Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.2

[Moriath]

Welcome to the new version of this thread!

Please remember to focus on how Snape's and Lily's relationship evolved and the impact that it had on both characters.

Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

As you can see from the questions we want to focus this thread on the relationship as revealed by canon and how the characters were effected by it. Your personal reaction to the relationship is not on topic here, nor is a literary analysis of the relationship or a discussion of why JKR wrote things the way she did. Our hope is that re-focusing this on canon and on BOTH characters including Lily will allow a more pleasant discussion with fewer mod notes and thread closures.

Please read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray , In-Thread Moderator Warnings , and How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. before posting in this thread.

[LinnendeBlack]

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think Snape was so reluctant to approach her mainly because he was shy and nervous. He had little love shown to him at home and this would have affected how he dealt with people as a small child. I'm not so sure if he would have been interested in her if she had not been magical, I'll leave that one for discussion.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

I think Lily accepted Snape's friendship because she was curious about him, and because she was generally a nice person anyway so I think she probably would have been friends with him even if he hadn't told her about the magical world.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I don't think it was a friendship of equals. Snape clearly liked her more than she liked him IMO.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think they did, but ultimately it was Snape's involvement in the dark arts that pushed Lily away, and his final outburst towards her calling her a 'mudblood'.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

I think it was both. Lily disagreed with Snape's involvement with the dark arts, but it was his final insult that upset her the most and drove her away IMO.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

I don't mean to blame Snape constantly, but I think the dissolving of their friendship was entirely his fault. I can't see any mistake Lily made.

[wickedwickedboy]

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I don't think this characterizes the relationship accurately. Imo, Snape still considered Lily his best friend in 5th, but based on Lily's response to Snape asking if they were still best friends at that time, I would say Lily did not consider him her best friend.

Imo, the relationship had been drifting apart due to their different outlooks and both of them knew this - but Snape refused to admit it was true. In that particular memory, it seemed as if Snape was responding to something that Lily said which would place doubt on the notion that they were friends at all - let alone best friends.

I feel Lily had begun to compare her other relationships with her friendship with Snape and saw that it was no longer compatible with her life. Thus, while later Snape calling her a 'mudblood' was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I believe the friendship was quickly drawing to a close in any case.

[LinnendeBlack]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I don't think this characterizes the relationship accurately. Imo, Snape still considered Lily his best friend in 5th, but based on Lily's response to Snape asking if they were still best friends at that time, I would say Lily did not consider him her best friend.

Imo, the relationship had been drifting apart due to their different outlooks and both of them knew this - but Snape refused to admit it was true. In that particular memory, it seemed as if Snape was responding to something that Lily said which would place doubt on the notion that they were friends at all - let alone best friends.

I feel Lily had begun to compare her other relationships with her friendship with Snape and saw that it was no longer compatible with her life. Thus, while later Snape calling her a 'mudblood' was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, I believe the friendship was quickly drawing to a close in any case.

Agreed. I think it was a 'doomed' friendship. Many friendships are. It is just sad that Snape was in love with her because the fact that the friendship alone could never have worked makes it even harder to bear.

[Yoana]

I don't fully agree with any of the options. I believe, although there isn't much canon, that she was a good friend to Severus, but I don't fully agree she gave up easily. I think it fell apart due to the situation which Severus couldn't really understand and assess well enough in order to act appropriately. Believing she would be impressed with him joining Voldemort is enough evidence of that. He didn't know what was going on, what was different and why, and he didn't know how to handle the situation. The sad result was that he enhanced the divergence in his attempt to bring things back to how they must have been in their early years. It's so sadto even think about this...

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Yoana

I don't fully agree with any of the options. I believe, although there isn't much canon, that she was a good friend to Severus, but I don't fully agree she gave up easily. I think it fell apart due to the situation which Severus couldn't really understand and assess well enough in order to act appropriately. Believing she would be impressed with him joining Voldemort is enough evidence of that. He didn't know what was going on, what was different and why, and he didn't know how to handle the situation. The sad result was that he enhanced the divergence in his attempt to bring things back to how they must have been in their early years. It's so sadto even think about this...

