House elves: Their obligation and their relationships with wizards

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I'm not sure. Hermione, at one point, says that obeying their masters' orders is the house elves highest law. That phrasing, in my opinion, seems to say that they are held in servitude not by something the wizards have done, but by the very essence of their species. I, personally, am of the mind that house-elves have always been bound to wizards, and wizards never found their slavery disturbing for that reason.

I agree. That phrasing is very specific. If it were wizards who were forcibly binding house-elves into servitude then the correct phrasing would be "a wizard's highest law for house-elves". The phrase "a house-elf's highest law" is indicative that these laws were created by house-elves.

There are enchantments involved - Dobby and Dumbledore both mention the "enchantments of their kind". However, there are also examples of house-elves being able to work around those enchantments to do things that are important to them even without permission or orders from their masters. Dobby was able to leave Malfoy Manor on several occasions to warn Harry - both of which he did not have permission or orders to do. Winky was able to stop Crouch Jr. from going to the Death Eaters by using her magic to bind him to her and drag him away from the tent - without permission or orders to do so. Kreacher was able to leave Grimmauld Place and conspire against Sirius with "Miss Cissy" and "Miss Bella". The house-elves at Hogwarts were able to refuse to do one of their assigned duties - cleaning Gryffindor tower - in protest of Hermione's attempt to trick them.

Looking at the whole picture, it does appear that it was the house-elves who designed the system with their own internal structure for rules and restrictions enforced by some kind of enchantment they created.

Originally Posted by sholeigh

OK, so perhaps thinking about the old legends is the answer. There are old stories of elves or brownies doing housework at night in homes where the family is kind. The people are expected to leave out milk or food every evening for the elf but if they try to creep down in the night to catch them, or if they tried to pay the elf with money, the creature would be so offended that they leave forever. This reminds me of presenting a house elf with clothes to free them, a kind of payment. In a way the house elves are living in a symbiosis with wizards because the elves do receive food and a place to live from their masters. Perhaps it is in their nature to help people. But I can't believe that slavery was ever part of the deal. I do think the elves have been trapped into their slavery by wizards.

It is very consistent with the folklore about brownies - particularly the aspect that presenting them with clothes or other type of "payment" for their services is offensive and they will leave the house. Another similarity is that the house-elves are bound to the house rather than the family. If the family sells the house - or they die out and the house passes into the hands of another family - the house-elf goes along with the house. That does create a symbiotic relationship - two species living in the same location and helping each other in a mutually beneficial arrangement. The house-elves have a place to live, food, people to take care of - wizards have loyal servants they know they can depend on for anything. Even if that's just someone to keep them company when they are alone - i.e. Hepzibah Smith. Hermione viewed it as slavery because the house-elves did not get paid in addition to receiving room and board. Dobby referred to it as slavery because of how he was abused by the Malfoys. But what we see with all the other house-elves is more in line with two cultures living in symbiosis.

What stands out for me is that a symbiotic relationship between house-elves and wizards would not be a trap under normal circumstances - especially with the indication that it was the house-elves who designed the system and the enchantment to enforce it. There is a flaw in the system in that it allows people like Lucius Malfoy to abuse house-elves by exploiting their nature to serve and the laws they hold themselves too, but I think that is something that could be rectified without disrupting the symbiotic relationship between house-elves and wizards.

Originally Posted by willfitz

That theory would make sense. The real question is whether, even by magic, sentience is creatable. It does make me think, though, that if wizards are able to transfigure living animals from inanimate object, and then perform imperius animals to make them do their bidding, it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to have wizards force their transfigured creatures to speak English, cook and clean and do anything they want. Perhaps that is the origin of house-elves. Obviously, it would have to be a vastly upgraded version of the Imperius curse.

I would have to disagree. I can't see wizards using the Imperius curse in that manner. It's one thing for Harry to use something like that as a last resort to protect his friends or McGonagall to use it when they are on the verge of the final battle in the war - war often results in people being forced to do things they would never do otherwise. Under normal circumstances, the Imperius curse is regarded as "unforgivable".

In regards to where house-elves came from, it seems unlikely that wizards would be able to use transfiguration to create an entirely new species from an inanimate object. We see them transfigure inanimate objects into existing species and vice versa, but not creating something from nothing. If they cannot create food from nothing, logically, they cannot create a new species from nothing.

If the house-elves were created, it would be more likely that they were bred from other existing species - i.e. Hagrid breeding fire crabs and manticores to create the new breed he called "Blast Ended Skrewts". And that would still raise the questions of which species were bred to create house-elves - and whether that occurred naturally or was engineered by wizards.

I doubt that myself. As you mentioned before, the specific phrasing of "a house-elf's highest law" is indicative that the enchantments binding them were created by house-elves rather than wizards. In addition, most folklore regarding fairies, elves, or other kinds of magical creatures typically presents such magical being as living on earth before humans - often with the human's advancement being why these magical beings went into hiding. I think a symbiotic relationship between house-elves and wizards makes more sense with what we're shown in the text.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I agree. That phrasing is very specific. If it were wizards who were forcibly binding house-elves into servitude then the correct phrasing would be "a wizard's highest law for house-elves". The phrase "a house-elf's highest law" is indicative that these laws were created by house-elves.

Certainly my inclination as well.

There are enchantments involved - Dobby and Dumbledore both mention the "enchantments of their kind". However, there are also examples of house-elves being able to work around those enchantments to do things that are important to them even without permission or orders from their masters. Dobby was able to leave Malfoy Manor on several occasions to warn Harry - both of which he did not have permission or orders to do. Winky was able to stop Crouch Jr. from going to the Death Eaters by using her magic to bind him to her and drag him away from the tent - without permission or orders to do so.

