Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I meant in the books. While I agree that indeed Snape become a DE, the reasons are not really stated in the books and are up for assumption IMO.

I didn't really give it much thought but I always assumed it had more to do with his home life.Snape home wasn't a safe place for him,a place of peace.Which I think essentially every home should be.His father was nasty and ,to my understanding,implied to be a violent dangerous person.I doubt a child would grow up in that environment and not feel scared. Children who usually don't feel safe in their homes and feel fear usually take this with them.I thought he desire to be a deatheater was a sign of wanting power,rooted subconsciously in wanting to protect himself.
This is just me and amateur psychology though,just a thought.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Actually I think that the fact they were not together that often is what kept the friendship going as long as it did. In my judgment, it allowed for Lily to continue to believe that perhaps Snape was really the person that he seemed to be around her, and not the kid he was with his friends.

I think otherwise. I think it was because they had such a strong friendship that they continued to be friends even after they were sorted into different Houses. Had it been like you said, then their friendship would have gradually fallen apart within the first year or two. It would not have lasted that long IMO.

Trying to turn Lily into a budding Death Eater is not wrong? It is in my opinion. But Lily would never have gone for it; she would have likely responded like JKR did on that subject: 'how dare you' .

Where did I say Snape was trying to turn Lily into a DE? I meant that Snape thought that he could convince Lily that he being a DE would not be as bad as she may have thought. And while he was wrong in thinking so; it does not necessarily mean he was wrong in understanding everything about her IMO.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Yup. It was deliberate on Jo's part, to show that Snape didn't care about what Lily held dear. It just emphasizes his utter lack of empathy, even for someone he had obsessed over for so long. IMO, it also shows that Snape did not really love Lily as she was, and was in love with a false image of her.

And yet Snape gave his life for what Lily held more than dear; dearest than her own life, than James. Harry IMO.

That's off-topic. But, it is canon that Snape attacked James after SWM, and with lethal force.

I respectfully disagree that Snape attacked anyone with lethal force.

Whether he was successful or not doesn't really matter. The fact that Snape did attack James with Sectumsempra goes against the statement that he 'respected Lily's choices'.

Could you provide canon for this, please.

Yeah, and we see Snape using it on James in SWM, at the end of fifth year.

There is no canon for this eityher IMO.

It was on his sixth year potions text, and it was marked 'for enemies'. James was his enemy. And Lupin says that it was always Snape's specialty.

I agree with this, only I am not sure about Lupin saying that it was always Snape's speciality.

You're welcome to disagree. That's what I concluded, based on Snape as he is portrayed in the books, and from what the author reveals about him.

I concluded something else.

Again, you're welcome. I was talking about Snape as a DE, and in that context, Snape did not value human life. There is a change later in life.

I agree with this.

For Snape being tenacious? Well, how about the fact that he can't seem to get over his mistreatment by James Potter twenty years later?

Because he was wounded beyond repair IMO. Dumbledore says so to Harry in OOTP as well.

Or the fact that he can't let go of Lily even after her death?

What is wrong in that? I remember my grandfather very lovingly even today and he died some 20 years back. I have spoken so much about him to my kids who have not seen him, that even they feel they know him. I don't think I am obssessvie or that loving him is wrong.

Obsessive love is a strong emotion, IMO, and it can make people do some pretty crazy things.

Like what? I mean, what crazy things did you feel Snape did because he was in love with Lily?

That does not answer my question, really. That entire paragraph I posted is the question in whole.

Because I really don't think it is a death deal. Even if he came to Dumbledore, Voldemort was still going to attack the Potters and kill them. This way, he first sought, begged or did what he could to get an assurance from Voldemort to spare Lily's life and then came running to Dumbledore, where he could have been captured and kissed and/or killed. Still Snape took that chance IMO.

I mean, I've known my barber since I was like 4 years old. I still don't know much about him, other than that he's very good at his job, and is very interesting company when I'm having a haircut. So, really, the duration of the friendship really doesn't imply closeness or a high level of mutual understanding.

Friendship IMO is something different from simply knowing a person. I know tons of people; not all of them are my friends.

