible moments to leave someone who is supposed to be your best friend.

There's a flaw with this argument, though. Harry was just as much at fault for that "misunderstanding" as Ron was. Ron asked a question, Harry didn't answer it. Harry didn't show he trusted Ron enough to share what Dumbledore and the others had theorized, that someone put his name in as a way to try and kill him. Harry also was set up (by JKR) to look as if he'd been celebrating his victory before bumping into Ron, so that made Harry look guilty to him as well, and Ron also pointed out that Harry had said that if he were to enter the contest, he'd do so when no one else was around. Ron had a valid reason to doubt Harry for once as opposed to just blindly following his opinion, like he had in the previous three books.

Both boys were at fault. Harry should've been more open with Ron and not assume that Ron will always blindly accept what he says, because no matter how envious Ron was, I doubt he would've left Harry (after he implied that he was stupid) if he would've told the boy what Dumbledore's theory was since he had respect for the man. That, imo, would've been much to out of character for him.

So in short, Hermione is the "better" friend because she is more mature than Ron, and apparently did not have as many inner struggles to deal with as Ron did. Therefore, she was capable of showing unwavering friendship and loyalty, where as Ron needed more time to mature before he could do the same.

IMO, I still don't see how Hermione was the "better" friend, since, to me, they were both good friends to Harry in their own ways. I don't feel maturity has anything to do with it in this regard. Ron was always loyal to Harry, even in GoF he was, even though he and Harry weren't on speaking terms. He was still shown to be worried about Harry and he also was never shown being against Harry as a champion. Even in PoA, when he and Hermione weren't on speaking terms, he still showed to worry over her and about her and notice things out of the ordinary with her.

The thing with DH is very obvious to me. He had a lot on his plate for that one, as did Hermione, but it was shown that the locket affected Ron a lot more than it did Hermione or Harry. It's like how the Diary had that strong effect on Ginny. The locket played up Ron's insecurities big time. He left, but time he got out of range of the locket, he wanted to come straight back. To me, this isn't disloyalty. This is "cooling off after a fight". He realized his mistake after getting back to his normal self. The only way I could fault Ron is if there were no other factors in the equation, meaning he acted that way all on his own accord with no outside interferences.

The only thing I felt was the main point of Ron's leaving in DH (aside from plot convenience, since I figured that one of them would have to leave at some point to reemphasize how well they work together as a trio, and how it made the most sense for it to be Ron since he's the only one with Wizarding World connections) was mostly to mature him up for Hermione, not Harry.

[PotterGurl08]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

There's a flaw with this argument, though. Harry was just as much at fault for that "misunderstanding" as Ron was. Ron asked a question, Harry didn't answer it. Harry didn't show he trusted Ron enough to share what Dumbledore and the others had theorized, that someone put his name in as a way to try and kill him. Harry also was set up (by JKR) to look as if he'd been celebrating his victory before bumping into Ron, so that made Harry look guilty to him as well, and Ron also pointed out that Harry had said that if he were to enter the contest, he'd do so when no one else was around. Ron had a valid reason to doubt Harry for once as opposed to just blindly following his opinion, like he had in the previous three books.

Both boys were at fault. Harry should've been more open with Ron and not assume that Ron will always blindly accept what he says, because no matter how envious Ron was, I doubt he would've left Harry (after he implied that he was stupid) if he would've told the boy what Dumbledore's theory was since he had respect for the man. That, imo, would've been much to out of character for him.

I'm not sure I see it this way...
I could by fuzzy on the details, but in GOF, I remember Ron simply thinking Harry was lying right from the start. First he was annoyed, and then when Harry tried to explain that he had not put his name in the goblet, Ron just was not buying it. As I was reading, this frankly made me a bit annoyed with Ron because this was his 4th year of knowing Harry, and Harry had never once lied to Ron before. So why Ron suddenly thought Harry would be lying was beyond me. To me, it just felt like jealousy got in the way, and Ron obviously struggled with jealousy issues right until DH when he finally came back to his senses after leaving Harry and Hermione.
Contrast Ron's reaction to Hermione's--Hermione, after knowing Harry for 3 years previously, knew and understood that Harry would not have snuck his name into the goblet and that he was not lying to her.
As for saying Harry should have told Ron what Dumbledore said--Well, both boys were so angry with each other and emotions were running high, it prevented a sensible conversation from happening. I feel that Ron did not want to hear any of Harry's explanations (or in his mind, excuses), and Harry did not care to explain himself if he was going to be called a liar, especially since he had never lied to Ron before. They both got a bit stubborn, but I'm on Harry's side with this one. I'd have been uspet too if I were Harry. And if I were Ron, I would have at least tried to hear what Harry had to say.

IMO, I still don't see how Hermione was the "better" friend, since, to me, they were both good friends to Harry in their own ways. I don't feel maturity has anything to do with it in this regard. Ron was always loyal to Harry, even in GoF he was, even though he and Harry weren't on speaking terms. He was still shown to be worried about Harry and he also was never shown being against Harry as a champion. Even in PoA, when he and Hermione weren't on speaking terms, he still showed to worry over her and about her and notice things out of the ordinary with her.