It would seem that house-elves are able to do things that they haven't necessarily been ordered to do, but not doing something they have been ordered to do seems to be a completely different matter. As far as I can tell, elves usually punish themselves when they do something of which their master would disapprove, as we see with Winky and Dobby, but this does not seem to be magically enforced, as we can see with Kreacher, who couldn't care less how his master feels about him. That said, if a master expressly forbids an elf to do something, they are magically bound to it; this is evident with the confidence that the Order of the Phoenix has in Kreacher's obligation to stay at Grimmauld Place.

As you brought it up, it is my feeling that the elves got around this by, instead of refusing to do the work, simply deferring it to another member of the staff, that being Dobby. This would not be a violation as long as the orders were given to the staff as a whole, not to each elf.

What stands out for me is that a symbiotic relationship between house-elves and wizards would not be a trap under normal circumstances - especially with the indication that it was the house-elves who designed the system and the enchantment to enforce it. There is a flaw in the system in that it allows people like Lucius Malfoy to abuse house-elves by exploiting their nature to serve and the laws they hold themselves too, but I think that is something that could be rectified without disrupting the symbiotic relationship between house-elves and wizards.

I was thinking along these exact lines a few days ago, but couldn't really put it into words quite as well. The system wasn't slavery until wizards designed to abuse it, which means it is not that different than many incidents in human RL history. As an example, the history of Aboriginal people in Canada springs to mind, whereby they made seemingly mutually beneficial agreements with the Europeans, and before you know it, they were confined to regions within the country with no rights.

I would have to disagree. I can't see wizards using the Imperius curse in that manner. It's one thing for Harry to use something like that as a last resort to protect his friends or McGonagall to use it when they are on the verge of the final battle in the war - war often results in people being forced to do things they would never do otherwise. Under normal circumstances, the Imperius curse is regarded as "unforgivable".

I should have been more clear on this. Imperius was an example to show that the magic, perhaps, would not be so out of reach. On an aside, the Imperius Curse is unforgivable at this time, but we have know idea a) if it existed at the origin of the elves, or b) if it was considered unforgivable; it was a different time completely, and we have no idea how different.

Really, what I meant to say is that though it seems unlikely, it might(!) be possible.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by willfitz

It would seem that house-elves are able to do things that they haven't necessarily been ordered to do, but not doing something they have been ordered to do seems to be a completely different matter. As far as I can tell, elves usually punish themselves when they do something of which their master would disapprove, as we see with Winky and Dobby, but this does not seem to be magically enforced, as we can see with Kreacher, who couldn't care less how his master feels about him. That said, if a master expressly forbids an elf to do something, they are magically bound to it; this is evident with the confidence that the Order of the Phoenix has in Winky's obligation to stay at Grimmauld Place.

Winky was never at Grimmauld Place - are you referring to Kreacher?

Dobby was the only house-elf who was ever shown to be required to punish himself for disobeying. That was part of his orders from the Malfoys - they even "reminded" him to do extra punishments at times. Winky never had to punish herself from what we are shown. Harry thought her odd behavior at the World Cup was because she didn't have permission to leave the tent, but he found out later that the reason she was moving so oddly was because she had bound Crouch Jr. - who was hidden by an Invisibility cloak - to her and he was trying to get to the Death Eaters while she was dragging him away. Kreacher and the house-elves at Hogwarts were never shown to punish themselves like that all all.

Dobby was forbidden to leave Malfoy Manor without permission, but he is able to do so by punishing himself. Winky was given a direct order to stay in the tent, but was able to disobey that order without punishing herself. Mr. Crouch freed her, but Winky didn't have to hit herself in the head or burn herself or anything like that. Kreacher was given direct orders not talk about the people Sirius cared about, but he continually mutters about them - even when Harry orders him more specifically about those insults, Kreacher still says them - he just does so quietly so he can't be heard. Kreacher was also given orders not to take the things they were trying to throw away - Sirius kept having to take things back from Kreacher that he tried to "rescue" from the garbage. Sirius believed that Kreacher could not leave Grimmauld Place without permission, but Harry pointed out that he was wrong about that because Dobby had been able to leave Malfoy Manor without permission.

However, there are restrictions due to the enchantment. Dobby was able to work around them to warn Harry, but he could not give Harry specific information - i.e. Master Lucius is going to give Arthur Wheezy's daughter a diary that will possess her. Dobby was only able to give general information - i.e. there is a plot to make terrible things happen. Kreacher was not able to tell Narcissa and Bellatrix specific information about the Order, but he was able to give them general information that enabled them to set a trap for Harry using Sirius. But the house-elves were able to work around such restrictions - not completely, but enough to accomplish what they wanted to do.

As you brought it up, it is my feeling that the elves got around this by, instead of refusing to do the work, simply deferring it to another member of the staff, that being Dobby. This would not be a violation as long as the orders were given to the staff as a whole, not to each elf.

I think that would depend on the assignments. Dobby refers to house-elves refusing to clean Gryffindor tower in the pleural and it is logical that the duty was assigned to several elves because that was quite a big job. 14 dormitories, the common room, bathrooms, corridors/stairwells - approximately 200 students to clean up after. I think that duty would have been assigned to more than one house-elf. Dobby could cover for one house-elf, but that wouldn't excuse the others if the duty required a certain number of house-elves to perform it. That may have been assigned to specific elves or just a general assignment like "10 elves to Gryffindor - 10 to Slytherin - 3 to the Great Hall - 15 to the laundry - and so on.

