Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I respectfully disagree. They were four friends and the other two's presence was a back up and had by a miracle Snape was able to defeat both James and Sirius, I don't think Remus would have stood there watching. He would have stepped in defend his friends.

Well, I disagree. I think it's made clear from canon that Remus really disliked what James and Sirius were doing, even if he wasn't brave enough to challenge them on it. Remus is never once presented as an aggressive, bullying character in canon, ever.

But we should keep away from this subject, I guess.

A bully uses everything and anything he can use againt his victim to make the victim suffer.

Yeah, but there are different degrees of bullying. A person doesn't have to be actively torturing another person 24/7 in order to classify as a bully! One incident of bullying is enough to make anybody a bully.

Had Snape been a bully, he would have used all this against Harry IMO.

I totally agree that Snape did not use those memories he saw in Occlumency against Harry , but I honestly fail to see how that cancels out his behaviour towards Harry at other times.

I give Snape credit where credit is due. Always.

But I am simply not prepared to believe, based on what JKR has said, that his behaviour towards Harry was always an act put on for the benefit of the Slytherins. While his animosity towards Harry certainly helped his double agency I also believe that it was genuine ... based on what I read in the books and on what JKR has said.

Anyways, we should get back to Snape and Lily.

[eliza101]

[quote=Pearl_Took;5185791I give Snape credit where credit is due. Always. [/QUOTE]

I also try to give Snape credit where it is due. If I seem anti Snape it is not deliberate. What I don't like is the inference that Lily is somehow to blame for his choices. Lily in my opinion represents the path not taken by Snape. She is literally the light in the window that he ignored. I also think that he represents something really important in the books and I suppose, to me at least someting important in life as well. The something important, IMO is the power of redemtion.
To deny Severus his sins and very real evil acts is to deny that he redeemed himself. I don't think he was fair to Harry, I don't think he had to act like a bully to the children in his class, there were alternatives to his course of actions. But I also think that he was sorry, genuinely sorry. I use the words redemtion and redeemed a lot in my posts because to me that is what Snape is, The Redeemed Sinner.
The most powerful aspect of Snape's story arc for me is his penitance and if it is not acknowledged that he sinned there can be no redemption. Also I do not require a perfect Snape to admire him, I like him much better with his snarkiness, I always picture him with a hair shirt on under all that black clothes.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by eliza101

I also try to give Snape credit where it is due. If I seem anti Snape it is not deliberate.

What I don't like is the inference that Lily is somehow to blame for his choices.

I don't like it either.

Lily in my opinion represents the path not taken by Snape. She is literally the light in the window that he ignored.

Beautifully put. I really like the rest of your post too.

The most powerful aspect of Snape's story arc for me is his penitance and if it is not acknowledged that he sinned there can be no redemption. Also I do not require a perfect Snape to admire him, I like him much better with his snarkiness, I always picture him with a hair shirt on under all that black clothes.

Hairshirt! (I like him with snark as well. )

[jennymac]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

He used Sectumsempra on James. In SWM we saw two spells that Snape created: Sectumsempra and Levicorpus.

there is no canon evidence he ever used this curse against james. if there is, i've overlooked it and i would very much appreciate the page numbers where he used the curse on james or sirius, please. the only mention i can remember was when remus said it was his specialty, but there was no mention of who he targeted. i took this to mean during his death-eater days in general.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Snape bullied back and so the 'emotional' element would be the same for all. It doesn't matter what the final tally is, that strains the emotions of all involved, imo (note Sirius' equivalent adult reactions to Snape). So I conclude he must have been indicating what I proposed.

self defense is not bullying. nor is there any canon to say that he even had a chance to fight back, or to say that he was a bully to them otherwise. if snape targeted any of them on purpose during his death-eater days, that's only speculation, and its understandable because of the "emotional scars" james and sirius inflicted on him. they brought it on themselves. is it right, or logical? maybe not. but that's what emotional scars do to a person. they are not the type of thing that heal, which was my original argument, one that you argued against. if sirius hates snape for fighting him back, sirius has only himself and james to blame for making snape a more bitter and angry person. had they not bullied him, snape may have been a better person, with a little help from lily. and IMO, snape sees it exactly like this, that they brought it on themselves and that james and sirius got what they deserved. i do not believe he feels any remorse for any speculative physical scars he may have left on them.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

If there was a love affair to lose, I would agree, but all Snape had with Lily was a childhood friendship that evolved into tentative teenage friendliness, imo.

there does not need to be a love affair to feel the affects of someone you love leaving your life. lily was no longer his friend, due to his own words; it scarred him, and those emotions did not heal.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

His continuing emotions were unrequited and based on imagination, imo. He didn't lose Lily romantically to anyone; she never loved him romantically and if she had never dated or married anyone at all after their friendship ended, she wouldn't have ended up with Snape anyway, imo.

that's all debatable. we don't actually know very much about lily's character, so she's really in the eye of the beholder. here's what jkr had to say about snape/lily.

Originally Posted by jkr, leaky cauldron/mugglenet interview - part 3 - july 16, 05

MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?
JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.
http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/...t-anelli-3.htm

Originally Posted by jkr, bloomsbury online chat, july 30, 07

Jaclyn: Did Lily ever have feelings back for Snape?
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathsome people and acts.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/bo...tdh#James_Lily

imo, her interviews on the books are as good as canon.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

So in answer to your question, if I were in Snape's shoes: No. Losing Lily as a friend at 16 and seeing her start to date someone I hated a year later and eventually marry them would not scar me.

perhaps i should not have been so personal when i asked those questions. i apologize. the questions were meant to be rhetorical, because yes, there are people who would be DEEPLY scarred by such things. when talking about emotions, logic does not play a role. lol. it would be logical to say that snape should get over it and move on. but people do not get over things that easily.

