Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[TLFL22]

I think that Lily loved both men in two totally different ways...even though I am a huge Snape/Lily supporter. I am going to use an example, an example that I am sort of ashamed to use. But if anyone here has ever seen the finale of Dawson's Creek, then the parallel between Joey, Pacey, Dawson and then Lily, Snape, and James are perfect.

You see to Joey her love for Dawson was out of pure innocence, they were each others childhood, they could be up in each others rooms in the wee hours of the night and talk of nothing but of fairy tales...kind of like how Lily felt about Snape. Snape opened up this fascinating new world for her, but it was a love out of innocence. I am not trying to take anything away from Lily/Snape, believe me I wish they ended up together...but it was a pure love, and even though it was not physical, it was still strong...strong enough to turn a dark man back into the light.

Next onto Joey's relationship with Pacey...Joey and Pacey when they were younger could not be anywhere near each other because they hated each other. Then the second Dawson turned his back, Pacey and Joey feel in love. Joey grew comfortable with Dawson, she always knew his next move or what he would say next. Pacey on the other hand totally challeneged her, always keeping her guessing on, keeping her on her toes. Thats how I see Lily and James. James challeneged Lily, kept her guessing, something that was previously missing in her life.

In the season finale Joey has to make her final decision about who she wants to be with...she choses Pacey--because that was an ADULT relationship. And that is why I believe Lily was more connected to James, because it was based on GROWING UP together--while imo, Snape was too focused on the past, on things staying exactly the same. That does not make Snape a bad person, nor does it make Lily a bad person for chosing James...you can't chose who you fall in love with...

And like Joey...I believe that Lily loved both of them, but in different ways.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I respect your view, but I have to disagree with this, in particular the suggestions that Snape's emotions were "obsessive, possessive and self-centered" and that unrequited love is portrayed as not "something to be valued".

As I see it, Snape's love for Lily is portrayed as the least self-centred thing about him and Harry's speech about it to Voldemort is, in my view, phrased in such a way as to romanticise it.

Yes, at times Snape shows "jealousy, hatred, mistreatment and cruelty to Harry", but I see no evidence that any of these things is portrayed as being a direct result of the unrequited nature of his love. Snape is portrayed as being engaged in a mutual feud with James long before he is a serious rival for Lily's hand, so I don't think any of these emotions/actions can be entirely attributed to Snape's love for Lily.

I respect your view also, but the thing is, Snape hated Sirius as much, if not more, due to the childhood rivalry. Sirius was Harry's beloved godfather and also admittedly arrogant, reckless, rule breaking, impertinent and in Snape's eyes, an attempted murderer to boot. And yet, we get no belittling and constant ridicule of Sirius from Snape - in fact, in the very story where Sirius supposedly tried to murder him, Snape painted James as the villain. . JKR said that Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's love for another man and that fueled his hatred for the child. In my opinion, that speaks to jealousy, as well as the canon based reason I gave. So while it was Snape's self-endowed side job to belittle and ridicule James, as a reader, I did not fall for his speeches because it was evident (in light of DH) that they were fueled by jealousy foremost, and the enemy relationship only adding a little more heat to the flame, imo.

And in HP people whose love is returned also exhibit jealousy and hatred of their rivals (e.g. Ron's jealousy of Krum, Mrs Weasley's unhappiness when Arthur flirts with Mme Delacour, Harry's urge to punch Dean Thomas when he sees him kissing Ginny). Requited love can also be selfish (e.g. couple like the Dursleys and the Malfoys, who are happy in their own family relationships and don't give a hang about anyoen outside the family unit)

Oh absolutely; I did not mean to imply that Snape was the only jealous person in the book. . Hermione, Ginny, and all those you mentioned did too. Jealousy was only one aspect of Snape's unrequited love; as I mentioned, that jealousy devolved into active hatred - meaning - Snape acted on his jealousy in behaving in a cruel and mean-spirited manner toward Harry, imo. And he also was a very embittered, and seemingly depressed individual who never shined in personality or character from the emotions that Lily engendered within him. To me, a less selfish consequence of love would have been shown through civil treatment of Lily's son - that is just basic for me. Belittling her husband aloud before her orphan child - when he'd helped to kill her husband was also disrespectful toward Lily, imo, and something done in order for Snape to make himself feel better by venting, in my judgment. That is what I mean by selfish - that he was not behaving in terms of what would have made Lily happy (and thus himself happy because he'd want to do that.) Instead, he appeared to think only of his own sentiments, imo. The obsessive and possessive elements are not important to this construction and we can just agree to disagree on that aspect if you like.

