Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I respect your view Yoana, but even seen in that light; what did that indifference pertain to? Not to their losing all of their money; not to their losing their ability to obtain food or some basic necessity of life. The indifference bore directly on their deaths - on the fact that they would be murdered. While I feel Snape was desirious of their deaths; let us put that aside. How much distinction is there between wanting someone murdered and uncaring whether or not they are murdered? To me there is no distinction at all.

I agree. Moreover, in Snape's case, it's not as if Snape is an idle bystander. He brought it down on them. If it hadn't been for Snape relaying the prophecy to Voldemort, the Potters would not have been targeted at all. While there is no explicit proof that Snape wanted to murder James and Harry, it wouldn't have broken his heart. That much is made clear by Jo.

Originally Posted by boushh

And why would he even bother saying, "You can kill them, but spare Lily." It isn't like Voldemort is asking his permission or approval to kill the other two. If Snape did say something like that I don't know if Voldemort would take it too kindly. Snape would be implying that he has some sort of power in telling Voldemort he can kill them. Voldemort would find it disrespectful, I would assume.

Okay, you're thinking of approve as in 'authorize'. I meant it as in 'to get on board with'. Maybe 'acknowledge' would fit better.

Originally Posted by boushh

These would be plain terms that Voldemort would understand. He doesn't understand love or compassion. So there would be no need to bring up James and Harry at all, even if Snape considered them, which he didn't.He was indifferent, which isn't much better, but it isn't murderous intent either.

Well, like I said, being indifferent to loss of human life is also murder. That's how I see it, and that's how the law sees it. Besides, I think that Snape wanted to kill them a little.

As for the prophecy. He was relaying something to Voldemort that would have resulted in the death of someone or several someones. He'd be an accessory or aiding or something, but he didn't relay that prophecy for the sole purpose of having someone killed.

Basically, he was willing to trade the life of an infant to gain brownie points with Voldemort. Did he know that the infant would die? Yes. Did he care? Nope. That's "Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life".

[boushh]

I agree that what he did was wrong. I just think there is a distinction between what he did and what Voldemort did, which is actively seek their deaths and bring them about by his own hand.

I also don't think Harry and James were even a blip on his radar when he was asking Voldemort to spare Lily's life. It isn't much better than saying, "Ra Ra! Kill them!. I just see it as being slightly different. I'm not a lawyer by any means, but I would call Voldemort the murderer in this case, with perhaps Snape being more of an accessory to murder. While Snape may be considered just as guilty for the murder (though who knows what a jury might say to his attempts to stop it after his role of relaying the prophecy) there is still probably a distinction between how these two would be referred in relation to the crime.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by boushh

I agree that what he did was wrong. I just think there is a distinction between what he did and what Voldemort did, which is actively seek their deaths and bring them about by his own hand.

I also don't think Harry and James were even a blip on his radar when he was asking Voldemort to spare Lily's life. It isn't much better than saying, "Ra Ra! Kill them!. I just see it as being slightly different. I'm not a lawyer by any means, but I would call Voldemort the murderer in this case, with perhaps Snape being more of an accessory to murder. While Snape may be considered just as guilty for the murder (though who knows what a jury might say to his attempts to stop it after his role of relaying the prophecy) there is still probably a distinction between how these two would be referred in relation to the crime.

Absolutely; the person that actually pulls the trigger is the "murderer", but the law (in the US) recognizes that those who collude and aid in carrying out a murder are also "murderers" per se, due to their reckless indifference to certain death (or high risk thereof). Thus the penalty is the same. There is more to it of course depending if you are in a code or common law system and so forth with respect to the 'names' placed on specific crimes. But the bottom line is that if you knowingly help set up a murder and/or aid it carrying it out, it doesn't matter if you pull the trigger or not.

The reason I am not discussing what Snape did afterward is because I was only discussing his state of mind at the time of his actually doing this deed. Later I discussed his desire to undo it, only in terms of Lily. But the problem with that is, one cannot get 'time off for attempting to undo what one has done' if they only attempt to undo a portion of it - in this case only one of three murders. In my view, Snape had that same ideology in place when he went to Dumbledore as well - hence Dumbledore's disgust, imo.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

I agree. Moreover, in Snape's case, it's not as if Snape is an idle bystander. He brought it down on them. If it hadn't been for Snape relaying the prophecy to Voldemort, the Potters would not have been targeted at all. While there is no explicit proof that Snape wanted to murder James and Harry, it wouldn't have broken his heart. That much is made clear by Jo.

I agree, this is what I was attempting to say earlier. If you set up 3 people for death, trying to undo the deed in relation to just one of them is insufficient, under the law and imo as well. I also agree there is no definitive canon that Snape actively desired James and Harry's deaths, that is merely my personal opinion based on the canon.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Absolutely; the person that actually pulls the trigger is the "murderer", but the law (in the US) recognizes that those who collude and aid in carrying out a murder are also "murderers" per se, due to their reckless indifference to certain death (or high risk thereof). Thus the penalty is the same. There is more to it of course depending if you are in a code or common law system and so forth with respect to the 'names' placed on specific crimes. But the bottom line is that if you knowingly help set up a murder and/or aid it carrying it out, it doesn't matter if you pull the trigger or not.

