Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

Voldemort made his first appearance (that we see) in Harry's first year at Hogwarts.

Plus, Dumbledore and Snape both knew Voldemort would return.

Very true, we the readers know that, but in canon did the DE's. The reason I think they don't is that in the next book 'Chamber of Secrets' Lucius is very cavalier with LV's diary. If he had suspected for a moment that Lv was on the verge of coming back, would he have played his dangerous little game? I don't think so. How many knew for sure that Quirrel had been possesed by LV? Dumbledore, Snape and the Trio. I don't think that LV's presence was braodcast, no one would have believed them without proof, we see that in OOTP.

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by eliza101

Very true, we the readers know that, but in canon did the DE's. The reason I think they don't is that in the next book 'Chamber of Secrets' Lucius is very cavalier with LV's diary. If he had suspected for a moment that Lv was on the verge of coming back, would he have played his dangerous little game? I don't think so. How many knew for sure that Quirrel had been possesed by LV? Dumbledore, Snape and the Trio. I don't think that LV's presence was braodcast, no one would have believed them without proof, we see that in OOTP.

I think I see what you mean. But, I wonder whether any of the DE's did suspect Voldemort still being alive and whether it was a matter of time. Voldemort in GoF seemed very sure that no DE's went to find him, as though they should have known where and how to look for him. Pettigrew went to find him, so I'm wondering if there were indeed rumours going about.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

I think I see what you mean. But, I wonder whether any of the DE's did suspect Voldemort still being alive and whether it was a matter of time. Voldemort in GoF seemed very sure that no DE's went to find him, as though they should have known where and how to look for him. Pettigrew went to find him, so I'm wondering if there were indeed rumours going about.

But Bella and her husband did go and look for him. They kidnapped the Longbottoms and tortured them to find out what happened to LV, but they didn't know.Dumbledore did not know for sure until Harry came to Hogwarts and LV made his presence known. I'm not to sure about Pettigrew, There is no time for him to go and look, he was hiding from Sirius.

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by eliza101

But Bella and her husband did go and look for him. They kidnapped the Longbottoms and tortured them to find out what happened to LV, but they didn't know.Dumbledore did not know for sure until Harry came to Hogwarts and LV made his presence known. I'm not to sure about Pettigrew, There is no time for him to go and look, he was hiding from Sirius.

I meant Pettigrew seemed to know whereabouts to look, after he was discovered in PoA. It's just the way Voldemort said his speech, as though certain DE's should have known to look and where. I'm not sure really.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

I meant Pettigrew seemed to know whereabouts to look, when discovered in PoA. It's just the way Voldemort said his speech, as though certain DE's should have known to look and where. I'm not sure really.

Well it seems I will have to go and reread some chapters in POA and GOF.

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by eliza101

Well it seems I will have to go and reread some chapters in POA and GOF.

Dumbledore also says this in CoS:

"What interests me most," said Dumbledore gently, "is how Lord Voldemort managed to enchant Ginny, when my sources tell me his is currently in hiding in the forests of Albania."

He possibly went back to where he was originally hiding. It also makes me wonder who these sources are, and where they got their information. There seemed to be rumours, we don't really know how long these kind of rumours have been circulating.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

Lupin's scars I suspect are from being a werewolf, possibly caused during his transformations, for example.

I think he got scars from transformation also.

We have only ever seen Snape use the curse once in an extremely emotional time, considering what the Marauders were doing to him, this was after the Werewolf Incident, he left a small cut when trying to get James to back off.

Imo.

I respect your view. Snape may have wanted James to back off Lily perhaps, but since his back was to Snape at the time and he wasn't even paying him any attention, it was not done to get him to back off in the traditional sense. Snape was being vindictive, he didn't like the little flirtation he perceived between Lily and James (real or not). And that is why he vindictively called Lily a filthy little Mudblood later - he was angry at her as well, imo. I agree he was emotional, but that he chose to use a dark curse that cut people says more to his mentality than his emotional state, imo. It was his specialty which means he elected to use it quite often - I feel that is just how he was. His foes were no better picking on him, but that gives him no excuse for using that spell, imo, after all, Levicorpus was his creation, surely he knew how to use it. Perhaps James had on funny underwear too and his "revenge" would have been fair dealing if he'd used that spell instead, imo.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Wick, until JKR says that was the case, I can only treat this theory as pure fanon.

