Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[ignisia]

I think the arrogance of the Gryffindors both in the Marauder era and Harry's time wasn't exactly due to their beliefs on blood, but their beliefs on everything. It seems a common Gryffindor attribute that they always consider themselves on the right side without thinking about the subtleties of the situation. Because they have more tolerant views on blood status and because, well, they're Gryffindors, it seems they feel entitled to think Slytherins lower life forms, as opposed to confused and misled children. IMO, of course.

Tying this back to Severus, however, we see that this is not always the case. The insults thrown at him in SWM made no mention of his blood-beliefs, and instead were jabs at his appearance.

[The_Green_Woods]

Exactly! And by doing so they made themselves as bigoted as the Slytherins they looked down upon as bigoted IMO.

Lily was the only one to see outside of that and she remained friends with Snape for a very long time IMO. Snape on his part never saw the muggleborn, mudblood or a Gryffindor. He only saw Lily, his friend, who he grew to love IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

I am a little confused at the latest point being addressed. Gryffindors (like all of the other students, including Slytherins) generalized. The Slytherins disliked all Gryffindors and visa versa on principle (HBP the Slug Club). The Slytherins were doing it also (and included both groups generalizing the beliefs and attributes of the others I would agree would likely play into it as an underlying factor). But this was held out to be a rivalry, not a phenomenon of two-way prejudice based on individual belief systems, imo. It would be like saying that the Aurors were behaving in a bigoted manner for feeling they were on the right side and looking down upon Death Eaters, imo. However, I feel what some of the Slytherins were doing at Hogwarts, namely calling others Mudblood, was behaving in a forthright bigoted manner.

I think Lily truly believed that her friend was on a dark path that would lead him to a devastating end. That is why, imo, she attempted to counsel him in that regard. However, Lily seeing his beliefs and viewpoint as harmful and injurious to himself and others does not indicate that she was being arrogant, self righteous or showing prejudice against him, imo.

It is normal for one to look down on the behavior and speech that the Slytherins, including Snape, were practicing. It is like we look down on thieves for their actions. Looking down on one's actions does not mean looking down on the person as a human being, imo. (And I am not speaking of personal enemies which is distinct). So I don't think Lily was looking down on Snape personally, it was his acts and speech she was looking down on, imo, and I feel she was right to do so because showing approval of it or ignoring it would not have been helpful in trying to get Snape to see the light.

[DigificWriter]

Jumping back in here to address the discussion about Snape's insensitivity towards Lily's heartbreak at Petunia's bitterness. The thing that needs to be kept in mind with regards to Snape is that, ultimately, his attitude towards Petunia was a direct result of the deterioration in the relationship between his parents, and, most likely, his father's attitude towards him and his mother because they were wizards, and was as ingrained into him as the House-based prejudices that existed at Hogwarts and the subtle prejudices that had begun to destroy the very foundations of the Wizarding world as a whole by the time Harry's story began (and which aided Voldemort in his first and second rise to power). I don't think Lily quite realized how ingrained any of those prejudices were until the infamous 'Mudblood incident', when everything converged and really hit her full in the face instead of just brushing against her.

Regarding Lily and her feelings for James, I think it's important to keep in mind that, at the time of the 'Mudblood incident', whatever attraction she felt towards him was in its infancy, and had not even blossomed into full awareness yet, since it took another full school year (and apparently part of the next) for her to consent to go out with him, and started to fall in love with him. I firmly believe that, had Severus not allowed his own insecurities - as well as the influence of his Slytherin classmates - to stay his hand, Lily would have eventually come to regret her harsh and angry words towards him and given him the chance to prove that he truly valued their friendship, something that she had apparently begun to doubt by that time. Unfortunately, we know that he wasn't ever able to overcome his insecurities and reject the influence of his Slytherin classmates, and eventually joined many of them as part of Voldemort's DEs. We also know that Lily's rejection seems to have been the catalyst for transforming Severus into the bitter man he became as an adult.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

I don't think Lily quite realized how ingrained any of those prejudices were until the infamous 'Mudblood incident', when everything converged and really hit her full in the face instead of just brushing against her.

I don't think so. This would have been the case had Lily never knew what Snape's habits were or if Snape was hiding his true character from her or he was friendly with her on false pretences. The when Snape called her a mudblood, she could have been shocked, surprised to know that she really did not know the boy she had thought was her best friend IMO.

That was not the case IMO.

Lily knew all about Snape including his Slytherin friends and that he had a desire to join Voldemort. So, I don't think Snape was hiding anything from her that would have shocked her into sudden understanding that day IMO.

I firmly believe that, had Severus not allowed his own insecurities - as well as the influence of his Slytherin classmates - to stay his hand, Lily would have eventually come to regret her harsh and angry words towards him and given him the chance to prove that he truly valued their friendship, something that she had apparently begun to doubt by that time.

I don't think there was a chance for Snape at all, because I think Lily made up her mind to drop Snape and it was a deliberate decision, the breakup was not something that could not be avoided, but one Lily chose deliberately. The werewolf incident shows Snape hanging on to a friendship Lily did not feel for him at that time. The SWM finished it off IMO.