Originally Posted by CathyWeasley

I agree. You express this point really well!

thank you!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I would respectfully disagree with your opinion that any normal person would struggle to get over those feelings - any normal person would not have those feelings. Normal people don't target babies for death; normal people don't have unrequited love to the point that they remain jealous of the person's husband to the extent that they mistreat the son of the woman. So Snape had not behaved in a normal fashion, imo, and his response was also abnormal in the wake of all of the devastation he wrought, imo.

it is true that snape is not the epidome of normal, by any means. but to have emotions, and emotional scars IS a normal thing. it is normal for people to feel intense jealousy. it is normal for some people to go insane with this jealousy. it is also normal for love to make us do crazy things that we would not otherwise do.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

the Marauders - following them around, 7th year at every opportunity, creating a nasty curse just to use on them which became his specialty

as i said above to ComicBookWorm, there is no canon evidence that he ever used the sectesempra curse against james or sirius, and if there is, i would like to see the page numbers please. surely, if he had ever used this curse at school he would have been expelled from hogwarts. you mentioned before that the curse leaves lasting scars and is not easy to heal, therefore it would not go unnoticed by the hogwarts staff. and, if we speculate that he used it during his DE days, that was after being bullied for 7 long years at school. 7 year is a long time to build up hatred against someone, and not easy to undo.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Snape likely was at a disadvantage at times, but since he fueled the enemy relations, it is hard to feel sympathy for his plight. In other words, if he had left them alone, they may have returned the favor

i'm afraid i don't understand your reasoning here. snape was not the one to start the fued, james and sirius did by picking on him the first day on the hogwarts express. they did it for fun and very obviously did it again, as lily calls them bullying toerags. but she does not call snape a bully, only obsessed, and there is no canon evidence that he ever fought them back at all. i do feel much sympathy for snape. i feel sympathy for anyone who is bullied unjustly, and he was. he did nothing to either of them; they started everything.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

"Emotional wounds" is a turn of phrase, something one cannot physically see - so Dumbledore would have to specify if he referred to emotions. Otherwise, his plain meaning would be open wounds and we know that is what Snape inflicted on the Harry's dad (see SWM), whereas the reverse is not true based on the canon we have. Hence my interpretation works well with respect to Dumbledore's words; at least in the west.

i don't understand what you mean about "emotional wounds." first, why is it that dumbledore must be talking about something you can physically see? secondly, it IS something that you can physically see. it is something that manifests itself in the way you talk and behave to, or in front of, the people around you. it is easy to see when a human being is in pain, there does not have to be a sign on their back. you mentioned earlier that snape was not a normal human being - what made him so? why did he become the person that he was? there does not have to be specification to understand that this is what dumbledore is talking about. we do not know that snape inflicted harry's dad with physical wounds - we assume, which is not canon. we do know that james teased and tormented snape and married the woman snape loved - all of which is enough to drive even a normal human being insane, and which DID leave emotional wounds, manifesting as his attitude toward harry and anyone he is friends with, and also driving him to tell voldemort about the prophecy with no regard to james' or harry's lives. so i will respectfully disagree that your interpretation works well.

[DigificWriter]

Addressing the issue of Sectumsempra being used against James, the spell is never named outright, but during the events of that fateful June day in 1976, we do see Snape cast a non-verbal spell against James whose effects are similar to those caused by Sectumsempra. It would probably take official confirmation from JKR one way or another to convince some people, but the similarity between the spell that gives James a cut on the face in SWM and the Sectumsempra spell is enough to convince me that they are one and the same spell, or at least variations of the same spell.

I'm kind of surprised by this whole debate over what Dumbledore meant when he said that some wounds run too deep to heal, since, like many others, I thought the meaning of his words couldn't be clearer: he was referring to why Snape was the way he was. JKR started Snape out as a very hateful and spiteful character, and, over the course of the series, showed us why; she also showed us that, despite being spiteful, hateful, bitter, and vindictive, Snape was also noble... noble enough to protect the son of one of the men for whom his hatred and spite had never faded. Snape clearly has deep emotional wounds (his calling Lily a Mudblood in anger and humiliation and the resultant fracturing of their friendship constituting his worst memory when he - as a Death Eater and double agent - would have seen and done things much worse is the best example of this fact, as is his treatment of Harry and other students). His deep emotional issues also manifest themselves in his treatment of Lupin; he held Lupin responsible for James and Sirius's behavior, even though Lupin never actually physically joined James and Sirius in bullying him; Lupin was guilty by association for being James and Sirius's friend, and Harry was the near-perfect embodiment of the man whose tormenting had pushed him into a place where he lost his temper and set off a chain of events which shattered his only source of true happiness, and who later physically stole the source of that happiness from him by falling in love with Lily.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by jennymac

there is no canon evidence he ever used this curse against james. if there is, i've overlooked it and i would very much appreciate the page numbers where he used the curse on james or sirius, please. the only mention i can remember was when remus said it was his specialty, but there was no mention of who he targeted. i took this to mean during his death-eater days in general...ecetera

Well this is the Snape and Lily thread, so this discussion is off topic. But I respect your view, it is just vastly distinct from mine. Since I feel mine is canon and I don't feel that your view encompasses the entirety of the canon - and likely the converse is also true , it would be pointless to continue in a different thread, imo. It would be best if we simply agree to disagree on our distinct views.