I think Annielogic is right about Remus’s scars being caused by himself during his horrible and terrifying transformations.

What I said was nonsense. But it sure fits the canon if one wants it to as a new theory.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

What I said was nonsense.

But it sure fits the canon if one wants it to as a new theory.

The annoying thing is, you're right.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

So why wasn't he nice to Bella?

I think he was polite and watched his words with Bella and he tolerated Peter too, when he knew that peter was Lily's killer IMO.

That is another reason that Snape had a hard time letting go of his grudge, because he knew he had been very wrong to the Marauders, leaving them scarred with his curse and there was no way he could make up for that. All this is IMO only.

If Snape had indeed been very wrong to the Marauders, I don't think Dumbledore would have told Harry the opposite. James was Harry's father and Sirius was his godfather and Harry had just lost Sirius. It was in this circumstance that Dumbledore told Harry about the deep wounds Snape had from Harry's father. Had Snape been in the wrong, I think Dumbledore would not have told Harry a lie like that and at that time and that too about Harry's father, knowing how much Harry was suffering already IMO.

She was obviously best friends with her boyfriend and husband to be, James starting in 7th. Before that, she had very good best friends who were girl friends. I don't think she was ever best friends with Snape - he did not know how to be a friend, imo. So she just said "yes" when he asked if they were friends, but his dark interests and cursing and bigoted behaviour kept them from really ever being friends, imo.

She may have been and she may have had girlfriends, whom she quoted that night of the SWM, but I meant best friends like Harry/Hermione/Ron and James/Sirius. Snape/Lily were like that; it was an equal to that I believe Lily did not find, for I am sure had there been a best friend like that, she/he would have either made an appearance or at least would have had a mention by Sirius, Remus or Snape (in his memories) or Dumbledore IMO.

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

I don't see how we can assume that because something wasn't in canon that it didn't happen or couldn't exist.

I think assumption/speculation comes in because things are not specified in canon. I agree as I have written above that Lily had many friends. But best friends like I said above, I don't think so, because it does not find place in canon IMO.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I do not agree that insulting someone because they're black, or a Jew, or a Muslim (which is pretty much the real life parallel of the fictional insult of 'Mudblood'), is on the same level as insulting someone's underwear. It is illegal in the UK to use that kind of hateful racist language to someone at work, you can be fired from your job if you insult a colleague in that way. And rightly so, IMO.

I respectfully disagree. Racial slur is based on birth and Lily's insults for me, personally was also based on Snape's birth; she called Snape, Snivellus too, which was a nick name given by those who were not his friends. And I agree with you this while rude is not anywhere near calling on another's birth which is the lowest IMO.

But I would disagree if her comments on his underwear are also in the same vein as Snivellus. Because, for me, calling his attention to the lack of everything a child should have had but did not and for which Snape could not help himself is equal to the racial slur of cursing someone with what they could not help either. And while a Muslim, Black, or a Jew can be proud of what they are, irrespective of what others call them, Snape could not/ was not proud of the lack of so many things in his life he was never taught or knew or had, which separated him from others and called ridicule on him, which further drew him into a shell of insecurity IMO. There are so many things he should been taught by his parents, who did not see it fit to teach this boy even the basic hygiene and it was that that Lily called notice to and as publicly as Snape's slur IMO.

She lashed back because she was hurt.

Snape was hurt too! Snape calling Lily a mudblood was not meant in the same way as Snape calling others mudblood. then he probably meant it. I would have understood had Lily broken off her friendship when Snape called Mary McDonald a mudblood, for he meant it in the worst way possible. But Lily does not and yet, she takes grave insult when Snape calls her the same, in a situation where he is in danger of his underpants removed. That is why I think I am unable to see why Snape calling her a mudblood is not okay to her when Snape calling others was IMO.