The thing with DH is very obvious to me. He had a lot on his plate for that one, as did Hermione, but it was shown that the locket affected Ron a lot more than it did Hermione or Harry. It's like how the Diary had that strong effect on Ginny. The locket played up Ron's insecurities big time. He left, but time he got out of range of the locket, he wanted to come straight back. To me, this isn't disloyalty. This is "cooling off after a fight". He realized his mistake after getting back to his normal self. The only way I could fault Ron is if there were no other factors in the equation, meaning he acted that way all on his own accord with no outside interferences.

The only thing I felt was the main point of Ron's leaving in DH (aside from plot convenience, since I figured that one of them would have to leave at some point to reemphasize how well they work together as a trio, and how it made the most sense for it to be Ron since he's the only one with Wizarding World connections) was mostly to mature him up for Hermione, not Harry.

Just to be clear, I think both Ron and Hermione were good friends to Harry too. And I view them as both equally his 'best' friends. However, I just feel that Hermione was better and maintaining and carrying out her friendship with Harry, particularly through key moments in the series, because she was more mature.

It is clear that Harry and Ron loved each other, and just like people who love each other, sometimes they hurt each other the most.

I still think a major factor in this is Ron's maturity. I know that in DH, the horcrux locket had a stronger impact on Ron than it did Harry and Hermione. And to me, the reason for this is Ron's maturity. Ron harbored some pretty immature feelings, imo. Thinking that his mother, Mrs. Weasley, who loved all her children no matter what (even Percy after being a jerk), somehow loved Harry more than him? Thinking that the journey to find horcruxes would go smoothly (and then mentioning that he thought Dumbledore would have given Harry more information?? What was this supposed to mean? That if he knew what little information Harry had, he would not have wanted to join him?). And then, with the enormous task on their hands of finding horcruxes, thinking that Harry & Hermione were sneaking round romantically behind his back? The locket horcrux only intensified the fears that were already there--so all of this was stuff that was playing around in Ron's head to some degree. And I do find it a bit immature. And because he had these slightly hostile/insecure/immature feelings, the horcrux was able to feed off him more than with Harry and Hermione, who did not have so much going on inside of them. So this, to me, is very foretelling of Ron's character.

I agree with you though, that Ron did need to go away and ultimately mature, more for Hermione's sake so that they could be together, more than for Harry's sake--because as best friends, Harry and Ron would be able to eventually forgive each other. With Hermione, as a romantic interest, things may have never worked out for them if Ron stayed as immature as he was.

And I hope it doesn't sound like I'm Ron bashing. I like Ron very much.
When he returned and destroyed the horcrux in DH, my heart broke and swole for him at the same time, lol.

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by PotterGurl08

I'm not sure I see it this way...
I could by fuzzy on the details, but in GOF, I remember Ron simply thinking Harry was lying right from the start. First he was annoyed, and then when Harry tried to explain that he had not put his name in the goblet, Ron just was not buying it. As I was reading, this frankly made me a bit annoyed with Ron because this was his 4th year of knowing Harry, and Harry had never once lied to Ron before. So why Ron suddenly thought Harry would be lying was beyond me.

Because the evidence was stacked up against Harry this time, for Ron to question it in the first place. Harry stated that if he ever put his name in, he'd do it when no one was around. Ron asked Harry why anyone would put in his name, Harry didn't give a straight answer in fear of sounding overly "dramatic". When Harry entered the room, he looked as if he'd been celebrating his victory of being a Champion. Usually, Harry always meet up with Ron or Hermione to share stuff with them that he wouldn't anyone else. Ron had every right to question Harry. All Ron wanted was an honest answer, and Harry didn't give it which shows that Harry didn't trust Ron enough to tell him anything.

IMO, the fight wouldn't have even lasted as long as it had if Harry had shared what Dumbledore had said in the first place because if Ron would've thought he was lying even after that, then that'd be highly out of character for Ron.

Contrast Ron's reaction to Hermione's--Hermione, after knowing Harry for 3 years previously, knew and understood that Harry would not have snuck his name into the goblet and that he was not lying to her.

But Hermione didn't see what Ron did. Like I said, when Harry entered the dormitory, he looked as if he'd been celebrating his victory. What other assumption would you make from that? Why would JKR write that to begin with if she didn't want Ron to have reasonable doubts?

As for saying Harry should have told Ron what Dumbledore said--Well, both boys were so angry with each other and emotions were running high, it prevented a sensible conversation from happening.

I don't think it would have, since Ron kept asking questions, no temper flare up. In the text, the only one getting short-patient was Harry. Ron didn't seem to "lash out" until Harry called him stupid. Ron was giving him plenty of opportunity to properly explain himself.

I feel that Ron did not want to hear any of Harry's explanations (or in his mind, excuses), and Harry did not care to explain himself if he was going to be called a liar, especially since he had never lied to Ron before. They both got a bit stubborn, but I'm on Harry's side with this one. I'd have been uspet too if I were Harry. And if I were Ron, I would have at least tried to hear what Harry had to say.

Now I disagree with that because, to me, Ron was phishing for an explanation. A logical one. Harry never once tried to explain himself.

Spoiler: show

GoF, pp 181-182

To his great relief, he found Ron was lying on his bed in the otherwise empty dormitory, still fully dressed. He looked up when Harry slammed the door behind him.

“Where’ve you been?” Harry said.

“Oh hello,” said Ron.

He was grinning, but it was a very odd, strained sort of grin. Harry suddenly became aware that he was still wearing the scarlet Gryffindor banner that Lee had tied around him. He hastened to take it off, but it was knotted very tightly. Ron lay on the bed without moving, watching Harry struggle to remove it.