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

Harry was the near-perfect embodiment of the man whose tormenting had pushed him into a place where he lost his temper and set off a chain of events which shattered his only source of true happiness, and who later physically stole the source of that happiness from him by falling in love with Lily.

I think Snape's viewpoint with respect to Lily was somewhat off kilter in that regard because she didn't date his enemy for a year. Yet we are told she was popular, so she was likely dating others. During that time, Snape had a good opportunity to turn his life around, but apparently he didn't wish to do so. Thus, of course Lily would get on with her life and who she chose to be with was really no concern of Snape's at that point, imo. Because if he truly loved her, I feel he would have tried to find the value in what she had said to him. It wasn't like she was telling him to be evil, she was saying just the opposite - and something he came to agree with later. So he had the potential to see it at that point, imo, but he was simply unwilling to do so at that time.

But I disagree that Snape called Lily a Mudblood as a result of the hex war, during which she was defending him. There would be all the reason in the world to lash out at his enemies, but none at all to lash out at Lily on the face. So in my judgment, Snape became jealous and that is why his anger was directed at Lily - it had nothing to do with hex waring because he engaged in that all the time, imo. First he struck with his Sectumsempra and then turned on Lily as well; to me it is academic that jealousy was behind his wrath when he called her the prejudice term because I can't see any other reason for him to want to hurt her (and he knew it would hurt her, imo.) Snape went on to do much torment of his own; of his enemies, as a death eater and later to the children at Hogwarts, imo. That never ceased, but his viewpoint on evil did change and I really think it had little to do with Lily. I think that was guidance and example of Dumbledore and the other Hogwarts professors.

[DigificWriter]

I can see part of what you're saying, wickedwickedboy, but to reject the idea that Lily was the primary motivator behind Snape's actions for the Order and on Harry's behalf is to reject what JKR herself has said, both within the text and in interviews.

I also think that to say that Snape meant to call Lily a Mudblood is to cast aside all of the evidences to the contrary. JKR shows us a picture of a teenage Snape who is deeply insecure, which is mainly the result of a fractured home life and the near-constant torment he faced from James and Sirius. I think a lot of people tend to forget about Snape's insecurities when analysing why he said what he said; I don't believe that the canon supports the idea that Snape calling Lily a 'Mudblood' was a conscious decision; it just slipped out (although the very fact that he would use the word at all does say a lot about just how far he'd started to slip towards the 'dark side' at the time). I know that I myself have said some pretty hurtful things - even things just as offensive as the word 'Mudblood' - in anger to people that I love and care about deeply, even people who weren't directly involved in what was going on at the time, so I can fully see how Snape could have lashed out at Lily when she wasn't doing anything except trying to help him... sometimes anger can blind you to kindness and make you do or say things that you later regret. The 'Mudblood incident' was clearly one of those times; the problem was that Snape tried to make up with Lily at a time when she herself was still angry and hurt, and that he apparently never tried again, letting his insecurities and self-doubts get the best of him and drive him even deeper into the arms of people like Mulciber, Avery, and others who were supportive of Voldemort's ideas and ideals.

[Elisabetta611]

Alrighty then, here's what I think.

Let me start out my analysis with two things. First of all, having been bullied in school myself (For two years, till I switched and suddenly was popular, go figure!) I know some of the things Severus went through and, also, I know the effects paternal neglect (If not abuse) can have on a sensitive child. (Allow me not to elaborate on that, owl me if you want to know further details.) And, Nr. 2, with a song I feel fits the Severus/Lily/Harry angle. The song is called "Hand of Sorrow" by a fave band of mine: Within Temptation

The lyrics:

The child without a name grew up to be the hand
To watch you, to shield you, or kill on demand
The choice he'd made he could not comprehend
His blood a grim secret they had to commend

He's torn between his honor and the true love of his life
He prayed for both but was denied

So many dreams were broken and so much was sacrificed
Was it worth the ones we loved and had to leave behind
So many years have past, who are the noble and the wise?
Will all our sins be justified?

The curse of his powers tormented his life
Obeying the crown was a sinister crime
His soul was tortured by love and by pain
He surely would flee, but the oath made him stay

He's torn between his honor and the true love of his life
He prayed for both but was denied

So many dreams were broken and so much was sacrificed
Was it worth the ones we loved and had to leave behind
So many years have past, who are the noble and the wise?
Will all our sins be justified?

Please forgive me for the sorrow
For leaving you in fear
For the dreams we had to silence
That's all they'll ever be
Still I'll be the hand that saves you
Though you'll not see that it is me

So many dreams were broken and so much was sacrificed
Was it worth the ones we loved and had to leave behind
So many years have past, who are the noble and the wise?
Will all our sins be justified?