[DigificWriter]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't think so. This would have been the case had Lily never knew what Snape's habits were or if Snape was hiding his true character from her or he was friendly with her on false pretences. The when Snape called her a mudblood, she could have been shocked, surprised to know that she really did not know the boy she had thought was her best friend IMO.

That was not the case IMO.

Lily knew all about Snape including his Slytherin friends and that he had a desire to join Voldemort. So, I don't think Snape was hiding anything from her that would have shocked her into sudden understanding that day IMO.



I don't think there was a chance for Snape at all, because I think Lily made up her mind to drop Snape and it was a deliberate decision, the breakup was not something that could not be avoided, but one Lily chose deliberately. The werewolf incident shows Snape hanging on to a friendship Lily did not feel for him at that time. The SWM finished it off IMO.

You misunderstand what I meant. When we're young, we can be aware of things without them truly affecting or 'touching' us. Lily may have been conscious of Severus's attitudes and the influence that his Slytherin classmates were having on him, but, until the 'Mudblood incident', they had never really touched her personally, as he had always treated her differently, almost as if there was a barrier between their friendship and the rest of the school. That barrier broke when he called HER a Mudblood. Snape's memory of the werewolf incident shows that the strength of their friendship was faltering, but JKR subsequently demonstrates that the fissures that had begun to appear, as well as its total collapse, could have been avoided. She has also demonstrated that Snape was deeply insecure, and that he hid those insecurities behind a reliance on his mother's attitudes about pureblood superiority - which had been bolstered by his own negative interactions with his father - a deep-set interest in the Dark Arts, and his hatred of and rivaly with James and Sirius.

I'd like to compare the angry words exchanged between Lily and Severus the night of the DADA O.W.L.s and the argument between Harry and Lupin that occurs in Number 12 Grimmauld Place. In both instances, things are said in anger, and, in both cases, what is said marked a turning point between what had been and what was. The significant difference between both situation is that, in the one, the damage which had been done was never repaired, while, in the other, it was. Lily, for all of her reservations and concerns, remained friends with Severus even as her awareness of the dangers his attitudes and interaction with his Slytherin classmates were presenting, and the 'Mudblood incident' shattered the illusion that their friendship was strong enough to withstand said dangers. Even then, though, the damage was reversible, as was the damage that was done by Harry's angry words towards Lupin and Lupin's loss of control that resulted in him hexing Harry and blasting him across the kitchen in Number 12 Grimmauld Place. However, due to Snape's insecurities, the damage wasn't repaired, and he lost the friendship of the one person who saw him for who he was and loved him in spite of his flaws. This loss was a significant factor in him becoming the bitter man he was as an adult, but was also the driving force behind the great sacrifice of atonement he made in striving, for most of his adult life, to make recompense for the damage he had caused and the harm that had befallen her because of his weaknesses and insecurities. As demonstrated, Snape was certainly strong enough to have stood up against Voldemort prior to Lily's death, but was clearly so haunted by his insecurities and weakness that he could not muster the courage to do so. It took her death to shake him out of his torpor and prod him into demonstrating the courage he'd always had somewhere deep within himself, but that he'd long since lost.

[PerfectDystopia]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Slytherin was all about being superior because they were purebloods and proud of it and so they looked down upon others. Gryffindors also looked down upon Slytherin and thought them filth, because they did not think only purebloods were superior and by thinking like this, they too exhibited a bigotry that was equally bad IMO. They shunned the Slytherins and lumped all of them together and gave them no chance. Except Lily, we don't see any Gryffindor/Slytherin friendship. (If we did I forgot ).

I think there's a huge difference between this supposed "bigotry" that Gryffindor had and what Slytherin had.
Slytherin straight out proclaims "we want purebloods." That is a huge slap in the face for anyone who isn't a pureblood. That is bigotry, which means that is a house based on bigotry.
Gryffindor only proclaims that it wants "courage, chivalry, daringness, and nerve". It seems like if you have that, you are in. The Gryffindor requirements aren’t discriminatory. Anyone of any blood status can be brave and daring.
So if there's any "bigotry" in Gryffindor, it comes down that rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin, which I think it comes down to 3 levels.

The first level is that it is natural that different school groups form a rivalry between each other. I think this is apparent in any school. Being in a group and competing with another group brings a sense of unity in that group. I think that this occurrence is harmless in most cases.

The second level is that the personality clash between houses. If you were to stereotype the Gryffindor house, it would be someone loud, bold, brash, reckless, and action-y. And if you did the same to Slytherin, it would be someone quiet and calculating and resourceful. Most the time, these personalities don't get along. I think that's fine. I mean, you have every right to dislike someone for their personality, granted that you actually know what their personality is like.