Snape and Lily were best friends; that is very much canon (TPT -- DH)

Originally Posted by Ifink2much

I didn't really give it much thought but I always assumed it had more to do with his home life.Snape home wasn't a safe place for him,a place of peace.Which I think essentially every home should be.His father was nasty and ,to my understanding,implied to be a violent dangerous person.I doubt a child would grow up in that environment and not feel scared. Children who usually don't feel safe in their homes and feel fear usually take this with them.I thought he desire to be a deatheater was a sign of wanting power,rooted subconsciously in wanting to protect himself.
This is just me and amateur psychology though,just a thought.

Great post!

The entire post is my opinion only.

[Drusilla]

Just another friendly Mod reminder that we're in a discussion here, so IMOs remain essential- please do clarify statements as opinion or back them up with canon wherever possible.

And now, back to the debate..

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

We have canon that Snape wanted Lily.

No, we don't. We have canon that Snape loved Lily - whether it was romantic kind of love or love for a close friend is a matter of personal opinion. But the only bit about Snape "wanting " Lily was said by Voldemort, and I think it was stated very clearly in the book that Voldemort was wrong.

Snape also does not understand Lily at all. He thinks that becoming a powerful DE would impress her, so it's likely that he thought she'd come back to him if James was out of the picture. Thus, I don't think that its too far fetched. Snape doesn't value human life, after all, and tends to objectify Lily.

So basically you agree with Voldemort's assessment of Snape's feelings completely, am I right?
This doesn't explain, however, why Snape agreed to protect Harry if he saw Lily as nothing more than an object.

Exactly. It's a clear clue that Snape doesn't just 'respect Lily's decision'.

It can be interpreted as Snape being in denial or just not wanting to link Lily's name with hated Potter, but honestly I cannot blame him for that. I don't think it's easy to put up with the fact that you've lost the love of your life to your worst enemy.

Later in the book, however, Snape does refer to Lily as "Lily Potter". Now that's a clear clue that as years passed he learnt to live with it and respect Lily’s choice.

It was deliberate on Jo's part, to show that Snape didn't care about what Lily held dear. It just emphasizes his utter lack of empathy, even for someone he had obsessed over for so long.

Well, what JKR wanted to show in this scene is entirely a matter of personal interpretation. For instance, I don't see any evidence in the books showing that Snape completely lacked empathy and I read the scene in question in an absolutely different way.

IMO, it also shows that Snape did not really love Lily as she was, and was in love with a false image of her

I'm inclined to agree with this. Severus and Lily parted ways when they were both 16. Between the break up with Snape and her death Lily had a lot of time to grow up and change. Severus continued to love the image of Lily he still had in his memory - Lily the 16-year-old girl. He didn't know anything about Lily the grown woman.

That's off-topic. But, it is canon that Snape attacked James after SWM, and with lethal force. Whether he was successful or not doesn't really matter. The fact that Snape did attack James with Sectumsempra goes against the statement that he 'respected Lily's choices'.

The only scene in which Snape attacked Potter with a spell that looked similar to Sectumsempra was SWM. How does this "go against the statement that he 'respected Lily's choices'"? Actually Lily didn't seem to mind.

As for Snape hexing James in their 7th year, there's no evidence in the text proving he used Sectumsempra. If Snape had used this spell on a regular basis with the intention of killing or scarring James, surely Sirius and Lupin would have mentioned it to Harry in OotP. Come to think of it, when we see James in DH, there's no mention of any scars on his face or hands. Also, I have trouble believing that a student who had used a lethal Dark spell on others would have been allowed to stay at school. Harry was nearly expelled for trying that thing on Draco.

And Lupin says that it was always Snape's specialty.

They might have faced each other in battle after school. Or maybe Lupin knew it from werevolves or other Order members who had fought with Snape and other DE. Again, I doubt very much that Snape could just walk around slashing and slicing people open left, right and center when he was at school without attracting the attention of the teachers. And then he would have been expelled.

Well, if he thought that becoming a DE would impress Lily, he obviously doesn't understand her. And yeah, that is canon, as the author stated it.

Snape was anything but idiot, and only a complete idiot would hope to get the girl by means of hanging out with people who consider the girl inferior to them.

It's possible, however, that Snape thought that becoming a DE was his only chance of gaining a more important social status and money. Given that his rival was a wealthy boy from an aristocratic family, that makes sense, IMO.

I agree that Snape does not seem to understand Lily's concerns, but he is not the only one in this. James is pretty clueless as well - he humiliates Lily's best friend in public to get her attention and when she reacts agressively, he genuinely doesn't understand what her problem is. He even goes as far as start blackmailing her into dating with him.