Are you saying that Snape would be a better, less self-centred person if he had got over Lily, moved on and married a nice pureblood girl, as Voldemort recommended?

I feel he would have been way better off less self-centered with his focus broadened to include a wife or woman he loved and met later in life, after leaving the Death Eaters. Blood type should have made no difference. With his focus concentrated on a dead woman who had never loved him romantically and he'd never been able to show his emotions to, he was unable to take that step that would have opened up "life" for him, imo. Perhaps he would not marry, but he could have a girl friend that he never told Voldemort about.

However, as JKR said, based on his character, who would date Snape? Now, I realize some people here have indicated that they would like to date Snape, so perhaps JKR is mistaken and some women would enjoy the company of such a man as he was. If that is true, then hopefully that woman would be able to address his needs in a way that would help improve his personality and behavior - and I think that is a possibility if those speaking, speak the truth and would actually date the man. Being male I have no opinion on that other than in general he doesn't seem like the type of bloke a woman would want to date.

His love for Lily doesn't make him perfect, but IMO it makes him a much better person than he would have been without it.

But that is what I said I felt JKR was saying as well and I agree. It did make him better than he would have been. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to help him in a personal sense, imo, beyond mere 'good v. evil'. That is why if a woman would date him, he would have been a better person for taking her up on it, imo, as long as it wasn't someone with the disposition of Bella. .

Notably no bedtrick, though - that was more Merope's style. Snape never forced Lily to be with him, and I think the Merope contrast was deliberately included to emphasise this.

Agreed. I was just speaking in terms of Angelo lording it over everyone with his self-righteousness and at the same time pursuing Isabella.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

But that is what I said I felt JKR was saying as well and I agree. It did make him better than he would have been. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to help him in a personal sense, imo, beyond mere 'good v. evil'. That is why if a woman would date him, he would have been a better person for taking her up on it, imo, as long as it wasn't someone with the disposition of Bella. .

Ridiculously off-topic but I can't see Severus being attracted to Bellatrix in a million years. I think the Spinner's End chapter proves that pretty conclusively.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Ridiculously off-topic but I can't see Severus being attracted to Bellatrix in a million years. I think the Spinner's End chapter proves that pretty conclusively.

...agreed. Tying it to the thread; I am still trying to figure out why JKR allowed Bella to be cast as such a hottie in the movies. Because if that is true to canon, it is rather odd that all of the DEs, including young Snape, hadn't been in love with her. That would have drawn his attention from Lily - but maybe her disposition pre-Azkaban wasn't much better than what we saw of her in the series. But yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he had no liking for her whatsoever in that chapter.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Because if that is true to canon, it is rather odd that all of the DEs, including young Snape, hadn't been in love with her. That would have drawn his attention from Lily - but maybe her disposition pre-Azkaban wasn't much better than what we saw of her in the series. But yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he had no liking for her whatsoever in that chapter.

She is a hottie in canon, though. Her extreme good looks are compared to Sirius's.

I presume the 'lucky' Rabastan was envied by many of his fellows. But Snape would not have been interested, because his heart was spoken for. She may also not have considered him, with his Muggle father.

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

She is a hottie in canon, though. Her extreme good looks are compared to Sirius's.

I presume the 'lucky' Rabastan was envied by many of his fellows. But Snape would not have been interested, because his heart was spoken for. She may also not have considered him, with his Muggle father.

Yeah, as Harry points out to us in DH, there is a major difference between 'desiring' someone and 'loving' them.

Snape may have desired Bellatrix (as many boys and men probably did) but his heart was Lily's alone IMO.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I respect your view also, but the thing is, Snape hated Sirius as much, if not more, due to the childhood rivalry. Sirius was Harry's beloved godfather and also admittedly arrogant, reckless, rule breaking, impertinent and in Snape's eyes, an attempted murderer to boot. And yet, we get no belittling and constant ridicule of Sirius from Snape - in fact, in the very story where Sirius supposedly tried to murder him, Snape painted James as the villain. .

