Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by TGW

Snape bit off that word, so we'd never know if it was "muggle" or "mudblood" IMO.

Minor correction, but he wouldn't have called Petunia a "Mudblood" no matter the circumstances. "Mudblood" is a word for Muggle-borns, not Muggles.

Originally Posted by TGW

I think in this Snape and Sirius were equal.

I'll answer that in the Sirius thread. ^^

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

It was definitely going to be muggle; Petunia wasn't a Mudblood.

Originally Posted by ignisia

Minor correction, but he wouldn't have called Petunia a "Mudblood" no matter the circumstances. "Mudblood" is a word for Muggle-borns, not Muggles.

Got confused!

[lil_snuffles]

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I definatly think that Hogwarts had a major effect on their friendship. Yes, they were still best friends up until 5th year, but their friendship weakend once they entered Hogwarts because they were seperated by houses. As we all know, Gryffindor and Slytherin have been rivals for the longest time. If they had been sorted in the same house, their friendship probably would have been stronger.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by lil_snuffles

If they had been sorted in the same house, their friendship probably would have been stronger.

If they had been sorted into the same house, Lily or Snape's aspirations and personalities would have been different imo, and therefore, yes, I think it would have been easier to hold onto a friendship for them imo. However then they're just different characters imo. I don't think the relationship was ever meant to be with their respective personalities.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

If they had been sorted into the same house, Lily or Snape's aspirations and personalities would have been different imo, and therefore, yes, I think it would have been easier to hold onto a friendship for them imo. However then they're just different characters imo. I don't think the relationship was ever meant to be with their respective personalities.

I would agree; I didn't see the two as having personalities that would have allowed for a relationship beyond anything very short term in the end. Lily didn't seem to go for the vulnerable and insecure type which is what JKR described as Snape's personality and I feel was shown in canon. So even if they were in the same house and everyone was getting along, I feel it would have lasted a month or two at most and then she'd of ended it. In the end I think she'd end up with James anyway - not because they were meant to be and all of that soulmate stuff - but more because she seemed to look for a stronger more secure person as she matured.

[ComicBookWorm]

I don't see the House separation as the reason their friendship failed. It may have made things worse between them, but they never seemed to mesh. That was obvious in every scene they had together, even before Hogwarts. There was always an element of contention or strain.

[Headless_Nick]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

I don't see the House separation as the reason their friendship failed. It may have made things worse between them, but they never seemed to mesh. That was obvious in every scene they had together, even before Hogwarts. There was always an element of contention or strain.

It seemed to me that a large part of the strain was the fact that after they became enrolled at Hogwarts - whether being at the school made a difference or not - they began to take separate paths. Snape, a lonely, unpopular, awkward boy found friendship among those who made him feel strong, powerful, and appreciated - Death Eaters to be - and molded himself so that he would fit in completely. This decision, IMO, may have been, in part, due to the house he was in and might not have happened if he was in another house where the students who surrounded him had different ideals. Lily, however, felt no need to conform herself to standards, least of all Death Eater standards. She was comfortable with who she was, she had friends who liked and accepted her for who she was, etc.

[The_Green_Woods]

From the Lily Potter thread

POA - Owl Post Again 'Peter owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt. When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a bond between them ... and I'm much mistaken if Voldmeort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter.' 'I don't want a bond with Pettigrew!' said Harry. 'He betrayed my parents!' 'This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life.'

This is what I meant. Harry had no inetention of saving Peter's life; he was concerned only about Sirius and Remus whom he did not want to become killers. And yet, Dumbeldore says that Harry created a bond, that magic was at its deepest at its most impenetrable IMO.

The same way; the way Peter begged, Snape begged too of Voldemort, requested him to spare Lily. Voldemort agreed and gave Lily a choice. Lily refused to step aside and was killed after Voldmeort gave her 3 choices to live IMO.

So there was something, call it magic, bond, link or whatever that worked when Voldemort gave Lily a choice. It has to; there has to be something different, something powerful, some bond which would turn Lily's death into a sacrifice when just a few minutes earlier James's death did not harm or hurt Voldemort IMO.