Now with that explained, here are my answers to the questions.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Well, for one thing his social skills were (and remain) seriously underdeveloped. He obviously never knew the love of parents (Something no child should live without, the fabulous fan fic writer Fabula Rasa wrote a heartwrenching background story for Severus in her stories, I.E. Repechage and Misericorde) and due to this sad aspect of his early childhood he was unable to reach out, make friends and forge connections, even to those he loved (Lily) and respected (Dumbledore). I believe what drew him to Lily was her kindness and cheerful disposition. Would he have approached her had she not been a witch? I believe so. Her being magical was the turning point, a safe connection that may make it easier to approach her. (And boy, did it backfire at first!) Neglected by those who were supposed to love and cherish him he found what he had been looking for in someone who shared one of his major characteristics and abilities. And, over time, it worked. His knowledge sparked an interest too tempting for Lily to resist. Her lack of knowledge made him feel secure around her and as long as that lasted their relationship was not endangered.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

See above. She was seeking answers he was able to provide. He, on the other hand, needed someone to look up to him, to value his opinions and to listen to what he had to say. What better cure for loneliness than someone who'll listen, starry-eyed and transfixed, to what you regard to be essential? It's hard to tell whether or not she'd have been as friendly if circumstances had been different but, personally, I believe that she'd have been kind to him. As far as I can tell it wasn't in Lily's nature to overlook someone in need of affection.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

Difficult question indeed. One must look at what the attraction was in the first place. In Lily's case it was knowledge of something she previously could not explain. In Severus' case it was the very human need to be appreciated, looked upon with kindness and merely be liked. Every word he said to her prior to attending Hogwarts was to put her fears and doubts at rest. Did something else play a role? Did they have more in common than magic? Hard to tell since everything past that initial stage of bonding is about conflicts, jealousy, disapproval, the Dark Arts and a love that was not returned (on the same level). Why did he love her? Because, I think, she was everything he was not. Easy on the eyes, socially gifted, well liked by everyone who knew her and the first (and only?) person who showed him affection without wanting something in return. He lacked the confidence that came to her naturally. Without knowing it he relied on her to always be there (Ergo the very obsessive need to have her all to himself and the violent reaction to anyone who may disrupt their bond) and he just could not fathom that that could ever change.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Well, being sorted into rivaling houses certainly did not help. In the end it was a question of principles and loyalty. Severus, being impressionable, felt accepted in Slytherin. At the same time he wanted to maintain his relationship with Lily. You might as well ask for Harry and Draco being best friends. Lily's (rather cruel) explanation of having made excuses for him all these years certainly shows her reluctance to stick to their original fondness of each other, as well as Severus' inability to take her feelings into account when hanging out with future Death Eaters shows his struggle to being true to what he believes in as well as nurturing their friendship. In the end a clash was sure to happen sooner or later and the Mudblood insult was the straw that broke the camel's back. I've always found it rather puzzling to see a forgiving soul like Lily being so hard on a friend who is begging her so desperately to forgive him. But taking everything into account I cannot blame her. At the same time I can understand Severus' anger. Boys that age want to fight their own fights and not be defended by a girl. Silly as that may sound, it's natural and normal. Their natures were just so different, at the same time they have one thing in common: devotion and loyalty. (Which, in Severus' case, came too late) His bravery was triggered by losing her, that shows where his true loyalties lie. It's tragic that it took such drastic events to reveal it.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't think that either house changed them that drastically. Lily was a natural Gryffindor. Just as Severus was a natural Slytherin. (Neither being bad per se) I just cannot see Snape being sorted into Gryffindor. Not only would the Marauders have made his life a living hell (Moreso than they already did) but his qualities (Despite his courage) were more Slytherin than Gryffindor. Neither could I imagine Lily in Slytherin. Certainly, Severus would have been there to support her but she'd have been miserable in that house. And yes, I believe their friendship would have changed just as drastically had they been sorted into the same house. Severus would not have found acceptance (The thing he needed most) in Gryffindor, just like Lily would have been abhorred by the idea of spending every day in the company of future Death Eaters. Would being sorted into a different house have stopped Severus from being fascinated with the Dark Arts and the wish to join The Dark Lord? No, I don't think so. Much like the members of sects, Lord Voldemort's circle gave him what he regarded to be acceptance, the feeling of being important and powerful. A bubble that tragically burst into his face the day Voldy chose to kill the Potters. (Very much like a Greek Tragedy)

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

A combination of things. I do not believe it was the Mudblood insult. (May have been the last straw though) Their principles and loyalties clashed everywhere where it mattered. While Severus was willing to apologize to her time and time again it was his decision to follow the Dark Path that she could not forgive. Had it just been a slip of the tongue I'm sure Lily would have forgiven him in time. But this stood for everything they believed in. It is also one thing to be interested in the Dark Arts and the determination to actually use them. Much like being interested in Serial Killers doesn't make you one immediately. There just comes a time where you cannot follow a friend who's descending into darkness. I do believe that Lily remained troubled by this but in the end she made the right decision. And this is another turning point. Here Severus could have kissed the Dark Arts Goodbye and showed Lily that their friendship mattered more to him than Lord Voldemort. And while friendship stands for supporting each other in good times as well as bad ones, supporting him in this would be like supporting a drug addict when it comes to getting his next shot. This wasn't a matter of opinion but a matter of right and wrong. And Severus realizes that he made the wrong choice only when it's too late to turn back. Lily obviously cared for him enough to defend him as much as she could. Each made a decision. And we all know the tragic result.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

See above.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

Ah, the most interesting what if of them all. I definitely believe that both a romantic as well as an enduring friendly attachment could have been possible. But then there'd be no story.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

I can see part of what you're saying, wickedwickedboy, but to reject the idea that Lily was the primary motivator behind Snape's actions for the Order and on Harry's behalf is to reject what JKR herself has said, both within the text and in interviews.

Ah you mis-understood me. I think Snape was totally motivated to change sides, be on hand at Hogwarts and spy, with Lily in mind and based on his promise to do so in Lily's honor. I was talking about his change in viewpoint (which Lily was not around to help) - like not watching people die if he could save them - his new train of thought I feel was brought about through his association with Dumbledore and the professors for that 15 plus or minus years.

