Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by Rell

I really have to disagree. Elementary school teachers teach extremely important skills and content area that students need to know for older grades and for life in general. And elementary school teacher needs to be just as skilled as a high school teacher, because his/her job is just as important.

Well, let me try to explain a bit more of what i'm thinking. The skills they have to teach are the most basic, fundamental and important skills, reading, writing, adding, subtracting, etc. They aren't hard for people later on in life, but it's probably the hardest thing for kids. Elementary school teachers need only very basic skills when it comes to what they actually know, but are probably infinitely more skilled when it comes to actually teaching those skills. so i'm not concerned about how much knowledge they have. I would not want a high school teacher teaching elementary schoolers and vice versa.

But also, if an elementary school teacher can't teach, it's not really as much of a big deal. Parents can step in because the material isn't hard, the kids can get more practice later in middle school and high school. That kind of thing. But if a high school teacher can't teach, yes, the knowledge can be taught later, but the grades can affect things like passing the class to get out of high school, getting into a good college, etc. I think that's probably why the homeschooled kids who transferred did it during junior high or high school. The elementary school portion may be very important to the kids, but who teaches it isn't as narrowed down as in high school

[Rell]

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

But also, if an elementary school teacher can't teach, it's not really as much of a big deal. Parents can step in because the material isn't hard, the kids can get more practice later in middle school and high school. That kind of thing. But if a high school teacher can't teach, yes, the knowledge can be taught later, but the grades can affect things like passing the class to get out of high school, getting into a good college, etc. I think that's probably why the homeschooled kids who transferred did it during junior high or high school. The elementary school portion may be very important to the kids, but who teaches it isn't as narrowed down as in high school

But the skills learned in elementary school are essential in order to be successful in later grades, and taking time to reteach and review them then is a waste of time if they weren't mastered due to an incompetent teacher.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by Rell

But the skills learned in elementary school are essential in order to be successful in later grades, and taking time to reteach and review them then is a waste of time if they weren't mastered due to an incompetent teacher.

I think you may have misunderstood me because I was saying that the teacher desnt need to be smart but needs to be able to teach and make learning fun. Honestly, how hard is it to know and understand the alphabet and reading? Not hard at all, but teaching it is a totally different matter. But I'm still not that concerned because those skills are widely understood and its much easier for the parents or even those childrens games to help out than at a high school level

[SSJ_Jup81]

I don't feel that homeschooling should be made illegal. It's unfair, to be honest. If a parent feels that his or her child would benefit better with homeschooling, then the parent should be allowed that choice. The main thing I do agree with is that the children be taught by someone who is licensed to teach.

Now, the only downside I see when it comes to homeschooling is that, imo, the child won't learn the social skills that one does through public/private school. Seems that home-schooled children wouldn't have as much of an opportunity to interact with their peers or learn how to socialize with all sorts of people. I could be wrong, though, and wouldn't mind it if that claim is proven wrong.

[Rell]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

I don't feel that homeschooling should be made illegal. It's unfair, to be honest. If a parent feels that his or her child would benefit better with homeschooling, then the parent should be allowed that choice. The main thing I do agree with is that the children be taught by someone who is licensed to teach.

Private school students (in the US at least) are not required to be taught be someone with a teaching certificate, so why should it be different for home schooled students?

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by Rell

Private school students (in the US at least) are not required to be taught be someone with a teaching certificate, so why should it be different for home schooled students?

Some private schools require state certification or certification in the subject that you actually want to teach. Well, that's how it is for my state to my knowledge anyway. *Notes that I'm trying to become a teacher*

[DancingMaenid]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

Now, the only downside I see when it comes to homeschooling is that, imo, the child won't learn the social skills that one does through public/private school. Seems that home-schooled children wouldn't have as much of an opportunity to interact with their peers or learn how to socialize with all sorts of people. I could be wrong, though, and wouldn't mind it if that claim is proven wrong.

I don't think homeschooling necessarily causes those issues. In some cases, homeschoolers have more flexibility. They can see homeschooled friends when other children are in school, and sometimes children might study together, which is more interactive and social than the average classroom.

Also, I will say this. Growing up, I was always pretty comfortable talking to and socializing with a wide array of people, and I think the fact that my social life wasn't confined to just kids my own age helped that. Socialization in school is artificial to some extent. There aren't a whole lot of situations in life where you're mainly exposed only to people your own age. How much diversity a child is school is exposed to can depend on how diverse their district is, too.

