Why Hermione Was Right (3/16/08)

[blaqlives]

Discussion of The Burrow article Why Hermione Was Right by Robbie Fischer.

[inkling7]

The wand could also be used for good too though. Did we see Albus use it for evil power-hungry uses all the time? No. Both could have good and bad uses so both could be OK. We don't know that Hermione couldn't use it to spy (females can be sneaky sometimes too) or that Ron would would use the wand for casting bad spells ( Ron had a big heart too). I'd say neither was absolutely right. then there's Harry and the stone - and that's another matter altogether - but it doesn't make him wrong too....

This article reminded me of of someone (was it Sirius?) who says things are things are neither black or white - good or bad - but there are shades of grey and things can be in between (only he used the good wizards and Death Eaters analogy). I think nobody was absolutely right or wrong but they were all in between in various ways. There now I've done it - I bet I've opened up a can of worms here.

[piklpodlistener]

I was sort of surprised how Harry and Ron picked the choices they did, after the sort of moral of the story of how you should pick the cloak.

I do agree with Inkling

[Chas]

Thanks for the article, Robbie. You make good points.

I agree that the cloak was the Hallow to choose. Its original purpose in the tale was to hide from Death, but it allows a lot more hiding--as you point out. It holds great power, even if it is not always appreciated. Its power is not a power that dominates, and that is critical. For a hint of how the cloak can be used for evil, recall how Harry cast spells from inside it. In the wrong hands, it's the vehicle for a perfect crime. It was passed down the Peverell family and it remained in pristine condition. It is the Hallow that was meant to endure.

The wand has great power, for good or ill, but its ultimate power comes from causing the death of someone else, and then the wand chooses a new wizard. (Hence, the name "Death Stick.") The wand cannot be shared like the cloak. Interestingly, Harry only used the Elder Wand once, even though he was its master, and that was to repair his original wand. He appreciated its power and its fatal flaw.

You point out, Robbie, the stone is painful to the dead because it disturbs their rest--or whatever they are doing. OTOH, its use in the tale and with Dumbledore are for selfish reasons and it does not satisfy. With Harry, it seems very different. (He describes it as going his going to the dead rather than their coming to him.) And Harry's use of it ends with the profoundly symbolic gesture of dropping it and losing it in the Forbidden Forest so that it is symbolically and actually lost forever.

Harry turns out to be a "master of death," and all three Hallows are rightfully his. But when that happens he has grown up enough to recognize that no one should have all three forever, just as no one can avoid death forever.

All that said, I don't think it's a question of Hermione being "right." The tale and Harry show the value of all three Hallows. They all have their role. But it is only in an extraordinary moment that they are all three meant to be together. The cloak, however, seems meant to last and to be used. It would be my choice too.

[hpboy13]

Believe it or not, inkling7, I actually agree! (What is the world coming to?). I won't say much because a lot of this is in my editorial which will hopefully be posted soon, since I wrote about pretty much the same thing only less favoring one choice. What I will say is this: yes, the Cloak is the best Hallow to choose. However, none of them are totally good or bad. And there's something else here. Hermione makes the "right" choice partly because she listens to the moral of the story. Harry and Ron are not big on listening to other people, so they make the "wrong" choice.

[inkling7]

Gosh what is the world coming to? We've more or less agreed on two things now. I might have chosen the cloak but if I thought I could do more with the wand (including making myself invisible) I might have chosen the wand - especially if I could end wars, poverty and all the nasty things about this world. As for the stone - well I would like to catch up with my real other who died of cancer when I was only about 6 years old.

[The_Old_One]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Gosh what is the world coming to? We've more or less agreed on two things now. I might have chosen the cloak but if I thought I could do more with the wand (including making myself invisible) I might have chosen the wand - especially if I could end wars, poverty and all the nasty things about this world. As for the stone - well I would like to catch up with my real other who died of cancer when I was only about 6 years old.

Yes, I too understand the longing for what the Stone can bring.. Robbie said it well, and so did you, Inkling, and others too ... the Stone provides the means to achieve a longing, a need... to fill an emptiness.. but it is wrong to do so. Yet, as the story unfolds, we see that the Stone may be used for the right reasons. But who is to know whether the reasons are right until one has experienced the wrong, the bad, the painful, the unthinkable. And then, after all that, who knows whether all those experiences lead to understanding and wisdom, or bitterness and vindictiveness. I have railed at the "unfairness" of it all, knowing that life's not fair, I have lamented the time lost with my father and blamed God for "stealing" it from me, realizing only later, after sober second thought and the awakening of understanding (I won't say wisdom, for my part), that blame is not assignable. I finally understood that the time lost was my own doing, that it was not God's early "taking" of my father, but my procrastination, until it was too late. So perhaps my motivation for the following is easier understood knowing these things.