I also think that to say that Snape meant to call Lily a Mudblood is to cast aside all of the evidences to the contrary. JKR shows us a picture of a teenage Snape who is deeply insecure, which is mainly the result of a fractured home life and the near-constant torment he faced from James and Sirius. I think a lot of people tend to forget about Snape's insecurities when analysing why he said what he said; I don't believe that the canon supports the idea that Snape calling Lily a 'Mudblood' was a conscious decision; it just slipped out (although the very fact that he would use the word at all does say a lot about just how far he'd started to slip towards the 'dark side' at the time). I know that I myself have said some pretty hurtful things - even things just as offensive as the word 'Mudblood' - in anger to people that I love and care about deeply, even people who weren't directly involved in what was going on at the time, so I can fully see how Snape could have lashed out at Lily when she wasn't doing anything except trying to help him... sometimes anger can blind you to kindness and make you do or say things that you later regret. The 'Mudblood incident' was clearly one of those times; the problem was that Snape tried to make up with Lily at a time when she herself was still angry and hurt, and that he apparently never tried again, letting his insecurities and self-doubts get the best of him and drive him even deeper into the arms of people like Mulciber, Avery, and others who were supportive of Voldemort's ideas and ideals.

I don't use racist based insults ever, so I can't relate to that myself. I don't see a difference in people on that basis. So the term is so outside of my realm of thinking in terms of others, that I see Snape using it as - noting the difference, internalizing that difference, making a judgment as to its validity and then using it against others. In the case of Lily, he all of those things, but at the judgment stage, he made an exception for her, imo. So when he was angry at her, he used it in all of his wrath. That is how I see it.

I understand what you are saying - things you don't want to say come out in anger and jealousy, etc., but no matter how angry some people get, they simply won't use a racial slur (like Harry, James, Ron and like myself in real life). But Snape was used to saying it to others and he knew inside that Lily was one also. The thing is, in the situation, Lily wasn't speaking to Snape at all - she told the others to put him down and leave him alone. She didn't say anything that would cause him to make a "slip" in her direction. So there is no reason for him to have lashed out at her when others were around to lash out at - and the others were speaking to him directly at the time (Btw: if he irrationally lashed out without thinking, then to me it would be even worse and I would consider him an even more dangerous friend; as it was he could curse her in his anger as he was not opposed to dark curses, but if he behaved irrationally on top of it, that would be a very scary situation, imo). To me, the situation makes it clear that Snape was jealous and became angry at Lily because he feared she fancied James (as he had indicated in their talk the memory before that one) - so I cop Snape a break in that regard.

Additionally, he spoke in 3rd party, which made things doubly demeaning, imo; it is as if she didn't exist at all - and yet his pure blood enemy is worth the time to express his opinion to. So I feel Lily would feel quite shamed and degraded by the term used against her and by the manner in which it was stated.

Finally, I would totally go for the idea that it was a "slip" if he had turned on her and yelled 'Mudblood!' and then his eyes grew big or he covered his mouth with his hand or made some type of reaction. But apparently he didn't as Lily did not believe it was a slip either and neither did James, who told him to apologize. He said: "I don't need any help from a filthy little Mudblood like her" - I am afraid I find that to be way too many words used to categorize it as a "slip".

[Elisabetta611]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I understand what you are saying - things you don't want to say come out in anger and jealousy, etc., but no matter how angry some people get, they simply won't use a racial slur (like Harry, James, Ron and like myself in real life). But Snape was used to saying it to others and he knew inside that Lily was one also. The thing is, in the situation, Lily wasn't speaking to Snape at all - she told the others to put him down and leave him alone. She didn't say anything that would cause him to make a "slip" in her direction. So there is no reason for him to have lashed out at her when others were around to lash out at - and the others were speaking to him directly at the time (if he irrationally lashed out without thinking, then to me it would be even worse and I would consider him an even more dangerous friend; as it was he could curse her in his anger as he was not opposed to dark curses, but if he behaved irrationally on top of it, that would be a very scary situation, imo). To me, the situation makes it clear that Snape was jealous and became angry at Lily because he feared she fancied James (as he had indicated in their talk the memory before that one) - so I cop Snape a break in that regard.

Additionally, he spoke in 3rd party, which made things doubly demeaning, imo; it is as if she didn't exist at all - and yet his pure blood enemy is worth the time to express his opinion to. So I feel Lily would feel quite shamed and degraded by the term used against her and by the manner in which it was stated.

Finally, I would totally go for the idea that it was a "slip" if he had turned on her and yelled 'Mudblood!' and then his eyes grew big or he covered his mouth with his hand or made some type of reaction. But apparently he didn't as Lily did not believe it was a slip either and neither did James, who told him to apologize. He said: "I don't need any help from a filthy little Mudblood like her" - I am afraid I find that to be way too many words used to categorize it as a "slip".

I hope you don't mind me joining in this discussion for a bit. My explanation for the Mudblood incident is a moment of rashness and shame. Boys that age want to fight their own battles and not be defended by a girl, esp. not the girl they secretly like. It may sound silly and it certainly was foolish pride but rather than helping him she shamed him in front of his peers, no matter how good her intentions were. I don't think he'd ever have harmed her with curses or hexes however. Saying something without thinking is something loads of teens do (As well as adults) but it doesn't mean they'd actually back up their words with actions. Just my two cents, of course.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by eliza101

Lily in my opinion represents the path not taken by Snape.