No, but there is still a distinction that is made between the two. If they were guilty of exactly the same thing then there would be no need for the clarifications that you two have brought up. Snape is guilty of reckless indifference, and Voldemort is guilty of murder. Snape may have been punished for the murder in the same way as Voldemort in RL law but there is still the distinction that if Voldemort did not "pull the trigger" there would be no crime at all. Even Snape relaying the prophecy would not be a crime in itself. What makes it something that would be punishable is what Voldemort does with the information. As far as we know Snape did not push for the deaths of these people whoever they were. He gave the information he heard, which led Voldemort to make choices that endangered these people. Voldemort chose to commit murder. Snape did not intend to commit murder, however he was indifferent to what Voldemort would do as a result of hearing the prophecy.

While this law or that may say they are both guilty in the same way, I think it's also up to the reader's feelings on the matter, because this is a fictional world we are dealing with. However, whether it be in RL or in this story, the way I see it Voldemort had the intent to murder, Snape was indifferent to what Voldemort would do with the information imparted to him, and I personally don't quite see them guilty of the same thing in this particular situation. I see it all in degrees. I don't think Snape is innocent by any means, but I do see him to be a bit less guilty (or guilty in a different way) than Voldemort, who chose to kill, and say Pettigrew, who knowingly sent his friends to their deaths.

I would obviously try to understand and abide by what the law was saying in RL, but I'd probably have different feelings about it on a more personal level.

I also agree there is no definitive canon that Snape actively desired James and Harry's deaths, that is merely my personal opinion based on the canon.

And I really didn't see a whole lot to lead me to that decision, so I went away with the impression that he was indifferent to what Voldemort would do with the information that Snape gave him (which is of course despicable), and that it all began to mean something when Harry was targeted because Lily was endangered. That doesn't add up to him actively wanting Harry and James dead when he asked for Lily's life to be spared. It adds up to him wanting Lily to live and not thinking much beyond that. That's what I interpreted from the scenes we were given. I'm willing to agree to disagree because I don't think anyone is going to be changing anyone else's mind.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by boushh

No, but there is still a distinction that is made between the two. If they were guilty of exactly the same thing then there would be no need for the clarifications that you two have brought up. Snape is guilty of reckless indifference, and Voldemort is guilty of murder. Snape may have been punished for the murder in the same way as Voldemort in RL law but there is still the distinction that if Voldemort did not "pull the trigger" there would be no crime at all. Even Snape relaying the prophecy would not be a crime in itself.

I agree that the act of giving information per se is not a crime. However, if you give information with the intent to inform a killer of his next victim, then it does become criminal in nature in my view. That is why Snape's participation would be considered colluding.

However, whether it be in RL or in this story, the way I see it Voldemort had the intent to murder, Snape was indifferent to what Voldemort would do with the information imparted to him, and I personally don't quite see them guilty of the same thing in this particular situation. I see it all in degrees. I don't think Snape is innocent by any means, but I do see him to be a bit less guilty (or guilty in a different way) than Voldemort, who chose to kill, and say Pettigrew, who knowingly sent his friends to their deaths.

Perhaps Peter was indifferent too; all he did was give information. He never admitted that he gave it so that Voldemort could kill the Potters. Why would you hold him guilty under the same circumstances that you hold Snape less blameless?

While this law or that may say they are both guilty in the same way, I think it's also up to the reader's feelings on the matter, because this is a fictional world we are dealing with.

I would obviously try to understand and abide by what the law was saying in RL, but I'd probably have different feelings about it on a more personal level.

Well I think it is fine for everyone to interpret and invent laws or whatever they wish to do when it comes to fiction. None of it is real.

For me, since JKR was basing her writing on basic laws as cited in her series, I simply follow what I feel is her lead in that.

And I really didn't see a whole lot to lead me to that decision, so I went away with the impression that he was indifferent to what Voldemort would do with the information that Snape gave him (which is of course despicable), and that it all began to mean something when Harry was targeted because Lily was endangered. That doesn't add up to him actively wanting Harry and James dead when he asked for Lily's life to be spared.

In my judgment, if Harry lived, Voldemort would never give up attempting to kill him. Lily would remained threatened and I feel that was another reason that Snape wished for the child to be killed. I also feel that he wanted Lily for himself, so he wished for James to be eliminated from the picture. However, I respect your view and it is likely best to agree to disagree since we are quite far apart in our thoughts on this issue.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I also feel that he wanted Lily for himself, so he wished for James to be eliminated from the picture.

If Snape really wanted this, then I think he could have done this even before Lily married James. He was a DE and there was no need for him to see Lily marry James and be happy. He could have got his DE friends and tried to harm James.

But from the time Lily broke off with him, there is nothing in canon to say that he even spoke to Lily or tried to kill James so that Lily would become free for him once again IMO.

I like this thing about Snape a lot; he respected Lily's choice, even if it hurt him badly and tore his soul. And we really don't have canon that Snape in any way tried to harm James, so that he could "get" Lily IMO.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If Snape really wanted this, then I think he could have done this even before Lily married James. He was a DE and there was no need for him to see Lily marry James and be happy. He could have got his DE friends and tried to harm James.