It is the third level is what causes us to question who the real “bigot” is. We all know that Slytherins stereotypically are prejudice, and that Gryffindors don't like Slytherins. While I am not sure this was intended or not, some people got the idea that Gryffindor was supposed to be tolerant, and when we have scenes of Gryffindors not being tolerant, those people proceed to get mad. But wait!...who decided that Gryffindor was "tolerant"? Just because Gryffindor didn't like Slytherin's apparent intolerance, doesn't mean Gryffindors were all for tolerance of everything (especially intolerance). It is all about shades of grey. Of course not all Slytherins are like "I HATE MUDBLOODS AND MUGGLES AND HALF-BREEDS!”, so of course not all Gryffindors are like "WE SHOULD BE FRIENDS AND TOLERANT OF EACH OTHER!!"
It is kinda like how I don't like racist people. Is that a bad thing? I am being intolerant of intolerance. Is that self-righteous? I believe, no. Standing up against something you disprove of doesn’t make you self-righteous. Using double standards and doing what you enemies are doing might be. That’s what I think is important in this situation. Gryffindors believe the extent of Slytherin intolerance for Muggles and Mudbloods was wrong, period. That’s it. Now to be self-righteous, the Gryffindors would have to be using double standards and being just as prejudice as the Slytherins. The Gryffindors would be self-righteous if they were against “bullying” because of course, we have clear examples of Gryffindors bullying. But there is that truth that there is a difference between bullying and being racist. Both are horrible, but they aren’t the same. The Gryffindors therefore aren’t violating a double standard. And while some Gryffindors displayed a sense of dislike for Muggles, it was never to the extreme that Slytherins have displayed. So I don’t really think Gryffindors have acted like Slytherins. Thus, I do not believe Gryffindor is self-righteous and arrogant. They disliked exactly to their dislike. I believe Gryffindor wasn’t perfect, and flawed like any other house. (And for the record, I hate Gryffindor, anyways.)

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

That barrier broke when he called HER a Mudblood.

Yes! He must have shocked her by using a swear word she had heard him using at others until then. But I would have also thought Lily was mature enough to understand the situation when that word was uttered. I think that is important too. Snape said it when he was extremely humiliated himself and I do think Lily was not so young that she could not understand that. And she told him what she thought of him for talking to her as well. Snivellus, she called him and told him to wash his underwear IMO. Lily was not a naive girl, who did not know what she was doing IMO.

She was percerptive enough to be friends with a Snape at 10 years old, looking far beyond his background, his parents, his clothing and his awkward mannerisms. In School, she was stubbnorn and strong enough to keep that friendship even though they were in Houses that were enemies IMO.

I don't think she was unaware of what she was or Snape was or even James was doing. She knew she was special to Snape, she knew he would never call her that, jsut as she would never call him Snivellus. But when he called her a name that she could not accept, she had a presence of mind and was cool enough (another indication that the friendship was all but over) to call him a name she probably never did until then. Probably even fought for him when the Marauders called him that and laughed IMO.

So it was not as if Lily was untouched by everything. I think she knew and she took SWM to do what she had been planning to for some time. Mudblood gave her that opportunity. it was not a revelation into Snape's character, it was an excuse to break off Snape's friendship IMO.

I'd like to compare the angry words exchanged between Lily and Severus the night of the DADA O.W.L.s and the argument between Harry and Lupin that occurs in Number 12 Grimmauld Place.

I think there was an element of caring in the Harry/Lupin exchange that IMO was missing in the Lily/Snape one. Harry cared for Lupin and was willing to fight with him to send him back IMO.

Lily is on the other hand very composed. She is breaking off a friendship that has lasted over 6 years and she was like raising an eyebrow, looking in contempt, speaking coldly?! to a boy who was anguished he had made a mistake and was willing to sleep outside Gryffindor Tower to see her and apologise, even when she had already called him Snivellus and told him his underwwear was dirty and that he should wash it. She had already paid him back for the comment and still he was there wanting to apologise IMO.

The Snape Lily exchange was very cold and formal from Lily's side and a bewildered anguish from Snape's side IMO.

posted by PerfectDystopia
It is kinda like how I don't like racist people. Is that a bad thing? I am being intolerant of intolerance

No! Of course not, but just because I hate racists that makes me a great person? Is that the only qualification for judging me? I don;t need to have any oather qualities? I can simply get away because I don't call nonwhites names? Gryffindor consisted of people who were good, bad and ugly. Yes, they did not say "mudblood". But that cannot be their claim to fame IMO.

Gryffindor was exactly like the Slytherin in their anti prejudice IMO. They thought themselves better simply because they did not say muggleborns are mudbloods. Most of Slytherin was all about pure blood! Most of Gryffindor was about how they would never call muggleborns names IMO.

Some of Slytherin was otherwise, like Andromeda and Regulus and Snape once he turned to the light. Some of Gryffindor was like Peter IMO.

But I think both Houses thought they had the best quality, worthy quality, the most redeeming quality. Slytherin for pureblood pride and Gryffindor for its apparent tolerance. Both were equally bigoted in different ways IMO.

[LyraLovegood]

Tolerance is not the primary characteristic of Gryffindor; courtesy, chivalry, daring & nerve are. There is nothing wrong with being intolerant of racism (e.g. Slytherin's anti-muggleborn racism); there is nothing wrong, imo, with discriminating against cowards, fools, or layabouts. One could say that all the criteria of the Sorting Process are discriminatory in this matter: no cowards in Gryffindor, no fools in Ravenclaw, no lazy layabouts in Hufflepuff. But racism is an extreme form of discrimination which has no justification.