Likewise, they may have organized assignments by groups - red team to clean Gryffindor, orange team to the laundry, etc... It appeared that all of them worked in the kitchen together - that may have been the case for all duties as well, but it seems more likely that they were divided up into smaller groups for things like cleaning the school houses. In any case, I can't see only one house-elf being assigned to clean Gryffindor tower so the house-elves refusing to do their assigned duty there without having to punish themselves for disobeying is significant, IMO.

I was thinking along these exact lines a few days ago, but couldn't really put it into words quite as well. The system wasn't slavery until wizards designed to abuse it, which means it is not that different than many incidents in human RL history. As an example, the history of Aboriginal people in Canada springs to mind, whereby they made seemingly mutually beneficial agreements with the Europeans, and before you know it, they were confined to regions within the country with no rights.

I agree - though I would not generalize it as slavery for all house-elves because we still see more of a symbiotic relationship with Winky and the Crouch family, Kreacher with Regulus - and probably Walpurga, Hokey and Hepzibah, and the house-elves at Hogwarts. However, Dobby was exploited and abused by the Malfoys so I would say he was made into a slave - though he was still able to work around it and take advantage of the opportunity to free himself.

I should have been more clear on this. Imperius was an example to show that the magic, perhaps, would not be so out of reach. On an aside, the Imperius Curse is unforgivable at this time, but we have know idea a) if it existed at the origin of the elves, or b) if it was considered unforgivable; it was a different time completely, and we have no idea how different.

Really, what I meant to say is that though it seems unlikely, it might(!) be possible.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think something like the Imperius curse would be plausible because the house-elves do demonstrate free will - disobeying orders, leaving their homes without permission, refusing to do assigned duties, etc... Under the Imperius curse - or something that worked along those lines - it would not be possible for the house-elves to disobey at all because everything they did would be controlled by the spell. The spell could weaken or wear off - as it did with Crouch Jr. in GOF - but that would be inconsistent with what we're shown in the books regarding house-elves.

I reread what Dobby said to Harry in COS and GOF and realized I was mistaken - he never used the term enchantment regarding his enslavement. He always referred to it as enslavement. Dumbledore was the one who referred to it as "enchantments of his kind" when discussing Kreacher. I'm not entirely certain there was any type of spell involved now, but rather the house-elves own sense of duty and honor.

For example, in COS, Dobby would typically freeze or make odd noises and/or immediately start to punish himself if Harry asked him a question that would require him to betray the Malfoys' secrets to answer. However, when Dobby visited Harry in the hospital wing, he slipped up and mentioned that the Chamber of Secrets had been opened once more - after which he was horrified and started beating himself over the head. But there doesn't anything that stopped him from accidentally betraying one of his master's secrets apart from his own sense of duty and honor. He didn't like the Malfoys and he wanted to be free of them, but he still felt honor-bound to comply with their orders and not reveal their secrets. If he was under some kind of enchantment that would prevent him from revealing his master's secrets, then he would not have been able to mention the Chamber of Secrets at all.

We also see this with Kreacher in DH after Harry had given him a direct order not to call Hermione a mudblood. Kreacher slipped up and called her a mudblood afterward - again, there does not appear to be any type of spell preventing him from disobeying an order. Even Kreacher seems to feel honor bound to comply even with the two masters he did not want to serve - Sirius and Harry.

Either way, I think the origin was the house-elves themselves rather than wizards.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Winky was never at Grimmauld Place - are you referring to Kreacher?

Yes, sorry about that, I'll edit.

Dobby was the only house-elf who was ever shown to be required to punish himself for disobeying. That was part of his orders from the Malfoys - they even "reminded" him to do extra punishments at times....

...Dobby was forbidden to leave Malfoy Manor without permission, but he is able to do so by punishing himself.

Hmmm... Are you sure that Dobby was definitively ordered not to leave, or did he not just say that if his masters knew about him being there, they would punish him? If it was the latter, then it would make sense to me: Dobby must punish himself if he is doing anything against the wishes of his masters, and he knew that they would not approve of his being in Harry's room.

I still don't know how a house-elf could violate a direct order, as I'm pretty sure that Kreacher needed Sirius to say "get out" in order for him to leave, and also because "their masters' orders are a house-elf's highest law." As for all the muttering, if indeed he was ordered not to, I think that he might not realize what he is saying out loud.

In the Winky incident, I am pretty sure that there were circumstances which made violating orders possible. Namely, if I remember correctly, Winky had other instructions regarding Barty Jr., and also perhaps Barty Jr. had given him orders, and perhaps two or more of her instructions were mutually exclusive, hence the obvious internal conflict as she staggered around.

I think that would depend on the assignments. Dobby refers to house-elves refusing to clean Gryffindor tower in the pleural and it is logical that the duty was assigned to several elves because that was quite a big job. 14 dormitories, the common room, bathrooms, corridors/stairwells - approximately 200 students to clean up after. I think that duty would have been assigned to more than one house-elf.

Even if 14 elves were given the task collectively to clean the dormitory, as long as the work got done by any number of those elves, they technically would not be violating orders.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think something like the Imperius curse would be plausible because the house-elves do demonstrate free will - disobeying orders, leaving their homes without permission, refusing to do assigned duties, etc... Under the Imperius curse - or something that worked along those lines - it would not be possible for the house-elves to disobey at all because everything they did would be controlled by the spell. The spell could weaken or wear off - as it did with Crouch Jr. in GOF - but that would be inconsistent with what we're shown in the books regarding house-elves.