It was because of these reasons, I felt Lily was not his friend at that time. If she were I think she would have understood the helplessness Snape faced and would have understood that mudblood came out of Snape's mouth, because it was a swear word, she herself had heard Snape using in the past and more deliberately and intentionally too IMO.

I think Lily stopped being Snape's friend from the werewolf incident and she used the SWM as an excuse to break off formally with Snape.

And I am not blaming Lily for breaking off. I am only saying that she broke off with Snape a long time ago IMO.

How is Severus calling Lily 'Mudblood' less serious and hurtful than his calling other people 'Mudblood'?

Have answered this above.

The insult remains exactly the same, with the same deadly effect, no matter who he uses it on or whatever his feelings were.

I agree. That was why I feel let down when Lily was okay with Snape calling others mudblood, but she broke off the moment he called her one IMO.

I mean, it’s like saying a white person insulting a black friend is less serious than them insulting other black people because, obviously, they didn't really mean it with their friend and only lashed out because they were feeling hurt. Well, that obviously wouldn't cut any ice with the friend they'd insulted, and it doesn't cut any ice with Lily.

But to the black person, this white person calling others black in her presence should also be as serious as calling her black. That is what I mean.

Such an interpretation implies to me that her feelings are of less account than Snape's, or that calling someone 'Mudblood' isn't a big deal, when the author clearly intends us to believe that it is.

Of course calling someone a mudblood is a big deal. But Lily was okay when Snape called other mudblood for years is what I mean to say, and when she thought it was not so demeaning or bad when Snape called others names intentionally, I thin it is not wrong to expect her to understand Snape' position when he called her by the same name IMO.

Surely that lip-twitch (which I also dislike) was against Lily’s better judgement.

I think Lily would not have done it had she been Snape's best friend at that time.

I do not believe it was JKR’s intention to portray Lily as a callous girl who dropped a good friend on a whim, just because she fancied James Potter.

I think I differ from you here as well, because I don't see Lily as wrong, callous or bad for dropping Snape, because she fell for James. Frankly, I don't think it takes away anything from her; she can fall for anyone and she has all the right to break a friendship she does not want; what I don't like from her is the way she went about it (the break up) or the reasons she gave on page, when those reasons were not an issue before IMO.

The entire post is my opinion only.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think he was polite and watched his words with Bella and he tolerated Peter too, when he knew that peter was Lily's killer IMO.

I didn't think he was nice to Bella at Spinner's End at all. He didn't seem to be playing any game of pretend with her in as far as his attitude. He was mean to her, imo. I felt she was mean to him too.

If Snape had indeed been very wrong to the Marauders, I don't think Dumbledore would have told Harry the opposite. James was Harry's father and Sirius was his godfather and Harry had just lost Sirius. It was in this circumstance that Dumbledore told Harry about the deep wounds Snape had from Harry's father. Had Snape been in the wrong, I think Dumbledore would not have told Harry a lie like that and at that time and that too about Harry's father, knowing how much Harry was suffering already IMO.

Dumbledore didn't say the opposite; he wasn't talking about James, he was talking about Snape. Snape was the one who couldn't get over the fact that he'd cut people up when he was young, IMO. Dumbledore said that he'd forgotten that the old wounds that Snape had caused Harry's dad (the cuts) wouldn't heal and that Snape would never be able to get over the fact that he'd cut him up. He was trying to cheer Harry up because Sirius had just died, IMO.

Dumbledore said: "some wounds run too deep for the healing. (Here he is talking about the cuts Snape caused with his curse.) Then he says: "I thought Pro. Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong." - (here he is talking about the feelings Snape had about the deep wounds (cuts) he'd made. He couldn't get over the fact that he'd cut up Harry's dad.) IMO.

She may have been and she may have had girlfriends, whom she quoted that night of the SWM, but I meant best friends like Harry/Hermione/Ron and James/Sirius. Snape/Lily were like that; it was an equal to that I believe Lily did not find, for I am sure had there been a best friend like that, she/he would have either made an appearance or at least would have had a mention by Sirius, Remus or Snape (in his memories) or Dumbledore IMO.