“So,” he said, when Harry had finally removed the banner and thrown it into a corner. “Congratulations.”

“What d’you mean, congratulations?” said Harry, staring at Ron. There was definitely something wrong with the way Ron was smiling: It was more like a grimace.

“Well… no one else got across the Age Line,” said Ron. “Not even Fred and George. What did you use - the Invisibility Cloak?”

“The Invisibility Cloak wouldn’t have got me over that line,” said Harry slowly.

“Oh right,” said Ron. “I thought you might’ve told me if it was the cloak… because it would’ve covered both of us, wouldn’t it? But you found another way, did you?”

“Listen,” said Harry, “I didn’t put my name in that goblet. Someone else must’ve done it.”

Ron raised his eyebrows.

“What would they do that for?”

“I dunno,” said Harry. He felt it would sound very melodramatic to say, “To kill me.”

Ron’s eyebrows rose so high that they were in danger of disappearing into his hair.

“It’s okay, you know, you can tell me the truth,” he said. “If you don’t want everyone else to know, fine, but I don’t know why you’re bothering to lie, you didn’t get into trouble for it, did you? That friend of the Fat Lady’s, that Violet, she’s already told us all Dumbledore’s letting you enter. A thousand Galleons prize money, eh? And you don’t have to do end-of-year tests either…”

“I didn’t put my name in that goblet!” said Harry, starting to feel angry.

“Yeah, okay,” said Ron, in exactly the same skeptical tone as Cedric. “Only you said this morning you’d have done it last night, and no one would’ve seen you… I’m not stupid, you know.”

“You’re doing a really good impression of it,” Harry snapped.

“Yeah?” said Ron, and there was no trace of a grin, forced or otherwise, on his face now. “You want to get to bed, Harry. I expect you’ll need to be up early tomorrow for a photo-call or something.”

He wrenched the hangings shut around his four-poster, leaving Harry standing there by the door, staring at the dark red velvet curtains, now hiding one of the few people he had been sure would believe him.

IMO, Ron was really trying to get a reasonable explanation or a theory or something, but Harry never did. Ron didn't get "mad" until Harry said that Ron was stupid (even though Ron brought it on himself, technically).

Thinking that his mother, Mrs. Weasley, who loved all her children no matter what (even Percy after being a jerk), somehow loved Harry more than him?

Well, Mrs. Weasley did seem to dote on him way more than Ron (understandable), and the impression I get is that even without Harry around, he was overlooked a lot.

Thinking that the journey to find horcruxes would go smoothly (and then mentioning that he thought Dumbledore would have given Harry more information?? What was this supposed to mean?

He expected that he would've given him more information. Black and white to me, with that explanation. Also, both Ron and Hermione had discussed it amongst themselves anyway about that.

Also, Ron had a lot on his plate, as pointed out. He is very family oriented. He came from a big family. If anything, he was worried about his family and the Horcrux hunt and not accomplishing anything. I think right before the scene when he left, they found out about Snape being the headmaster of the school, so of course his worries probably went to Ginny's well being.

That if he knew what little information Harry had, he would not have wanted to join him?).

I doubt it.

And then, with the enormous task on their hands of finding horcruxes, thinking that Harry & Hermione were sneaking round romantically behind his back?

Right before that scene, weren't Harry and Hermione carrying on with one another and ignoring Ron (unintentionally)?

The locket horcrux only intensified the fears that were already there--so all of this was stuff that was playing around in Ron's head to some degree. And I do find it a bit immature. And because he had these slightly hostile/insecure/immature feelings, the horcrux was able to feed off him more than with Harry and Hermione, who did not have so much going on inside of them.

See, in that regard, I don't particularly find that as immature, but human (not counting the Harry/Hermione stuff). He was worried about his family. His father and brother worked in the Ministry, his sister was at school with Dumbledore's murderer and Voldemort supporter, his family members are considered blood traitors, and every single solitary one of them were in constant danger of being killed. That was weighing on his mind too. Hermione didn't have to worry too much about anything (even though it was sad that she wiped her parents' memories away, but JKR wrote Hermione as being detached from her folks as early as book 2) and Harry didn't have anything for the locket to truly feed off of. Ron had the most.

The thing with Harry and Hermione, imo, was just Ron feeling sorry for himself. He did the same thing with Viktor. Seriously, though, what would Hermione see in him, when she could have someone better like Harry or Viktor, was probably what constantly played in his mind.

I agree with you though, that Ron did need to go away and ultimately mature, more for Hermione's sake so that they could be together, more than for Harry's sake--because as best friends, Harry and Ron would be able to eventually forgive each other. With Hermione, as a romantic interest, things may have never worked out for them if Ron stayed as immature as he was.

He didn't have to for Harry, mostly for Hermione, but aside from that, I figured early in the story that JKR would have to separate them at some point of the story, and out of the three, Ron was the most logical to use. He's native to the Wizarding World. Harry and Hermione are the foreigners.

And I hope it doesn't sound like I'm Ron bashing. I like Ron very much.

Nah. I just can't view the argument in GoF as being all Ron's fault when, to me, Harry was at fault too. Harry had never been questioned by Ron before and had to learn to be more open (like how Ron is with him). For his lesson, he should've learned that he can't expect to always be blindly followed. Ron had to get over his jealousy issues.