I think that it really isn't a matter of the "right" choice or the "wrong". I think that the choice depends on the circumstances and the reasons for the choice, which will vary for each Hallow and for each situation. Where I think the issue REALLY lies, what is even more significant, is what you do AFTER the choice is made. Let's take a look at the most recent users of the three Hallows

Dumbledore wanted to use the Stone to bring back his parents and Ariana to apologize, to tell them he loved them - a poignant and noble sentiment. But wrong, because he should not be bringing them back to him at all -they no longer "belonged" here. In essence, Dunmbledore did NOT possess that Hallow. It possessed him. Harry went a different route when he finally possessed the Stone. He used it to provide himself with the support he needed to make the journey to his own death, and he knew that it was right. Yes, he dropped and lost the Stone after, and expressed no intention or retrieving it, because his one "right" use was done, and it could never be used "right" again.

Dumbledore was permitted to tame the Wand because he used it right - not just that he didn't kill with it when he could help it, but he (to quote Ron) "kept his trap shut". Nobody KNEW he had the Wand. But now, Harry possessed that powerful Hallow. But notice! He actually did not use it. He understood (with help from AD) that being Master of that Hallow didn't require him to use it at all! The fact that he was the Master meant that it couldn't be used against HIM.

But remember, he didn't choose the Wand in the first place. Ron did, and I think at least partially for the reasons Robbie pointed out. But was it the wrong choice? He chose it I think not only or specifically because he felt the need to give HIM any edge, but for the reasons that became obvious later - to defeat Voldemort. So his intentions were good, but then the question "what do you do with it AFTER you take possesion of the Hallow" must be answered, and I think he had no answer, because after using it, how DO you let it go. Even if you wanted to, you would be forced to use it because others, with much less pure hearts, would seek you out and challenge you. Very few could "keep their trap shut", and fewer still (if any) could, like Harry, at the end, realize that the point was not to use it at all, just to possess it.

And as for the Cloak, well, THAT was the one Hallow that seemed least consequential of all, especially to proud and powerful wizards. Its true significance was that, as Dumbledore said, it could be used to shield others besides the owner. Notice that Dumbledore, Grindelwald and Voldemort all thought of their OWN abilities, that they could conceal THEMSELVES. The TRUE Master of that Hallow, Harry, thought of others. Yes, over the course of Harry's ordeals, he became more and more alone, but when it counted, when the danger was greatest, he thought NOT of protecting just himself with his Cloak. He insisted that Ron and Hermione join him and not worry about anything being seen. He insisted they ALL be safe. And so too with Luna when they went to see the bust of Ravenclaw, and especially after their encounter with the Carrows. The Cloak was his, but he offered its protection to others, to those without the good fortune to have such protection of their own.

This WAS the Hallow to chose, not because it was the best of the Three Hallows, but because it is the only one that you could safely USE and not be corrupted by it. Hermione chose it because she saw the moral in the Tale, true, but given what their motivations were, Harry and Ron did not choose the "wrong" Hallows when they picked Stone and Wand. They chose the Hallow they did for understandable, but "wrong" ENDS. The one to bring back his lost loved ones, the other to give him the power to defeat evil. And once Harry, the True Master of ALL the Hallows attained that status, he discerned the proper circumstances for EACH Hallow to be the "right" choice.

So, to my mind, there is no "wrong" Hallow at all and therefore they ALL chose the right one. It is the use and, more importantly the aftermath of that use (or non-use) that may be right or wrong.

Sorry for the length, but it is an interesting concept and needed to be worked through. Thanks once again, Robbie, for a thought-provoking editorial!

M.

[inkling7]

I'm sorry you lost your father but get the impression that you were older than I was and wanted to spend more time with him but procrastinated so didn't. You were lucky enough to have that choice - I didn't as for the last two years of her life my mother was in and out of hospital and being very ill most of the time so I didn't even get the luxury of spending much time with her and being so young can't really remember the times I did have with her for us to get to know each other. That is why I would like the stone. Not for guilt to apologise but to just get to know a bit more first hand about my mother.

I agree that all three hallows could be used for wrong reasons - including the cloak a it could be used to spy on people or do sneaky illegal things as well as shield people for good reasons. This also could apply to the others - they could be used for both good and bad things. All three hallows could be. That is why I say no one was really right.

[The_Old_One]

Originally Posted by inkling7

I'm sorry you lost your father but get the impression that you were older than I was and wanted to spend more time with him but procrastinated so didn't. You were lucky enough to have that choice - I didn't as for the last two years of her life my mother was in and out of hospital and being very ill most of the time so I didn't even get the luxury of spending much time with her and being so young can't really remember the times I did have with her for us to get to know each other. That is why I would like the stone. Not for guilt to apologise but to just get to know a bit more first hand about my mother.