He, most unfairly, paints James as one of the villains in this incident, but I don't see him as letting Sirius off the hook, at all (he describes him to Dumbledore as "capable of murder at the age of sixteen", baits him throughout OotP and taunts Harry as much about Sirius's death as James's in the card index detention in HBP)

Oh absolutely; I did not mean to imply that Snape was the only jealous person in the book. . Hermione, Ginny, and all those you mentioned did too. Jealousy was only one aspect of Snape's unrequited love; as I mentioned, that jealousy devolved into active hatred - meaning - Snape acted on his jealousy in behaving in a cruel and mean-spirited manner toward Harry, imo.

Well, I'd say that Ron's treatment of Krum was at times "cruel and mean-spirited"

And he also was a very embittered, and seemingly depressed individual who never shined in personality or character from the emotions that Lily engendered within him. To me, a less selfish consequence of love would have been shown through civil treatment of Lily's son - that is just basic for me.

Obviously that would have been better, but when you compare the person he was before Lily died and the person he was afterwards, that's still a big change.

Belittling her husband aloud before her orphan child - when he'd helped to kill her husband was also disrespectful toward Lily, imo, and something done in order for Snape to make himself feel better by venting, in my judgment.

To an extent, yes, but "making oneself feel better by venting" is something which several characters are prone to (and Harry, in particular, more or less acknowledges he does this when he blames Snape for Sirius's death).

That is what I mean by selfish - that he was not behaving in terms of what would have made Lily happy (and thus himself happy because he'd want to do that.) Instead, he appeared to think only of his own sentiments, imo.

He didn't have to protect Harry at all. The fact that he did, regardless of his own personal feelings for the boy, is to me an unselfish thing. In fact, as I see it, he's at his most acidic to Harry when Harry repeatedly persists in putting his own life at risk - I don't think that's a focus on his own sentiments.

Besides which, I think Lily would have been happier if James had stopped hexing Snape in the sixth form (the fact that he did it when she was not around so didn't "know too much about it" seems to demonstrate this), but I'd never argue that the fact that he carried on doing it means that James didn't really love her or only had a selfish love for her. People aren't perfect.

I feel he would have been way better off less self-centered with his focus broadened to include a wife or woman he loved and met later in life, after leaving the Death Eaters. Blood type should have made no difference. With his focus concentrated on a dead woman who had never loved him romantically and he'd never been able to show his emotions to, he was unable to take that step that would have opened up "life" for him, imo. Perhaps he would not marry, but he could have a girl friend that he never told Voldemort about.

I'd disagree that ones needs a romantic partner in order to be "less self-centred" or to "open up one's life".

And I think it would be more selfish, and quite shallow and fickle, if Snape could forget about Lily and move onto someone else, just like that. As I see it, many serial monogamists, who can move from one partner to another at the drop of a hat, don't really care about any of them. They don't see the individual person, they just want a girlfriend, any girlfriend, and it's about finding any old person that can meet their needs, rather than loving one individual personality.

Above all, his love for Lily is, surely unselfish, because (given that she's a. married to James and b. dead) he knows she can never give anything back in return.

Agreed. I was just speaking in terms of Angelo lording it over everyone with his self-righteousness and at the same time pursuing Isabella.

Ah, I was thinking Mariana, which to me is a better (if still very flawed)comparison. I can't see him as Angelo at all - Snape's "self-righteousness" (such as it is) has nothing to do with his supposed immunity to love or lust, he hasn't dumped an ex-girlfriend because she wasn't rich enough, he doesn't deliberately try to kill James or publically humiliate Lily or go back on his promise to save anybody, he doesn't require anything from Lily in return for helping her relatives, nor is his "love" depicted as merely lust - IMO Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort makes it absolutely clear that it is not, and that Voldemort is fatally mistaken in assuming that it is. In fact, he doesn't "pursue" Lily, at all - he loves her from afar.

I am still trying to figure out why JKR allowed Bella to be cast as such a hottie in the movies. Because if that is true to canon, it is rather odd that all of the DEs, including young Snape, hadn't been in love with her.

Surely the whole point is that true love (as opposed to lust) is about personalities, the inner being, not whether or not the person is a hottie?

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

He, most unfairly, paints James as one of the villains in this incident, but I don't see him as letting Sirius off the hook, at all (he describes him to Dumbledore as "capable of murder at the age of sixteen", baits him throughout OotP and taunts Harry as much about Sirius's death as James's in the card index detention in HBP)

I meant in a comparative sense.