I don't think Lily is in any way responsible for Snape's choices. If my posts are coming across so, I apologise for that.

Lily was not Snape's friend from the werewolf memory IMO. She had already made her choice to step away from Snape. That was why she was callous about Snape's almost death in the tunnel IMO.

And I also don't agree Snape alone was to blame for the break up; because I don't blame anyone for the choice Lily made. She wanted out of a friendship for some reason or the other (and I disagree about the reasons, I feel Lily fell in love with James and I think that's possible too, Ginny was in love with Harry forever and Hermione was sure of her feelings for Ron very early too; so I don't think it is farfetched to say that Lily fell in love, but she also did not like some of the things James did; her speech to James in the SWM is all about that; what she hates in him and implying what he should do fopr her to go out with him) and I know others feel that Snape's DEship and calling Lily mudblood was what was responsible, so I disagree on those points.

For me Lily comes across as a better person if she chose to end a friendship she could not handle or balance with the person she had fallen for.

I am sure she would have had nothing to do with Snape if Snape had gone on to become a DE after their 7th year or if Snape practised dark magic in School or outside on others and Lily came to knbow about it.

But at the time of the SWM, Lily's own words don't accuse Snape of doing either.

If Lily after accusing Snape of calling every other muggle born mudblood and yet breaks off onlt after she is called one, I think that lowers Lily more than anything else in my eyes.

I am trying to see Lily, who is not a favourite character of mine through Snape's eyes. For to Snape unlike me, she represented something amazing; even when she broke up with him, even when she went on to marry James, even when she was friendly to Sirius, Snape had shared something with this girl, there was something in Lily that could inspire him so; that could change a DE who cared less about a baby he was killing along with its parents when he took the Prophecy to Voldemort, to come running in terror begging Dumbledore to save her.

I don't see that Lily in the books; but she was there and thre must have been something dynamic, something wonderful about her and what Snape and Lily gave each other and shared with each other IMO.

In that light, to say Lily broke off with Snape because he called her a mudblood, when she was okay being friends when he called others (either she heard it or came ot know of it; I mean), to say she need not enquire about Snape's near death, because after all he was standing there right in front of her all fine and healthy pulls her down IMO.

The only place I think Lily fell short in canon if I were to take my opinion that Lily fell for James and so broke off with him (then her attitude in the werewolf memory and the SWM makes sense to me) was how she broke off with Snape. I think she could have handled that better; I think Snape deserved to know from her that they no longer had a friendship; but I think Lily could not tell Snape that she had fallen for James and so kept quiet.

I also think that he represents something really important in the books and I suppose, to me at least someting important in life as well. The something important, IMO is the power of redemtion.

To Snape that was what she was.

posted by eliza101
To deny Severus his sins and very real evil acts is to deny that he redeemed himself. I don't think he was fair to Harry, I don't think he had to act like a bully to the children in his class, there were alternatives to his course of actions. But I also think that he was sorry, genuinely sorry. I use the words redemtion and redeemed a lot in my posts because to me that is what Snape is, The Redeemed Sinner.

Have answered in the Snape thread.

The most powerful aspect of Snape's story arc for me is his penitance and if it is not acknowledged that he sinned there can be no redemption. Also I do not require a perfect Snape to admire him, I like him much better with his snarkiness, I always picture him with a hair shirt on under all that black clothes.

Snape was not perfect at all; he was a man who lived burdened by his evil acts desperately hoping and wishing every day, every moment that he could turn back the clock. But he was also a brilliant man and Harry is not wrong at all when he says Snape was the bravest man; for me he was a good and a noble man because he was able to do the highest thing, for which I admire him; he was able to look at himself without justification and face himself and his wrongs without explanation of any sort for any action of his IMO.

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

His deep emotional issues also manifest themselves in his treatment of Lupin; he held Lupin responsible for James and Sirius's behavior, even though Lupin never actually physically joined James and Sirius in bullying him; Lupin was guilty by association for being James and Sirius's friend,

His resentment with Lupin was that Lupin was a Prefect at that time and he should have stopped the SWM happening at all.

[DigificWriter]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I don't use racist based insults ever, so I can't relate to that myself. I don't see a difference in people on that basis. So the term is so outside of my realm of thinking in terms of others, that I see Snape using it as - noting the difference, internalizing that difference, making a judgment as to its validity and then using it against others. In the case of Lily, he all of those things, but at the judgment stage, he made an exception for her, imo. So when he was angry at her, he used it in all of his wrath. That is how I see it.

I understand what you are saying - things you don't want to say come out in anger and jealousy, etc., but no matter how angry some people get, they simply won't use a racial slur (like Harry, James, Ron and like myself in real life). But Snape was used to saying it to others and he knew inside that Lily was one also. The thing is, in the situation, Lily wasn't speaking to Snape at all - she told the others to put him down and leave him alone. She didn't say anything that would cause him to make a "slip" in her direction. So there is no reason for him to have lashed out at her when others were around to lash out at - and the others were speaking to him directly at the time (Btw: if he irrationally lashed out without thinking, then to me it would be even worse and I would consider him an even more dangerous friend; as it was he could curse her in his anger as he was not opposed to dark curses, but if he behaved irrationally on top of it, that would be a very scary situation, imo). To me, the situation makes it clear that Snape was jealous and became angry at Lily because he feared she fancied James (as he had indicated in their talk the memory before that one) - so I cop Snape a break in that regard.