Harry did not care for Peter and yet by his actions Peter benefitted, even though Harry meant to save only for Sirius and Remus; Snape's request kicked off something, because of the desperation, the same kind of desperation that Peter had in POA; Snape had more than desperation when he begged Voldemort IMO, which created a magic that was very deep and at its most impenetrable and which took over and created such a powerful protection when Voldemort broke off his own acceptance of Snape's request and killed Lily; so much that Harry could live through the Avada Kedavra IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

From the Lily Potter thread



This is what I meant. Harry had no inetention of saving Peter's life; he was concerned only about Sirius and Remus whom he did not want to become killers. And yet, Dumbeldore says that Harry created a bond, that magic was at its deepest at its most impenetrable IMO.

But even if you ignore JKR's comment wherein she indicated that no actual magic involved when Harry saved Pettigrew; the situation here is much different. Snape asked Voldemort for Lily's life to be spared and Voldemort killed her instead. See the difference? If Peter had asked Harry to spare his life, and Harry had decided not to, and Remus and Sirius killed Peter, there would be no debt owed. That is what happened with Snape's request. It was not granted because Voldemort basically said "no", and killed Lily, so she didn't owe anything. Further, Lily never asked Snape to spare her like Peter asked Harry. Also, Snape had nothing to do with Liy's decision to remain in front of her baby; Snape wanted her to step aside and be spared. Imo, Snape wanted Harry to die so that Lily would be safe and no longer targeted.

In any case, JKR already said no magic evolved even from Harry saving Peter's life; Harry saving Ginny and Draco's lives; Draco saving Harry's life; James saving Snape's life; Lupin saving Harry's life; Ron saving Harry's life or the trio saving Sirius' life. So none of those desperate instances caused magic to evolve either.

The same way; the way Peter begged, Snape begged too of Voldemort, requested him to spare Lily. Voldemort agreed and gave Lily a choice. Lily refused to step aside and was killed after Voldmeort gave her 3 choices to live IMO.

So there was something, call it magic, bond, link or whatever that worked when Voldemort gave Lily a choice. It has to; there has to be something different, something powerful, some bond which would turn Lily's death into a sacrifice when just a few minutes earlier James's death did not harm or hurt Voldemort IMO. Harry did not care for Peter and yet by his actions Peter benefitted. Even though Harry meant to save only for Sirius and Remus; Snape's request kicked off something, because of the desperation, the same kind of desperation that Peter had in POA. Snape had more than desperation when he begged Voldemort IMO, which created a magic that was very deep and at its most impenetrable and which took over and created such a powerful protection when Voldemort broke off his own acceptance of Snape's request and killed Lily; so much that Harry could live through the Avada Kedavra IMO.

I respect your right to come up with theories, but this one contradicts both JKR and canon, imo so I would have to disagree that it is a possibility. Also, this particular theory, imo, elevates Snape's role in the story at the expense of Lily's sacrifice. If anything approaching that had occurred, I am sure JKR would have included it in one of her many interviews when she spoke of Lily's sacrifice.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

The same way; the way Peter begged, Snape begged too of Voldemort, requested him to spare Lily. Voldemort agreed and gave Lily a choice. Lily refused to step aside and was killed after Voldmeort gave her 3 choices to live IMO.

But Harry did something special for Peter by saving his life. So Peter would owe him for that. It would have been Voldemort doing Snape the favor by saving Lily's life. But he didn't save her life, so no favor happened. But it still wouldn't be a life-debt since Snape didn't Voldemort's life. Protective magic couldn't possibly be generated every time some failed to do a favor for someone else.

Besides, we have no indication that there was any magic generated by Voldemort complying to Snape's request. Snape's role was important, but only as the reason Voldemort gave Lily a chance. We don't need to then further diminish Lily's role in Harry's protection. We have clear canon on this.

[The_Green_Woods]

Okay, assuming Snape had no role to play in Lily's sacrifice,

1) Why did Voldmeort Give 3 chances to Lily to step aside?

2) What was the magic that Lily's sacrifice gave Harry?

3) Did James's death mean nothing, but Lily's everything? Why?

4) Was Lily's death superior to James's? Is a mother's sacrifice greater than a father's?

5) What did Voldemort have with a "mudblood" as he thought of Harry's mother (COS where he says so to harry in the Chamber) that he did not care to kill her? Did he think she was not a threat to him?