For Snape being tenacious? Well, how about the fact that he can't seem to get over his mistreatment by James Potter twenty years later? Or the fact that he can't let go of Lily even after her death?

What does this have to do with Snape being tenacious? It only shows that his feelings (both negative and positive) were deep, strong and genuine. As it has already been pointed out by other posters, there is nothing in in the books to suggest that Snape pursued Lily after their break up. Nothing, not a single thing. If anyone's tenacious, it's James.

IMO, in both cases, he had the opportunity to present his case, but simply couldn't find anything that would help him.

Or he was simply too shocked and upset to be able to say something coherent. That happens to many people all the time - they get stressed and are unable to express their thoughts properly. Besides, the moment Snape starts saying something, Lily cuts him off and leaves.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If Snape really wanted this, then I think he could have done this even before Lily married James. He was a DE and there was no need for him to see Lily marry James and be happy. He could have got his DE friends and tried to harm James.

Not to mention that he could have easily whipped up some Love Potion like Merope or Romilda Vane and fed it to Lily when they were still friends.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Raelis

INot to mention that he could have easily whipped up some Love Potion like Merope or Romilda Vane and fed it to Lily when they were still friends.

WOW! I never thought of this. There was so much Snape could have done if he wanted to break James and Lily's marriage or even try and break their relationship in school or like you said try and keep Lily to himself even before that. As far as I can see he never does so. He respects Lily's decision, even though it involved his hated enemy IMO.
---------------

Great post Raelis!

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by Raelis

No, we don't. We have canon that Snape loved Lily - whether it was romantic kind of love or love for a close friend is a matter of personal opinion. But the only bit about Snape "wanting " Lily was said by Voldemort, and I think it was stated very clearly in the book that Voldemort was wrong.

I think the canon shows us on the Tonks occasion that a persons Patronus can take on the form of the person they romantically love. I never really thought, and thats just my opinion, that Snape simply loved Lily as a friend. His jealousy toward James shows otherwise, or so I thought. I always figured that that was why his Patronus was a doe..?

So basically you agree with Voldemort's assessment of Snape's feelings completely, am I right?
This doesn't explain, however, why Snape agreed to protect Harry if he saw Lily as nothing more than object.

That's true. I think Snape both adored and desired Lily, both sides of the romantic scale. But Voldemort didn't understand that overall love arc. So the offer that Snape would be able to "have" her, didn't suit Snape. I think that Snape agreed to protect Harry because he loved her so much that he felt little choice in the matter. I don't think he could have seen her purely as an object. If that were true, he would have gotten over it.

But I don't think TGW is agreeing with you on that either. I think she's saying that Snape objectifies her in the general sense, seeing her as he sees other things, but that she was definitely the woman he loved intently. It had just never happened before in his life, so I don't think he knew what to do with it..

It can be interpreted as Snape being in denial or just not wanting to link Lily's name with hated Potter, but honestly I cannot blame him for that. I don't think it's easy to put up with the fact that you've lost the love of your life to your worst enemy.

I agree with you there.

Later in the book, however, Snape does refer to Lily as "Lily Potter". Now that's a clear clue that as years passed he learnt to live with it and respect Lily’s choice.

I'm not sure he ever respected it, but he did come to accept it. There was nothing more he could do. Dumbledore referred to her and James collectively as "the Potters". I think Snape simply came to hear and understand that.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Severus and Lily parted ways when they were both 16. Between the break up with Snape and her death Lily had a lot of time to grow up and change. Severus continued to love the image of Lily he still had in his memory - Lily the 16-year-old girl. He didn't know anything about Lily the grown woman.

Though I see where that comes from, I also don't think she changed a whole lot. Her principles, bravery and strength appear to stay much the same. I agree with you on the point, but perhaps not on the finer details that we know so little about..

The only scene in which Snape attacked Potter with a spell that looked similar to Sectumsempra was SWM. How does this "go against the statement that he 'respected Lily's choices'"? Actually Lily didn't seem to mind.

I agree with that for sure. But nor did it make Snape a hero in her eyes, showing that her principles against violence were pretty far spreading and very noble.