That said, I do not see how James and Sirius bullying Severus qualifies as courageous and chivalrous. I can understand why they would despise him for being a racist, but SWM is not framed in those terms; they are hateful to him mainly for appearance, apparently, the long, skinny, greasy haired pointy-nosed loser in their eyes. Lily's defense of him is more characteristic of the qualities that are ascribed to Gryffindor house. And added to that is Lily's tolerance; she does not discriminate against halfbloods, and it is Snape's bigotry toward muggleborns that finally strains her loyalty to Severus beyond sustainability.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Yes! He must have shocked her by using a swear word she had heard him using at others until then. But I would have also thought Lily was mature enough to understand the situation when that word was uttered. I think that is important too. Snape said it when he was extremely humiliated himself and I do think Lily was not so young that she could not understand that. And she told him what she thought of him for talking to her as well. Snivellus, she called him and told him to wash his underwear IMO. Lily was not a naive girl, who did not know what she was doing IMO.

Snape did not use a swear word, he used a racial insult. A disgustingly unforgivable racial insult IMO, and his underwear did need washing. It's not that difficult to keep clean at Hogwarts. He should have tried harder. I know he was hurt and I'm willing to admit that his stress level was sky high but that did not give him leeway to insult Lily like that. And if I had a friend who did use a swear word or profanity to me we would not be friends anymore, so I'm not willing to excuse him on the grounds that he thought it was a swear word. One is as bad as the other in my opinion, For what it's worth. Swearing is a pet hate of mine, I think the world would be a lot better off with some censoring of profanity, it's disgusting. Rant over

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

And then I think she fell for James and I don't think it was his being in Gryffindor that captivated her. I would feel very disappointed if it was. I don't even think it was James's qualities or the fact he would not even use that M word (mudblood) that Lily liked. Had Lily liked all that, she would have never been friends with Snape at all in the first place.

And she told him what she thought of him for talking to her as well. Snivellus, she called him and told him to wash his underwear IMO. Lily was not a naive girl, who did not know what she was doing IMO.

I don't think she was unaware of what she was or Snape was or even James was doing. She knew she was special to Snape, she knew he would never call her that, jsut as she would never call him Snivellus. But when he called her a name that she could not accept, she had a presence of mind and was cool enough (another indication that the friendship was all but over) to call him a name she probably never did until then. Probably even fought for him when the Marauders called him that and laughed IMO.

So it was not as if Lily was untouched by everything. I think she knew and she took SWM to do what she had been planning to for some time. Mudblood gave her that opportunity. it was not a revelation into Snape's character, it was an excuse to break off Snape's friendship IMO.

I respect your view, however, I don't understand your opinion of Lily's character. I mean if she was cold, formal, wanted the friendship to end, untouched by everything "Snape", and planning to end the relationship - well why would a girl like that need an excuse to end the friendship? Wouldn't someone as cold-hearted and callous as that, simply break it off?

Another point you made was that your felt Lily decided on James and that is why she ended her friendship with Snape. But then you said she wasn't interested in James for any of his qualities, or the fact that he was not prejudice, or because he was in Gryffindor...so why do you feel that she decided on James and felt she had to end her friendship with Snape if she liked nothing about James?

Lily is on the other hand very composed. She is breaking off a friendship that has lasted over 6 years and she was like raising an eyebrow, looking in contempt, speaking coldly?! to a boy who was anguished he had made a mistake and was willing to sleep outside Gryffindor Tower to see her and apologise, even when she had already called him Snivellus and told him his underwwear was dirty and that he should wash it. She had already paid him back for the comment and still he was there wanting to apologise IMO.

The Snape Lily exchange was very cold and formal from Lily's side and a bewildered anguish from Snape's side IMO

I respect your view; however in context, the word Mudblood was not just a racial slur. Certainly it indicated that Lily was inferior due to her birthright and that she was 'filthy' on account of it. However, remember too that it was being aggressively said in those days by those who were in agreement with a man that was considered 'evil' (Voldemort) - and his ideology was that Muggle-borns should be supressed based solely on the fact of their being born to Muggles. In light of Snape's dark interests, the people he hung around and his earlier stated viewpoint (dark magic against others was 'just a laugh'), there was a lot more power and meaning behind his use of the word "Mudblood" than just saying something mean-spirited and insensitive, imo. Again moving back into the context, Snape had said to James, 'I don't need help from a filthy little Mudblood, like her'. So not only is there the fact that he referred to her as inferior due her Muggle birth, and that what lay behind it was an entire movement to see those of her birth subjugated, but Snape spoke to another person as if her attempt to help him was without any value or worth merely because of her birth. That Snape did not speak to her, when she was standing right there next to him and purportedly his friend, but rather spoke in terms of a 'third person' who wasn't present, rendered her value even more meaningless, imo.

So if one considers the context in full, Lily was standing there feeling utterly humiliated and degraded, not just by what Snape had said and all of the meaning that went with those words, but also because at least four people present knew that she was friends with Snape. So they are witness to the way Snape is treating her and as far as they know, he treats her that way all the time. If she said nothing in return, it would be as if she allowed herself to be degraded and humiliated in that way by her friend all of the time and still remained friends with him - like she agreed that she was deserving of that type of treatment and it is all right with her.