6) Why did Voldemort think that as long as Lily was sensible she had nothing to fear?

I don't think there are satisfactory answers in canon unless we take Snape's request into consideration.

And I don't think I am trying to lessen Lily's sacrifice or boost Snape's role by trying to analyze what happened. If you can give me with canon references about what happened that night that Harry was able to survive an AK, I'll only be too glad to accept.

-------------

Harry did not do anything for Peter. He was agreeable to hand over Peter to the dementors to be kissed. Peter escaped because of Lupin, otherwise he would have been kissed. So Harry did not save him; he saved Sirius and Lupin.

And I also don't think I was making a comparison between any 2 people. I was trying to point our that sometimes magic can work even when one does not intend it to.

posted by wwb
Huh? We know the only magic was 'old magic' that occurred due to Lily's sacrifice, because Voldemort gave her a choice to stand aside, but she wouldn't and he killed her.

Why did he give her the choice? and why did he think that Lily had nothing to fear?

The entire post is my opinion only.

[ComicBookWorm]

Snape had a role to play. There just wasn't any magic involved. He was responsible for asking Voldemort to spare Lily. So Voldemort gave Lily a choice. However, Voldemort didn't try too hard since he did zap her. He could have stunned her. He could have immobilized her. He could have levitated her. But he made a small effort and then gave up.

James wasn't given a choice, that's why his sacrifice didn't provide protection. It has nothing to do with a father's love not being as strong as a mother's. The difference was the James wasn't given a choice. JKR explained that in the Mnet/TLC interview. She was very clear about it.

Voldemort did kill Lily, so in the end he did kill a muggleborn that he might have hated. It might have been why he didn't bother to stun her.

We aren't ignoring Snape's role. He was the reason Voldemort gave Lily a choice to live. But there wasn't any magic in that role.

I'm failing to understand the issue about Voldemort thinking Lily had nothing to fear. He was the one that knew he didn't intend to kill her, based on Snape's request. So of course he would think she had nothing to fear.

If there was any other magic involved, we would have learned about it in canon or in one of the several interviews where it was explained.

EDIT: BTW, Snape didn't beg Voldemort for her life. He just made a request. Had he begged it would have tipped Voldemort off about how he felt. And he only couched it in terms of lusting for her, which was the only way Voldemort would probably find acceptable. However, he did beg Dumbledore.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

Snape had a role to play. There just wasn't any magic involved. He was responsible for asking Voldemort to spare Lily. So Voldemort gave Lily a choice. However, Voldemort didn't try too hard since he did zap her. He could have stunned her. He could have immobilized her. He could have levitated her. But he made a small effort and then gave up.

Perhaps this was how it happened. But it was the choice that made Lily's death a sacrifice is what I am trying to say.

And that choice was given by Voldemort because of Snape's request IMO.

Giving a choice by itself should not work any magic. But Lily's death based on that choice worked a magic that made her son survive the AK. James's death did not do so.

While I think Snape's request by itself did not involve any magic, his request was a desperate one; Lily's pleadings were desperate and when Voldemort decided to give Lily the choice, the desperation turned a simple decision into something else; some thing deep and unknowable IMO.

When Lily refused to move away; Voldemort instead of asking her if she wanted to die, which I presume would ahve nullified the magic had she answered in the affirmative, instead killed her after giving her a choice to live; by doing so he made her death the greatest sacrifice. In that sacrifice was her desperation that Harry should not die, backed by Snape's request based on his desperation that Lily should not die IMO.

Lily's death passed a magic to Harry, which protected him against Voldmeort; even his AK's would do nothing IMO.

James wasn't given a choice, that's why his sacrifice didn't provide protection. It has nothing to do with a father's love not being as strong as a mother's. The difference was the James wasn't given a choice. JKR explained that in the Mnet/TLC interview. She was very clear about it.

So if it was the choice which made the death a sacrifice, then why did Voldemort give Lily that choice, which had something in it that could turn a simple choice into a great sacrifice IMO.

He was the reason Voldemort gave Lily a choice to live. But there wasn't any magic in that role.

I agree with this. There was no magic in Snape's request. There was only desperation. The magic came when Voldemort gave Lily a choice IMO.