[Hysteria]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

Some private schools require state certification or certification in the subject that you actually want to teach. Well, that's how it is for my state to my knowledge anyway. *Notes that I'm trying to become a teacher*

I'm a future teacher too, and some of the stuff we're doing at uni I think would be hard to just 'pick up' without attending uni and being a trained teacher. I think it's a bit worrying you don't need any kind of teaching certificate to be a teacher in the US, that certainly isn't the case here. I wouldn't make homeschooling illegal (though I'm not a fan) by any means but I think the parents who want to homeschool their kids should prove that they are capable of the responsibility.

[Rell]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

Some private schools require state certification or certification in the subject that you actually want to teach. Well, that's how it is for my state to my knowledge anyway. *Notes that I'm trying to become a teacher*

Many private schools do have this requirement, but legally, they don't have to, and I was taught at private school by some very talented teachers who were not certified. So I don't think that this should be a requirement for students being home schooled

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Homeschooling is kind of similar to tutoring, and at my school, we even have a system set in place to sort of place tutors with kids that need them. These tutors are high school students and certainly don't have a teaching certificateand probably are more helpful than half the teachers out there if for no other reason than more attention

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Rell

Many private schools do have this requirement, but legally, they don't have to, and I was taught at private school by some very talented teachers who were not certified. So I don't think that this should be a requirement for students being home schooled

My kids go to private school, and I know that many of the teachers do not have certification. I also know that the teachers that aren't talented are often not hired the following year. But that is the advantage that private schools have, they can give rigorous interviews before they hire a candidate and not rehire if it doesn't work out. Private schools also have the advantage of teaching the curriculum in different ways - they aren't always taking the standardized tests that most (US) public school kids are taking, and therefore don't have to spend the time teaching to the tests.

Homeschooling has that advantage as well. If a parent can teach an approved curriculum, and the child has full comprehension of it then the job is done. And there are set curriculum plans out there that parents use. It's not loosey goosey like "unschooling" is.

Also, I think getting certification doesn't always equal good teaching.

[Smitts]

I've never seen a issue with homeschooling if they child is learning.

Maybe there should just be some qualifications in order to home school.
Kind of like becoming a substitute teacher but a lot more of an honorable title.

[monster_mom]

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

Well, let me try to explain a bit more of what i'm thinking. The skills they have to teach are the most basic, fundamental and important skills, reading, writing, adding, subtracting, etc. They aren't hard for people later on in life, but it's probably the hardest thing for kids. Elementary school teachers need only very basic skills when it comes to what they actually know, but are probably infinitely more skilled when it comes to actually teaching those skills. so i'm not concerned about how much knowledge they have. I would not want a high school teacher teaching elementary schoolers and vice versa.

But also, if an elementary school teacher can't teach, it's not really as much of a big deal. Parents can step in because the material isn't hard, the kids can get more practice later in middle school and high school. That kind of thing. But if a high school teacher can't teach, yes, the knowledge can be taught later, but the grades can affect things like passing the class to get out of high school, getting into a good college, etc. I think that's probably why the homeschooled kids who transferred did it during junior high or high school. The elementary school portion may be very important to the kids, but who teaches it isn't as narrowed down as in high school

Therein lies the kicker. If you take the time to chat with professors of mathematics or professors in math dependent fields, they will tell you that many many many students come to them full of hope to be engineers and architects and scientists only to be turned away because their math skills are so remedial they can't keep up. Their students preform simple arithmetic without a 4 function calculator. They have no idea what the differences between a rational and an irrational number are or what effects can result from a quotient that repeats rather than terminates.

Elementary teachers need to understand the topics they teach because the skills they provide their students will carry them to higher math. If they don't understand the topic or it's importance, then how are they to know what skills are important for their students to master in order to be able to succeed in higher math, much less ensure that their students have been given sufficient instruction and practice to master those skills?

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by monster_mom

Elementary teachers need to understand the topics they teach because the skills they provide their students will carry them to higher math. If they don't understand the topic or it's importance, then how are they to know what skills are important for their students to master in order to be able to succeed in higher math, much less ensure that their students have been given sufficient instruction and practice to master those skills?

IMO, Elementary school isn't really all that bad. It's middle and high school that's the problem.

[monster_mom]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

IMO, Elementary school isn't really all that bad. It's middle and high school that's the problem.

I can not tell you how many elementary teachers I've heard say that they never got division or that subtraction was really really hard for them. If you struggled with subtraction and never got division, why on earth would you choose a career where you'd be responsible for teaching those topics to children.

Many of the instructional programs in use in elementary schools today reflect that, I'm sorry to say, incompetence. Subtraction is no longer taught. Instead, children are taught to add up to find the solution to a subtraction problem. Division isn't taught beyond basic math facts. Instead kids are given 4 function calculators and told to use them to solve division problems because solving them by hand is too tedious.

The net effect, many schools have abdicated the responsibility for teaching math to their students. I place much of that blame on well intentioned by ill informed education professionals who, to a large extent, are clueless about math.