I don't get it either. There's all the evidence in the books that they parted ways and Lily got engaged and married and Snape left her alone (or at least zero evidence to suppose he tormented her with spam mail and anonymous gifts), went to pursue his own interests and life, and yet people just assume that he must have wanted her for himself just because he was in love with her. Well, that's not a good enough base for this assumption. Love manifests in different ways and can be controlled/suppressed. Unless there is something other that the mere fact of Snape's love which can indicate that he planned on having James removed, I consider the assumption that he did completely unfounded.

Not wanting someone to die doesn't equal wanting them to be yours.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Yoana

I don't get it either. There's all the evidence in the books that they parted ways and Lily got engaged and married and Snape left her alone (or at least zero evidence to suppose he tormented her with spam mail and anonymous gifts), went to pursue his own interests and life, and yet people just assume that he must have wanted her for himself just because he was in love with her. Well, that's not a good enough base for this assumption. Love manifests in different ways and can be controlled/suppressed. Unless there is something other that the mere fact of Snape's love which can indicate that he planned on having James removed, I consider the assumption that he did completely unfounded.

Not wanting someone to die doesn't equal wanting them to be yours.

Well I respect all views, but I can't help the way I interpret the book. . I carefully explained the context I was basing my belief on and it seems to me there is as much evidence in support of my theory as everyone else's (well to me mine has more, as everyone else's does for them - but you know what I mean I hope.)

What I don't understand is why it is difficult to believe that Snape wanted Lily for himself. The fact of the matter was, Snape wanted to spare Lily - and it wasn't just that he didn't care that James and Harry would die; he believed they would (he did not deny having exchanged the mother for the son and he hadn't made a request to spare James either). Furthermore, if James and Lily had both lived, and Voldemort somehow got Lily away and delivered her to Snape - well Snape was smart enough to realize that he could not return her to James. In my opinion he had no intention of doing so, but Voldemort would have killed Snape for the trechery if he had done that. So I don't see how Snape was not thinking along the lines of having her (and I don't mean like Voldemort thought) based on all of the circumstances. Snape was not the 'if you love them set them free' kind of guy; he proved that back at Hogwarts, imo.

But back at Hogwarts, Snape wasn't a Death Eater. He did not have the mentality at that point that killing was an okay way of getting what you want. But that was how the Death Eaters thought, imo. Snape was able to deliver the prophecy which would see a baby and its parents killed and that was so that Voldemort would have no future roadblocks to power. Well Snape had emotions for Lily, and imo, he wanted her, he always had. While I think he had tried to put that out of his mind to some degree, when the opportunity arose to have her, why would he resist when it just meant killing off her kid and husband?

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Yoana

Not wanting someone to die doesn't equal wanting them to be yours.

Exactly. At that time Snape did not want Lily to live so that she could be his. He wanted her to live. I don't think Snape was thinking beyond that IMO. Not at that time and when he was aware of the danger she was in IMO.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

What I don't understand is why it is difficult to believe that Snape wanted Lily for himself.

I don't think it is difficult to believe that. I actually think Snape loved Lily means that he also wanted her physically, mentally and emotionally all for himself and while she lived that love was a yearning that it could not be so and after she died it became a regret that it could not have happened this way.

Where I differ from you is I don't think Snape acted on his love to take Lily away from her happiness. while what would have made him happy was Lily thinking the same about him as he did about her, he realised that Lily had those feelings for someone else.

And I think Snape respected that. There is nothing in canon except to say that Snape loved Lily until he died. He did not even fight for that love, pleading and trying to make Lily see his point of view, trying to show her that James was not the guy. He simply accepted her choice.

The fact of the matter was, Snape wanted to spare Lily - and it wasn't just that he didn't care that James and Harry would die;

The fact I hate Dumbeldore's words to Snape on the hill was because they were spoken deliberately. When Harry was the child who was prophecied to kill Voldemort and when James was known to every DE as Snape's most hated enemy, I really don't know how Snape could ahve asked Vodlemort to spare both of them.

He came running to Dumbeldore, and even if we assume he came only for Lily, I think he knew Dumbledore was not going to only protect Lily and leave the other 2 to die IMO. Even if Snape at that time came for Lily, he was in effect protecting Harry and James because of who he came running to.

The fact Snape admits that he asked only for Lily's life shows his helplessness more than anything else IMO. When Snape was so truthful, how could Dumbledore say that Snape disgusted him? I think it was a clever ploy on Dumbledore's part to mould this boy into his own personal weapon in the war against Voldemort and that was why Dumbeldore spoke as he did.

Even then IMO those words were inexcusable when Dumbeldore knew that Snape could not have possible asked for the lives of James and Harry and still be alive to come running to him to warn him about the child Voldmeort had chosen as the child of the Prophecy IMO.

But back at Hogwarts, Snape wasn't a Death Eater. He did not have the mentality at that point that killing was an okay way of getting what you want.

But he became a DE soon after he left Hogwarts. If he really wanted Lily for himself, without respecting her thoughts, he could have tried then, perhaps, even before Harry was born. He never does so IMO.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If Snape really wanted this, then I think he could have done this even before Lily married James. He was a DE and there was no need for him to see Lily marry James and be happy. He could have got his DE friends and tried to harm James.