As for Snape hexing James in their 7th year, there's no evidence in the text proving he used Sectumsempra. If Snape had used this spell on a regular basis with the intention of killing or scarring James, surely Sirius and Lupin would have mentioned it to Harry in OotP. Come to think of it, when we see James in DH, there's no mention of any scars on his face or hands. Also, I have trouble believing that a student who had used a lethal Dark spell on others would have been allowed to stay at school. Harry was nearly expelled for trying that thing on Draco.

All of that is true. I don't think he used Sectumsempra that often in school. His legacy was fairly proved by Levicorpus, so I don't think he intended anyone to start using it. if it ever got back to him, he would be in big trouble for sure. The last thing he would have wanted would have been to be expelled and sent home.

Snape was anything but idiot, and only a complete idiot would hope to get the girl by means of hanging out with people who consider the girl inferior to them.

He definitely wasn't being logical, but I figure that it was the only way he saw to showing her he could be powerful and strong. He never played Quidditch (it seems) and that was an area where James Potter excelled. He said himself on the train that he preferred brains to brawn, so it seems he picked something he saw as brainy and just got caught up in the brawn of it. It was his brains that gave him the initiative to make those spells he wrote in the book. Just a thought.

It's possible, however, that Snape thought that becoming a DE was his only chance of gaining a more important social status and money. Given that his rival was a wealthy boy from an aristocratic family, that makes sense, IMO.

Very much so, yep!

I agree that Snape does not seem to understand Lily's concerns, but he is not the only one in this. James is pretty clueless as well - he humiliates Lily's best friend in public to get her attention and when she reacts agressively, he genuinely doesn't understand what her problem is. He even goes as far as start blackmailing her into dating with him.

I just think they were both clueless as to how to impress her.. Lily wasn't gonig to be bought or bribed or injured. She was a tough lady.

What does this have to do with Snape being tenacious? It only shows that his feelings (both negative and positive) were deep, strong and genuine. As it has already been pointed out by other posters, there is nothing in in the books to suggest that Snape pursued Lily after their break up. Nothing, not a single thing. If anyone's tenacious, it's James.

It's true that Snape, regardless of perceived tenacity in other areas, didn't tail her. He seemed to let her go. My point would be that he probably tried to get over her. I would have done that.

Not to mention that he could have easily whipped up some Love Potion like Merope or Romilda Vane and fed it to Lily when they were still friends.

The fact that he didn't, when he plainly showed the skill to, is a strong indicator that he respected her hugely. I had not thought about that one before!

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

But I don't think TGW is agreeing with you on that either. I think she's saying that Snape objectifies her in the general sense, seeing her as he sees other things, but that she was definitely the woman he loved intently. It had just never happened before in his life, so I don't think he knew what to do with it..

Vduck, I just did not understand. Could you just expand on this, please?

I'm not sure he ever respected it, but he did come to accept it. There was nothing more he could do. Dumbledore referred to her and James collectively as "the Potters". I think Snape simply came to hear and understand that.

I think Snape respected Lily's choice more than anything else. He also accepted it like you said and I agree with that, because Lily wanted it. I think he hated it and probably was consumed with jealousy especially in the begining, but even then I think he respected Lily's decision and kept away.

The bitterness that was with Snape was more for him than for anybody else IMO. It was for what he lost, and how, and his role in it that probably consumed him once Lily died. But I think his love for her never went away.

[Raelis]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

I think the canon shows us on the Tonks occasion that a persons Patronus can take on the form of the person they romantically love. I never really thought, and thats just my opinion, that Snape simply loved Lily as a friend. His jealousy toward James shows otherwise, or so I thought. I always figured that that was why his Patronus was a doe..?

If I remember right, Patronus can change its form under the influence of strong emotions which do not necessarily have something to do with romantic love. I know that it's hinted heavily in the books that the feelings of teenage Snape are romantic in nature, but I find it hard to believe that he continued nurturing the same kind of love for Lily for the rest of his life. I prefer to think that he cherished the memory of his best childhood friend with whom he had experienced many happy moments and whom he lost. For me it's more convincing.

I think that Snape agreed to protect Harry because he loved her so much that he felt little choice in the matter. I don't think he could have seen her purely as an object. If that were true, he would have gotten over it.

Exactly.

But I don't think TGW is agreeing with you on that either. I think she's saying that Snape objectifies her in the general sense, seeing her as he sees other things, but that she was definitely the woman he loved intently.