How could her best friend, James, appear? He was dead. As for her old girlfriends, they were not important to the story, so JKR didn't bother including them. But I would disagree that Snape and Lily were ever as close of friends as James and Sirius. They were both Gryffindors and spent all their time together - they thought alike and had the same outlook on life. For Lily and Snape, they thought differently. Plus their friends didn't like the friendship and Lily's were complaining about it. That would put a drag on the friendship because she'd find herself always making excuses for Snape and wondering if maybe she shouldn't just end the friendship. So I don't think they were very close like James and Sirius were. However, they were friendly, imo.

Snape was hurt too! Snape calling Lily a mudblood was not meant in the same way as Snape calling others mudblood. then he probably meant it. I would have understood had Lily broken off her friendship when Snape called Mary McDonald a mudblood, for he meant it in the worst way possible. But Lily does not and yet, she takes grave insult when Snape calls her the same, in a situation where he is in danger of his underpants removed. That is why I think I am unable to see why Snape calling her a mudblood is not okay to her when Snape calling others was IMO.

Snape was not in danger of having his underwear removed until after he had behaved in a prejudice manner. At that point I can understand a 16 year old teenager wanting to do him harm for his comment (although perhaps not actually doing it - and we don't know what happened - the canon ends. As far as we know, Snape, who still had his wand, hit James with 7 successive Sectumsempra spells after that.). It was unacceptable and unforgivable for him to call Lily that. There is no comparison to calling someone 'Snivellus' or telling them to wash their pants. There is no comparison to calling him a greasy git or Snape using a ton of swear words. Those things are not prejudice in nature because the ideology behind it makes it far worse - socially. It isn't like he'd go to prison for having an idea, or even saying it out loud. But socially it is simply unacceptable behavior, imo.

[eliza101]

[quote]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I respectfully disagree. Racial slur is based on birth and Lily's insults for me, personally was also based on Snape's birth; she called Snape, Snivellus too, which was a nick name given by those who were not his friends. And I agree with you this while rude is not anywhere near calling on another's birth which is the lowest IMO.

Lily insulted him on his birth more than once?

Snape was hurt too! Snape calling Lily a mudblood was not meant in the same way as Snape calling others mudblood. then he probably meant it. I would have understood had Lily broken off her friendship when Snape called Mary McDonald a mudblood, for he meant it in the worst way possible. But Lily does not and yet, she takes grave insult when Snape calls her the same, in a situation where he is in danger of his underpants removed. That is why I think I am unable to see why Snape calling her a mudblood is not okay to her when Snape calling others was IMO.

It was because of these reasons, I felt Lily was not his friend at that time. If she were I think she would have understood the helplessness Snape faced and would have understood that mudblood came out of Snape's mouth, because it was a swear word, she herself had heard Snape using in the past and more deliberately and intentionally too IMO.

Does the word mudblood sound different when Lily is called it by Snape? The term 'mudblood' is not profanity, it is a racial insult.
We dont know if Snape has called anybody else mudblood in her hearing. She could have heard about him doing it the same way she heard about him going into the tunnel. That is speculation on my part, but so is everything else that is not specifically spelt out in canon. We only know for sure that at the time Lily broke off with Snape she mentions that he calls everyone of her birth that. Now I don't think Snape is foolish enough to call a Muggle born witch/wizard mudblood in her hearing, but that she finds out he does cannot be denied. IMO it is one more nail in the coffin of their friendship.

But to the black person, this white person calling others black in her presence should also be as serious as calling her black. That is what I mean.

Of course calling someone a mudblood is a big deal. But Lily was okay when Snape called other mudblood for years is what I mean to say, and when she thought it was not so demeaning or bad when Snape called others names intentionally, I thin it is not wrong to expect her to understand Snape' position when he called her by the same name IMO.

As I said above we do not have one incident in the books where Snape called another Muggleborn witch/wizard a 'mudblood' in Lily's presence and I don't think Lily would have stood for it if he did.