It's canon that Snape did try to harm James after SWM. It's on-page that he never missed a chance to hex James. This was after James and Lily got together in school. And we know what Snape's specialty is: Sectumsempra. The way I see it, Snape did try, but James was just too good.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I like this thing about Snape a lot; he respected Lily's choice, even if it hurt him badly and tore his soul. And we really don't have canon that Snape in any way tried to harm James, so that he could "get" Lily IMO.

We have canon that Snape wanted Lily. We have canon that Snape hated James and never missed an opportunity to harm him. It's also canon that Snape used Sectumsempra so often that it was seen as his specialty. Snape also does not understand Lily at all. He thinks that becoming a powerful DE would impress her, so it's likely that he thought she'd come back to him if James was out of the picture. Thus, I don't think that its too far fetched. Snape doesn't value human life, after all, and tends to objectify Lily.

Originally Posted by Yoana

I don't get it either. There's all the evidence in the books that they parted ways and Lily got engaged and married and Snape left her alone (or at least zero evidence to suppose he tormented her with spam mail and anonymous gifts), went to pursue his own interests and life, and yet people just assume that he must have wanted her for himself just because he was in love with her.

I don't think anyone's saying that Snape tormented Lily with lovey-dovey letters and Chocolate hearts.

Snape thought that becoming a powerful DE would impress Lily. IMO, he was just working towards that goal. The husband and the child were just 'complications'. Snape never considered Lily's feelings, even when they were best friends. So, I can't really see Snape letting go of Lily, and letting her live out her own life. That just doesn't sound like something that Snape would do. Snape is too tenacious for that.

Originally Posted by Yoana

Not wanting someone to die doesn't equal wanting them to be yours.

Not necessarily, I agree. But in Snape's case, what we have is a powerful obsession with Lily, which doesn't fade one bit even after her death. I think that Snape did want Lily for his own.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

And I think Snape respected that. There is nothing in canon except to say that Snape loved Lily until he died. He did not even fight for that love, pleading and trying to make Lily see his point of view, trying to show her that James was not the guy. He simply accepted her choice.

I'm sorry, but I didn't see this at all. Snape tried to hex James at every opportunity after James and Lily got together. He does plead with Lily and try to make Lily see his POV right after SWM. Lily was just so disgusted with him that she never gives him another chance.

The whole assumption that Snape left her alone and 'respected her feelings' is based not on any canon, but rather the lack of anything to the contrary. On that note, there were no memories of Snape hexing James either, but we know that happened. Snape didn't just fade into the background after SWM, he was right there all along, watching and waiting.

Another thing is that the memories were released by Snape when he was dying, and running out of time. The sole purpose of providing the memory fragments of the relationship was to gain Harry's trust, so he could pass on Dumbledore's advice. And Snape revealed just enough of the relationship to Harry to convince him of Snape's loyalty.

As far as Lily was concerned, the friendship ended after SWM, and she ends it with such a finality, that there's really no need to show Snape's failed attempts at reconciliation. It would be a repeat of the same scene, after all, in different settings, and slightly different dialogue.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

The fact I hate Dumbledore's words to Snape on the hill was because they were spoken deliberately. When Harry was the child who was prophesied to kill Voldemort and when James was known to every DE as Snape's most hated enemy, I really don't know how Snape could have asked Voldemort to spare both of them.

Why make this 'death deal' with Voldemort at all? Why didn't he run straight to Dumbledore? Why doesn't the fact that someone he supposedly loves is about to be hurt, bring about a change of heart in Snape? Shouldn't this have invoked the slightest bit of empathy in Snape, made him realize that other people had loved ones too, that the people that he helped murdered were also missed by their loved ones? Instead, he makes a deal to spare Lily at the cost of her husband and child, and then tells Dumbledore that Lily Evans is in danger, and has to be bullied into service by Dumbledore. Am I the only one who sees something seriously wrong with Snape here?

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

He came running to Dumbledore, and even if we assume he came only for Lily, I think he knew Dumbledore was not going to only protect Lily and leave the other 2 to die IMO. Even if Snape at that time came for Lily, he was in effect protecting Harry and James because of who he came running to.

I don't think that Snape understood Dumbledore well enough to come to that conclusion. Snape recognized and respected Dumbledore as a powerful wizard, not as a kind, benevolent person.

[wingardium713]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Why make this 'death deal' with Voldemort at all? Why didn't he run straight to Dumbledore? Why doesn't the fact that someone he supposedly loves is about to be hurt, bring about a change of heart in Snape? Shouldn't this have invoked the slightest bit of empathy in Snape, made him realize that other people had loved ones too, that the people that he helped murdered were also missed by their loved ones? Instead, he makes a deal to spare Lily at the cost of her husband and child, and then tells Dumbledore that Lily Evans is in danger, and has to be bullied into service by Dumbledore. Am I the only one who sees something seriously wrong with Snape here?

I see the same thing. I think the fact that Snape refers to Lily by her maiden name indicates that he has not accepted her marriage. I think that is why JKR had him say that.