Well, I'd say that Ron's treatment of Krum was at times "cruel and mean-spirited"

The distinction is that Ron had no power of authority over Krum at all.

Obviously that would have been better, but when you compare the person he was before Lily died and the person he was afterwards, that's still a big change.

Agreed. Understand that I think the change from good to evil is huge. It may seem like I discount it as nothing because I always add a "but", however, that is not the case at all. According to JKR, Snape was a very loyal and dedicated Death Eater with a full intention of remaining true to Voldemort's cause. So I fully understand what that means in terms of hardship for Snape's turn.

To an extent, yes, but "making oneself feel better by venting" is something which several characters are prone to (and Harry, in particular, more or less acknowledges he does this when he blames Snape for Sirius's death).

Agreed, but we were speaking of Snape. The fact that others exhibited a similar problem does not help his case, imo. It is also distinguishable for Snape in the method he uses - finding someone's most tender and sore spot and plunging a knife into it - like Harry's parents, the thing he desired most in the world - and Snape belitted his dad; or Tonks problems with Lupin - also attacked by Snape; or Ron's insecurity with his ability in magic as compared to his best friends - or Neville's similar insecurity and capability in his younger years in class - Snape attacked both in a very cruel manner, imo.

He didn't have to protect Harry at all. The fact that he did, regardless of his own personal feelings for the boy, is to me an unselfish thing. In fact, as I see it, he's at his most acidic to Harry when Harry repeatedly persists in putting his own life at risk - I don't think that's a focus on his own sentiments.

I did not mean to infer that every single act Snape ever did, including eating dinner was a selfish one. I was referring solely to his regard for Lily - not considering her happiness in his treatment of her loved ones.

Besides which, I think Lily would have been happier if James had stopped hexing Snape in the sixth form (the fact that he did it when she was not around so didn't "know too much about it" seems to demonstrate this), but I'd never argue that the fact that he carried on doing it means that James didn't really love her or only had a selfish love for her. People aren't perfect.

Again, I don't feel that the comparisons are helpful to Snape's case. I agree that no one is perfect and it was not my intention to say that Snape should have been. I was merely giving my opinion of the character of his love. We are not talking about Snape not disclosing something that might upset Lily. Lily knew what Snape was doing, she saw it all from the afterworld (and Snape knew this.) Snape mistreated Harry and degraded her husband before her son, imo, and that would not make Lily a happy camper. Snape knew this too, imo. Yet, he either didn't consider the notion or disregarded it, because if he bothered to think whether or not it would make Lily happy to watch the way he treated Harry, he'd have to answer no, imo. The point being: did he want to make Lily happy? Snape claimed he wished to honor her sacrifice - because he loved her - and doesn't that infer that he would want her to be happy?

I'd disagree that ones needs a romantic partner in order to be "less self-centred" or to "open up one's life".

And I think it would be more selfish, and quite shallow and fickle, if Snape could forget about Lily and move onto someone else, just like that. As I see it, many serial monogamists, who can move from one partner to another at the drop of a hat, don't really care about any of them. They don't see the individual person, they just want a girlfriend, any girlfriend, and it's about finding any old person that can meet their needs, rather than loving one individual personality.

Well we'd have to agree to disagree on this one. I would not be able to call Snape fickle if after 10 or 15 years he found a woman he loved and who returned his regard - especially since Lily was dead.

Ah, I was thinking Mariana, which to me is a better (if still very flawed)comparison. I can't see him as Angelo at all - Snape's "self-righteousness" (such as it is) has nothing to do with his supposed immunity to love or lust, he hasn't dumped an ex-girlfriend because she wasn't rich enough, he doesn't deliberately try to kill James or publically humiliate Lily or go back on his promise to save anybody, he doesn't require anything from Lily in return for helping her relatives, nor is his "love" depicted as merely lust - IMO Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort makes it absolutely clear that it is not, and that Voldemort is fatally mistaken in assuming that it is. In fact, he doesn't "pursue" Lily, at all - he loves her from afar.

...I didn't mean in that respect either. Only in terms of Snape's accusations - not his emotions for Lily.

urely the whole point is that true love (as opposed to lust) is about personalities, the inner being, not whether or not the person is a hottie?