[PotterGurl08]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

Because the evidence was stacked up against Harry this time, for Ron to question it in the first place. Harry stated that if he ever put his name in, he'd do it when no one was around. Ron asked Harry why anyone would put in his name, Harry didn't give a straight answer in fear of sounding overly "dramatic". When Harry entered the room, he looked as if he'd been celebrating his victory of being a Champion. Usually, Harry always meet up with Ron or Hermione to share stuff with them that he wouldn't anyone else. Ron had every right to question Harry. All Ron wanted was an honest answer, and Harry didn't give it which shows that Harry didn't trust Ron enough to tell him anything.

IMO, the fight wouldn't have even lasted as long as it had if Harry had shared what Dumbledore had said in the first place because if Ron would've thought he was lying even after that, then that'd be highly out of character for Ron.

But Hermione didn't see what Ron did. Like I said, when Harry entered the dormitory, he looked as if he'd been celebrating his victory. What other assumption would you make from that? Why would JKR write that to begin with if she didn't want Ron to have reasonable doubts?

You also have to consider that Ron did not attend the celebration that was happening in the Gryffindor common room. So he doesn't really know for sure that Harry had been celebrating. Sure, Harry came into their dorm with party decorations on him, but I can't imagine he actually looked happy and pleased about it. When Harry got to the common room, he was looking for Ron, so that he could tell him what happened, wasn't he?
But Ron was already so upset and jealous at this point, he didn't even bother to wait for Harry in the common room to hear first hand what really happened. He was up in the dorm, sulking already. So to me, Ron is a bit more at fault. If Ron had been there to hear from Harry, maybe Harry would have been more willing to tell Ron exactly what happened. But when he finally found Ron, up in the room--he noticed right away that something was off about Ron's mood. And I think this is what made Harry reluctant to say what was going on for fear of being dramatic. He didn't want to seem "dramatic" as he was there, trying to figure out what was wrong with Ron.
At least that's how I see it. I see what you mean about Harry needing to go ahead and explain anything. But I think this was a very character-developing moment. Ron's jealousy, and Harry's hurt pride at not having his best friend believe him, just on principle of being a best friend (and the fact that he never lied to him before).

As for Harry looking guilty from commenting on how he would have entered his name when no one was around--I guess on one hand it is reason to give Ron doubt. But based on 3 years of previous friendship with Harry and how Harry never kept secrets from Ron, I still don't think it was right of Ron to assume Harry would have kept something from him this time.

I think JKR wrote it like this to showcase Ron's jealousy issues (which Hermione further explained), and foreshadowing what would happen in DH.

I don't think it would have, since Ron kept asking questions, no temper flare up. In the text, the only one getting short-patient was Harry. Ron didn't seem to "lash out" until Harry called him stupid. Ron was giving him plenty of opportunity to properly explain himself.

Now I disagree with that because, to me, Ron was phishing for an explanation. A logical one. Harry never once tried to explain himself.

Spoiler: show

GoF, pp 181-182

To his great relief, he found Ron was lying on his bed in the otherwise empty dormitory, still fully dressed. He looked up when Harry slammed the door behind him.

“Where’ve you been?” Harry said.

“Oh hello,” said Ron.

He was grinning, but it was a very odd, strained sort of grin. Harry suddenly became aware that he was still wearing the scarlet Gryffindor banner that Lee had tied around him. He hastened to take it off, but it was knotted very tightly. Ron lay on the bed without moving, watching Harry struggle to remove it.

“So,” he said, when Harry had finally removed the banner and thrown it into a corner. “Congratulations.”

“What d’you mean, congratulations?” said Harry, staring at Ron. There was definitely something wrong with the way Ron was smiling: It was more like a grimace.

“Well… no one else got across the Age Line,” said Ron. “Not even Fred and George. What did you use - the Invisibility Cloak?”

“The Invisibility Cloak wouldn’t have got me over that line,” said Harry slowly.

“Oh right,” said Ron. “I thought you might’ve told me if it was the cloak… because it would’ve covered both of us, wouldn’t it? But you found another way, did you?”

“Listen,” said Harry, “I didn’t put my name in that goblet. Someone else must’ve done it.”

Ron raised his eyebrows.

“What would they do that for?”

“I dunno,” said Harry. He felt it would sound very melodramatic to say, “To kill me.”

Ron’s eyebrows rose so high that they were in danger of disappearing into his hair.

“It’s okay, you know, you can tell me the truth,” he said. “If you don’t want everyone else to know, fine, but I don’t know why you’re bothering to lie, you didn’t get into trouble for it, did you? That friend of the Fat Lady’s, that Violet, she’s already told us all Dumbledore’s letting you enter. A thousand Galleons prize money, eh? And you don’t have to do end-of-year tests either…”

“I didn’t put my name in that goblet!” said Harry, starting to feel angry.

“Yeah, okay,” said Ron, in exactly the same skeptical tone as Cedric. “Only you said this morning you’d have done it last night, and no one would’ve seen you… I’m not stupid, you know.”

“You’re doing a really good impression of it,” Harry snapped.

“Yeah?” said Ron, and there was no trace of a grin, forced or otherwise, on his face now. “You want to get to bed, Harry. I expect you’ll need to be up early tomorrow for a photo-call or something.”

He wrenched the hangings shut around his four-poster, leaving Harry standing there by the door, staring at the dark red velvet curtains, now hiding one of the few people he had been sure would believe him.

IMO, Ron was really trying to get a reasonable explanation or a theory or something, but Harry never did. Ron didn't get "mad" until Harry said that Ron was stupid (even though Ron brought it on himself, technically).