Right, so perhaps there is some sort of permanent spell somewhat similar which permanently programs a creature to respond to certain stimuli certain way. At least Imperius provides us with an example of a spell which can control others' actions.

For example, in COS, Dobby would typically freeze or make odd noises and/or immediately start to punish himself if Harry asked him a question that would require him to betray the Malfoys' secrets to answer. However, when Dobby visited Harry in the hospital wing, he slipped up and mentioned that the Chamber of Secrets had been opened once more - after which he was horrified and started beating himself over the head. But there doesn't [appear to be] anything that stopped him from accidentally betraying one of his master's secrets apart from his own sense of duty and honor. He didn't like the Malfoys and he wanted to be free of them, but he still felt honor-bound to comply with their orders and not reveal their secrets. If he was under some kind of enchantment that would prevent him from revealing his master's secrets, then he would not have been able to mention the Chamber of Secrets at all.

So, perhaps Malfoy forbade him to speak of certain things, and the rest of what he mentioned was not a direct order, but was simply things which he knew his master would not want him speaking about, hence the punishment. I still think that house-elves are magically obliged to follow orders, and I don't think it has anything to do with honour, much as they may think.

We also see this with Kreacher in DH after Harry had given him a direct order not to call Hermione a mudblood. Kreacher slipped up and called her a mudblood afterward - again, there does not appear to be any type of spell preventing him from disobeying an order. Even Kreacher seems to feel honor bound to comply even with the two masters he did not want to serve - Sirius and Harry.

Really? Nothing personal, but could you provide a quote, just to be absolutely clear?

Either way, I think the origin was the house-elves themselves rather than wizards.

I wouldn't disagree. It does seem likely that it was some kind of mutual agreement to let hous-elves do what they are very good at and live where they are comfortable, and wizards got their menial labour done for them. The nice, naive house-elves might have just not forseen their own potential vulnerability.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yes, sorry about that, I'll edit. Speaking of editing, you left the rest of my quote on your post, appearing as your own post.

I hit submit instead of preview. I fixed it so I'll wait till you have a chance to read the whole thing.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I hit submit instead of preview. I fixed it so I'll wait till you have a chance to read the whole thing.

OK, I see.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Hmmm... Are you sure that Dobby was definitively ordered not to leave, or did he not just say that if his masters knew about him being there, they would punish him? If it was the latter, then it would make sense to me: Dobby must punish himself if he is doing anything against the wishes of his masters, and he knew that they would not approve of his being in Harry's room.

Dobby does have to punish himself if he does anything that goes against his master's wishes. But, in order to know what that would be, he would have to have to have some way of knowing what those wishes are. So Dobby would have orders in that regard. He tells Harry that he will have to punish himself for leaving the house and implies that, if they ever found out he went to see Harry, they would punish him as well.

I still don't know how a house-elf could violate a direct order, as I'm pretty sure that Kreacher needed Sirius to say "get out" in order for him to leave, and also because "their masters' orders are a house-elf's highest law." As for all the muttering, if indeed he was ordered not to, I think that he might not realize what he is saying out loud.

That was the general assumption because Sirius did say "get out" - but he had done that before as well. Sirius was always ordering Dobby to leave the room because of how he was muttering insults at everybody and trying to take things from the garbage.

Harry specifically ordered Kreacher not to call anyone mudblood or blood traitor in DH. Kreacher continued to mouth the insults anyway - he did not verbalize them, but his lips were moving to form the words. Sirius ordered him not to say such things many times, but he continued to do so. I think what he does with Harry - mouthing the words to call people those names anyway - shows that he did know what he was saying. Kreacher was old and he had issues because he felt guilty about not being able to destroy the locket, but he knew what he was saying and he knew they could hear him all those times he acted as though he thought they could not.

I agree that Kreacher is taking advantage of loopholes - just as Dobby did. But there were ways for them to disobey even a direct order. Mouthing the words instead of saying them outright was a defiance - he's still calling people those names, just not out loud. Dobby used the fact that the Malfoys required him to punish himself - i.e. pointing to the diary, to Lucius, and then punching himself in the head. A standing order for a house-elf is not to reveal their master's secrets, but Dobby was able to let Harry know that Lucius had given Ginny the diary by doing that. But seeing as how both Dobby and Kreacher were able to accidentally say something they were not allowed to, I don't think there was any spell that prevented them from disobeying - just their own code of honor.

In the Winky incident, I am pretty sure that there were circumstances which made violating orders possible. Namely, if I remember correctly, Winky had other instructions regarding Barty Jr., and also perhaps Barty Jr. had given him orders, and perhaps two or more of her instructions were mutually exclusive, hence the obvious internal conflict as she staggered around.

Well, Mr. Crouch said that he had specifically ordered Winky not to leave the tent. And Crouch Jr. was also her master - being part of the Crouch family - so she would have been bound to follow his orders as well. But she is able to ignore what he wants and use her magic to bind him to her and drag him away from the Death Eaters in spite of the direct order to stay in the tent from Mr. Crouch and Crouch Jr. wanting her to let him go.

Harry was wrong in his assumption that Winky was moving oddly because she was disobeying orders. This is what they saw -

GOF A rustling noise nearby made all three of them jump. Winky the house-elf was fighting her way out of a clump of bushes nearby. She was moving in a most peculiar fashion, apparently with great difficulty; it was as though someone invisible were trying to hold her back.