IMO opinion Snape was a nasty little bigot when he was 16. He became a DE and turned his back on his best friend to do that. That is his tragedy. His redemtion came when he realised what he had done and IMO did his best to make amends

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think he was polite and watched his words with Bella and he tolerated Peter too, when he knew that peter was Lily's killer IMO. P.

I don't think he's polite to Bella at all in the Spinner's End chapter. And he's pretty horrible to Peter. (Which, of course, is understandable, given that Peter was Lily's betrayer.)

I respectfully disagree. Racial slur is based on birth and Lily's insults for me, personally was also based on Snape's birth; she called Snape, Snivellus too, which was a nickname given by those who were not his friends. And I agree with you this while rude is not anywhere near calling on another's birth which is the lowest IMO.

I disagree that the nickname 'Snivellus' (which certainly is an unkind and unnecessary nickname) has anything to do with Snape's birth or his blood status. Sirius first coined it because he was mocking Snape's proper name, Severus. It's like the Marauders' own personal insult for Snape, and I totally agree that it's wrong and nasty, in the way that any nickname designed to deliberately hurt and jeer at someone is wrong and nasty. We can all cite incidents of similar childish spitefulness from our childhoods, I'm sure. But it's not an equivalent insult to 'Mudblood', which is a generic insult for all those of a particular race or blood type.

But I would disagree if her comments on his underwear are also in the same vein as Snivellus. Because, for me, calling his attention to the lack of everything a child should have had but did not and for which Snape could not help himself is equal to the racial slur of cursing someone with what they could not help either. And while a Muslim, Black, or a Jew can be proud of what they are, irrespective of what others call them, Snape could not/ was not proud of the lack of so many things in his life he was never taught or knew or had, which separated him from others and called ridicule on him, which further drew him into a shell of insecurity IMO. There are so many things he should been taught by his parents, who did not see it fit to teach this boy even the basic hygiene and it was that that Lily called notice to and as publicly as Snape's slur IMO.

Yes, she insulted him with the underwear remark after he had insulted her.

And, you know, however proud of their heritage someone might be, it is still a horrible thing for them to have to endure racist taunts about it. It is simply not true that 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me' -- words have tremendous destructive power. Verbal bullying can be every bit as destructive as physical blows.

Snape was hurt too! Snape calling Lily a mudblood was not meant in the same way as Snape calling others mudblood. then he probably meant it.

Well, of course Snape was hurt. But he lashed out at her first, before she responded in kind. Whether Snape meant it or not is immaterial: 'Mudblood' is like the Unspeakable word that one doesn't speak, and once it's out there, once he's thrown it at her, he knows he has gone beyond the pale. Which is why he comes to her desperate for forgiveness.

I would have understood had Lily broken off her friendship when Snape called Mary McDonald a mudblood, for he meant it in the worst way possible. But Lily does not and yet, she takes grave insult when Snape calls her the same, in a situation where he is in danger of his underpants removed.

But Lily had no idea that James was going to threaten to take off Snape's pants because she had already exited the scene.

That is why I think I am unable to see why Snape calling her a mudblood is not okay to her when Snape calling others was IMO.

But it wasn't OK to her. She makes that very point to him: "You call everyone of my heritage 'Mudblood', Severus. Why should I be any different?"

It was because of these reasons, I felt Lily was not his friend at that time. If she were I think she would have understood the helplessness Snape faced and would have understood that mudblood came out of Snape's mouth, because it was a swear word, she herself had heard Snape using in the past and more deliberately and intentionally too IMO.

This is expecting waaaaay too much of a mere fifteen year old girl in that situation, IMO. And quite honestly, if I were in Lily's position, I doubt I would be much more reasonable than she was. However upset one is feeling, there are just some things you don't say ... especially if the friend you've insulted has come to your defence.

I agree. That was why I feel let down when Lily was okay with Snape calling others mudblood, but she broke off the moment he called her one IMO.

Again, I feel this is massively unfair to the character. There is no canon that she was 'okay with Snape calling others mudblood'.

But to the black person, this white person calling others black in her presence should also be as serious as calling her black.