Yes, I misspoke - I should have said infatuation.

[Harry852]

Lily never liked Severus, he liked her. But Lily loved James! And James loved her back! Lily never went out with Severus!

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Harry852

Lily never went out with Severus!

Yes, she was merely still "Best Friends" six or seven years after they met.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

In my view, there is simply no comparison between the love of that family and the obsessive, possessive and self-centered emotions Snape had for Lily - which were not returned in the least, imo.

But love is in a way obssessive in the sense that it fills the thoughts of a person who loves another. We saw that with James as well; he used the SWM to try and get a date with Lily, promising to never lay a wand on Snape if only Lily would go out with him. So he was constantly trying to think of ways to get her attention and her love, which also can be called obssessive. Only obssession is bad IMO when it colours one's thoughts to an extent that to get the thing they desired, they'd resort to anything. In that respect I thought James was more obssessive actually, because he used Snape's humiliation even to get a date with the girl he loved IMO.

I really don't think Snape was possessive or self crentered. That was one quality I think he did not have. He allowed Lily to walk away from him and into the arms of his most hated enemy in silence and watched her as she married him and was very happy with him. Possessive people and the truly obssessive people are those who cannot bear to see those who they "want" not "love" be happy with others. They are insecure people who need to keep the persons who they want to themselves in a clautrophobic atmosphere all the time driving themselves and the other person crazy by constantly doubting them and their love, for, the obssessive person's love not being true, they are also doubtful about the love of the other person. I just don't think Snape was like this. And if he were self-centered I think he would have stopped loving Lily a long time back.

Snape had emotions for Lily. I just cannot see in which way they were harming Lily, for he never forced those emotions on her IMO.

The entire post is my opinion only.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

He allowed Lily to walk away from him and into the arms of his most hated enemy in silence and watched her as she married him and was very happy with him.

I don't see how he allowed her to walk away from him. There really wasn't anything he could have done to stop her, short of violence or dark magic. And I'm not so sure he watched in silence since he hexed James every chance he got during their seventh year, which was when James and Lily started dating.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I really don't think Snape was possessive or self crentered. That was one quality I think he did not have. He allowed Lily to walk away from him and into the arms of his most hated enemy in silence and watched her as she married him and was very happy with him. Possessive people and the truly obssessive people are those who cannot bear to see those who they "want" not "love" be happy with others. They are insecure people who need to keep the persons who they want to themselves in a clautrophobic atmosphere all the time driving themselves and the other person crazy by constantly doubting them and their love, for, the obssessive person's love not being true, they are also doubtful about the love of the other person. I just don't think Snape was like this. And if he were self-centered I think he would have stopped loving Lily a long time back.

I was actually speaking about after Lily died. . We don't have any canon about the period prior to her death to reach a conclusion in that regard, imo.

But to address your point, I respectfully disagree with the idea that Snape allowed Lily to walk away. In my view, he hexed James at every opportunity in 7th year because he was jealous that Lily and James had gotten together. (Note he wasn't hexing Sirius at every opportunity in 7th year and he considered him an attempted murderer.) After Hogwarts, they all went their separate ways and we have no canon about what Snape may or may not have done, imo.

Snape had emotions for Lily. I just cannot see in which way they were harming Lily, for he never forced those emotions on her IMO.

Well again, I referred to after Lily had died. Looking down from the afterworld, imo, she would not be happy with Snape's behavior toward her son - or with the other children.

The thing is, I feel Snape had contempt for Harry Potter from the start. JKR wrote that when Dumbledore told him Harry had survived,

"with a tiny jerk of the head, Snape seemed to flick off an irksome fly."

That is the way Jo writes contempt. She did the same with Voldemort in HBP; when Dumbledore told him that there was another man named Tom working at the Leaky Cauldron,

"Riddle gave an irritable twitch, as though trying to displace an irksome fly"

Dumbeldore later explained to Harry: I hope you noticed Riddle's reaction when I mentioned that another shared his first name, Tom? There he showed his contempt for anything that tied him to other people, anything that made him ordinary.

So in the same way, Snape felt contempt for Harry, merely because he was the son of the man who Lily preferred. Snape was never able to overcome that contempt, imo, and that is why I feel that his love for Lily was selfish - he couldn't overcome it despite his supposedly strong feelings for Lily. I feel that is because he only considered Lily in terms of himself, his own happiness, not hers.