I think that Snape does go there to save Lily in a desperate act and does not intend to save the entire family. If his goal was to save the entire family, I think that he would have mentioned that to start with. He's asking Dumbledore for a favour ("a request - please"). I don't think we have any evidence that Dumbledore was more likely to save Lily than the entire family, so why start with Lily as your lead off person needing saving (Harry would have made more sense. Who doesn't want to save a baby? Well, other than Voldemort). If Dumbledore asked him why he wanted the family saved, he could have mentioned that he does it for Lily then (I think that presenting things that way would have made a stronger case for getting help). So, I think that Snape went to save Lily without thinking the entire thing through, he was just so desperate. I think that once Dumbledore points out that he should want to save the entire family, he accepts that as a condition of saving Lily ("Hide them all, then," he croaked, "Keep her - them - safe. Please").

I think that Snape fell in love with an "idolized" Lily. I'm not sure that he ever loved the real Lily and sought to understand her. It may have been that he has trouble understanding others, though. I think this because he thought that becoming a DE would impress her (she's a muggleborn...how is that supposed to work? That's like a Jewish person falling in love with somebody because they joined the SS....they might fall in love with them despite that, but I don't think they would do it because of it) and doesn't seem to respect the things she loves (like hurting Petunia. Sure, Petunia can be a pain, but I think Snape could have been nice to her for Lily's sake. I think Petunia should have been nicer to Snape, too, but we are talking about Lily's and Snape's relationship in this thread).

All in my opinion.

[boushh]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Perhaps Peter was indifferent too; all he did was give information. He never admitted that he gave it so that Voldemort could kill the Potters. Why would you hold him guilty under the same circumstances that you hold Snape less blameless?

Because Snape relayed *information* that may or may not have placed a faceless family in danger. Yes, it's still messed up, I know. I don't think he quite understood the value of human life until Lily was placed in direct danger, and then he began to change for the better in that regard.

Peter Pettigrew placed his friends in danger. He knowingly did this. Voldemort was after them for quite some time by this point, if I'm not mistaken. It's possible Pettigrew knew that Voldemort's intent was to kill. I think most people would easily figure that one out. Yet, he placed his friends in danger by deliberately betraying them.

IMHO, if Snape knew that Voldemort would think it was Lily's son that the prophecy spoke of, then I don't think he would have relayed the information in the first place. And I don't think he would take advantage of the information and use it for himself to get rid of the husband and child. It would go against the fact that he didn't do anything to interfere with Lily and her marriage prior to this point and he really could have if he wanted to. I think he tried to get over or her and/or move on with his Death Eater life. Too bad it was the wrong way to try to move on.

So I feel Pettigrew had more direct involvement in the deaths of the Potters. Snape was indirectly a part of it and didn't know he was specifically putting the Potters in danger by passing on information that didn't specifically say, "Kill the Potters!". So to me Pettigrew's betrayal of his friends and directly leading Voldemort to them kind of makes Pettigrew a bit more guilty in my book. They are all guilty, but Snape is the only one I pity because if had known what he was doing, he probably wouldn't have done it, and he did everything he could to undo it. IMHO.

Well I think it is fine for everyone to interpret and invent laws or whatever they wish to do when it comes to fiction. None of it is real.

I'm not inventing much of anything. I'm just expressing my feelings and thoughts on the matter and wondering how relevant the laws of various countries actually would be when discussion this fictional world.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

It's canon that Snape did try to harm James after SWM. It's on-page that he never missed a chance to hex James. This was after James and Lily got together in school. And we know what Snape's specialty is: Sectumsempra. The way I see it, Snape did try, but James was just too good.

I thought that was a four on one which went on for almost all the 7 years. I will not go into that in detail here, though.

We have canon that Snape wanted Lily.

I agree.

We have canon that Snape hated James and never missed an opportunity to harm him.

We also have canon that James and co attacked Snape 4 on one (HBP). So I don't know how much Snape harmed James.

It's also canon that Snape used Sectumsempra so often that it was seen as his specialty.

We don't know that he used it often. But I agree Lupin said that curse was his speciality.

Snape also does not understand Lily at all.

On what do you base this on? I find no canon for this, personally.

He thinks that becoming a powerful DE would impress her,

It looks like it, though I don't know. It was what Snape wanted, why is a guess at best. It could be anything from his home life, his father to Lily IMO.

so it's likely that he thought she'd come back to him if James was out of the picture.

I respectfully disagree. There is no canon for this.

Thus, I don't think that its too far fetched. Snape doesn't value human life, after all, and tends to objectify Lily.

I respectfully disagree with this, considering what Snape did in his lifetime.

The husband and the child were just 'complications'. Snape never considered Lily's feelings, even when they were best friends. So, I can't really see Snape letting go of Lily, and letting her live out her own life. That just doesn't sound like something that Snape would do. Snape is too tenacious for that.

Could you please give canon for this?

Not necessarily, I agree. But in Snape's case, what we have is a powerful obsession with Lily, which doesn't fade one bit even after her death. I think that Snape did want Lily for his own.

I would call it love, personally. People who are obssessed cannot IMO do the things Snape did.