I'm failing to understand the issue about Voldemort thinking Lily had nothing to fear. He was the one that knew he didn't intend to kill her, based on Snape's request. So of course he would think she had nothing to fear

It went to show that Voldmeort was thinking of allowing Lily to live even before he met her. Which meant that he was considering honouring Snape's request IMO.

If there was any other magic involved, we would have learned about it in canon or in one of the several interviews where it was explained.

Well, this is what I understood from the books.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

So if it was the choice which made the death a sacrifice, then why did Voldemort give Lily that choice, which had something in it that could turn a simple choice into a great sacrifice IMO.

Because he didn't know it would happen. Not only have JKR and Dumbleore told us that, but Voldemort did too when he talked to the DEs at the end of GoF. It had never happened before.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

When Lily refused to move away; Voldemort instead of asking her if she wanted to die, which I presume would ahve nullified the magic had she answered in the affirmative, instead killed her after giving her a choice to live; by doing so he made her death the greatest sacrifice.

There was no magic until she refused. So there was nothing to nullify. In fact the magic didn't really get triggered until he dishonored his offer by killing her.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

It went to show that Voldmeort was thinking of allowing Lily to live even before he met her. Which meant that he was considering honouring Snape's request IMO.

He wouldn't have made the offer for her life if he hadn't wanted to. Of course he was thinking of honoring Snape's request. But like I said before, he didn't put much effort into it, because he killed her when he could have just stunned her or immobilized her.

This is really quite simple. Here is the sequence of events:

1. Snape asks (not begs) Voldemort to spare Lily, telling Voldemort he lusts for her, not telling Voldemort the depth of his feelings.

2. Voldemort kills James. There's no offer for his life, so there is no protection for Harry.

3. Voldemort offers Lily her life since it took no effort to do so. He just wanted Harry dead, so she was unimportant.

4. She refuses to move. He kills her with an AK since now she's getting in the way. That sets up the ancient magic blood protection because he went back on his offer.

5. Then he tries to zap Harry and the AK rebounds on Voldemort because he dishonored the offer.

[arithmancer]

I don't think anyone is disputing the sequence of events. In fact, the sequence as you laid it out, seems to make the point of TGW, as I understand it, seeing as how the chain of events starts with "1) Snape... " Lily could only have the chance to inadvertently create Love Magic, because Voldemort gave her a real choice to step aside.

And, as we have never seen Snape and Voldemort have this conversation, we have no idea whether he asked or begged. I could see either, and lean towards the latter. Because again, without seeing it, we do know that Snape was apparently not entirely satisfied with the outcome of that conversation. Otherwise, he would have no need to turn to Albus with a similar request, thereby taking huge risks (being killed by Albus, being turned in by Albus, and being discovered betraying the Dark Lord's plans, to name three).

[ComicBookWorm]

It doesn't really matter if he asked or begged. What does matter is that his request didn't have a magical element to it. Indeed, his request is why Voldemort gave Lily a choice to live, and that did set up the circumstance for the ancient magic to be triggered. But, his request, in itself, begging or not, didn't not add magic to the sequence of events. We have book canon and interviews that establish this.

Frankly, I don't think Snape would have begged, because he wouldn't have wanted to make Voldemort suspicious.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

There was no magic until she refused. So there was nothing to nullify. In fact the magic didn't really get triggered until he dishonored his offer by killing her.

Dishonoured his offer; I understood this to mean his offer had some magic in it; that offer was not Voldemort's, or rather not made by Voldemort on his own accord; it was made because of Snape's request.

This is why I wrote about the paragraph in POA about Peter.

Snape never intended at that time to save Harry's life; he wanted Lily to live, his desperation was to somehow save the life of Lily.

Lily on the other hand cared nothing for her life; she wanted Harry to live. She was desperate; she says "I'll do anything, only please spare Harry!"

When Voldemort gave a choice to Lily to live, Snape's request that enabled such a choice to be given to Lily in the first place, turned that simple order of Voldemort "Stand aside, silly girl, stand aside now" into a magic that carried Snape's desperation IMO. It has to, I feel, otherwise these words or the choice would not turn Lily's death into such a powerful sacrifice IMO.