In HBP, Dumbledore said that unrequited love can sap one's magical power due to the attendent despair. So perhaps he was struggling in that regard also, unable to access his full ability as a wizard due to his unrequited emotions. That would have caused him to have jealousy for Harry as well as James, but for a separate reason; namely, that Harry proved himself to be an incredible wizard from the gate - defeating the dragon and Diary Riddle. Snape didn't like that Harry might have fame and be popular like his father was - which is why he also disparaged them both the Quidditch prowess. Not because of the Quidditch or their grand feats - but rather because I feel Snape saw it as giving them power and making them impressive, something he wanted for himself. So his reasoning I don't feel was solid here and I feel that Lily would be unhappy with his behavior and actions - especially toward her son.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

And I think it would be more selfish, and quite shallow and fickle, if Snape could forget about Lily and move onto someone else, just like that. As I see it, many serial monogamists, who can move from one partner to another at the drop of a hat, don't really care about any of them. They don't see the individual person, they just want a girlfriend, any girlfriend, and it's about finding any old person that can meet their needs, rather than loving one individual personality.

People do move on as the years pass after a lost love. It's healthy. Let's use an example: while it may have been romantic for Heathcliff not to move on, it was not healthy for him or those around him. Healthcliff was also an embittered emotional cripple with a toxic personality. Obviously we wouldn't have had a story had he made peace with his situation. But it does make him far less romantic in my eyes.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

I don't see how he allowed her to walk away from him. There really wasn't anything he could have done to stop her, short of violence or dark magic. And I'm not so sure he watched in silence since he hexed James every chance he got during their seventh year, which was when James and Lily started dating.

Snape could have easily used force, nagged her, like James did for a date, tried to meet her, waylay her and try and convince her about the evilness of dating James Potter. Or like you said he could have used dark magic or violence. That was what I meant by allowed. He never does, which shows not only the love Snape had for her but the respect too IMO.

Yes Snape may have hexed James at every opportunity he got, and I think he may have got a few hexes in their 7th year when James would have been alone on his Head Boy duties; but I am also sure those would not have gone unpunished; "defended themselevs" was what Sirius or Remus said, and for every hex Snape may have got on James, he would have received a few not only from James who would not have sat there silently receiving those hexes, but also from the other Marauders later as well IMO.

There is no record really of Snape winning any hex war against the Marauders (4 on 1 was what Snape said in HBP) and since JKR has given the SWM as the yardstick on the Snape/Marauders interaction, I am sure Snape came off badly in every meeting.

[Moriath]

We're stirring into dangerous territory again. You know which discussion I don't want to see because it leads to certain doom. Repeat with me...

Snape vs. Marauders - who was meaaaaaaaaaaner? and its variation Did James deserve Lily more than Snape?

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Harry852

Lily never liked Severus, he liked her. But Lily loved James! And James loved her back! Lily never went out with Severus!

She liked him enough to admit to being his best friend, however, their friendship was beginning to end even before he called her mudblood.

Depends on what you mean by 'going out'. At a boarding school such as Hogwarts a date could be as simple as walking to Hogsmeade or even a couple of swots studying in the Library! (Remember we never see H/G or R/H actually going on a date, do we?) Wild speculation, of course!

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

That was what I meant by allowed. He never does, which shows not only the love Snape had for her but the respect too IMO.

He didn't use force because it wouldn't have worked. It's like saying he did a good thing because he didn't hurt her. Good people don't resort to violence. It isn't their nature. Not resorting to violence isn't considered a virtue since violence is unthinkable to most. Look this is the wrong thread for this, but all James did was flirt about going out with Lily. He didn't nag her.

And Snape did complain about James to Lily on more than one occasion, or she wouldn't have thought that he was obsessed with the Marauders.

Lily didn't want to date Snape. She just viewed him as a friend. There was no effort or coercion he could have applied successfully to change how she viewed him. His only somewhat viable option would have been to give up his aspirations to become a DE, stop practicing dark magic, stop acting like a bigot, and find less nasty friends who aren't aspiring to become DEs. Lily literally laid out for him what he needed to do, and he didn't pay attention to her concerns. And even if he had done that, it might only have led her to continue the friendship, and not consider him a boyfriend.