One thing to take into account is that it appears it was the way of the wizard world back then. Peter did the same thing: reject his friends over Voldemort and end up hurting them as a result of his association. But they were not alone. Sirius said that no one knew who they could trust. It would seem relatives, friends and acquaintances alike were all turning out to be Death Eaters or heading off to be one in many people's lives. From that standpoint, I don't see the ending of relationships as sad but rather as reprehensible. Imagine Regulus making plans to end his own brother's life...

[demonthes]

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think he was somewhat reluctant to approach her because he was very shy. He didn't have many friends and was interested in Lily but was unsure how to confront these feelings.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
I think she accepted his friendship because he seemed genuinely sweet, and shy at the same time. He clearly liked her and she probably saw nothing wrong with that.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
I'm not really sure how to approach this question. By equals I assume it's meant that they both were equals in their friendship. If that's assumed then I don't think they were equals. My main reasoning behind this is I believe that Snape liked Lily more and probably embellished their relationship more than she did. With that being said, I think they were both equals in the sense that they enjoyed the other's company but other than that I think they were on different levels of feelings for each other. Snape liked Lily more than she did him.

4. How did Hogwarts affect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think Hogwarts greatly affected their friendship. The house system definitely takes its tolls on inter-house friendships because it makes them harder to keep up, when compared to intra-house friendships.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
Environment certainly has its effects on people and I believe this showed on their relationship. They each began to think and act more like those in their respective houses, spreading them apart somewhat. Had they been in different houses, but still separate ones, I think they still would have been distanced somewhat, but maybe in different ways depending on their houses.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
I don't think they ever would have had a romantic future. It seems possible that they could have had a lifelong friendship. They had been able to sustain it for quite sometime and I believe it could have continued, but I don't think it ever would have evolved into anything romantic.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by Yoana

My whole point was that the idea that we fall in love with someone after assessing their merits and measuring their lovability index is absurd to me, based on my whole experience, and I have never - NEVER - seen but 1 example of this happening. Besides, this theory will never explain how come people who are less than perfect amd have many character flaws are also loved by someone; it can't explain why you don't fall in love with all the wonderful, deserving people you meet - I doubt Lily met only one man "deserving" of her love in her lifetime; it just doesn't explain anything. It's so unrealistic, its practically insupportable by reasonable arguments. And I stand by my previous statement, because I do believe in it - love is irrational. Literalli irrational. Therefore, neither you, nor I, nor wickedwickedboy could ever know whom Lily could or couldn't love - if she were a real person, the thought that we could would have been presumptuous.

I agree with most of that. Lily had feelings for James even when she didn't approve of his behaviour. But, she didn't act on them until he deflated his head a bit. People can't help who they fall in love with, but they can control what they do about it, and whether ot not they want to have a relationship, IMO. It's just the attraction that is not under their control.

Whether it was James or Snape who was more deserving doesn't make any difference to the fact that Lily loved James. Snape could have been a saint, and Lily would still have been attracted to James.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

Fair enough - you can't see how Lily could love Snape. I however see no problem with their personalitites that might make them romantically incompatible.

As in, they are both heterosexual? Beyond that, I don't see how their personalities match. Lily was making excuses for Snape and pretending the whole time she was with Snape. Lily saw him as a friend, while Snape was essentially, lying about their relationship. Snape's actions do not indicate that he valued their friendship. Thus, IMO, what relationship they had was based on lies, and was doomed to failure. I honestly don't see how it could develop into a romantic relationship. Yeah, I know that Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape that way, but having feelings for someone is quite different from love or a relationship, IMO.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

Yes Snape behaved in a despicable manner but what I find interesting are the complexities of the man that led him to behave this way. I am here to discuss Snape's character not to judge him.

Hey! Me too!
The problem is that the more I examine it, the more I end up being disgusted by his behaviour. I don't think that phrases like 'socially inept' or 'strict and stern' are enough to explain Snape's demeanour. Socially inept would he Harry struggling to ask Cho out, or Hermione being insensitive to Lavender when her pet has just died. Snape bullying his students can hardly be passed off as social awkwardness.

Snape is smart but he hasn't a clue about emotions or how to deal with them. As for him thinking that getting back at James was more important than honouring Lily - that confuses thoughts and feelings and implies a level of consciousness regarding his emotions that Snape simply didn't have.