I'm sorry, but I didn't see this at all. Snape tried to hex James at every opportunity after James and Lily got together. He does plead with Lily and try to make Lily see his POV right after SWM. Lily was just so disgusted with him that she never gives him another chance.

That was Snape going to apologize for his wrong words. Lily broke off with him, and frankly Snape was not allowed to talk I thought. Lily came, she spoke and she went away was what it looked to me.

On that note, there were no memories of Snape hexing James either, but we know that happened. Snape didn't just fade into the background after SWM, he was right there all along, watching and waiting.

Well we have Dumbledore's account of James wounding Snape so much that he could not heal in OOTP. Plus Sirius and Remus practically admitted it in OOTP as well IMO.

Why make this 'death deal' with Voldemort at all?

Because Voldmeort would be the one who would cast the killing curse and Snape wanted an assurance from him. naturally he could not ask for Harry or James, so he came running to Dumbledore, because while he did not at that time care about Harry or James, I think he knew Lily did.

The entire post is my opinion only.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by boushh

Because Snape relayed *information* that may or may not have placed a faceless family in danger. Yes, it's still messed up, I know. I don't think he quite understood the value of human life until Lily was placed in direct danger, and then he began to change for the better in that regard.

Peter Pettigrew placed his friends in danger. He knowingly did this. Voldemort was after them for quite some time by this point, if I'm not mistaken. It's possible Pettigrew knew that Voldemort's intent was to kill. I think most people would easily figure that one out. Yet, he placed his friends in danger by deliberately betraying them.

I respect your view. However, while I dig the HP books and therefore, Harry and his family, in this situation, they were not special, imo. They were just 3 wizards out of zillions of wizards living in the wizard world. In my view, it makes no difference at all to the level of Snape's crime that he didn't know who the prophecy would implicate. He turned over the prophecy and Voldemort decides he's going to kill this child and begins looking into families that might meet the criteria. All of this time, Snape is all for the plan and couldn't care less which baby ends up dead according to JKR. If it had turned out to be the Longbottoms that were elected, Snape would not have done anything about it, except helped ensure the death of Neville.

This is all that matters, imo. If it implicated Peter's mother and her new son, he may have balked at the idea too and sought Dumbledore for help as I see it. So this reasoning does not serve to make any of the parties less guilty, imo.

IMHO, if Snape knew that Voldemort would think it was Lily's son that the prophecy spoke of, then I don't think he would have relayed the information in the first place.

In my opinion, the only thing this says is that Snape had no intent relative to Lily being murdered, and I agree. However, that does not cover it because he did have the intent that others would be murdered in order to clear any roadblock's in Voldemort's path.

And I don't think he would take advantage of the information and use it for himself to get rid of the husband and child. It would go against the fact that he didn't do anything to interfere with Lily and her marriage prior to this point and he really could have if he wanted to. I think he tried to get over or her and/or move on with his Death Eater life. Too bad it was the wrong way to try to move on.

Well there is no canon about what Snape may or may not have done if he'd known who the prophecy implicated, nor about whether he'd attempted to do anything to interfere with Lily's marriage. So one can only speculate.

So I feel Pettigrew had more direct involvement in the deaths of the Potters. Snape was indirectly a part of it and didn't know he was specifically putting the Potters in danger by passing on information that didn't specifically say, "Kill the Potters!".

My point is that it is no better to say "kill those faceless people" than it is to say "kill the Potters". So I would not be able to agree that Pettigrew was more directly involved. As I say, if it had been the Longbottoms elected, Snape would have been saying "kill the Longbottoms" and to me, no family is any more special than another in that regard. As it was, when Snape found out who it was, he said t o Voldemort "Kill the Potters, except Lily". So I am not following this line of reasoning.

So to me Pettigrew's betrayal of his friends and directly leading Voldemort to them kind of makes Pettigrew a bit more guilty in my book. They are all guilty, but Snape is the only one I pity because if had known what he was doing, he probably wouldn't have done it, and he did everything he could to undo it. IMHO.

Well that is my point. Snape did know what he was doing, he simply didn't know who he was doing it to. That to me is completely irrelevant as if I saw it as a factor important enough for consideration, I would be placing a higher value on Lily's life than that of anyone else in the wizard world. I am unwilling to do that.

I'm not inventing much of anything. I'm just expressing my feelings and thoughts on the matter and wondering how relevant the laws of various countries actually would be when discussion this fictional world.

Well JKR gave the wizard world a legal system (the Wizengamot) and state power for enforcement (the Aurors); they had criminal laws similar to ours (against crimes like murder, theft, kidnapping, torture) a penal system (Azkaban) as well as interpretations of the law (using equal force in self defense if one is in immient danger). So to me, these things were interpreted similarly. However, as I say, because it is fiction, I feel readers can interpret the series in any way they like.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

On what do you base this[Snape not understanding Lily] on? I find no canon for this, personally.

He thought becoming a death eater would impress her (from an interview with JKR) when even an acquaintance of Lily's could probably tell you otherwise.

Because Voldmeort would be the one who would cast the killing curse and Snape wanted an assurance from him. naturally he could not ask for Harry or James, so he came running to Dumbledore, because while he did not at that time care about Harry or James, I think he knew Lily did.