No, no, I was adressing vivekgk, not The_Green_Woods. I don't remember her ever saying that Snape objectified Lily.

Though I see where that comes from, I also don't think she changed a whole lot. Her principles, bravery and strength appear to stay much the same. I agree with you on the point, but perhaps not on the finer details that we know so little about..

It's just that people tend to change quite a lot between their teenage years and adulthood. Lily was still very young when she died, but she was already grown nonetheless. She had a child, a husband a new set of friends who undoubtedly influenced her in a lot of ways. So her principles, bravery and strength remained the same, but her tastes, habits, interests, her opinions of some things probably changed. It's natural.

But nor did it make Snape a hero in her eyes, showing that her principles against violence were pretty far spreading and very noble.

Maybe, maybe not. I actually see the situation in a different light. When I was rereading SWM some time ago, it struck me that Lily might have been deliberately holding James's attention, distracting him, waiting for the spell which had been put on Severus to wear off. Then Severus would have been able to defend himself on his own. She definitely knew that if she had actually released Snape from the spell, it would have been a humiliating experience for him, as if he had not been able to deal with the problem by himself and had had to resort to his friend's help (a friend who also happened to be a girl - I never met any boy who would want to be saved from trouble by a girl.).

It's true that Snape, regardless of perceived tenacity in other areas, didn't tail her. He seemed to let her go. My point would be that he probably tried to get over her. I would have done that.

The fact that he didn't, when he plainly showed the skill to, is a strong indicator that he respected her hugely.

My thoughts exactly.

The_Green_Woods, thanks!

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think Snape respected Lily's choice more than anything else. He also accepted it like you said and I agree with that, because Lily wanted it. I think he hated it and probably was consumed with jealousy especially in the begining, but even then I think he respected Lily's decision and kept away.

The bitterness that was with Snape was more for him than for anybody else IMO. It was for what he lost, and how, and his role in it that probably consumed him once Lily died. But I think his love for her never went away.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Vduck, I just did not understand. Could you just expand on this, please?

Um, sure. It just might take a while! I was talking about it with wickedwickedboy over in Snape's thread in LS. My point was that Snape grew up in an inhospitable environment. His mother likely taught him dark spells and her own relationship with Tobias Snape was difficult and without salvation. There was no way Snape grew up seeing healthy relationships around him, so my point was that he would be unable to really see what a working relationship was like. It would scar him permanently in that he would never see love and so would never know what to do with it if ever it happened to him. We know that Tobias and Eileen's relationship was a turbulent one, and so I don't think Snape was able to be honest with Lily, to tell her how he felt, to explain to her why he loved her, or even that he did love her.

I think Snape respected Lily's choice more than anything else. He also accepted it like you said and I agree with that, because Lily wanted it. I think he hated it and probably was consumed with jealousy especially in the begining, but even then I think he respected Lily's decision and kept away.

The bitterness that was with Snape was more for him than for anybody else IMO. It was for what he lost, and how, and his role in it that probably consumed him once Lily died. But I think his love for her never went away.

Hmm. Okay, I think he did come to finally respect her decision, but reluctantly, and it definitely didn't make him accept it with a huge margin of grace. If he did truly respect it, then that also explains why he stayed away, but I also think he angered and humiliated himself, and found it difficult to really admit that she picked James. I think Snape did think a lot of himself, and found it so difficult to see her leave him behind.

Poor Snape...

Originally Posted by Raelis

I know that it's hinted heavily in the books that the feelings of teenage Snape are romantic in nature, but I find it hard to believe that he continued nurturing the same kind of love for Lily for the rest of his life. I prefer to think that he cherished the memory of his best childhood friend with who had experienced many happy moments and whom he lost. For me it's more convincing.

That's cool with me! It would totally wreck my dreams, but there you go... !!

Incidentally Raelis, I agree with TGW. Your posts are lovely!

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Raelis

No, we don't. We have canon that Snape loved Lily - whether it was romantic kind of love or love for a close friend is a matter of personal opinion. But the only bit about Snape "wanting " Lily was said by Voldemort, and I think it was stated very clearly in the book that Voldemort was wrong.

Actually Dumbledore said it as well: 'so the father and son can die as long as you get what you want?'. (DH-TPT). But I don't think Snape 'desired' her in the immoral way Voldemort was thinking. My impression was that he wanted her to eventually be his wife and have kids, etc.