So, basically, you're saying that Snape didn't mean to call her a mudblood, that he didn't mean to intentionally insult her to get back at James. That makes sense. After all, even Snape would know that it's not wise to hurl racial slurs at the girl you're in love with.

That would suggest that Snape had subconsciously thought of Lily as a mudblood, IMO. She was special to him, no doubt, but he still saw her muggle-only parentage as a flaw that he was willing, or even magnanimous enough to overlook. Being the 'Half-blood Prince' was clearly important to him, which would indicate that he believed that he was superior to muggleborns, including Lily. This idea, that Lily was his inferior, was what he thought about her, deep down. IMO, it also explains his possesiveness, and his objectifying Lily on occasions. Of course, he knew consciously, that she would skin him if he ever told her that , and he took care to say the right things whenever he spoke to her.

During SWM, Snape must have felt so deeply humiliated. To be tormented in such a way in front of the whole school, with his own spells no less. And then, Lily had to come and bail him out. To have to be saved by someone he considered an inferior, that must have really rankled. I think that he was deeply angry at Lily too, at this point, for coming to his 'rescue', as if he needed 'help'. And to have it rubbed in his face by his enemy, well, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

Is it realistic when a man blames his own infant child for the death of the woman he loved in childbirth? Of course it is unfair! But it has happened and will continue to happen. Life isn't fair. People aren't fair - especially where emotions are involved.

Not everyone in that situation end up blaming their child either. The ones that do are the ones with issues that need to be addressed. I can fully understand Snape's behaviour, but I can't say that it is justified in any way. If people have issues they have to deal with it. What's truly unfair about the whole situation is that Harry has no idea why Snape is the way he is, and Snape won't let Harry know either.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

Love is irrational. There is no sense to it. Before I met my husband I had a vague idea of the type of man I'd like to marry. My husband is so unlike this "mythical perfect husband" it's genuinely funny and I laugh when I think about how ludicrous I was.

Cool. In a way, wasn't this the case with James and Lily as well? Lily would never have believed at 11 that she'd end up being married to the 'rude boy' from the train.

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

I think what PerfectDystopia means is that Lily did think there were more men deserving of her love - she loved Sirius, Remus, and Peter too did she not? Yet she never loved them romantically. Some people you're just always friends with, like with Harry and Hermione. There are parts of Snape's personality I don't think Lily would ever be happy with - like his inability to let things go, and his method of communication and lack of listening to her when he doesn't think what she's saying is important.

Exactly. From what we see, these things did frustrate Lily, as did having to make excuses for a relationship, and having to justify her friend's actions to herself and to others.

I think that this must have been true of Snape as well. He'd have had to explain to his Slytherin buddies why he was hanging out with a 'filthy mudblood', and explain her actions as well. In that regard, the ending of the friendship must have been quite a relief for the two of them, and it also must have eased the tension on the relationships with their other friends.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I respectfully disagree. I don't believe Snape was drawn to loathsome acts all his life; yes he as a spy probably did a lot of things that were dubious in nature, once he turned, but they were for the Light and they were acts that helped Harry Potter win the war with Voldemort IMO.

I agree with WWB that bullying children in his care is pretty loathsome behaviour. And worse, he seems to take a lot of pleasure from it.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

one such act to kill Dumbledore; spend the next year as the most hated man and be content with the descriptions of traitor and betrayer and die at the hands of Voldemort for the Elder wand for Harry to use a simple expellarmus that defeated Voldemort in the end IMO.

I understand that. In fact, Snape's last year might well have been his tamest to date.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

In OOTP Sirius and Remus tell Harry that Lily never knew the fights they (meaning four) had against one Snape. So that apparently never came to an end all of their schooldays when James started going out with Lily sometime in 7th year.

Where's the mention of this four-on-one? I couldn't find it in OoTP.

OoTP 'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin. 'Even Snape?' said Harry. Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' 'And my mum was OK with that?' 'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,' said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?' Sirius frowned at Harry, who was still looking unconvinced. 'Look,' he said, 'your father was the best friend I ever had and he was a good person. A lot of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. He grew out of it.'

As for the truth of the four-on-one, this is the way I see it. If the marauders were hanging out, and Snape took a shot at James, naturally, all of his friends would get involved. They look out for each other as friends do. Snape is a loner, though, and doesn't have friends who would fight by his side. Naturally, he would see it as a four-on-one. To me, it's the same as the DA hexing Draco and gang when they try to get at Harry.