There was someone invisible trying to hold her back - Crouch Jr. Winky was moving oddly because she was dragging Crouch Jr. - she had bound him to her using her magic. Crouch Jr. was trying to get to the Death Eaters - Winky was pulling him in the opposite direction. He was a lot bigger than her so it was obvious that something was pulling her back as she tried to move forward. Harry found out in the end that it was Crouch Jr. pulling her back when Dumbledore gave him Veritaserum and interrogated him.

GOF My father had left the tent; he had gone to free the Muggles. Winky was afraid to see me so angry. She used her own brand of magic to bind me to her. She pulled me from the tent, pulled me into the forest, away from the Death Eaters. I tried to hold her back. I wanted to return to the campsite. I wanted to show those Death Eaters what loyalty to the Dark Lord meant, and to punish them for their lack of it. I used the stolen wand to cast the Dark Mark into the sky.

Even if 14 elves were given the task collectively to clean the dormitory, as long as the work got done by any number of those elves, they technically would not be violating orders.

I think that would depend on the order - or assignment. For example, if they were assigned to teams and those 14 house-elves were on the team assigned to clean Gryffindor tower, then the 13 members of that team who did not would be disobeying. If they had an organizational chart listing who would be cleaning which area of the castle each day - that would be disobeying because their name would be listed.

The Malfoys required Dobby to punish himself for any infraction - no matter how slight or even if there had been a specific order given or if it was simply a standing order - i.e. keep your master's secrets. Leaving the house - he did things like ironing his hands or shutting his ears in the oven door. Speaking ill of his masters - he typically grabbed something and started hitting himself in the head with it. Burning their dinner - Lucius flogged him personally for that. Revealing his master's secrets - punching himself in the head.

So I don't think it was necessary for the order to be specific because failing to do their duty was also considered to be disobeying by the house-elves. If a certain number was supposed to do the job and only one did the job, then the others would be disobeying by failing to do their duty. Winky is another example - she did no work at Hogwarts at all and the house-elves are clearly disgusted with her because she just sits by the fire getting drunk on butterbeer. But she was not required to punish herself for not doing her job.

Right, so perhaps there is some sort of permanent spell somewhat similar which permanently programs a creature to respond to certain stimuli certain way. At least Imperius provides us with an example of a spell which can control others' actions.

So, perhaps Malfoy forbade him to speak of certain things, and the rest of what he mentioned was not a direct order, but was simply things which he knew his master would not want him speaking about, hence the punishment. I still think that house-elves are magically obliged to follow orders, and I don't think it has anything to do with honour, much as they may think.

Really? Nothing personal, but could you provide a quote, just to be absolutely clear?

I can always provide a quote - you only need to ask if I forget to include it. No offense taken - I always ask for a quote if I don't remember the example.

DH “The Mudblood touched Kreacher, he will not allow it, what would his Mistress say?” “I told you not to call her ‘Mudblood’!” snarled Harry, but the elf was already punishing himself: He fell to the ground and banged his forehead on the floor.

This was fairly soon after Harry had given Kreacher the direct order not to call anyone mudblood or blood traitor. At first, Kreacher continued to mouth the words - as I mentioned above. Here, Hermione was so overcome by what Kreacher had been through, she forgot his revulsion to her and tried to hug him - upsetting him terribly and he said "mudblood" out loud. Disobeying a direct order. Nothing about the magical bond or "enchantments of their kind" prevents them from disobeying from what we're shown. It appears they do that on their own because of their own code of honor. But, just as Hagrid occasionally slipped up and said things he shouldn't accidentally, house-elves can as well. That indicates that there was no spell controlling their actions.

The odd thing with Kreacher is that, while Sirius owned him, he never had to punish himself when he disobeyed like that. But when Harry owns him, he does punish himself at least once and tries to at least once with Harry stopping him - I don't recall him punishing himself in HBP, but I'll have to go back and look to be sure. So I think the enchantments or perhaps the magical bond allows the house-elves to instinctively know what their master expects, would not like, forbids, etc... - allowing them to more easily honor the house-elves highest law. Because of Dobby, Harry assumed that all house-elves had to punish themselves for disobeying. So when Kreacher passed into his ownership, he fully expected Kreacher to punish himself like Dobby had done when he disobeyed - just as he assumed Winky's odd movement was due to her disobeying. That would be an example of Harry incorrectly interpreting things he observed. From what we see with Dobby and Kreacher, it does not appear that there is any kind of spell or enchantment to specifically prevent them from disobeying.

Dobby tells Harry in GOF that a house-elf is forbidden to speak ill of their master or reveal their master's secrets - those would be standing direct orders for all elves from how Dobby explained it. In fact, Dumbledore specifically addressed that when he told Dobby that he did not hold house-elves to that so he and Winky could call him a "barmy old codger" if they wanted to. Dobby is no longer magically bound to the Malfoys in GOF - and had not been for two years - but it was still difficult for him to speak his mind about the Malfoys because their punishments and how they expected him to punish himself had been so extreme. He wasn't being prevented from saying things against them or revealing their secrets magically, but he had stopped himself from doing that and punished himself any time he slipped up for so long, it was automatic for him to react that way without thinking about it. He can freely say "Lucius Malfoy is a bad, Dark Wizard", but his instinct is to punish himself when he does because that was what he had been required to do for so long. He knows they are not his masters anymore and knows he can say whatever he likes - he's just not used to doing it yet. Winky never even tried - as far as she was concerned, Mr. Crouch was still her master and she refused to tell anyone what his secrets were. She wasn't being forced to do that by a spell, but rather her own sense of duty and honor compelled her to be loyal to him.