Additionally, he spoke in 3rd party, which made things doubly demeaning, imo; it is as if she didn't exist at all - and yet his pure blood enemy is worth the time to express his opinion to. So I feel Lily would feel quite shamed and degraded by the term used against her and by the manner in which it was stated.

Finally, I would totally go for the idea that it was a "slip" if he had turned on her and yelled 'Mudblood!' and then his eyes grew big or he covered his mouth with his hand or made some type of reaction. But apparently he didn't as Lily did not believe it was a slip either and neither did James, who told him to apologize. He said: "I don't need any help from a filthy little Mudblood like her" - I am afraid I find that to be way too many words used to categorize it as a "slip".

Keep in mind, though, that he did try to apologize later that night, and that JKR classified the 'Mudblood incident' as being his worst memory. All of that indicates - to me, at least - that he was angry and humiliated, and lashed out at an innocent bystander, who just so happened to be A) his best friend and B) trying to help him at the time.

[Pearl_Took]

Thanks for explaining all that, TGW.

It's clear that you and I will never agree about Lily. I like her as a character, and you don't, and that of course is fine. You're not obligated to like her.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If Lily after accusing Snape of calling every other muggle born mudblood and yet breaks off only after she is called one, I think that lowers Lily more than anything else in my eyes.

I don't believe that Lily was OK with him calling anyone 'Mudblood', not just her. In fact, she makes that plain. She may have told him in the strongest possible terms to stop calling others 'Mudblood', and he could have ignored her. We don't know: we're not told. But we do see that Severus was pretty good at tuning out stuff from Lily that he just didn't want to hear. I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt and don't think less of her because she broke off the friendship when he turned on her. I think someone in her position is quite justified to break off a friendship if the friend hurls a racial insult at them.

The only place I think Lily fell short in canon if I were to take my opinion that Lily fell for James and so broke off with him (then her attitude in the werewolf memory and the SWM makes sense to me) was how she broke off with Snape. I think she could have handled that better; I think Snape deserved to know from her that they no longer had a friendship; but I think Lily could not tell Snape that she had fallen for James and so kept quiet.

But when Snape came to Gryffindor Tower to plead with Lily, he knew that their friendship was on the rocks. He should have known why their friendship had been hanging on a thread by some time, because Lily had already let him know her deep unhappiness that he was hanging out with people like Mulciber and Avery. He knew, in short, that he'd blown it, and that he was going to be very lucky if Lily forgave him.

What she wanted from him was a reassurance that he was not planning to be a Death Eater.

And, as we see, he could not give her that reassurance.

So, that was the end.

I agree that Lily's growing attraction to James was a factor that complicated things and made them explosive. But I don't think that Lily's feelings for James should be allowed to obscure the other, very genuine, reasons for her unhappiness with Severus and why in the end she walked away from the friendship.

In short, I don't accept that Lily dumped Severus as a friend just because she chose James over him. For one thing, James's values and concerns (i.e. combatting pureblood prejudice) were far more compatible with Lily's values and concerns (she had a pretty vested interest in combatting pureblood bigotry as she was on the receiving end of it!) And secondly, I think that her concerns about the direction in which Sev's life was going were real and genuine. That's how I interpret the canon.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

Keep in mind, though, that he did try to apologize later that night, and that JKR classified the 'Mudblood incident' as being his worst memory. All of that indicates - to me, at least - that he was angry and humiliated, and lashed out at an innocent bystander, who just so happened to be A) his best friend and B) trying to help him at the time.

Well yes, I would imagine it was a very few moments later that Snape felt horrible for what he had done - right after Lily told James off. Imo, he was feeling jealous and that caused him to feel angry at Lily because he perceived that she fancied James (which JKR also said was true, so Snape was not 'imagining things'). But when she told the Gryffindor off, Snape allowed himself to believe he might be mistaken, just as he had done in the previous memory - that is my take on it.

I do not feel the canon was written in a way to show that Snape rashly lashed out at Lily. He was not speaking to her, he was speaking "about" her to someone else. He might lash out and say he didn't require help from a girl (also a negative comment, but usually kids simply mean it in terms of boys generally having more strength rather than speaking to inequality). But there was no need to inform his opponent that he didn't require help from a "Mudblood". He knew that it would be hurtful for both his opponent and Lily to hear it, imo. I felt that Snape didn't consider Lily a friend in that very moment; he considered her treacherous, imo.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I don't believe that Lily was OK with him calling anyone 'Mudblood', not just her. In fact, she makes that plain. She may have told him in the strongest possible terms to stop calling others 'Mudblood', and he could have ignored her. We don't know: we're not told. But we do see that Severus was pretty good at tuning out stuff from Lily that he just didn't want to hear. I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt and don't think less of her because she broke off the friendship when he turned on her. I think someone in her position is quite justified to break off a friendship if the friend hurls a racial insult at them.

I disputed this as the reason of the break up, only because Lily broke off with Snape for calling her a mudblood; my argument was if she felt so deeply aboiut this, why did she not break off when he called others mudblood? And this line of argument is for nothing except to say that Lily broke off for reasons other than what she stated on page IMO.

But when Snape came to Gryffindor Tower to plead with Lily, he knew that their friendship was on the rocks.

I think he knew the friendship was over from Lily's side, but she had not formally ended it and perhaps he felt there was hope as long as she did not say the words he knew she felt. Plus, I think Snape wanted to say Sorry! Lily was one muggleborn, he never saw as a mudblood; and I think he wanted to say that to her.

What she wanted from him was a reassurance that he was not planning to be a Death Eater.

Even then I don't think that their friendship would have mended.