@TGW: How does Sirius's rhetorical question imply that James hexed Snape when they were out of Lily's sight? I don't see how something that Sirius did not say or even suggest overrides what Remus says in the line before, that James only got Snape back.

[violator]

I think they could've stayed friends if Snape hadn't fallen for her. Everything he did wrong seemed to stem from a desire to "win" her romantically. Even the Death Eater enthusiasm seems to me to be inspired by a wish to become bigger in her eyes.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

As in, they are both heterosexual? Beyond that, I don't see how their personalities match. Lily was making excuses for Snape and pretending the whole time she was with Snape. Lily saw him as a friend, while Snape was essentially, lying about their relationship. Snape's actions do not indicate that he valued their friendship. Thus, IMO, what relationship they had was based on lies, and was doomed to failure. I honestly don't see how it could develop into a romantic relationship. Yeah, I know that Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape that way, but having feelings for someone is quite different from love or a relationship, IMO.

Well I'm not sure about what you mean about their personalities matching so I'll assume you mean you don't see how they are compatible - like I said that's fair enough - it's all just a matter of opinion. As for Snape lying - I'm not sure what you mean by that
I disagree that Snape's actions do not indicate that he values their friendship. I think he valued their friendship but he behaved like a jerk. It happens. I know that we can only judge what a character thinks or feels by the way they behave, but sometimes people - and therefore characters - do strange things that seem to contradict the notion that they are friends with someone or that they love someone. I think that Snapes behaviour in going to Dumbledore showed that he valued Lily above everything. I think his behaviour towards Lily in their fifth year showed that he was a jerk, that he was being pulled in oppposite directions by his house-mates and by Lily and that he really didn't have a clue about how to deal with his emotions or how to relate to people.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

The problem is that the more I examine it, the more I end up being disgusted by his behaviour. I don't think that phrases like 'socially inept' or 'strict and stern' are enough to explain Snape's demeanour. Socially inept would he Harry struggling to ask Cho out, or Hermione being insensitive to Lavender when her pet has just died. Snape bullying his students can hardly be passed off as social awkwardness.

I don't think that I have used any of those phrases to describe Snape. And just because Snape's behaviour is at time disgusting, that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know how to relate to people, and that he is generally an awkward loner. It is easy to just write someone off as a nasty piece of work, but I would far rather pick over the minutiae of what is, to me, the most interesting character in the book. For me that means going beyond judging his behaviour and looking at the the psychology of the character and all the influences - both external and internal - that effect his behaviour.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

So, basically, you're saying that Snape didn't mean to call her a mudblood, that he didn't mean to intentionally insult her to get back at James. That makes sense. After all, even Snape would know that it's not wise to hurl racial slurs at the girl you're in love with.

Um I don't know what Snape calling Lily "mudblood" has got to do with this - I was referring specifically to Snape's treatment of Harry in response to someone.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Not everyone in that situation end up blaming their child either. The ones that do are the ones with issues that need to be addressed. I can fully understand Snape's behaviour, but I can't say that it is justified in any way. If people have issues they have to deal with it. What's truly unfair about the whole situation is that Harry has no idea why Snape is the way he is, and Snape won't let Harry know either.

How can I make this clear? I am not suggestting that it is acceptable to blame a child for their parents death. I am not attempting to justify Snape's behaviour. I am just saying that these things happen, and saying it's not fair doesn't stop it from happening.
I repeat - and I hope this is clear to everyone - I am not trying to justify Snape's behaviour - I want to look at why he behaves the way he does. Just because I don't say that his behaviour is unacceptable in every post does not mean that I think that his bad behaviour is acceptable.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

If the marauders were hanging out, and Snape took a shot at James, naturally, all of his friends would get involved. They look out for each other as friends do.

Let us not forget that the marauders were not averse to hexing Snape (or anyone else for that matter) "just for fun"

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Snape is a loner, though, and doesn't have friends who would fight by his side.

What we see in SWM is effectively Snape's friend (Lily) coming to help him out. Being the peacable kind she tries to get James to stop rather than hexing him back. In this scene she reminds me a bit of Hermione, who I think would behave in the same way - trying to get the bullies to stop rather than fighting back with her friend.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Remus says in the line before, that James only got Snape back.