Again, I see all of this as Ron already being in a foul mood. It's like he had already made up his mind--was already angry, before even waiting to hear an explanation from Harry. And from Harry's POV--maybe he was thinking that if Ron is already mad before even hearing any explanation, what good would an explanation do? This of course, also speaks to Harry's stubborness. I imagine Harry basically feeling like, "If you are already mad and don't believe me, then forget it, I'm not telling you what really happened."
Just speculation, of course. But that's how I read the scene.

Well, Mrs. Weasley did seem to dote on him way more than Ron (understandable), and the impression I get is that even without Harry around, he was overlooked a lot.

Quite right. It's understandable that Mrs. Weasley would dote on Harry. She saw Harry as this poor kid with no family--and what family he did have mistreated him.
And with Ron being from a family of 7 kids, he probably did get overlooked. Fred & George had each other; Bill, Charlie, and Percy were the oldest, and Ginny was the only girl.
Despite all of this, Mrs. Weasley did indeed love Ron just as much as her other children. It is just Ron, being in an awkward position in the family due to birth order, and being young (maturity level), who was convinced that because he wasn't doted over, he wasn't loved as much. Something I'm sure Ron came to realize wasn't true once he grew up and matured some more. So for this, I still see Ron's maturity during this time being an issue. But it was probably natural for him to have this problem.

He expected that he would've given him more information. Black and white to me, with that explanation. Also, both Ron and Hermione had discussed it amongst themselves anyway about that.

Interesting you mentioned this.
I was just watching DH yesterday. In the movie, it shows Ron and Hermione talking amongst themselves (and we hear that it's about Harry not having info on what to do). I wonder if this is just the movie's interpretation though? In the book, I know Harry suspected Ron & Hermione were talking about him not knowing what he was doing behind his back, but he never directly catches them in a conversation about it. It's just what he suspects. This made me wonder if this was the 'fear' the horcrux was intensifying for him? Making him paranoid that Ron & Hermione were losing faith in him whenever he saw them together, just as Ron was getting paranoid about Harry & Hermione being romantically involved when he saw them together?

Ok...I'm getting off topic. Sorry, lol.

Also, Ron had a lot on his plate, as pointed out. He is very family oriented. He came from a big family. If anything, he was worried about his family and the Horcrux hunt and not accomplishing anything. I think right before the scene when he left, they found out about Snape being the headmaster of the school, so of course his worries probably went to Ginny's well being.

[/font]I doubt it. Right before that scene, weren't Harry and Hermione carrying on with one another and ignoring Ron (unintentionally)? See, in that regard, I don't particularly find that as immature, but human (not counting the Harry/Hermione stuff). He was worried about his family. His father and brother worked in the Ministry, his sister was at school with Dumbledore's murderer and Voldemort supporter, his family members are considered blood traitors, and every single solitary one of them were in constant danger of being killed. That was weighing on his mind too. Hermione didn't have to worry too much about anything (even though it was sad that she wiped her parents' memories away, but JKR wrote Hermione as being detached from her folks as early as book 2) and Harry didn't have anything for the locket to truly feed off of. Ron had the most.

Yes, I know Ron was worried about his family. But he should have known that Harry was too--the Weasleys had become his family as well over those 7 years. And Ron knows that Harry loves Ginny. It's natural for Ron to be worried--but somewhere inside, he must have thought Harry wasn't as worried, and the horcrux fed off of this until it had him convinced that Harry didn't care, since he had no real family. And again, it is because Ron is harboring some somewhat negative feelings that the horcrux is just able to sink its teeth in and really twist Ron's rage into something unacceptable.

The thing with Harry and Hermione, imo, was just Ron feeling sorry for himself. He did the same thing with Viktor. Seriously, though, what would Hermione see in him, when she could have someone better like Harry or Viktor, was probably what constantly played in his mind.

He didn't have to for Harry, mostly for Hermione, but aside from that, I figured early in the story that JKR would have to separate them at some point of the story, and out of the three, Ron was the most logical to use. He's native to the Wizarding World. Harry and Hermione are the foreigners.Nah. I just can't view the argument in GoF as being all Ron's fault when, to me, Harry was at fault too. Harry had never been questioned by Ron before and had to learn to be more open (like how Ron is with him). For his lesson, he should've learned that he can't expect to always be blindly followed. Ron had to get over his jealousy issues.

I agree. Ron does feel sorry for himself. And he needed to grow up and mature some, and stop thinking that people like Harry and Viktor were better than him. Ron had self-esteem issues, and I feel that his maturing was one of the main things that helped him get over it.

As for JKR having to split the trio--I think it had to be Ron because it was more in his character (as she foreshadowed in GOF).
That, and that Hermione just could not leave. They would have died without Hermione, lol. Voldemort would have taken over and that would be the end.

[GingerCat1]

Originally Posted by PotterGurl08

I agree. Ron does feel sorry for himself. And he needed to grow up and mature some, and stop thinking that people like Harry and Viktor were better than him. Ron had self-esteem issues, and I feel that his maturing was one of the main things that helped him get over it.

It isn't surprising that Ron has some serious self-esteem issues given what we know of his life. We find out some of those issues in the first chapter Ron is in, how he feels like he will be seen as just another Weasley and anything special he does will be no big deal because his brothers did it first. Hagrid even accidentally confirmed Ron's fears in PS/SS when he saw Ron and the first thing he said was "another Weasley" or something to that effect.