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Snape could have easily used force, nagged her, like James did for a date, tried to meet her, waylay her and try and convince her about the evilness of dating James Potter. Or like you said he could have used dark magic or violence. That was what I meant by allowed. He never does, which shows not only the love Snape had for her but the respect too IMO.

Yes Snape may have hexed James at every opportunity he got, and I think he may have got a few hexes in their 7th year when James would have been alone on his Head Boy duties; but I am also sure those would not have gone unpunished; "defended themselevs" was what Sirius or Remus said, and for every hex Snape may have got on James, he would have received a few not only from James who would not have sat there silently receiving those hexes, but also from the other Marauders later as well IMO.

There is no record really of Snape winning any hex war against the Marauders (4 on 1 was what Snape said in HBP) and since JKR has given the SWM as the yardstick on the Snape/Marauders interaction, I am sure Snape came off badly in every meeting.

James did not use "force" on Lily though, or violence. He attacked Snape because he was showing off. He did say he'd promise to leave Snape alone if Lily dated him, but that still is not "force".

We have evidence of several incidence where Snape's memories begin "in the middle" of conversations with Lily. We know that he openly protested against Potter, we know that he apparently had a running monolog that Remus was a werewolf, we know that even after he'd been sworn to secrecy he was feeding the secret to Lily (who wasn't buying it, BTW), and we have Snape saying "I won't let you" to Lily. That certainly sounds "forceful" to me. Now, admittedly he did back down from the statement when Lily forcefully said back to him "Let me?" and we see Snape confess that Potter liked her, that he didn't want Potter to make a fool of her. How often did Severus "waylay" his best friend, nag her about James Potter and his friends?

We get to see minutes of a friendship that lasted "years", ended in their 5th year at Hogwarts, and years more pass after that. I'm not sure how one concludes that Snape never did specific things in all of that time and James Potter either did or would have, when we do not know whether anything at all occurred except what canon has told us.

I'll leave off anything about the Marauder's because I really do want to stay focused to the James/Lily/Snape dynamic.

Do you believe that the jealousy that Snape displayed to his "best friend" i.e. "non-girlfriend" somehow just went away after she ended the "friendship"? We're told that Snape loved Lily, we're told that he loved her to the point of being absolutely willing to allow her husband (his rival for Lily's affection) and her innocent child be murdered yet he didn't stop in begging (Voldemort/Dumbledore) that her life be spared.

To me, this is where the comparisons of "who loved Lily more" fall to pieces.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

Do you believe that the jealousy that Snape displayed to his "best friend" i.e. "non-girlfriend" somehow just went away after she ended the "friendship"? We're told that Snape loved Lily, we're told that he loved her to the point of being absolutely willing to allow her husband (his rival for Lily's affection) and her innocent child be murdered yet he didn't stop in begging (Voldemort/Dumbledore) that her life be spared.

My impression of canon is that they didn't go away at Hogwarts. However, once Snape left Hogwarts, I would imagine he'd try to suppress his emotions for Lily and put his focus in his work as a Death Eater. But it is also possible that he did not. In any case, when he took the prophecy to Voldemort and the Potters were targeted, his emotions for her were still there, either as they had been or resurfacing.

I do feel that Snape had given up on having Lily once she'd married and had a child - she was clearly in love with someone else. However, because they were fighting directly against one another and he never moved to try to save her from the daily danger she was in from his group - I feel he'd become vindictive about it at that point. I feel this is what happened in SWM at the end when he called Lily a Mudblood. She spoke only to James throughout and by the end, Snape's anger was directed at her in addition to the others. Well by the same token, I think Snape would feel that same type of anger at her ultimately marrying and having a child with his enemy and get to feeling like if both were killed as Order members, it was no less than they deserved - Lily in particular for ending their friendship.

But once the family was targeted by Voldemort, I feel Snape saw an opportunity to be with Lily again. I think that overcame his feelings of vindictiveness and he felt that with James and Harry out of the picture, he could somehow find a way to be with her again - especially if he was the 'savior' in the situation. It was a tricky business because he'd been the one to get the ball rolling toward having her family killed. But from Snape's point of view, I think he'd believe that because he hadn't known the prophecy was intended for the Potters, Lily would concede that his attempt to undo what he'd done made up for his having had a part in the death of her family.