Absolutely, I agree. But from what I can judge of Lily in canon, she did take that just as seriously. As an adult, she fought actively against that kind of prejudice.

Of course calling someone a mudblood is a big deal. But Lily was okay when Snape called other mudblood for years is what I mean to say, and when she thought it was not so demeaning or bad when Snape called others names intentionally, I think it is not wrong to expect her to understand Snape' position when he called her by the same name IMO.

Well, I've already argued this point above. I don't think Lily was OK with it at all. I just don't interpret her character like that.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

IDumbledore didn't say the opposite; he wasn't talking about James, he was talking about Snape. Snape was the one who couldn't get over the fact that he'd cut people up when he was young, IMO. Dumbledore said that he'd forgotten that the old wounds that Snape had caused Harry's dad (the cuts) wouldn't heal and that Snape would never be able to get over the fact that he'd cut him up. He was trying to cheer Harry up because Sirius had just died, IMO.

"Some wounds run too deep for the healing. I though Professor Snape could overcome his feelings for your father - I was wrong."

I thought Dumbledore meant that Snape had wounds too deep; he had hoped Snape would be able to over come his feelings for James, but he was wrong. The wounds inside Snape were too deep to heal IMO.

As far as we know, Snape, who still had his wand, hit James with 7 successive Sectumsempra spells after that.).

Where is this?

Originally Posted by eliza101

Lily insulted him on his birth more than once?

In the SWM only as far as I remember and I meant her insults on Snape's underwear when I wrote "insults". Sorry.

Does the word mudblood sound different when Lily is called it by Snape?

No it did not and it would not have had Lily took the same stance towards Snape when he called others mudblood IMO.

We dont know if Snape has called anybody else mudblood in her hearing.

She says so in canon the night of the SWM, but we don't see it in canon, I agree.

We only know for sure that at the time Lily broke off with Snape she mentions that he calls everyone of her birth that. Now I don't think Snape is foolish enough to call a Muggle born witch/wizard mudblood in her hearing, but that she finds out he does cannot be denied. IMO it is one more nail in the coffin of their friendship.

The moment he admits to calling someone mudblood, Lily should have taken action, if that word would affect her as it did in the SWM IMO.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I don't think he's polite to Bella at all in the Spinner's End chapter. And he's pretty horrible to Peter. (Which, of course, is understandable, given that Peter was Lily's betrayer.)

I agree. Yeah, he was deliciously nasty , but he never atagonised her in such a way she could take him to Voldemort for punishment or betrayal was what I meant.

I disagree that the nickname 'Snivellus' (which certainly is an unkind and unnecessary nickname) has anything to do with Snape's birth or his blood status. Sirius first coined it because he was mocking Snape's proper name, Severus. It's like the Marauders' own personal insult for Snape, and I totally agree that it's wrong and nasty, in the way that any nickname designed to deliberately hurt and jeer at someone is wrong and nasty. We can all cite incidents of similar childish spitefulness from our childhoods, I'm sure. But it's not an equivalent insult to 'Mudblood', which is a generic insult for all those of a particular race or blood type.

I said the same thing ; Snivellus while rude is not the racial slur that mudblood is. But I said the pointing out of Snape's lack of everything was not like calling him Snivellus.

Yes, she insulted him with the underwear remark after he had insulted her.

I agree.

And, you know, however proud of their heritage someone might be, it is still a horrible thing for them to have to endure racist taunts about it. It is simply not true that 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me' -- words have tremendous destructive power. Verbal bullying can be every bit as destructive as physical blows.

Sure it is destructive and there is no justification for that either IMO.

But Lily had no idea that James was going to threaten to take off Snape's pants because she had already exited the scene.

That's correct and one I forgot honestly. Yes, Lily walks away, leaving Snape to the mercy of the Marauders who clearly had the upper hand. So I don't know how to look at this. She probably did not care what happened to Snape once he called her a mudblood, perhaps?

But it wasn't OK to her. She makes that very point to him: "You call everyone of my heritage 'Mudblood', Severus. Why should I be any different?"

She did not break off her friendship to him when she either heard it first hand or heard through others that he called muggleborns by that name IMO. That was what I meant.