So that is why it would be important to Lily, from her point of view, to say something in response and stand up for herself. She wants to make it clear that she does not allow someone who she is friendly with speak to her in that way all the time and she just takes it and keeps going like it is "okay" - because it is not okay with her. Do you see what I mean? So electing to call Snape Snivellus would be particularly meaningful for her in that situation because we were told that not many people knew she and Snape were friendly - but we know the Marauders knew and so Lily adopted a term that she knew they would understand was truly retaliatory in nature - that is, she truly had not been friends with someone for five years who had been treating her in this manner. I hope that made sense! . And telling Snape to wash his underwear was a comment more relevant to the others who had been watching because it stated what many of them were likely thinking anyway upon sighting his dingey underpants. But it has the same significance: I will not be humiliated and degraded by a person I am attempting to pubicly defend. So I saw her comments as an attempt to stand up for herself in light of the degrading comment.

Thus, I do not feel Lily saw Snape calling her that, considering all it means, as a mere "mistake" that a simple apology would cure. And that is the attitude that Snape had when he spoke to her that evening. He began saying he hadn't meant to call her that - but that was not the point. The point was that he would call anyone that because if he did, he was adopting a view that she was inferior and also in those days, adopting a word that had come to mean much more - Voldemort's ideolody that those of Mugglebirth should be subjugated. And finally, that Lily accepted her role as an inferior Mudblood that should be subjugated because she would wish to be friends with someone who felt that way about her - as if she agreed with the idea as long as it was not spoken out loud. Do you see what I mean? So what Snape had to feel sorry about was not that he used the word, but why he was using the word - and reject that entire ideology. At that point, an apology would have a lot of meaning. So instead of saying that he didn't mean to call her that, the apology that would be meaningful, imo, would be: "I don't feel that way about those of mugglebirth and they are not inferior and should not be subjugated and Voldemort and all of my friends are wrong about that and I have been wrong to say it because it makes it appear as if I believe in all of that too". But Snape didn't say any of that or anything like it in DH TPT.

I felt Lily was portrayed as a sensitive, kind and fair person in general. However, on the evening she broke off her friendship with Snape, she was behaving in a colder and formal manner, but that was because of what I have said above and in addition to that, she believed that Snape was planning to join Voldemort - that he truly saw her and people of her birth as inferior, truly felt that using dark magic against others was just a laugh and all right and would be willing to go along with "you-know-who" and the nefarious deeds he was using to gain power. And it would not matter to her if Snape planned to join that night, the next day or after graduation, the point was that she did not wish to associate with a person who had made up their minds to follow that path and I feel she believed Snape had done just that.

In terms of personal autonomy, Lily had a right to determine for herself, independent of Snape, what she wished to do, imo. I feel she had suspected he was on that path and that is why she had attempted to help him. I think Snape having told her that he felt using dark magic against others was just a laugh had a very large impact on her and the fact that he'd done it in front of her that very day himself, only supported her belief that he did not distinguish between light and dark activities. So that is why a simple apology would not suffice for her, imo, because the words "I'm sorry" were meaningless if they only included remorse for having allowed a word to slip out and could only be meaningful if they included a rejection of the underlying ideology, imo.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Except Lily, we don't see any Gryffindor/Slytherin friendship. (If we did I forgot ).

Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin come to mind and we all know how that turned out.

______________________________

Now on to the mod business!

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[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

I can understand why they would despise him for being a racist, but SWM is not framed in those terms; they are hateful to him mainly for appearance, apparently, the long, skinny, greasy haired pointy-nosed loser in their eyes.

I agree.

it is Snape's bigotry toward muggleborns that finally strains her loyalty to Severus beyond sustainability

Lily knew about Snape and his thoughts about muggles and muggleborns for a very long time; that attitude was not cultivated afresh and it was not as if Lily broke off with him once she knew he had such ideas IMO.

Originally Posted by eliza101

Snape did not use a swear word, he used a racial insult.

I agree.

A disgustingly unforgivable racial insult IMO, and his underwear did need washing.

I agree with this as well. But I see it this way. There is the moral high, where Lily could have just blinked and then walked away, showing how much Snape had hurt her by that remark, coming though it was when Snape was having a bad time also IMO.

But the moment she replied to that remark, calling him Snivellus in turn and telling him that he should clean his underwear, I see Lily as equal to Snape; I don't see her on a moral high. That she was insulted by a pathetic word by her "best friend" was hurting, but Lily did not take that hurt and keep quiet, preferring to sort out her differences with Snape later on, instead she also called him a name which was as humiliating to him as mudblood was to her IMO.

Secondly, she also told him that his underwear was unclean, threby, not being just rude or hurtful, but pointing out his lack of everything by that one word. And that I truly consider more humiliating than even a racial slur uttered in a moment of humiliation IMO.

Sure calling a person a mudblood was wrong, but how different was the other person, who told this guy he simply lacked in everything; that he was right in his insecurities, for he was just not there. She told him that what others had been telling him for years and those words spoken harshly and clearly was equally bad IMO.

Many people tell us many things and yet those that hurt us the most or those that make us happiest the most are those words that come from our dearest people/friends IMO.

Snape hurt Lily that day and had Lily been his best friend, she would have been very, very hurt. Snape loved Lily still at the time of the SWM and Lily knew it too, so her words spoken almost deliberately it seemed would have hurt Snape a million times more than the hundred Snivellus others called him IMO.