This is a little off-topic but that isn't what Lupin says. He didn'y say that James only ever got Snape back, he says that "Snape was a special case. I mean he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you really couldn't expect James to take that lying down"
In other words there was particular emnity between Snape and James that meant that they continued to hex each other even after James had calmed down and stopped hexing people randomly for fun. I don't think it is meant to imply that James never initiated a hex battle, and only ever retaliated.

Originally Posted by violator

I think they could've stayed friends if Snape hadn't fallen for her. Everything he did wrong seemed to stem from a desire to "win" her romantically. Even the Death Eater enthusiasm seems to me to be inspired by a wish to become bigger in her eyes.

That is a very good point! It seems to be common amongst teenage boys to think they have to be impressive to get girls to like them. The Marauders say that James made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around - it's not a huge leap to think that Severus might be doing the same.

[LinnendeBlack]

Love is certainly irrational. The bottom line is that Lily loved James. She had feelings for James. Snape had feelings for her but they were unreturned, and he lied to himself about their relationship. I don't see how Lily could have loved Snape either.

[violator]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

That is a very good point! It seems to be common amongst teenage boys to think they have to be impressive to get girls to like them. The Marauders say that James made a fool of himself whenever Lily was around - it's not a huge leap to think that Severus might be doing the same.

Thank you. I thought so because he seemed to care for her more than gor the other things.

[elvischick101]

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
~This is an interesting question. On one hand, I believe he may still have been a bit interested in Lily had she been a muggle. But on the other hand, we all saw how he treated and was treated by Petunia. This brings up his future tendencies against muggles. As a whole, I still think he would have been reluctant to speak to her, if he chose to speak to her at all. It's very possible that he wouldn't speak to her, since the fact that she was a witch was the sole reason he chose to in the first place.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
~Lily was a very loving and accepting person, so I believe she would still have communicated with him (but probably not to the extent of a full friendship; mainly on the premises of her guiding sister). I also believe that what Snape told Lily about the Wizarding World was a great draw in to Lily. The chance to learn all she could about the society she truly belonged to would be enticing to any normal 11 year old.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
~This depends on what we consider "equals". Do you mean morally equal? Or EQUAL as in the sense that everyone is equal? To begin with, they were 11 years old when they met. At this time they were not mature enough, IMO, to not be equals. I mean to say that, yes Lily already showed signs of the great woman she was to become, and Snape was, well, the immature run of the mill 11 year old boy we all know and (well kind of) love. As they mature, they both grow into two opposite people. This, IMO, is caused by various factors throughout there preteen years at Hogwarts. So, by the end of their friendship, I would have to say that morally Lily was far ahead than Snape ever was.
Lily plays the role of the down-to-earth, smart, common-sensical (is that a word? lol) girl, musch IMO like Hermione is. Snape, on the other hand, was the eccentric, disorganized, some-what off role. In all, I think that they complemented eachother at the time when evil was not a factor.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
~I think that as they grew they both matured into two very different people. IMO, Hogwarts would not have been a direct factor in their friendship, but the other students (as we see in OOTP) were ultimately one major cause of their split. Take James for example. He was Snape's enemy from the get-go and the fact that Lily eventually fell in love and had a child with this man put one major strain on the relationship. Lily also states that Snape's friends were despicable and that she could never be friends with that type of people.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
~I don't think that Gryffindor really had an effect on Lily. We already saw the good side of her back in Spinner's End and I don't think she would have changed much either way.
Snape, on the other hand, would have had a much different lookout on life if he had been sorted into another house IMO. In the beginning he was already sort of bent toward his Slytherin way, but it is obvious that the students in Slytherin had a major hand in his future power search and Death Eater status.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
~I think it was a little bit of everything. He was interested in becoming a DE and the Dark Arts (which disgusted Lily), he insulted her, and ultimately she chose his one enemy over him.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
~It all depends on how far each would have been willing to go. Lily could have been more leniant (sp?) and Snape coult NOT HAVE JOINED THE DEATH EATERS. But you know, I don't think they would have ever considered this as a possibility.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
~I do not think that they would have had a romantic future due to Lily's preferences. But I do believe that they could have had at least a lifelong friendship. That is, if they could get over the minor flaws of each other's and be at peace with the romantic choices (ie James) that the other makes.