So right off the bat Ron didn't feel good enough and when he began to develop feelings for Hermione i think when he looked at her and saw this beautiful and incredible intelligent girl who could have any guy she wanted and due to Ron's self esteem issues he instantly thought that he wouldn't be good enough, that a girl as great as Hermione would never want someone like him.

These feelings of not being good enough would only have gotten worse when it looked like all his family (including his mother) as well as Hermione and Harry didn't think he was good enough or deserved the prefects badge. I think Hermione's reaction would have stung the most as she automatically assumed it would go to Harry. To Ron it would have been confirmation that Hermione didn't think he was good enough.

Then of course there is the scene in HBP where Hermione spends a good deal of time telling Harry how great he is and how why girls want him while completely ignoring Ron who was practically begging Hermione to say nice things about him, to tell him that he is someone that could be wanted. Instead what he got was a Hermione ignoring him completely.

Given these events it is not surprising that the locket found something to feed on when Ron was wearing it as deep down he thought that his family didn't think he was good enough and worse of all he thought that Hermione didn't think he was good enough. Ron had a lot more in his head to feed off that either Harry or Hermione so it isn't surprising that the locket affected Ron a lot worse than it did the other two as both Harry and Hermione were generally far more confident with who they were and their value.

[littledeadybear]

All thing's considered, this discussion should have been named the following:

"Ron or Hermione?: Immature male vs. Capable female

I accept that you don't relate with Ron. You're roughly his same age, and you feel more mature in your actions toward your own. Understandable. But attempting to place your values of friendship on another who is not emotionally capable of handling those standards is a shallow view point. And that's exactly what your article amounts to: a shallow comparison between deeds of people who have a gaping difference in terms of maturation, capabilities, and needs.

Hermione is incredibly mature for her age, and we find this out by the first book when we find out how responsible she is for herself. She read her text books before coming to school! I can't ever get past the first two chapters before my attention drifts. She takes responsibility for the troll that invades the bathroom she hid out in. And she only sky rockets from there; it takes great possession of self to admit your wrongs, and to commit yourself to things so thoroughly.

Hermione has different needs for friendship. Why should she feel jealous of Harry? She's smarter than him. Many times, she's shown her brilliance, and that's enough for her. This is proven in the sixth book when she starts becoming quite at odds with Harry after it appears he's besting her in potions. She's already accepted upon meeting the two that Ron and Harry are boy-buddies til the end, so why should she start off that Harry spends more time with Ron?

In short, there's reasons why Hermione is more capable of a friend than Ron is, and it has nothing to do with their emotional ties to Harry. She is freed of certain obstacles in her way of thinking. She's not over-shadowed by Harry, at least not in the way she feels that counts. (Which is why Ron is never jealous of Hermione--she doesn't exactly warrant the type of attention he wants.) She doesn't have to worry that Harry is spending more time with Ron than her, and she has the intelligence and emotional I.Q. to provide more help in situations than poor Ron is capable of. In fact, the only thing Hermione fails to best Ron at (and do note, they come at equals for this one), is depth of character. Ron is every bit as much of a character is as Hermione, and his sacrifices are just as strong as sacrifices for Harry in his own mind.

[l8n_1988]

In my opinion, the editorial does make interesting points on the relationship between Ron/Harry and Hermione/Harry. However, like others have so often pointed out, it is clearly biased against Ron.

I still find however, I tend to agree with the article: not on it's level of argumentation of Ron and Hermione's friendship; but on a more instinctual, guttural level. Having just re-read the books and being a lot older than I was the last time I read them, Hermione does seem to me to be, perhaps not the better friend, but certainly as good a friend as Ron. But Harry does not often recognise this. And it is a shame.

Two's company and three's a crowd: Hermione is very often the one left on the edge. And she accepts this too, which is incredibly frustrating!

[AnHibou]

Although I disagree with the 'tally chart' style of determining friendship- since friendship is something identified in emotions by both parties, sometimes represented (but not classified) by actions-, I do feel there is some weight in looking at how they act towards one another.
For example, many people have justified Ron's actions by showing us traits of his personality. Although his fear that he will lose Hermione to Harry in DH does not make him a bad friend, his inability to put the benefit of everyone (whether the friendship group or the wizarding world at large) before his own qualms could reduce his worth as an ally. This doesn't make him worth less as a friend, necessarily, but everyone- Harry and Hermione included!- has to put their own personal quarrels aside for the greater good, and Ron often seems to struggle with this. That doesn't make him less worth as a person, of course; you can't penalise an individual for not emulating the characteristics of others around them (would you criticise Luna for not being rational, as Ravenclaws are supposed to be? Or would you embrace her ability to look at the alternative with open-mindedness, despite any evidence to the contrary?); but it must be taken into consideration.
It seems to me that many people are willing to leap to Ron's defence- and rightly so- without considering other factors. You can say "oh, but he's jealous and irrational" all you like, but that doesn't necessarily justify purposefully hurting your closest friends to satisfy yourself. Friendship is often about putting aside personal qualms to help others, and we don't see Ron do this an awful lot.
Still, he's a valuable friend, and I suppose he comes through in the end.

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by AnHibou

You can say "oh, but he's jealous and irrational" all you like, but that doesn't necessarily justify purposefully hurting your closest friends to satisfy yourself. Friendship is often about putting aside personal qualms to help others, and we don't see Ron do this an awful lot.
Still, he's a valuable friend, and I suppose he comes through in the end.