Lily was IMO no way better that Snape or James that day. Because Snape loved her, he went to her, not minding the insult he received, prepared to do anything to remove the hurt his insult must have caused her IMO.

It's not that difficult to keep clean at Hogwarts. He should have tried harder.

It is difficult to do things if one does not know it. Lily was his friend and as his friend she probably simply accepted him as he was. And he was a poor deprived child, who had no love or care at his home. Lily when she was his friend, saw beyond all that. But I don't think she tried to put him straight on manners or cleanliness, becasue she may have felt that would embarrass Snape and secondly that was not her job (though she could have told him a thing or two IMO).

And if I had a friend who did use a swear word or profanity to me we would not be friends anymore, so I'm not willing to excuse him on the grounds that he thought it was a swear word.

I would agree with this, had Lily also broken off with snape the first time he swore. But she did not. Not for years. She was content to be his friend, when he was using this racial slur towards others IMO.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I respect your view, however, I don't understand your opinion of Lily's character. I mean if she was cold, formal, wanted the friendship to end, untouched by everything "Snape", and planning to end the relationship - well why would a girl like that need an excuse to end the friendship? Wouldn't someone as cold-hearted and callous as that, simply break it off?

That was what she did IMO. It was Snape who went to her and begged.

Another point you made was that your felt Lily decided on James and that is why she ended her friendship with Snape. But then you said she wasn't interested in James for any of his qualities, or the fact that he was not prejudice, or because he was in Gryffindor...so why do you feel that she decided on James and felt she had to end her friendship with Snape if she liked nothing about James? I felt Lily was portrayed as a sensitive, kind and fair person. I do not feel that she was cold, formal and unrelenting for the selfish reason that she had feelings for someone Snape did not like.

I think she fell in love, just like Snape who could not stop loving this girl, even when she went out with the guy who was his worst enemy, married him and had babies IMO.

I don't think she was selfish because she fell for James. Falling for James was something she probably could not help and I also think she could not deal/was not prepared/did not want to tackle both James and Snape. James also came with an added baggage of Sirius (another Snape hater she'd have to manage), Remus who would not do anything against James and weak little Peter IMO.

I think Lily felt that she had to choose between these 2 because she may have felt they would not be compatible and so her compatibility with both of them would suffer IMO. So she chose. She chose love over friendship IMO.

Originally Posted by Moriath

Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin come to mind and we all know how that turned out.

I did forget. This is an interesting observation about a Gryffindor and a Slytherin friendship and perhaps even love. We really don't know much about them. It could have been love for all we know lol.

Did GG choose something/someone (perhaps a muggleborn), which sparked off Slytherin's hatred of them? And Slytherin made his House one for Purebloods only? I wonder.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I agree with this as well. But I see it this way. There is the moral high, where Lily could have just blinked and then walked away, showing how much Snape had hurt her by that remark, coming though it was when Snape was having a bad time also IMO.

I respect your view; but blinking and walking away is something a 25 year old might do - but not a 16 year old, imo. I think that is putting too high of an expectation on a teenager. I don't even place a high expectation on Snape - I feel that it is normal he'd be jealous and angry at Lily - and in his deep humiliation and anger at the situation, it is not odd to me that he would lash out at her. However, I do feel that a 16 year old should not make bigoted remarks and Snape knew better than to do so, imo.

Understand, it would have been bad for Snape to lash out at her in any case because she was defending him. But if he'd merely said "I don't need your help" in a rude tone of voice, I would completely understand. But Snape went beyond that and his remark was unforgivable in my judgment.

Sure calling a person a mudblood was wrong, but how different was the other person, who told this guy he simply lacked in everything; that he was right in his insecurities, for he was just not there. She told him that what others had been telling him for years and those words spoken harshly and clearly was equally bad IMO.

I feel it is very different. I respectfully disagree wth your interpretation of Lily telling Snape he should wash his underwear. I feel he should have washed his underwear, but more importantly, it does not mean that he lacks everything or is right in his insecurities - I am not sure why you feel the words would have that meaning. It simply means that his underwear are dirty and he needs to turn them into the house elves for cleaning, imo.

The nickname Snivellus has no meaning for anyone except that it is a term coined by his enemies. Well, Lily was declaring herself his enemy; she told him that she was no longer going to attempt to be there for him in the future (SWM).

But all of that is in response to Snape referring to her as a Mudblood. You commented that it was not nice. In my opinion, it is not only not nice, but it is declaring yourself better than another person merely because of their birthright. That is speaking in an evil manner, imo. That idea has been the cause of full on wars which resulted in millions being slaughtered via genocide. I am unsure why you feel Lily should have not been completely humiliated, degraded, indignant and angry. I feel that would be the normal response.

Lily was IMO no way better that Snape or James that day. Because Snape loved her, he went to her, not minding the insult he received, prepared to do anything to remove the hurt his insult must have caused her IMO.