---------------------

I think Lily must have been a great friend. I think she must have shared something with Snape that neither Snape nor Lily could forget, nor could replace in their lives. It was because they shared that kind of a friendship that was fierce and complete that Snape was able to look up to her until he died. And I would like to think she never forgot him either. I think everything fell apart when Lily fell in love with James in their fifth year. And I think she chose James over Snape. And I think Snape knew it too; that was why he never fought for her love or friendship in the next 2 years and later IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

"Some wounds run too deep for the healing. I though Professor Snape could overcome his feelings for your father - I was wrong."

I thought Dumbledore meant that Snape had wounds too deep; he had hoped Snape would be able to over come his feelings for James, but he was wrong. The wounds inside Snape were too deep to heal IMO.

Not according to my interpretation. Dumbledore said some wounds are too deep - wounds are cuts, so imo, he was apparently referring to Harry's dad's cuts. Snape couldn't get over it because he disliked him, but at the same time, he felt bad about having cut him, imo. It all just added to Snape's confused feelings. Hence the doe.

Where is this?

Well in the same place that we read about what James may or may not have done when the scene ended. . All we know is that Lily was angry. She yelled at Snape, then James (even though he was trying to defend her) and then she marched away. She was humiliated, and feeling degraded because no one likes a racial slur thrown at them - and it is worse when it is someone people have seen you being kind to before, but not many others are kind to them - then it just makes you feel stupid. So I think all of those feelings were churning inside when she stormed away. Imagine if she had remained friends with him? Everyone would have supposed she had no self-esteem and accepted that someone she was friendly with would call her a racial slur.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by Wickedwickedboy

Not according to my interpretation. Dumbledore said some wounds are too deep - wounds are cuts, so imo, he was apparently referring to Harry's dad's cuts. Snape couldn't get over it because he disliked him, but at the same time, he felt bad about having cut him, imo.

I don't understand this interpretation; what makes you think that "wounds" here means James' cuts & physical scars caused by the Sectumsempra spell rather than Severus' deep emotional wounds caused by the bullying and humiliation at the hands of the Marauders and by the pain of Lily rejecting him and marrying James?

[SusanBones]

"Some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings for your father - I was wrong."
I interpretted this to mean that Snape never forgave James for taking Lily away from him. Snape loved Lily always. He never moved on from that. That is why I think the loss of her friendship/love is the wound too deep to heal. It would be easy to blame James, since he is the one who won her heart.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

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No it did not and it would not have had Lily took the same stance towards Snape when he called others mudblood IMO.

The moment he admits to calling someone mudblood, Lily should have taken action, if that word would affect her as it did in the SWM IMO.

She did not break off her friendship to him when she either heard it first hand or heard through others that he called muggleborns by that name IMO. That was what I meant.

We cannot just assume that. It was probably the first time she heard the word come out of his mouth. IMO Lily would not have under any circumstances tolerated such a racial slur spoken in her presence, in reference to herself or any other Muggleborn witch/wizard. We don't even know if there were any other Muggleborn at Hogwarts when she was attending. Snape was very careful in choosing his words when around her. We see that when they are small children and we see it on the train. She does however state that she had been making excuses for him for years to her other friends. That was probably what she was excusing, that and his love of the Dark Arts.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

"Some wounds run too deep for the healing. I though Professor Snape could overcome his feelings for your father - I was wrong."

I thought Dumbledore meant that Snape had wounds too deep; he had hoped Snape would be able to over come his feelings for James, but he was wrong. The wounds inside Snape were too deep to heal IMO.

I agree with this interpretation.

No it did not and it would not have had Lily took the same stance towards Snape when he called others mudblood IMO.

We don't know that she didn't. For all we know, he could have used the word -- by accident -- in her presence and she could have read him the riot act over it. But there's no canon either way to prove my point or yours, really.

The moment he admits to calling someone mudblood, Lily should have taken action, if that word would affect her as it did in the SWM IMO.