Which Ron's character had done from the first time he met Harry. He usually sacrificed a lot for his friends, his family being the biggest one, imo (he pretty much shared his family with Harry and Hermione, and in DH being away from them was weighing a lot on him since he was so close to his family). That aside, I wouldn't call it "justifying", I call it understanding the actions of the character in question. Wrong is still wrong, but you can still understand why a character acted in such a way.

Harry and Hermione are also guilty of "purposely hurting" their closest friends too, but seems only Ron is demonized for that (being human or having weak moments). I think that's why more people defend Ron compared to Harry or Hermione. Those two seem to be on a pedestal.

[Verena]

I think Ron. Harry chose him from the beginning and then:

“But this was a downright lie. Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as Ron. There was much hess laughter and a lot more hanging around in the library when Hermione was your best friend.” (Harry Potter and the Globet of Fire – chapter 19 The hungarian horntail)

"What?" Ron bellowed furiously. "Four? You lousy, biased scum-bag, you gave Krum ten!" But Harry didn't care, he wouldn't have cared if Karkaroff had given him zero; Ron's indignation on his behalf was worth about a hundred points to him.” (Harry Potter and the Globet of Fire – chapter 20 The first task)

“He couldn't believe how happy he felt; he had Ron back on his side, he'd gotten through the first task, and he wouldn't have to face the second one for three months.” (Harry Potter and the Globet of Fire – chapter 21 The house-helf liberation front)

“Nothing but the shock of hearing that voice could have given Harry the strength to get up” (Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – chapter 19 The Silver Doe)

“Harry could not answer. The silver doe was nothing, nothing compared with Ron’s reappearance: he could not believe it. Shuddering with cold, he caught up the pile of clothes still lying at the water’s edge and began to pull them on. As he dragged sweater after sweater over his head, Harry stared at Ron, half expecting him to have disappeared every time he lost sight of him, and yet he had to be real: He had just dived into the pool; he had saved Harry’s life.” (Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – chapter 19 The Silver Doe)

[kitana415]

The relationship between Ron and Harry is not simply a friendship, but more like a brotherhood. Harry, having always yearned for love and acceptance, is eager to overlook Ron's less appealing characteristics earlier in the series. Ron, having so many brothers and no friends outside of the family, starts Hogwarts not knowing any other relationship to have. The ease of this budding friendship is simple equation.

Harry's desire for closeness
+ Ron's wealth of information regarding the wizarding world
= Best Friends Forever

Harry knows nothing about this magical world (after all, it is through his eyes that we all experienced it for the first time). Ron, having been raised with not much monetarily (and the bad habit of comparing himself to everyone) meets a boy with loads of money, but no information. Ron clearly has the upper hand and probably feels better about himself each time he explains something to Harry-which I can imagine must have been frequently their first year. By the time Harry matures, they are like brothers- forgiving one another when you're acting like gits is exactly what you do.

Harry loves Hermione like a sister. His character simply could not put up with an insufferable know-it-all otherwise. Now Hermione is the smartest witch of her age, and for good reason. Here come these 2 boys (who previously put her down, but that can be overlooked) that selflessly risk their lives save her from the big bad troll. I imagine that in her mind, in retrospect, her smarts were worth zilch at that moment. She froze up and it almost cost her her life. Yet these brave boys, for whatever reason (love or simply feeling guilty if she died) came to the rescue. You can't get more 'knight in shining armor' than that. Hermione knows she's not dazzling anyone socially, ergo the trio is formed. Oh, I'm sure there were times she regretted her decision ('boys') but they then she has learned to love them (albeit differently).

How can we, therefore, try to gauge the value of one friend from the other?

Quite simply, Harry could not have defeated Voldemort without either of them. He would not have even been able to figure out what was being kept in the 3rd floor corridor (at least, not in time) let alone get to the Stone without them (Ron's masterful chess game and Hermione's knowledge of both magical plants and ease with riddles). The entire series is simply a story about how 3 friends, together, grew up and saved the world. Sure, Harry was the 'Chosen One' but without Ron and Hermione he would have died ages ago. In my honest opinion, he would have died in his first year by being thrown off his broom at the hand of Quirrell. If Ron and Harry had not saved Hermione to being with there would not have even been a friendship that led to Harry being saved.
These references are examples of instances which goes the way to solidifying their relationship to each other and are not being used to count up the value of each relationship individually. There is no 'plus' or 'minus', just moments when you realize they can't exist without each other.

[HRW]

I think people need to put themselves into Ron's shoes when they talk about him leaving. His feelings are something neither Hermione nor Harry can relate to. Harry is the chosen one and Hermione is the intelligent one. Everyone knows them and both of them get plenty of plaudits as it is but it must be hard not to be recognised for what you've done. I don't think either either of them quite realised what he was going through. Sure Hermione did explain part of his problems to Harry in GoF but there were many times throughout the series she unknowingly shot down the little self esteem he actually had. And he did not just leave because he thought Harry and Hermione would like each other, he also thought they did not need him and that he was worthless. The fact that he actually came back with all this going inside his head shows what a true friend he was to Harry.

I personally think Ron was a better friend to both Harry and Hermione than they were to him. I don't either of them properly understood him at all. Maybe bits of him but not the interior behind the fun loving exterior.