Question I have to ask because unfortunately I don't have the book on hand right now - is there any canon that tells us that Snape did not know Peter Pettigrew was the spy? I assumed so, because Snape was going back and forth, getting information from Voldemort and Dumbledore when Peter was acting as a spy - but again, can't remember if anything contradicts this. If he did know, then I wonder why he would not have told Dumbledore (which is why I'm having second thoughts about this assumption).

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

He thought becoming a death eater would impress her (from an interview with JKR) when even an acquaintance of Lily's could probably tell you otherwise.

I meant in the books. While I agree that indeed Snape become a DE, the reasons are not really stated in the books and are up for assumption IMO.

Question I have to ask because unfortunately I don't have the book on hand right now - is there any canon that tells us that Snape did not know Peter Pettigrew was the spy? I assumed so, because Snape was going back and forth, getting information from Voldemort and Dumbledore when Peter was acting as a spy - but again, can't remember if anything contradicts this. If he did know, then I wonder why he would not have told Dumbledore (which is why I'm having second thoughts about this assumption).

I don't think he did, because he thought Sirius was the traitor and he wanted to have him kissed as per the Ministry orders.

If Snape knew Peter was the spy, it would make everything about him a lie, from loving Lily to spying for the Light and also make a fool of Dumbledore who said a million times he trusted Severus Snape IMO.

Above all, Snape would have never, ever, agreed to kill Dumbledore. Snape makes sense because he did the things we saw in the books and his story was about love, mistakes and remorse for those mistakes, with love for this girl underlying everything IMO.

If Snape knew about Peter, then everything about him becomes false and his agreeing to kill Dumbledore and getting killed by Voldmeort make no sense to me.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I meant in the books. While I agree that indeed Snape become a DE, the reasons are not really stated in the books and are up for assumption IMO.

Well as you indicate, that is your opinion. I feel the author in creating the series has the right to create her characters as she wishes and so I take all of her facts about them as canon. From that perspective, Snape did not have a very good understanding of Lily because he thought becoming a Death Eater would impress her. I think the rest of the canon supports this idea as well. For example on the train when Lily was crying and she told Snape why, he declared, 'so what?'. I felt that showed that his thought stream and values, even at that age, were so different from Lily's that he could not understand her way of looking at things.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well as you indicate, that is your opinion. I feel the author in creating the series has the right to create her characters as she wishes and so I take all of her facts about them as canon. From that perspective, Snape did not have a very good understanding of Lily because he thought becoming a Death Eater would impress her. I think the rest of the canon supports this idea as well. For example on the train when Lily was crying and she told Snape why, he declared, 'so what?'. I felt that showed that his thought stream and values, even at that age, were so different from Lily's that he could not understand her way of looking at things.

I think your assumption is a reasonable one as well, because we don't have any specifics in canon.

Personally, I think Snape understood Lily very, very well, because friendship for over 6 years cannot happen without understanding and knowing of each other.

They had a friendship that was on all the year round. So they must have understood and known each other, else I feel their friendship would not have lasted as long as it did, when they had so much going against them (being in different Houses, coming from different backgrounds etc) IMO.

Snape may have thought that he could turn Lily around to his way of thinking, that IMO is not wrong.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think your assumption is a reasonable one as well, because we don't have any specifics in canon.

Well yeah, there is more guidance since I understand JKR's comments to be canon. For me it helps understand these subplots because so little was written about them in the book.

Personally, I think Snape understood Lily very, very well, because friendship for over 6 years cannot happen without understanding and knowing of each other.

I respect your view, but that is not how I see it. I think Snape had a natural blindness due to his vastly distinct way of thinking about things. I feel we saw that on the train and at the end of their friendship as well (when Lily old him she detested dark magic and he not only thought it a laugh, he didn't see any difference between that and light magic).

On top of that while they were friends, they were separated by being in different houses and so they would only be able to meet every so often because in their free time they had other activities to do and other friends as well. In the summer, Lily being from the better side of the tracks of a working family, likely went on vacation - so they couldn't meet up all that much then either, imo. That is why I believe Snape remained so in the dark about Lily and misjudged her so badly, believing that she would ever go for his doing anything associated with Death Eaters. But to me there is a blindness there anyway because it is common sense that she would not be impressed by his joining a group that looked down upon and targeted people like her to be killed.

They had a friendship that was on all the year round. So they must have understood and known each other, else I feel their friendship would not have lasted as long as it did, when they had so much going against them (being in different Houses, coming from different backgrounds etc) IMO.

Actually I think that the fact they were not together that often is what kept the friendship going as long as it did. In my judgment, it allowed for Lily to continue to believe that perhaps Snape was really the person that he seemed to be around her, and not the kid he was with his friends. I feel that is why SWM was such a definitive moment for Lily. It wasn't because he called her a Mudblood specifically, imo, it was because he was behaving like he did around his friends (issuing a dark curse and calling someone a Mudblood) when he was with her and none of his friends were around so she could not use that as an excuse for him any more. She realized that he had been curbing his behavior to some degree in front of her, imo.