And, as we see, he could not give her that reassurance.

Well she never let him speak, she came, she spoke and she went away lol IMO.

I agree that Lily's growing attraction to James was a factor that complicated things and made them explosive. But I don't think that Lily's feelings for James should be allowed to obscure the other, very genuine, reasons for her unhappiness with Severus and why in the end she walked away from the friendship.

If she had no feelings for James, I don't think she would have broken off her friendship to Snape; because he was not a DE then, there was still hope for Snape and had she been the best friend she was for all those years, I think she would have helped him.

For one thing, James's values and concerns (i.e. combatting pureblood prejudice) were far more compatible with Lily's values and concerns (she had a pretty vested interest in combatting pureblood bigotry as she was on the receiving end of it!)

I don't know about this. I hope Lily did not choose James because he was against pureblood prejudice or because he was fighting DEs.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I disputed this as the reason of the break up, only because Lily broke off with Snape for calling her a mudblood; my argument was if she felt so deeply aboiut this, why did she not break off when he called others mudblood? And this line of argument is for nothing except to say that Lily broke off for reasons other than what she stated on page IMO.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that this makes Lily shallow.

Or perhaps I can just say that JKR didn't write this very well, or do Lily's character justice.

Plus, I think Snape wanted to say Sorry! Lily was one muggleborn, he never saw as a mudblood; and I think he wanted to say that to her.

That, IMO, would not have been enough for Lily. She didn't just want Severus not to call her a Mudblood -- she didn't want him calling anyone else a Mudblood either.

Even then I don't think that their friendship would have mended.

That is quite possible.

Well she never let him speak, she came, she spoke and she went away lol IMO.

Well, it's up to the reader to decide whether Lily gave Severus a fair chance or not.

If she had no feelings for James, I don't think she would have broken off her friendship to Snape; because he was not a DE then, there was still hope for Snape and had she been the best friend she was for all those years, I think she would have helped him.

Yep ... possibly.

I don't know about this. I hope Lily did not choose James because he was against pureblood prejudice or because he was fighting DEs.

I didn't mean to suggest Lily chose James for solely those reasons. All I was saying was that as an adult couple their values and moral outlook were compatible: they were both devoted to resisting Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I disputed this as the reason of the break up, only because Lily broke off with Snape for calling her a mudblood; my argument was if she felt so deeply aboiut this, why did she not break off when he called others mudblood?

In my view, the reason is because Lily was convincing herself (pretending) that Snape really didn't mean it. That his friends were influencing him in a very negative way to say things that he didn't feel himself. Why do you think that would not be true? She said herself that she was finished pretending. (DH TPT)

I don't know about this. I hope Lily did not choose James because he was against pureblood prejudice or because he was fighting DEs.

Among other reasons I think those were two very important issues for Lily with respect to anyone she dated (not just James). Why so you hope she would not consider those things? I think it is very important to have a similar outlook with those you become romantically involved with. Otherwise, you will be arguing all of the time over the very basic values of your life. JKR said these two were the love of one another's lives and that I feel, is because their basic values were the same. They didn't believe in prejudice, they didn't hold Muggles or Muggleborns as inferior or as a group that should be suppressed; they were against Voldemort and his Death Eaters. So their values related to right and wrong - good and bad - in a moral sense were the same. Then there are lots of other factors too - like a shared sense of humor, compassion, willingness to fight, wanting a family, etc.

But that was the problem with the mere friendship between Lily and Snape - so it couldn't even began to approach a romantic level. They argued over what was right and what was wrong. Snape saw no difference between light and dark magic - and Lily did. Snape held others in prejudice, and Lily didn't. Snape felt that Voldemort was the best road to power, Lily disagreed. They may have had some things they thought the same about (potions is fun - swimming is fun - etc.) but when it came to fundamental values related to good and bad and right and wrong, they were completely on opposite sides of the world. So it would be very difficult for them to enjoy commonalities when those big value differences were always in the way. And in this case they were VERY big because Snape's view was on the path to Voldemort's and the dark lord was killing people based on his view - that is how Lily said she saw it.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Kat_Suki

I'm sorry, I've had white friends that I've dropped simply for making a racial slur about people with the exact same skin color as me - even knowing they weren't lumping me into the catagory as the person they were denigrating. To me that type of behavior is unforgivable and I will not tolerate it; I don't go in for reverse discrimination either, I don't tolerate my black friends using slurs against white's or other ethnicities or religions. If that makes me a bad person to be friends with then so be it, and incidentally I've had to drop more black friends than white, go figure.

bold mine

Kat_Suki's post in defence of Lily dropping Snape for his comment of mudblood; she was not talking my point; but what I wanted to highlight was the bolded part. This is what I was trying to stress when I spoke about Lily and the racial comment.

If a racial slur means so much, Lily would have broken off the first time she knew Snape said it, either hearing it herself or coming to know from others and verifying with Snape IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If a racial slur means so much, Lily would have broken off the first time she knew Snape said it, either hearing it herself or coming to know from others and verifying with Snape IMO.

I would have . But you know how you feel about Snape - very sympathic and understanding of what he was going through based on his background and his influences in Slytherin? Well that is how Lily felt at first too. So she thought he couldn't mean it when he said those things - after all, he was her friend and never said anything like that to her. So with all the sympathy and understanding that you have expressed for Snape, Lily felt that too and wished to help him rather than leave him in the dust because she thought he didn't relly mean it and he could be helped.

[The_Green_Woods]

I would not have dropped Snape as my friend when he called me mudblood under those circumstances.