I respect your view, but I feel that Snape could not remove the hurt no matter what he did. The best he could have done was change his entire viewpoint and that was something he was unwilling to do, imo. But I feel it would never have erased the pain and humiliation that he'd caused Lily. You know there were people who didn't even think about others in terms of immutable differences (things they cannot change about themselves) - so they would never say "Mudblood". That is the type of friend that Lily wanted - and Snape was just the opposite, imo.

I think she fell in love, just like Snape who could not stop loving this girl, even when she went out with the guy who was his worst enemy, married him and had babies IMO.

I don't think she was selfish because she fell for James. Falling for James was something she probably could not help and I also think she could not deal/was not prepared/did not want to tackle both James and Snape. James also came with an added baggage of Sirius (another Snape hater she'd have to manage), Remus who would not do anything against James and weak little Peter IMO.

I respect your view, but that wasn't my question. I asked, why would she fall in love with James if she did not like his qualities, his viewpoint on things and those attributes which made him a candidate for Gryffindor?

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I would agree with this, had Lily also broken off with snape the first time he swore. But she did not. Not for years. She was content to be his friend, when he was using this racial slur towards others IMO.

People try to forgive or tolerate things that they would otherwise considerable unacceptable behavior when their friends do it. Putting up with undesirable behavior by friends is not the same as approving of it. Typically they try to convince the friend not to do the behavior, but at some point people can get fed up and stop being friends. I've been in a situation like that.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Understand, it would have been bad for Snape to lash out at her in any case because she was defending him. But if he'd merely said "I don't need your help" in a rude tone of voice, I would completely understand. But Snape went beyond that and his remark was unforgivable in my judgment.

I don't think Lily was defending Snape as much as she wanted James to stop IMO.

I feel it is very different. I respectfully disagree wth your interpretation of Lily telling Snape he should wash his underwear. I feel he should have washed his underwear, but more importantly, it does not mean that he lacks everything or is right in his insecurities - I am not sure why you feel the words would have that meaning. It simply means that his underwear are dirty and he needs to turn them into the house elves for cleaning, imo.

She was judging him there and she was judging him like those people who were his enemies. That's how it looked to me.

The nickname Snivellus has no meaning for anyone except that it is a term coined by his enemies. Well, Lily was declaring herself his enemy; she told him that she was no longer going to attempt to be there for him in the future (SWM).

I don't know if Lily was declaring herself as his enemy, but she was certainly distancing herself as his friend IMO. She was not there for him from the werewolf incident itself and now she made it known to him IMO.

But all of that is in response to Snape referring to her as a Mudblood. You commented that it was not nice. In my opinion, it is not only not nice, but it is declaring yourself better than another person merely because of their birthright. That is speaking in an evil manner, imo.

I agree. Lily, in turn also commented upon his birth/home circumstance and told him he was lacking. She did not let him get away with his insult at that time and she also broke off her friendship with him that night. Snape called her a swear word that was racial. Lily called him a word that was humiliating and she pointed out his birth circumstances too IMO.

I am not excusing Snape, but I am objecting to Lily being the better person in this. I think she was not.

I respect your view, but that wasn't my question. I asked, why would she fall in love with James if she did not like his qualities, his viewpoint on things and those attributes which made him a candidate for Gryffindor?

Because falling in love is despite something IMO unlike having affection for someone or liking someone which is because of something IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't think Lily was defending Snape as much as she wanted James to stop IMO.

Ah, I understand what you meant now.

She was judging him there and she was judging him like those people who were his enemies. That's how it looked to me.

Well I was trying to understand your point of view. How do you feel that Lily's judgment that Snape should wash his underwear was 'judging him like an enemy?' I mean, he did need to wash them, imo, so it wasn't a judgment of an enemy, but rather simply a judgment anyone looking on would make - unless they didn't mind not washing their underwear.

I agree it was not a nice thing to say, but it was tame compared to a racial slur, imo. I believe Lily had to say something, because otherwise she would have looked like a pretty sad sap that wished to be friends with someone who believed in that ideology. But granted, I think Lily had been trying to convince herself that Snape really didn't feel that way.

I don't know if Lily was declaring herself as his enemy, but she was certainly distancing herself as his friend IMO. She was not there for him from the werewolf incident itself and now she made it known to him IMO.

I respect your view; however, I feel that she made a realization about Snape that day.

I agree. Lily, in turn also commented upon his birth/home circumstance and told him he was lacking. She did not let him get away with his insult at that time and she also broke off her friendship with him that night. Snape called her a swear word that was racial. Lily called him a word that was humiliating and she pointed out his birth circumstances too IMO.

I understand the connection you are making. But I feel you are not differentiating between learning bad habits at home (something a person can change about themselves) and being born a certain race which you cannot change. It is like James was arrogant, and he changed and became less arrogant. So Lily calling him arrogant wasn't the end of the world because it has its negative aspects and it is something he could work on. Lily told Snape to wash his underwear - and he could do that. Both comments were insensitive, but James did become less arrogant and Snape likely was wearing bright white underwear soon after, considering lifting people up was a fad and he was in danger of it happening by friend or foe at anytime. But Snape called Lily a filthy little Mudblood and there was nothing she could (or should) do to change her birthright. 1000 showers and behavioral adjustments and she would still be of muggle birth. Do you see what I mean? Further, it was not something that anyone should wish her to change or that she should even consider changing about herself - because she was not inferior or less of a person for being Muggleborn. That is why one does not put a person down for that type of thing and it is referred to as bigotry.