To me, the bottom line is that Snape knew the dark lord would never give up on killing Harry. Dumbledore said he was obsessed with doing so and I think Snape realized that. So for Snape, the only thing he had to do was ensure that Lily survived. I believe Snape knew that James would go down fighting before his wife and child were killed - and I think he felt Lily might also, which is why he asked Voldemort to spare her. There are numerous freezing and knock you unconscious spells Voldemort could use against her while killing the husband and child. So I think Snape felt there was a good chance Lily might survive. However, he understood that things could go wrong with the two Order members fighting Voldemort for their child's life and I feel that is what ultimately drove him to Dumbledore.

Snape never said he regretted delivering the prophecy when he was on the hill and I feel Dumbledore noted this. I feel Snape became truly fearful that Lily might die in the scuffle and hoped that Dumbledore would afford her extra protection. Again, he knew Voldemort would not give up, so his going to Dumbledore was not a means of actually stopping the dark lord from seeking to kill the family, only a means of attempting to protect Lily from a negative outcome, imo. I think Dumbledore's disgust made Snape realize that the elder wizard would only protect the whole family, not just Lily, but I feel Snape still trusted the fact that the dark lord might be successful in killing Harry anyway because the dark lord was winning the war at that point, despite Dumbledore. So Snape's request was merely a double means of protection for Lily against what would be certain charges against the family by Voldemort, imo. What was promised from Snape's point of view, was that whatever protection Dumbledore afforded to the Potters, he would foremost keep Lily safe in exchange for Snape doing 'anything' Dumbledore wanted, imo. That is why I feel Snape accused Dumbledore of having promised to 'keep her safe' after she was killed (DH TPT).

Still, according to Dumbledore, Snape had placed his trust in Voldemort and he didn't give up hope that the dark lord might spare Lily pursuant to his request. My impression in that regard comes from DH-TPT where Dumbledore accused Snape of placing his trust in the wrong person (Voldemort). Consequently, Snape lost Lily to the man she'd preferred forever as they were sent to the afterworld together by Voldemort and at that point, Snape said he wished he were dead - only then did Dumbledore bring up the issue of remorse - asking Snape if he was finally sorry for having taken the prophecy to Voldemort in the first place. I believe Snape was - but only because it resulted in Lily's death, taking her away from his reach forever.

From a psychological standpoint - there was a time period, perhaps only a week, wherein Snape understood that he might be able to successfully have Lily spared and I think that his emotions for her increased several fold during that time. I think he felt that she would be devastated at her loss and need someone - and he would be there as her savior. Prior to her death, it is unclear to me whether Snape intended to actually change sides for good if the outcome went as he believed it might (Voldemort's relentless effort to kill Harry resulting in the death of the husband and son), but it is possible that he even thought to remain on the good side if it meant that he could have Lily, imo. That is because he'd taken the first step in treachery toward Voldemort and after doing so, more steps come easier, imo.

To me, there was no huge decision for Snape to make in the aftermath of Lily's death. He lost her to her husband for good and Voldemort had been dusted - at least temporarily. But his hopes to be with Lily were utterly dashed and he was at rock bottom, declaring he wished he were dead (which is a plot hole, so we'll move along, ). Dumbledore offered him the opportunity to do something to honor the sacrifice Lily had made. I don't believe that Snape cared one whit about that sacrifice in terms of it having saved the Potter baby; but what did Snape have left? No Voldemort, no Lily - only Dumbledore, Azkaban, Death or a life on the run. Clearly, Dumbledore was the best of those choices, imo. So that is why I feel Snape took Dumbledore up on his offer to protect Lily's son. For Snape, it gave no meaning to her death at that point, imo, that she'd died for her son, but upon Dumbledore revealing that Voldemort would surely return, it gave meaning to Snape's life to help take out the man who had betrayed him and killed Lily, imo.

Now I think as time passed, Dumbledore worked diligently with Snape; he'd tried to do the same with Voldemort as a youngster. The distinction was that Snape had some compassion, whereas Voldemort had none. So I think Snape finally did come to change his view and finally did come to see that Lily's death in sacrifice was a thing to be honored - perhaps even more important than taking out her killer. But taking out her killer was what Lily had lived to do as an Order member; what she wanted all along, independent of Harry - so it is also possible that Snape adopted that view as well, taking up the fight on her behalf as well as his own. imo.