I wouldn't disagree. It does seem likely that it was some kind of mutual agreement to let hous-elves do what they are very good at and live where they are comfortable, and wizards got their menial labour done for them. The nice, naive house-elves might have just not forseen their own potential vulnerability.

I'd say they were all naive at the time because I don't think anyone would have foreseen the potential problems of that. Under normal circumstances that is a mutually beneficial arrangement and most wizards appear to treat house-elves very well. It likely did not occur to them that a certain kind of person would attempt to exploit and abuse these creatures because it was their nature to serve others. Just as it never occurred to the other three founders that Salazar Slytherin would build a secret chamber in the school and hide a monster in it and it never occurred to James, Lily, and Sirius that Pettigrew would betray their trust. That's not something people would consider until something bad actually happens and is known about. Most people would think to themselves "that will never happen" and continue as planned. It is only in hindsight that we can identify such mistakes.

Any contract evolves over time because the world changes and people change along with it. In the time frame of the story, house-elves would have entered into that arrangement around the year 900 - a time when there were fewer people in the world and muggles persecuting witches and wizards was their biggest concern. At that time, they wouldn't have been thinking of ways to exploit house-elves because they were busy hiding themselves - separating the wizarding world from the muggle world, the founders building Hogwarts far away from muggles, certain places being magically hidden so muggles would not know they were there, etc...

Jo addressed that in an interview - she referred to the wizarding world as a whole as an "oppressed group". They isolated themselves as a means of protection, but they did not band together - which is, unfortunately, how it typically happens with oppressed groups like this. The need to hide themselves did not bring them together, it created divisions and they formed a rather loathsome pecking order among themselves. At the time, it all seemed to work very well - and it probably did back then because things were different. But as the world changed and people evolved with it, things deteriorated. People like Lucius Malfoy came to view themselves as the "elite" - not just among wizards, but among all creatures. Years of being insulated by wealth and political affluence as well as prejudicial beliefs being passed down through the family result in people like this coming to feel they can get away with anything because they are "superior". Lucius Malfoy's ancestors were probably a lot nicer than he was because things were different back then. There was a distrust of muggles because witches and wizards had been persecuted, but not the extreme prejudice that existed in the 1990's where Death Eaters like Lucius believed muggles deserved to be tortured and/or killed.

So I can see where they would not have foreseen the potential problems in the year 900. They were focused on hiding the magical community - which would be even more imperative for magical creatures like the house-elves who cannot blend into the muggle world like witches and wizards can. Goblins, house-elves, Centaurs, merpeople - they have no choice but to find places within the wizarding world where they can stay and not be seen by muggles at all. It was definitely time to reevaluate the contract and make adjustments to fit with how times had changed, but I think the basic purpose of the agreement was still mutually beneficial.

[willfitz]

Well, those quotes regarding elves being able to directly disobey orders sort of shakes my understanding of how the elves are held in check. I suppose that it does have more to do with honour and pride in their jobs and their positions than I was giving credit for. Still, all of the examples of breaking orders seem to be unintentional "slip-ups" by the elf, rather than actually striving to disobey. That would explain why the Order were able to trust Kreacher to disobey.

So would you say that elves punish themselves because it is part of the agreement, or because they feel like if they didn't it would give their masters justification to punish them instead, or disgrace them?

[mexicant]

*pops in for just a tic*

I think it has a lot to do with honor. All of the house elves we have seen take pride in what they do, and in serving those they feel are worth serving. Even Dobby feels this way, if not for the Malfoy family.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mexicant

*pops in for just a tic*

I think it has a lot to do with honor. All of the house elves we have seen take pride in what they do, and in serving those they feel are worth serving. Even Dobby feels this way, if not for the Malfoy family.

Kreacher doesn't seem to take any pride in what he does until he is brought on board by Harry. He goes out of the way to accomplish his tasks as poorly as possible, and he makes himself an absolute nuisance. In my opinion, something other than honour must be binding him to his position.

[mexicant]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Kreacher doesn't seem to take any pride in what he does until he is brought on board by Harry. He goes out of the way to accomplish his tasks as poorly as possible, and he makes himself an absolute nuisance. In my opinion, something other than honour must be binding him to his position.

But at that point in time, he didn't believe in Harry being his rightful master. I think it must be tied in somehow. When Sirius was blasted from the Black family tapestry, it is possible that Kreacher took that as meaning that he was no longer fit to be his master. Of course, I'm speculating with this, but every house elf we see dutifully serves their master, regardless of their feelings for said master. Honor doesn't have to mean that they do their best. It could be more of following principles.

Again, I'm just speculating, but I do think that honor for what they do and pride in their work once they agree they should be doing it is part of what makes them who they are, and is outside of any sort of compulsion or obligation to wizards.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mexicant

But at that point in time, he didn't believe in Harry being his rightful master. I think it must be tied in somehow. When Sirius was blasted from the Black family tapestry, it is possible that Kreacher took that as meaning that he was no longer fit to be his master. Of course, I'm speculating with this, but every house elf we see dutifully serves their master, regardless of their feelings for said master. Honor doesn't have to mean that they do their best. It could be more of following principles.

Again, I'm just speculating, but I do think that honor for what they do and pride in their work once they agree they should be doing it is part of what makes them who they are, and is outside of any sort of compulsion or obligation to wizards.