[Beatifically]

What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

Both. Snape's interest in the Dark Arts and aspirations to be a Death Eater were a huge factor in Lily's decision to end the friendship. The Mudblood comment was also important because it was a wakeup call to Snape's nature. It wasn't the comment itself that made Lily snap, it was the fact that Snape was willing to use such a derogatory slur against his own best friends and that he used it against Muggleborns as well. As Lily said, why should she be any different?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Was there a differense Snape could have made? Yes, definitely. He could have listened to his best friend and turn his back against loathsome people and acts.

As is obvious by what I voted in the poll, I do not believe there is anything Lily could have made. I see nothing wrong in ending a friendship if one of the people in the friendship is behaving in a manner that goes against one's morals. Lily was aware that her friend was interested in the Dark Arts - the branch of magic that is intended to be used for malicious purposes - and found them amusing. What's worse is that Lily was aware that Snape wanted to give his allegiance to Voldemort by becoming a Death Eater. By having an interest in joining Voldemort's circle of followers, he was agreeing to aiding in the persecution of Muggles, Muggleborns and bloodtraitors. Lily and her family were targets of Voldemort's terror - it's no wonder Lily was apalled by Snape's interest in the Death Eaters. Lily had morals and didn't forsake them so she could have her friendship with Snape last longer. Lily ultimately chose the right decision, and I see no wrong in doing that.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

As in, they are both heterosexual? Beyond that, I don't see how their personalities match. Lily was making excuses for Snape and pretending the whole time she was with Snape. Lily saw him as a friend, while Snape was essentially, lying about their relationship. Snape's actions do not indicate that he valued their friendship. Thus, IMO, what relationship they had was based on lies, and was doomed to failure. I honestly don't see how it could develop into a romantic relationship. Yeah, I know that Jo said Lily could have come to love Snape that way, but having feelings for someone is quite different from love or a relationship, IMO.

You said it perfectly. Personalities don't have to be very similar, but I never got the impression that Lily and Snape could have developed a romantic relationship from the personalities shown in the series. I can't see how their personalities complement each other; it's already hard for me to fathom them being best friends.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by elvischick101

Lily plays the role of the down-to-earth, smart, common-sensical (is that a word? lol) girl, musch IMO like Hermione is. Snape, on the other hand, was the eccentric, disorganized, some-what off role. In all, I think that they complemented eachother at the time when evil was not a factor.

I don't think Lily was much like Hermione, however I do agree that she was very down to earth, whereas Snape's view of their relationship was more of his own fantasy. I don't think the two complemented each other at all. Their communication methods were a big problem and communication is very important in a long term relationship. Lily was very straight forward, Snape kept things inside and Lily married a man who was also very open. Another problem with their communication was that Snape only listened to what he wanted to hear from Lily. He ignores her concerns about his friends and enjoyment of the dark art, and only really pays attention to her calling James Potter a toerag. Imo, that is not a healthy relationship.

According to canon, their senses of humour were on opposite sides of the spectrum. Snape found using dark arts on girls funny and Lily found it disgusting. I can't imagine how two people with such different views of humor managed to stay friends for so long.

You say, "on the other hand, Snape was disorganized" - so do you mean to say you think Lily is organized? If so, where in canon does it state that she is an organized person?

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by elvischick101

Snape, on the other hand, was the eccentric, disorganized, some-what off role.

Snape was disorganized? I got the impression that he was all about control and organization. That's what made him a good potioneer. One small misstep and an entire potion goes wrong, even when it comes to how many stirs in one direction or another.

[CathyWeasley]

Originally Posted by CBW

Snape was disorganized? I got the impression that he was all about control and organization. That was what made him a good potioneer. One small misstep and an entire potion goes wrongs, even when it comes to how many stirs in one direction or another.

I agree. I always thought Snape was a bit of a control freak.

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

Their communication methods were a big problem and communication is very important in a long term relationship. Lily was very straight forward, Snape kept things inside and Lily married a man who was also very open.

My husband and I are very different when it comes to communication - I'm very open and he isn't (honestly it's like getting blood out of a stone) but we've been married for 17 years so I don't see that this has to be a problem - as I've said before a relationshop is about working togethr to overcome difficulties.