I agree that all three hallows could be used for wrong reasons - including the cloak a it could be used to spy on people or do sneaky illegal things as well as shield people for good reasons. This also could apply to the others - they could be used for both good and bad things. All three hallows could be. That is why I say no one was really right.

Yes, I was probably older (well, I was 29 at the time, and I'm in my mid 50s now - I didn't choose "The Old One" lightly!!). And I too am sorry for the experiences you had. We all wish for things to have been different, at some point or other, but the key is to learn and move on and change what we want changed.

Now, I agree that the cloak could have been used for bad things too, so I think we agree on most points, certainly on our conclusions. I think we may have said it differently - kind of the half full vs. half empty approach - they were all right choices or they were none of them wrong choices. And I think, perhaps, we are emphasizing different aspects of the story - in my case the idea that the choice of Hallow is less important than the use (or non-use) to which it is put.

It is interesting, though, to see how different people who had each of the various Hallows reacted in certain ways, relative to Harry who possessed them all. This brings up a thought I had. It would seem from the story that Harry is the ONLY one who actually ever possesed all three Hallows simultaneously and mastered THEM instead of the other way around. At least the story is silent on that question. It makes me wonder whether the mere fact that one is extraordinary enough to merit ownership of all three simultaneously automatically makes one the Master of them (and therefore, of death), or can one possess all three hallows and yet still not be the Master of them? (And I mean extraordinary in a good sense, not the way Voldemort meant it when he called himself extraordinary in his last discussion with Snape)

I have some half-completed ideas about that, but it is an interesting topic on which to speculate. And since JKR hasn't given us any indication on this (at least none that I have been able to discern), it is ripe for the speculating!

M.

[WeasleDiva]

Hermione chooses the safety of the cloak, the hiding in the tent, the staying away from the action after their run-in at the Ministry.

Harry finally got to go to Godric's Hollow because Hermione is too upset about Ron's leaving to kick up a fuss. Dumbledore even mentioned counting on her holding Harry back.

Ron makes the mistake of choosing action - elder wand - fighting, too soon.
Hermione makes the mistake of choosing hiding. She is good a running away from the bad guys and protecting.

Fight or flight. Basic responses to danger.

Harry, as the leader, has to make the appropriate choices between these two extremes.

[zanaboo]

Robbie, you're such a wise person and such a gifted writer, you're always a great pleasure to read.

Thank you for your thoughtfulness - and your effort.

K

[hpboy13]

Well, I'm with you guys on the Stone, because I lost my father at 10 (gosh, what is this? have all HP fans lost parents at some point?). I just wonder what life would be like with him right now - probably not outright war between my mom and me, for one thing. For another, we'd probably be living in a normal house like most of my friends, and not the tiny apartment I'm stuck in right now. Ayway, on to more cheerful topics.

I don't think anyone has ever had all three Hallows at once before Harry, and since after Harry two of them are out of the picture, no one will again. Harry was the one and only master of the Hallows. However, here's an interesting idea. If the Peverell's are Voldemort's ancestors, and Voldy's ancestors are the descendents of Slytherin who would only intermarry, making the Peverells descendents of Slytherin, wouldn't that make Harry also a descendant of Slytherin? I'd love to clear this up, since that'd be quite the twist if it were valid, though it doens't seem like it could be.

[FishEByrd]

Thanks everybody!

Originally Posted by hpboy13

Well, I'm with you guys on the Stone, because I lost my father at 10 (gosh, what is this? have all HP fans lost parents at some point?). I just wonder what life would be like with him right now - probably not outright war between my mom and me, for one thing. For another, we'd probably be living in a normal house like most of my friends, and not the tiny apartment I'm stuck in right now.

I am truly sorry. Death happens, sadly even to dads. When my stepfather passed away, my half-brother (his son) was only 18, and it went very hard on him. Now the kid is 22, married, and about to become a father himself. I am sure he wishes his Dad could see it.

Myself, I am blessed to have both of my parents, plus my decidedly non-wicked stepmother, still alive and kicking. Still, I have been at war with Mom at different times, and I have lived in a tiny, crummy apartment too. The real tragedy would be if you never made it up with Mom. I hope you will come to see the situation you now live in as an opportunity, and an interesting experience, that you can build on.