Well, I think that is a great theory, and would explain his attitude, but he still feels compelled to follow Sirius' orders, which would indicate that he at least acknowledges that Sirius is, actually, his master, even if he didn't like it.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, those quotes regarding elves being able to directly disobey orders sort of shakes my understanding of how the elves are held in check. I suppose that it does have more to do with honour and pride in their jobs and their positions than I was giving credit for. Still, all of the examples of breaking orders seem to be unintentional "slip-ups" by the elf, rather than actually striving to disobey. That would explain why the Order were able to trust Kreacher to disobey.

So would you say that elves punish themselves because it is part of the agreement, or because they feel like if they didn't it would give their masters justification to punish them instead, or disgrace them?

My point with the examples of unintentional slip ups was that there was nothing that prevented them from disobeying except their own code of honor. If house-elves were being controlled by a spell, then it would have been impossible for Dobby to mention the Chamber of Secrets to Harry or for Kreacher to call Hermione a mudblood after Harry forbid him to call anyone a mudblood. They are able to do such things - even accidentally - because there is no spell controlling them. They control themselves by choice.

As for punishment, I think that comes back to their code of honor as well. Dobby is really the only house-elf who was actaully required by his masters to punish himself. Kreacher did that - or tried to - a few times after Harry became his master, but it would appear that was because Harry assumed all house-elves had to do that. The house-elf's highest law is to do their master's bidding. If that is to punish themselves for disobeying, then it is a matter of honor for them to comply. Since this primarily effects Dobby, I think he probably found punishing himself easier to deal with than Lucius flogging him personally.

Kreacher doesn't seem to take any pride in what he does until he is brought on board by Harry. He goes out of the way to accomplish his tasks as poorly as possible, and he makes himself an absolute nuisance. In my opinion, something other than honour must be binding him to his position.

Kreacher had other issues that he was dealing with. He had great affection for Regulus and grieved for his death - knowing that Regulus sacrificed himself to save him only added to Kreacher's grief. He felt guilty because he had failed to comply with the last order Regulus gave him - to destroy the locket. He felt guilty because Mundungus had stolen the locket and he couldn't stop him from doing so.

Kreacher felt honor bound to serve the Black family - for him that was Walpurga's portrait, Narcissa, and Bellatrix. He didn't want Sirius to be his master and felt no loyalty to him at all. But he is still a house-elf and the house-elf's highest law is to do their master's bidding. Kreacher did that to the minimum in regards to serving Sirius, but he couldn't bring himself to completely disregard their highest law. Regardless of what he felt about Sirius, he was still a house-elf and his code of honor would prevent him from disobeying entirely. In addition, I don't think Narcissa and Bellatrix told Kreacher everything about the plan they enlisted his help for. Kreacher knew that they needed him to do - create a diversion for Sirius and make harry think that Sirius had gone to the DoM if Harry made contact. I don't think Kreacher knew anything beyond that - though I do think he was hoping that it would end up with Sirius being killed so he could serve "Miss Bella" instead. Black family tradition would have resulted in Bellatrix inheriting Grimmauld Place - and Kreacher along with it - if Sirius had not intervened and left everything to Harry in his will.

Once Kreacher passed to Harry, he was very angry because he wanted to go to Bellatrix instead. But he is still a house-elf and his code of honor would hold him to the house-elves' highest law. Harry was his master even if he didn't like it. And we do have an example of Kreacher intentionally disobeying the standing order that house-elves cannot speak ill of their masters. When Harry summoned Kreacher to the hospital wing in HBP, both Kreacher and Dobby show up because they were fighting. They were fighting because Kreacher had insulted Harry and Dobby took offense to that. When Dobby said that Kreacher could not insult Harry, Kreacher responds that he'll say whatever he wants about Harry.

I think the key to understanding Kreacher is the fact that he wanted Bellatrix to be his mistress rather than Sirius or Harry being his master in OOTP and HBP. Bellatrix is a member of the Black family - though not a direct descendent in Sirius' line and could not countermand Sirius' orders to Kreacher. But she could give orders to Kreacher of her own and Kreacher would likely know what Bellatrix expected of him. Kreacher had to be careful in how he disobeyed because he didn't want Bellatrix to see him as a "bad" house-elf - he wanted her to become his mistress. He could get away with acting out against Sirius and Harry to some extent and Bellatrix would still consider him a good house-elf. But - from his perspective - he would still need to follow the house-elf's highest law so Bellatrix would want him to serve her. I think Kreacher's code of honor kept him in line because he was thinking about how he could be Bellatrix's house-elf once Sirius was gone.

That changes in DH when Harry finds out what happened to Kreacher. Kreacher completely changes his mind about Harry after that. It's not just that Harry was nice to him. Harry was also going to help him complete the last order that Regulus had given him - destroying the locket. And Harry gave him the locket that Regulus had used for the switch - and that was the icing on the cake for Kreacher. He would have done anything for Harry then because Harry had proven himself to be worthy by showing respect for Regulus, promising to help Kreacher fulfill his last duty to Regulus, and giving him Regulus' locket to keep for his own.

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Kreacher doesn't seem to take any pride in what he does until he is brought on board by Harry....

Kreacher disliked and resented Sirius and he didn't like Harry at first but he was devoted to old Mrs. Black and especially to Regulus. He was proud to serve them I'm sure he served them very well (look at his devotion to Regulus), and I think he was later proud in serving Harry, the Trio, and later still Harry's family.

The fact that he let his personal grooming go downhill when he was unhappy with his master says a lot. Once Harry got his trust, he started taking care of his own appearance again, as well as resuming his household duties as butler /cook / janitor / general household help.