Since she was defending him at the time, she likely realized that he'd allowed his jealousy to get the better of him and he'd taken it out on her as well as his enemies. That was just the budding death eater aspect. I also feel that she was upset at the fact that he claimed to be her friend, and in that scene, Snape's enemy ended up defending her against Snape.

Snape may have thought that he could turn Lily around to his way of thinking, that IMO is not wrong.

Trying to turn Lily into a budding Death Eater is not wrong? It is in my opinion. But Lily would never have gone for it; she would have likely responded like JKR did on that subject: 'how dare you' .

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by wingardium713

I see the same thing. I think the fact that Snape refers to Lily by her maiden name indicates that he has not accepted her marriage. I think that is why JKR had him say that.

Exactly. It's a clear clue that Snape doesn't just 'respect Lily's decision'.

Originally Posted by wingardium713

I don't think we have any evidence that Dumbledore was more likely to save Lily than the entire family, so why start with Lily as your lead off person needing saving (Harry would have made more sense. Who doesn't want to save a baby? Well, other than Voldemort). If Dumbledore asked him why he wanted the family saved, he could have mentioned that he does it for Lily then (I think that presenting things that way would have made a stronger case for getting help)

Yup. It was deliberate on Jo's part, to show that Snape didn't care about what Lily held dear. It just emphasizes his utter lack of empathy, even for someone he had obsessed over for so long. IMO, it also shows that Snape did not really love Lily as she was, and was in love with a false image of her.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I thought that was a four on one which went on for almost all the 7 years. I will not go into that in detail here, though.

That's off-topic. But, it is canon that Snape attacked James after SWM, and with lethal force. Whether he was successful or not doesn't really matter. The fact that Snape did attack James with Sectumsempra goes against the statement that he 'respected Lily's choices'.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

We don't know that he used it often. But I agree Lupin said that curse was his specialty.

Yeah, and we see Snape using it on James in SWM, at the end of fifth year. It was on his sixth year potions text, and it was marked 'for enemies'. James was his enemy. And Lupin says that it was always Snape's specialty.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

On what do you base this on? I find no canon for this, personally.

Well, if he thought that becoming a DE would impress Lily, he obviously doesn't understand her. And yeah, that is canon, as the author stated it.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I respectfully disagree. There is no canon for this.

You're welcome to disagree. That's what I concluded, based on Snape as he is portrayed in the books, and from what the author reveals about him.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I respectfully disagree with this, considering what Snape did in his lifetime.

Again, you're welcome. I was talking about Snape as a DE, and in that context, Snape did not value human life. There is a change later in life.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Could you please give canon for this?

For Snape being tenacious? Well, how about the fact that he can't seem to get over his mistreatment by James Potter twenty years later? Or the fact that he can't let go of Lily even after her death?

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I would call it love, personally. People who are obssessed cannot IMO do the things Snape did.

Obsessive love is a strong emotion, IMO, and it can make people do some pretty crazy things.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

That was Snape going to apologize for his wrong words. Lily broke off with him, and frankly Snape was not allowed to talk I thought. Lily came, she spoke and she went away was what it looked to me.

Well, what Snape did was pretty bad. I don't think that Snape ever had a chance after that, and I'd have been disgusted with Lily if she'd taken him back. Besides, it didn't seem that Snape had anything worthwhile to say. He opens his mouth once, then closes it without talking. The next time, he struggles on the verge of speech. IMO, in both cases, he had the opportunity to present his case, but simply couldn't find anything that would help him.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Well we have Dumbledore's account of James wounding Snape so much that he could not heal in OOTP. Plus Sirius and Remus practically admitted it in OOTP as well IMO.

That was about emotional wounds, not physical ones. And that has nothing to do with what I said.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Because Voldmeort would be the one who would cast the killing curse and Snape wanted an assurance from him. naturally he could not ask for Harry or James, so he came running to Dumbledore, because while he did not at that time care about Harry or James, I think he knew Lily did.

That does not answer my question, really. That entire paragraph I posted is the question in whole.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Personally, I think Snape understood Lily very, very well, because friendship for over 6 years cannot happen without understanding and knowing of each other.

Normally, yes. But in Snape's case, he wasn't really friends with Lily, IMO. He was obsessed with her, and had fallen so completely in love with his false-image of her, that he doesn't see what's really there. He blocks her out whenever she says something that doesn't fit with this false-image, and so, he doesn't really understand all of Lily. He doesn't understand why Petunia is important to her, or why she thinks Dark magic isn't fun or any of that. This is shown quite clearly in canon, in the scene where Harry doubts that Snape even heard Lily's scriptures about his friends.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

They had a friendship that was on all the year round. So they must have understood and known each other, else I feel their friendship would not have lasted as long as it did, when they had so much going against them (being in different Houses, coming from different backgrounds etc) IMO.

But Lily makes it quite clear that she was not happy about their relationship. The fragments that we see also show pretty much the same thing. Then there's the fact that their friendship wasn't widely known, which would not be the case if they were spending every moment of their free time together. It is possible to be friends for a very long time and still not be close. I mean, I've known my barber since I was like 4 years old. I still don't know much about him, other than that he's very good at his job, and is very interesting company when I'm having a haircut. So, really, the duration of the friendship really doesn't imply closeness or a high level of mutual understanding.