I believe God gives us troubles to exercise our faith and strengthen our character. Perhaps this sounds like a platitude to you now, but it is what I have experienced. Being able to recall the crummy apartment, the divorce, & all the raw stuff that surrounded it & smile because I got through it stronger, and I am not currently a wreck, and I don't blame anybody for what happened, is a gift to be thankful for. And discovering that I didn't *need* all the things my friends were accustomed to - that I could live and even have a pretty good time without them - made me a more versatile & adaptable adult.

I'm sure it's hard to buy now. Moms and Dads tend to lose IQ points when you're around the age you are. Trust me, they gain them back & then some when you're in your 20s and 30s, and when you realize that they didn't have it any better than you did - sometimes quite a bit worse - but they didn't make a big deal about it, and they did their best for you.

[hpboy13]

Originally Posted by FishEByrd

Thanks everybody!



I am truly sorry. Death happens, sadly even to dads. When my stepfather passed away, my half-brother (his son) was only 18, and it went very hard on him. Now the kid is 22, married, and about to become a father himself. I am sure he wishes his Dad could see it.

Myself, I am blessed to have both of my parents, plus my decidedly non-wicked stepmother, still alive and kicking. Still, I have been at war with Mom at different times, and I have lived in a tiny, crummy apartment too. The real tragedy would be if you never made it up with Mom. I hope you will come to see the situation you now live in as an opportunity, and an interesting experience, that you can build on.

I believe God gives us troubles to exercise our faith and strengthen our character. Perhaps this sounds like a platitude to you now, but it is what I have experienced. Being able to recall the crummy apartment, the divorce, & all the raw stuff that surrounded it & smile because I got through it stronger, and I am not currently a wreck, and I don't blame anybody for what happened, is a gift to be thankful for. And discovering that I didn't *need* all the things my friends were accustomed to - that I could live and even have a pretty good time without them - made me a more versatile & adaptable adult.

I'm sure it's hard to buy now. Moms and Dads tend to lose IQ points when you're around the age you are. Trust me, they gain them back & then some when you're in your 20s and 30s, and when you realize that they didn't have it any better than you did - sometimes quite a bit worse - but they didn't make a big deal about it, and they did their best for you.

Thanks for the sympathy. Yeah, my family has what we like to call "Jewish luck" - it started with them being near Chernoble, and went downhill from there.

Thing is, I don't think I will make up with my mom - things have only been getting worse, and I look forward to losing contact with her completely once I'm in college. This isn't just your typical teen thing - we never got along even before then, but my dad kinda kept the peace between us.

I don't think I "need" all the stuff my friernds have - in fact, I get by without them just fine, and even have some advantages (for example: no room equals much less cleaning). Oddly enough, I'm the one usually throwing parties at my apartment, despite them having actual room for it. It's not so much the fact that I need all that stuff as the fact that I'd like it, and I know I'd have it if my dad were here. Anyway, I'll stop ranting about my life right now so the discussion can get back to this wonderful editorial!

[The_Old_One]

Robbie, hpboy13....

Ah, life... it is indeed a fascinating, sometimes painful, always surprising thing, is it not?

Robbie, it is not a platitude, but rather a truism, regardless of whether you believe in ANY deity, practice any religion, or not. If all it can be ascribed to is luck or accident, then some of us are luckier than others, some of us more accident-prone. The late Erma Bombeck, in her book "If life is a bowl of cherries, why am I in the pits" said it better than I can, that God doesn't give us more than we can handle, but some of us can handle more than others. In my experience, whether it is God, or luck, it seems that people get only what they can handle (a sick child seems to generally be the blessing of parents who have the ability to cope in some way... an afflicted parent is generally not too much for the children... a confrontative situation with a parent is generally because something is to be gained or learned through the confrontation, even if only as an example of how we would do it differently).

Anyone who has any of these things in their lives has my sympathy (and sometimes empathy too), but more than that, they have my admiration, even if I don't know them, because I imagine that they handle these things in ways that I could never do. And they do more than survive.. they learn, they advance and grow, they become better people.

So good on all of you!!

[hpboy13]

Thanks for reviving the thread (funny how it kinda fizzled out as soon as I suggested returning to the topic ). You kow, I've never actually looked at it that way before, and it's actually a very good outlook on life (better than most of our "Why does this happen to me?" outlooks). As for handling these things in ways you can't - trust me, you'd be very surprised by what you can handle if the situation calls for it. If you had asked me when I was nine if I could handle living without my dad, the answer would of course have been a resolute "no", because I couldn't even imagine that. Yet a year later, there I was. My only hope is, you'll never have to find that out yourself.

[roxy108]

I can't seem to put this book down. I have read it so many times already!!!!

Am I strange?!!!???
My husband does not understand howa person could get so into a fairytale story!!!!!

[Liselle]

well I think we all feel the same way

Welcome to the forums! I'm very glad you're enjoying the books.