[gertiekeddle]

Yet besides all changes in personality houseelves are certainly cabable of, willfitz still has a point that there must be more than pride and honour, what makes house-elves forced to serve their masters - including that the rules which transfer the rulership are called 'old magic'. Otherwise Kreacher neither had served Sirius nor Harry. On the other hand Dobby shows the how far the borders of this bound can be stretched when he acts against his masters, but still isn't able to leave them without being freed.

I could see that there was a symbiosis like Meesha described but it seems to have been misused by wizards long since. They're not shown as beings with feelings anymore by quite a few wizards it seems (Diggory doesn't bother to talk to Winky be her name either). The misuse alone, if there was one, doesn't seem to help us to detect the rules of the bound though.

I agree a home is a strong magic for its own (although not as much in Potterverse as in many other fantasy or ancient literature eg), but judging from the fear Dumbledore had that Kreacher perhaps could have been belonged to Bellatrix despite all measures Sirius took, I think the family bound must be the strongest rule per se. It's possible to overcome it by wizarding magic it seems, but the first bound seems to be something not created by wizards to me.

[sholeigh]

Originally Posted by gertiekeddle

Yet besides all changes in personality houseelves are certainly cabable of, willfitz still has a point that there must be more than pride and honour, what makes house-elves forced to serve their masters - including that the rules which transfer the rulership are called 'old magic'. Otherwise Kreacher neither had served Sirius nor Harry. On the other hand Dobby shows the how far the borders of this bound can be stretched when he acts against his masters, but still isn't able to leave them without being freed.

I agree that something besides their own nature has trapped the house elves into their servitude, because even though the elves may be able to get around the orders they're given, they cannot leave their masters permanently unless they are freed by that master.

I think that an interesting thread of investigation would be how house elves react when there is more than one member of their family alive to give orders. Is Dobby ever present in the novels while both Draco and Lucius are in the room? And also, when Harry was staying at Grimmauld Place in OotP, he may already have been named in Sirius' will as the Black heir. It would be worth checking the chapters during Christmas at Grimmauld Place for references to Kreacher and how he reacts to Harry. This might give us clues to how this enchantment was designed, whether the family name or the building they occupy is more important to the house elf's loyalty/obedience.

[Mimosa]

Originally Posted by sholeigh

I think that an interesting thread of investigation would be how house elves react when there is more than one member of their family alive to give orders. Is Dobby ever present in the novels while both Draco and Lucius are in the room?

I'm sorry, but I don't see what difference that would make? In the case Lucius and Draco would give conflicting orders, which is possible, Dobby would probably ask which order to obey, or go by seniority in the household and obey Lucius. For example, if Lucius told Dobby "Go fetch Master Draco's green coat" and Draco said "No, I want the purple one", Dobby would probably ask "Master Lucius, which one should I fetch?" - or bring both of them and let father and son fight it out. It wouldn't affect his obedience to an order. At least that's how I see it.

Another question comes to me, though, regarding the Elf's attachment to a particular house or manor. What happens if the family falls into hard times and has to sell that house? I'm sure the Slytherins were rich and powerful enough to have Elves, but the fortune got dilapidated, and their descendants, the Gaunts, ended up living in a hovel. What happened to the Elves who belonged to the Slytherins? For that matter, the Potters, too, seem to have been very rich (considering the amount of gold in their Gringotts vault) and must surely have had Elves at one time. What happened to those Elves when Harry's grandparents died, and especially after James and Lily moved to that little cottage in Godric's Hollow to hide from Voldemort?

[FleurduJardin]

Originally Posted by Mimosa

Another question comes to me, though, regarding the Elf's attachment to a particular house or manor. What happens if the family falls into hard times and has to sell that house? I'm sure the Slytherins were rich and powerful enough to have Elves, but the fortune got dilapidated, and their descendants, the Gaunts, ended up living in a hovel. What happened to the Elves who belonged to the Slytherins? For that matter, the Potters, too, seem to have been very rich (considering the amount of gold in their Gringotts vault) and must surely have had Elves at one time. What happened to those Elves when Harry's grandparents died, and especially after James and Lily moved to that little cottage in Godric's Hollow to hide from Voldemort?

An intriguing question. I'm sure the situation has happened. I don't see families like the Four Founders and the rich families like the Potters or the Diggorys - or the Ministers' and high Ministry officials' families - as not having Elves in their service. If we surmise that the Founders' Elves went to work at Hogwarts if their families lose their homes like the Slytherins seem to have, but what about the others, like the elder Potters?

We already determined that their are no Elf markets or Elf auctions, so how does an Elf change houses? Can they been given away, on "loan" on short term (like Regulus did with Kreacher when he told him to obey Voldemort) or on a permanent basis? Maybe in a will, like Sirius did when he gave Kreacher to Harry? Or do the Elves go on serving whoever buys the bankrupted wizarding family's house?

[silver ink pot]

I posted this quote on the SPEW thread, so I'll post it here as well. This is what JKR said recently when she was in the U.S. for the White House Easter Egg Hunt:

Link

JKR: Would I rather have Dobby or Winky be my house elf? I definitely don't want a house elf. I think they are a little bit creepy. Although they would be useful, in a way, when I've got housework to do, I think I would find it exceptionally creepy to have a house elf so I would rather they were all free. So if a house elf was in my house I would immediately give it clothes and say "Have fun. Go".

[Nandi]

J.K. has changed her mind more then once about something so i won't take it too seriously.Besides creepy is not the word that comes to my mind when i think of house-elves