What kind of action? Yell at him? For all we know, that's what she did do. Stop being friends with him? -- well, maybe she still wanted to give him a chance. We don't know, there's no canon about it ... but there's no canon to support your view that she 'should' have taken action earlier.

I said the same thing ; Snivellus while rude is not the racial slur that mudblood is. But I said the pointing out of Snape's lack of everything was not like calling him Snivellus.

OK.

That's correct and one I forgot honestly. Yes, Lily walks away, leaving Snape to the mercy of the Marauders who clearly had the upper hand. So I don't know how to look at this. She probably did not care what happened to Snape once he called her a mudblood, perhaps?

I don't suppose she did care at that point. He'd just hurt her deeply, after she'd come to his defence.

I think Lily must have been a great friend. I think she must have shared something with Snape that neither Snape nor Lily could forget, nor could replace in their lives.

Clearly Lily was able to replace him, she went on to marry James and give birth to Harry without pining over Severus. As I've said before, Snape's feelings for Lily seem more intense than hers for him. However, I am sure she felt pain over the childhood friend who had, in her view, chosen the Dark Arts over her.

It was because they shared that kind of a friendship that was fierce and complete that Snape was able to look up to her until he died. And I would like to think she never forgot him either. I think everything fell apart when Lily fell in love with James in their fifth year. And I think she chose James over Snape. And I think Snape knew it too; that was why he never fought for her love or friendship in the next 2 years and later IMO.

I just don't see evidence of that 'fierce and complete friendship' in canon because the two of them never stop arguing from the moment they meet each other. OK, maybe the 'fierce' part.

I do think Lily meant a lot to Severus because she showed him unconditional love and kindness, because she accepted him for who he was. She was like a bright light in his rather dark and blighted life. And I think Lily was genuinely fond of him.

But IMO the friendship is shown as troubled and, yes, somewhat dysfunctional on Snape's side. The reader sees the anti-Muggle attitudes in young Severus that young Lily fails to see, and that spells trouble ahead. Sure enough, those attitudes were to cause much conflict between Severus and Lily, and that we do see in canon.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Not according to my interpretation. Dumbledore said some wounds are too deep - wounds are cuts, so imo, he was apparently referring to Harry's dad's cuts. Snape couldn't get over it because he disliked him, but at the same time, he felt bad about having cut him, imo. It all just added to Snape's confused feelings. Hence the doe.

I agree with The_Green_Woods and the others on this one, Wick. I've never once thought Dumbledore was referring to physical scars here, I thought it was clear he was referring to emotional wounds, i.e. that Severus could never get over his anger and hatred at James.

Originally Posted by eliza101

We cannot just assume that. It was probably the first time she heard the word come out of his mouth. IMO Lily would not have under any circumstances tolerated such a racial slur spoken in her presence, in reference to herself or any other Muggleborn witch/wizard. We don't even know if there were any other Muggleborn at Hogwarts when she was attending. Snape was very careful in choosing his words when around her. We see that when they are small children and we see it on the train. She does however state that she had been making excuses for him for years to her other friends. That was probably what she was excusing, that and his love of the Dark Arts.

Well, she did say that Severus called everyone else of her birth 'Mudblood' and 'why should she be any different?' ...

[Kat_Suki]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well in the same place that we read about what James may or may not have done when the scene ended. . All we know is that Lily was angry. She yelled at Snape, then James (even though he was trying to defend her) and then she marched away. She was humiliated, and feeling degraded because no one likes a racial slur thrown at them - and it is worse when it is someone people have seen you being kind to before, but not many others are kind to them - then it just makes you feel stupid.

It's an interesting juxtaposition. On one hand you have Severus humiliated and lashing out at his 'defender', Lily Evans; and on the other you have Lily hurt and humiliated lashing out at her would-be defender, James Potter.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Well, she did say that Severus called everyone else of her birth 'Mudblood' and 'why should she be any different?' ...

It could very well be that she had just been told that by her friends. We don't know. It's fun to speculate but that is all that is possible. Perhaps Snape went around calling people 'Mudblood' all the time in Lily's presence, perhaps he bit his tongue so that the word never came out of his mouth, Either way it's speculation.