It can be interpreted as Snape being in denial or just not wanting to link Lily's name with hated Potter, but honestly I cannot blame him for that. I don't think it's easy to put up with the fact that you've lost the love of your life to your worst enemy.

I would have to disagree, only because Snape was experiencing unrequited love. Snape and Lily never had a romantic relationship and so it was not like Snape 'lost the love of his life to another' in the traditional sense. He lost a friend due to his behavior and Lily didn't start actually dating James until over a year later. James was not involved, so Snape didn't actually lose her to him, imo. Snape lost her to "everybody", meaning, she could have taken up with any boy after their friendship ended and eventually married a variety of men. In fact, she was quite popular according to JKR, so she was likely dating other boys the whole time until she finally started to date James.

So Snape could not have rationally thought of losing Lily to anything but his own behavior and JKR's statement that Snape loathed Harry because he represented Lily's preference for another man supports this idea. I understood that to mean that it didn't matter who the man was, Snape didn't want Lily to love anyone except him. Of course it being his enemy didn't help matters, but due to his emotions for her, Snape didn't wish for her to love anyone at all except himself, imo.

Later in the book, however, Snape does refer to Lily as "Lily Potter". Now that's a clear clue that as years passed he learnt to live with it and respect Lily’s choice.

I would disagree and I feel this is even more support for the view I just gave above. Snape just wanted Lily to prefer him to other men. Following Lily's death, there was no point as trying to delude himself into thinking that one day she might be his. His own act had helped ensure that the Potters would be together forever in the afterworld - a place he could not access. But in my view, this recognition was not precisely a step forward for Snape because from that point his unrequited emotions became obsessive and possessive in nature, imo. He loathed Harry the representation of Lily's preference for another man which was an ever present reminder of that fact, imo. Also, we saw that even after Snape called her Lily Potter, he went to #12G and ripped the family photo in half, taking her part for himself and throwing the rest of the family in the photo to the floor in such a way that it landed beneath the dresser (DH TPT).

That to me showed the character of Snape's emotions for Lily and how he viewed her relative to her marriage and child. And we are talking only James' legs here, , so it would seem that he still could not handle the idea of Lily loving any one more than him; not James and not Harry as the product of her love for her husband. In my opinion, that shows a clear disrespect for her preference for another man and her choice to marry him. I would not say he 'learned to live with it' either; I think he had a very difficult time swallowing it his entire life.

They might have faced each other in battle after school. Or maybe Lupin knew it from werevolves or other Order members who had fought with Snape and other DE. Again, I doubt very much that Snape could just walk around slashing and slicing people open left, right and center when he was at school without attracting the attention of the teachers. And then he would have been expelled.

Actually, in GoF, we learn that Sirius didn't know for certain that Snape was a DE, which makes sense because the DEs wore masks. So Lupin did not learn this information at that time, imo. If the Order members had known about Snape being a DE and Sectumsempra being his specialty, then Lupin and Sirius would have known he was a DE also, imo, but they didn't. Nor could Lupin have learned it at any point after that, imo, because Snape was working at Hogwarts and turning to the good side; I doubt he went around using Sectumsempra at that point.

Most hex wars we saw (like with Draco and Harry), were done away from the sight of professors. I agree with you that if a professor was around, Snape would not use the spell. I feel it was when Snape was following the Marauders around as they tromped through the grounds (POA/DH). They would be away from others and when they caught Snape following them - which they did (POA), then it is likely James and Sirius would move forward and at that point Snape would use his Sectumsempra as it would give him the advantage against the two of them. That would seem like the most reasonable explanation to me - I mean it could be that Snape was using it on other students as his friends had done (DH - Lily tells us that Mulciber used dark magic against Mary and Snape thought it just a laugh) - but I would imagine that had happened in a private location also and so perhaps that is what Snape was doing. We don't know, but we do know Lupin recognized the spell as "Snape's specialty" and it appears the only time he could have come to that realization was when they were all at Hogwarts, imo.

Snape was anything but idiot, and only a complete idiot would hope to get the girl by means of hanging out with people who consider the girl inferior to them.

According to JKR, he felt that joining the DEs would impress Lily. She also said he didn't understand Lily's aversion for his friends. I think Snape simply had a very low social intelligence level, not that he was an idiot.