Lily's begging and pleading showed her desperation to save harry at any cost. So when Voldemort cast the killing curse at Lily, the same desperation that turned a simple choice into an act of magic, turned Voldemort's breaking of that magic, by casting the killing curse into her last wish, which was that Harry should live; that Voldemort should never kill him IMO.

The next curse from Voldemort rebound on him, killing him and saving Harry, because of the protection IMO.

I think this is what happened.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

And, as we have never seen Snape and Voldemort have this conversation, we have no idea whether he asked or begged. I could see either, and lean towards the latter.

I lean towards the latter as well, because Snape would have had a tough time even explaining his lust for a muggleborn woman, a woman who was in the Order, who had defied Voldemort 3 times and was the mother of the child who would vanquish him. I, personally think Snape begged, pleaded, grovelled and perhaps even took the ridicule that Voldmeort may have thrown at him, for being unable to forget a mudblood and then came to Dumbledore.

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

It doesn't really matter if he asked or begged. What does matter is that his request didn't have a magical element to it. Indeed, his request is why Voldemort gave Lily a choice to live, and that did set up the circumstance for the ancient magic to be triggered. But, his request, in itself, begging or not, didn't not add magic to the sequence of events. We have book canon and interviews that establish this.

Frankly, I don't think Snape would have begged, because he wouldn't have wanted to make Voldemort suspicious.

His request at the time when Snape made the request did not have any magical element IMO.

I think the magical element in his request came when Voldmeort gave the offer and then backed out of it.

[RemusLupinFan]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

Frankly, I don't think Snape would have begged, because he wouldn't have wanted to make Voldemort suspicious.

I tend to agree, since begging would have exposed his feelings for Lily to Voldemort (and somehow, that doesn't seem like Snape's style to me). It is interesting that Voldemort would have granted Snape's request, but I'm guessing Snape phrased it in a clever way so as to persuade Voldemort to do it. I also agree that Voldemort didn't really try to hard to honor Snape's request, seeing as he killed her anyway. That would certainly give Snape another reason to hate Voldemort. I think Snape was integral in setting the magic up that protected Harry (though I don't believe this was ever his intention), since if he hadn't asked Voldemort to spare Lily, Voldemort would likely have just killed her without giving her a choice to stand aside. I believe it was Lily's choice to die in Harry's stead that activated Harry's protection. Without Snape, there would have been no choice.

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think the magical element in his request came when Voldmeort gave the offer and then backed out of it.

The magic came from Voldemort making the offer and then not honoring it. Without Snape's request, Voldemort wouldn't have made the offer. But the magic came from the offer Voldemort made (and then reneged upon), resulting in Lily's sacrfice.

Without Snape's request, the offer would not have been made, and Lily's sacrifice would have been no different than James'

[wickedwickedboy]

That is not the issue though. Everyone knows and agrees with the basic storyline.

The issue is dispute was that Snape's request in and of itself caused "magic" to be issued "from him" that somehow got in the mix to help protect Harry. That was the only thing I was refuting. And my contention is that no magic came from Snape.

In my judgment; Snape's request to Voldemort merely was one of many things necessary for Harry to end up protected that day. First James and Lily had to defy Voldemort thrice and have a child to be born in July. Snape had to overhear and tell the prophecy, then ask Voldemort to spare Lily - at least to cause him to think about the benefits of doing so (if he saw no benefit, he would not have considered it at all, imo). Peter then had to squeal their wereabouts as Secret Keeper and finally, Voldemort had to take all of those things, add them up and decide to go kill the Potters. You take away any one of those things and there is no storyline as we know it.

It has to be acknowledged that Voldemort is the intervening party in this situation. He didn't offer Lily a chance to live because Snape asked him to. If Snape had asked him to spare Harry, he would not have done it because it was not in his interest to do so. Voldemort offered Lily a chance because he found it in his interest to do so. There is no Death Eater who gave Voldemort orders, imo. So the truth is, it was Voldemort's ultimate decision to offer Lily a chance for his own reasons we cannot know (which may or may not have been related to Snape in some way) that allowed for Lily to reject his offer and as a result, be killed by Voldemort.

The magic evolved solely from Lily's decision to do that; not because she and James defied Voldemort thrice, or because Voldemort decided to kill her or because Snape asked Voldemort to spare her. Those things have nothing to do with the formation of the magic itself.