Might be a bit off-topic but I'd like to go into the reasons for Ron's actions in the Deathly Hallows.

1. The fact that almost the very first thing he says to Harry in the books is about living upto his brothers tells me his insecurities are quite deep rooted even as a 11 year old before even becoming friends with Harry.

2. I'd also think he was at a natural disadvantage being born between the twins and Ginny. I'd imagine being the only girl in the family for ages must have grabbed Ginny a lot of attention and the twins going by their adult selves must've been a real handful as well. I don't think it's wrong to think that even while growing up (from about 5 onwards) he must've been yearning for his mother's attention.

3. Then of course he goes on and becomes best friends with Harry Potter so now he is known as another Weasley or the best friend of the chosen one. That can't have been easy.

4. Harry then starts to spend more time at the burrow and seeing his mothers affection towards him (something which he himself yearned for) must have been tough. Of course Molly probably did what she did because she thought of Harry's upbringing.

5. So when we come to the GoF he finally snaps a little. I think he probably knows that he's wrong and that Harry wouldn't do that but he can't help himself.

6. Then to that terrible Yule Ball Gown he got while Harry got the good ones. Not exactly Moll's fault but still it wouldn't make Ron feel any better.

7. Ron then falls for brightest girl in Hogwarts and to his horror she is going to the ball with another famous guy in Krum. Now I am sure Hermione would have said yes to Ron had asked before Krum (quite sure she actually loved him by this point) but that's not the way Ron's mind thinks. This probably makes his life even more miserable.

8. The prefects badge fiasco. If he already wasn't feeling miserable by this point this would've done trick. Not one member of his family thought he deserved it and it didn't even occur to Hermione that he could've got the badge. Her happiness initially at Harry becoming prefect and patrolling with him probably didn't go unnoticed.

9. Hermione herself didn't help much in making him feel any better. Infact when she was angry or annoyed at him she could be really vicious with her words. And I always thought she was her natural self with Harry who she only saw as a friend (or brother) where as with Ron she was a bit indifferent at times (probably trying to hide her feelings).

10. Another thing that struck me was that Ron was very open with his praise and admiration for both of them, on the other hand the only time Hermione is that open is when Ron opens the chamber in Deathly Hallows moments before the kiss.

11. Then the whole Lavender thing where Ron was at fault as well. That said her words about going out with good quidditch players hit him hard. What she said was in anger of course but as I indicated before she does become unknowingly vicious when she's angry.

12. When he used the phrase 'Always the tone of surprise' he didn't use it in a teasing way rather he said it in a 'grumpy' manner. According to him she didn't think he was good enough to become a prefect, not a good flyer and not even a good dueler now. Add all that to the fact he thinks he thinks he is competing with Victor Krum and Harry Potter and that he is filthily poor.


All that added up over one's life is more than enough to make anyone snap and it still took the horcrux to complete the job. Ron is no saint and nor am I saying he was right to walk off. Just saying it's more than understandable why he would do it.

[cool_chick_div]

HRW displyed it perfectly. I initially was mad a t Ron for his attitude to Harry in Goblet of Fire and Deathly Hallows but he certainly had a lot of insecurities that were fed. I really felt bad for him in Order of the Phoenix and Half Blood Prince. Half Blood Prince is actually where I felt Hermione's flaws were crystal clear. I love Ron mostly because he overcame his insecurities and did not snap in Order of the Phoenix. A lot of people, if they were in his shoes would have snapped a lot more than him. He's strong to be able to get over it. I feel his character can be compared to Petunia and how her jealousy toward her sister drove a wedge between them. Ron did not let that happen. He never really held anything towards Ginny. It is mainly in Deathly Hallows Ron's insecurity with Ginny is raised.

I'm not saying Ron was right but I found it understandable and sometimes it is nice for someone to say they understand rather than criticizing or putting you down.

[ShadowSonic]

I side with Ron as the truer friend. Because he came off as a real human being throughout the series whereas I never quite got the same from Hermione. So I can forgive Ron for his moments of human fallibility.

And I try to imagine things if we weren't seeing it all from Harry's POV, which also makes it easier to forgive Ron's actions since the lack of POV makes Harry look less sympathetic.

[HRW]

I hadn't read the original editorial when I made my post and I must say that editorial comes across as very biased and seems to compare Ron's faults with Hermione's strengths which makes no sense.

Both Ron and Hermione are equally important to Harry and there was no way he could have done everything he did without both their support. Ron has plenty of moments across the series but his biggest contribution to Harry is his emotional support and cannot be underestimated. Harry would not have survived seven years of doing nothing but studying in the library (although I don't think he would've been friends with Hermione if not for Ron).

One points the editorial makes is that Hermione understands Harry better and I'd disagree with that. This might be partly true when it comes to when it comes his girl issues but other than Ron gets Harry in the way Hermione doesn't seem to. Ron does not disagree with Harry very often and more often than not goes along with his instincts but even when he does disagree he does not keep on nagging Harry (like Hermione tends to do) because he realises Harry does not like that.

In some ways both Hermione and Ron have been better friends to Harry than he has been to them through the books but I am sure after the war Harry will even that up. That said I am quite uncomfortable with measuring friendship. Harry will not try to think who was more 'useful' to him in his head. Both are his best friends and I am sure that's how it will remain.

[ShadowSonic]

I do agree with that, I do think that Ron and Hermione were better friends to Harry than Harry was to either of them. My opinion, of course.