[Mundungus Fletc]

Originally Posted by monster_mom

I can not tell you how many elementary teachers I've heard say that they never got division or that subtraction was really really hard for them. If you struggled with subtraction and never got division, why on earth would you choose a career where you'd be responsible for teaching those topics to children.

It is astonishing to me that quite intelligent people are happy to say they are innumerate (JKR cough) Primary school maths is not difficult and anyone who gets to college has no excuse for not being able to cope with it.

The law was changed here some years ago so that every teacher no matter what the age of the pupils or subject they teach has to have GCSE (OWL level) maths or they cannot teach,

[monster_mom]

Originally Posted by Mundungus Fletc

It is astonishing to me that quite intelligent people are happy to say they are innumerate (JKR cough) Primary school maths is not difficult and anyone who gets to college has no excuse for not being able to cope with it.

The district I live in is the 2nd largest in my state. We have over 70,000 students in the public schools in our district. The primary school my children attend had over 1100 students in it for grades Kindergarten to 5.

I was blown away when the head of our math department for the district stood before the entire school board and said she just never understood division and had a difficult time accepting that it was a necessary skill when calculators were so readily available. This woman has a Phd in education and is the head of the 2nd largest math division in the state.

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by monster_mom

The district I live in is the 2nd largest in my state. We have over 70,000 students in the public schools in our district. The primary school my children attend had over 1100 students in it for grades Kindergarten to 5.

I was blown away when the head of our math department for the district stood before the entire school board and said she just never understood division and had a difficult time accepting that it was a necessary skill when calculators were so readily available. This woman has a Phd in education and is the head of the 2nd largest math division in the state.

concerning your post on calculators in elementary school too. I never thought I'd be feeling old in high school. I was taught addition and subtraction, multiplication and division in elementary school. I can't really remember much, but I certainly didnt use a calculator.i remmber using all the times tables, long division, subtraction and multiplication of large numbers. And now that I'm in algebra, I can't use a calculator on variables. I've definitely had to use the skills, but I still don't think its a big deal in elementary school, seeing that I learned the same things from all of my teachers, reviewing and reviewing.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by Mundungus Fletc

It is astonishing to me that quite intelligent people are happy to say they are innumerate (JKR cough) Primary school maths is not difficult and anyone who gets to college has no excuse for not being able to cope with it.

I agree. Math is not one of my best subjects, but I can do the basics well (add, subtract, divide, multiply, read a calendar, tell time...).

I'm not against homeschooling. I know a few kids who were homeschooled and they turned out fine. But, I also know that it is not for everyone. There is a six year old boy in the Bible study I attend who is homeschooled (kids of the mothers in the study attend the children's program). He is incredibly shy. Worse than me. He is afraid of people to the point that it can make him sick. Being at home with his mom is a safety thing. She's his security blanket and as long as he's with her everything is fine. But, I think if he went to school (public or private) it would help. He would have to spend time away from her for five days a week, rather than just three hours once a week at Bible Study. He would have to interact with other kids, other people. It might be scary at first, but I think it would be an experience that would help him grow.

[SSJ_Jup81]

Originally Posted by monster_mom

The district I live in is the 2nd largest in my state. We have over 70,000 students in the public schools in our district. The primary school my children attend had over 1100 students in it for grades Kindergarten to 5.

I was blown away when the head of our math department for the district stood before the entire school board and said she just never understood division and had a difficult time accepting that it was a necessary skill when calculators were so readily available. This woman has a Phd in education and is the head of the 2nd largest math division in the state.

What I want to know is why this woman is allowed to teach. I'm trying to become a teacher. My weakest subject is math as far as the higher level ones are concerned, even if I did do decently with it when I originally took it at the time, but for me, if I don't use it, I lose it. I've never used any of the math I learned in high school and college outside of the classroom for everyday situations, but the basics learned in Elementary School, yeah. With the basics, which I can tutor fine, I don't have a problem with. That's another reason why I'd want to work with Elementary School students. I feel comfortable and confident in my ability to teach the subject. If a math teacher can't solve a math problem without the use of a calculator, I'd look into getting that person out of that profession and question whether or not the students are literally learning anything.

I'm old fashioned, and believe that calculators should be used to check work (even though I didn't have them when I was young...didn't really start using them until I got into high school, like for Chemistry and Geometry). I feel that one should learn the long way before attempting the short way, and I had a problem seeing this when I was a teaching assistant last year. These children couldn't solve the problems without a calculator, and the problems were easy. They felt they needed them. They seemed to spend more time learning the functions of the calculator than the actual material.

That aside, the Elementary Schools for my area aren't that bad and seems to put a lot of emphasis on learning. Seems that the middle and high schools are the problem here.