Because falling in love is despite something IMO unlike having affection for someone or liking someone which is because of something IMO.

I don't understand; a person can't fall in love with someone if they hate everything about them. It would be like Hermione falling in love with Voldemort . I mean one can love someone despite a few things, but not despite everything because there is nothing to like, let alone love. But maybe I am misunderstanding you. In any case, I feel Lily liked a good many things about James; it was when he was overly arrogant or hexing when molested/ in enemy battles that she disliked his behavior, imo.

[Pearl_Took]

These discussions go round and round in endless circles ...

Originally Posted by ignisia

I think the arrogance of the Gryffindors both in the Marauder era and Harry's time wasn't exactly due to their beliefs on blood, but their beliefs on everything. It seems a common Gryffindor attribute that they always consider themselves on the right side without thinking about the subtleties of the situation. Because they have more tolerant views on blood status and because, well, they're Gryffindors, it seems they feel entitled to think Slytherins lower life forms, as opposed to confused and misled children. IMO, of course.

As usual, Iggy, I find myself agreeing with you. (And Harry is a very typical Gryffindor, isn't he? I adore the guy, but subtlety is not his middle name. )

Tying this back to Severus, however, we see that this is not always the case. The insults thrown at him in SWM made no mention of his blood-beliefs, and instead were jabs at his appearance.

Well, yes.

The bottom line is, Gryffs can act like jerks and Slyths can act like jerks, but actually the cult of pureblood bigotry is a really grave issue in the series and that fact shouldn't be lost sight of. That issue is all bound up with why Lily died. As someone who opposed Voldemort's pureblood agenda, she was already on his hitlist.

So while the nickname "Snivellus" is spiteful , the racial insult of "Mudblood" is worse, not just because the word itself is akin to insulting someone because of their race, religion or the colour of their skin, but also because it signals the active persecution of another race.

So I agree with Wickedwickedboy that Snape calling Lily a 'Mudblood' is a really, really big deal.

Having been hurt and humiliated by him, she blinks and tries to recover her composure, and then reacts coolly with a stinging insult. Of course it's a nasty thing for her to say to Severus, but the hurt and anger which led her to lashing out like that at him is understandable.

When Severus comes to plead with her that last time -- -- he doesn't even raise the issue of what she called him. He knows he has done something unforgivable. He knows that what he has done to her is beyond the pale. And, sadly, Lily has just had enough.

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

People try to forgive or tolerate things that they would otherwise considerable unacceptable behavior when their friends do it. Putting up with undesirable behavior by friends is not the same as approving of it. Typically they try to convince the friend not to do the behavior, but at some point people can get fed up and stop being friends. I've been in a situation like that.

Yup, I agree.

[eliza101]

[quote=Pearl_Took;5181261]These discussions go round and round in endless circles ...

When Severus comes to plead with her that last time -- -- he doesn't even raise the issue of what she called him. He knows he has done something unforgivable. He knows that what he has done to her is beyond the pale. QUOTE]

It is too easy to excuse Snape for using a racial insult because he is upset. I grant that he is upset but what he did was terrible, what Lily did was unlikable. I like that expression 'beyond the pale'. It refers to the largest ghetto in Russia, The Pale in the 19th century. That was where The Jewish population was segregated.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Ah, I understand what you meant now.

I felt Lily was trying to stop James from overdoing than trying to save Snape.

Well I was trying to understand your point of view. How do you feel that Lily's judgment that Snape should wash his underwear was 'judging him like an enemy?' I mean, he did need to wash them, imo, so it wasn't a judgment of an enemy, but rather simply a judgment anyone looking on would make - unless they didn't mind not washing their underwear.

I thought it in poor taste to say this to an enemy; I was surprised Lily could say this to a boy whose home life she knew and with whom she was friends for over 6 years. And this was not a statement she said in anger; we saw she blinked; in canon she does not show anger or rage. By humiliating Snape, she was saying that she was finished with him IMO.

I respect your view; however, I feel that she made a realization about Snape that day.

I thought that she felt she finally had enough reason to end this friendship.

I understand the connection you are making. But I feel you are not differentiating between learning bad habits at home (something a person can change about themselves) and being born a certain race which you cannot change.

Believe me, I know. The caste system is not all that different from racial prejudice. If Black people were not allowed to sit on a bus, there were certain castes which were not allowed into certain "upper caste" areas. No water from this well, no cremating in this area, no walking through this space, you name it, and I'll give you more shameful things.

But it does not automatically make a person good just because he/she does not call others racial swearwords. This is very bad, but so are other things too IMO.

This is what Lily did IMO. Snape humiliated her; she turned around and humiliated him straight back IMO.

I don't understand; a person can't fall in love with someone if they hate everything about them. It would be like Hermione falling in love with Voldemort . But maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Because love is supposed to be like that. it is supposed to transcend caste, creed, colour, race and even character at times. It is supposed to have no rhyme or reason to happen IMO.

That was why Snape could not stop loving this girl even when she went out with a boy whom she knew was Snape's hated enemy. And he could not stop loving her when she married him and had Harry IMO.