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

Another problem with their communication was that Snape only listened to what he wanted to hear from Lily. He ignores her concerns about his friends and enjoyment of the dark art, and only really pays attention to her calling James Potter a toerag.

To me this was the real problem - his lack of listening. This is Snape's brand of arrogance - he is convinced that he is right about the whole Dark Arts/DE thing and thinks that he will be proved right in the end and Lily will come to see things from his POV.
It is listening IMO which is key to making a relationship work.

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

According to canon, their senses of humour were on opposite sides of the spectrum.

I disagree. I think Lily would have enjoyed Sev's dry and wicked sense of humour. I think the twitch of the lips in SWM tells us that she found the situation funny and gave a clear indication of her sense of humour. I can imagine Sev causing her fits of giggles at times with his caustic remarks.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

To me this was the real problem - his lack of listening. This is Snape's brand of arrogance - he is convinced that he is right about the whole Dark Arts/DE thing and thinks that he will be proved right in the end and Lily will come to see things from his POV. It is listening IMO which is key to making a relationship work.

That's what I saw. And we actually have early indications prior to Hogwarts that he wasn't tuned into Lily's concerns. The Hogwarts' conversations we were shown definitely indicated that he wasn't listening. It's not an uncommon problem, but it's a serious problem.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

I disagree. I think Lily would have enjoyed Sev's dry and wicked sense of humour. I think the twitch of the lips in SWM tells us that she found the situation funny and gave a clear indication of her sense of humour. I can imagine Sev causing her fits of giggles at times with his caustic remarks.

I would respectfully disagree. Lily would hardly break into a fit of giggles if Snape made his "I see no difference" comment. Her lips might twitch just as they did in SWM, but even in SWM, she didn't allow herself to giggle because she didn't wish to condone making fun of others - even if she did see the humor - her sense of justice was greater.

In that light, Lily's sense of humor was dissimilar from James' at that time. She saw the funny aspects of pranking, but it was something she did not wish to giggle about. Same with Snape. She might see the humor in his caustic remarks and her lips may twitch, but she wouldn't allow herself to break into giggles and condone making fun of others. And with Snape, she wouldn't share his humor at all when it came to dark arts pranking - that would just make her angry (her lips didn't twitch when he issued his sectumsempra curse). So her sense of humor was even further apart from Snape's at that time.

Whether or not Lily needed to lighten up when it came to non-dark arts pranking and harmless caustic comments is for each reader to decide (assuming most wouldn't find dark-arts pranking funny as Snape did), but that is how Lily appeared to look at things at that time.

[PerfectDystopia]

Originally Posted by Yoana

My whole point was that the idea that we fall in love with someone after assessing their merits and measuring their lovability index is absurd to me, based on my whole experience, and I have never - NEVER - seen but 1 example of this happening. Besides, this theory will never explain how come peopel who are less than perfect amd have many character flaws are also loved by someone; it can't explain why you don't fall in love with all the wonderful, deserving people you meet - I doubt Lily met only one man "deserving" of her love in her lifetime; it just doesn't explain anything. It's so unrealistic, its practically insupportable by reasonable arguments. And I stand by my previous statement, because I do believe in it - love is irrational. Literalli irrational. Therefore, neither you, nor I, nor wickedwickedboy could ever know whom Lily could or couldn't love - if she were a real person, the thought that we could would have been presumptuous.

Then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I believe you only really "love" someone if you really know that person. Apparently you don't think the same. Anyways, I never said Lily met only one deserving man in her lifetime. What I said ( or meant to say) is that you fall in love with someone who has the special "something something" that you like. James obviously had that special "something something" that Lily liked and that's probably why she gave James a shot. I'm not saying Remus, Sirius, and Severus didn't have a special "something something" but if Lily didn't have romantic feeling about them, then I think it is safe to say Lily regarded her attraction to Remus', Sirius', and Severus' "something something" as platonic.

What does that have to do with me loving him? Or do you think we can only love people who love us back?

So you can like a guy who doesn't like you? Okay.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasly

I think Lily would have enjoyed Sev's dry and wicked sense of humour.

Whoa, Snape had a sense of humor? When? I never noticed anything Snape said that was particularly funny.