It's possible, however, that Snape thought that becoming a DE was his only chance of gaining a more important social status and money. Given that his rival was a wealthy boy from an aristocratic family, that makes sense, IMO.

I would have to disagree. I feel Snape understood that there were other ways to become an impressive person. He knew about Aurors and Unspeakables; he knew that Dumbledore was considered "impressive". In my view, he quested to join Voldemort as the route to be impressive because it was in line with his own values and thinking to do so. Also, Voldemort was becoming a big success at that point, people already feared to say his name (Lily called him You-Know-Who in DH TPT). So I believe Snape simply thought it was the "best means" for him to become impressive as it fit right in with his lifestyle. I feel the other budding Death eaters likely reinforced his belief with their acceptance of him and his values.

I agree that Snape does not seem to understand Lily's concerns, but he is not the only one in this.

Based on my experience, girls are confusing for younger guys in many respects. However, Snape seemed to not understand Lily on a very basic level - to the point where he appeared to me to simply ignore or disregard anything that went contrary to his thinking about her and her values (as shown in their conversation in DH TPT).

What does this have to do with Snape being tenacious? It only shows that his feelings (both negative and positive) were deep, strong and genuine.

Tenacious merely means to hold fast to something or to persist in something - like keeping a tenacious grip on someone's arm so you don't lose them in the midst of a rowdy crowd. Snape did tend to hold on to things in an emotional sense, imo. I feel his long standing emotions for Lily, James, Sirius, Harry, and his own feelings associated with his past that kept him embittered, were all signs that he had a tendency to tenacious in that regard. One could simply call it obsessive or grudge holding or whatever, imo.

Or he was simply too shocked and upset to be able to say something coherent. That happens to many people all the time - they get stressed and are unable to express their thoughts properly. Besides, the moment Snape starts saying something Lily cuts him off and leaves.

I agree, but generally, you then go and find the person if you have some way to reconcile the situation, imo. Snape had two years to show Lily that the things she had said about him were not true and that she had misjudged his character. But Snape did not do that; instead he moved further down the dark path and ended up joining the Death Eaters. The things that Lily said to him that day were all truths which he didn't deny. He did present his case when it came to his calling people Mudblood - he told her he hadn't meant to call her that. But Snape failed to see that wasn't the point as Lily pointed out. His calling her Mudblood simply proved that while in the past he had not called her one to her face, and thus she could pretend that when he did so with others it was not the 'real' Snape, imo. I feel she finally admitted to herself that the 'real' Snape was the person that he was around his friends as well as the individual he was around her. That is, he could control himself around her with respect to his dark interests, but they had truly become a part of his character by that point. Lily had been trying to convince herself that was not the case, imo.

Not to mention that he could have easily whipped up some Love Potion like Merope or Romilda Vane and fed it to Lily when they were still friends.

In my view, Snape wanted Lily to prefer him on her own. He didn't want to force her to prefer him. But that has nothing to do with jealousy, imo. When she went on to date James, I feel he became jealous and that is why he began hexing James at every opportunity. While I feel it was a means for Snape to take out the frustration and angst that his jealousy caused, it may well have served another purpose for him. Snape knew that Lily did not like hex wars and involving James in them may have caused the couple to break up, imo. Lily knew something about this - just not the extent of it, but knowing even a little would be enough for her to become unhappy about it. So I feel she also knew that Snape was provoking the situations and why he was doing so. I think that would have made her upset because she would not wish to be the cause of Snape doing that to her boyfriend. So I feel that for the most part, James didn't speak about it with her to spare her feelings, but Hogwarts is small, so she found out some times anyway.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine that went on too long. I think Snape knew that Lily knew the little she did about it and it wasn't helping to cause a rift in her relationship. Futher it likely just made him feel worse, imo, because I would imagine the vibes and/or looks Snape would get from Lily would not have been too nice at that point. So I imagine that after a while he'd just attempt to separate himself from Lily and her boyfriend pretty much altogether. That is speculation though; he may have kept it up all year, I just think that eventually that kind of thing would play out, even for someone like Snape who tended to hold on to grudges. Too, James was head boy and eventually he may have simply stopped hexing back and used a more official method of responding (writing Snape up) which would have become a headache for Snape, imo, and that may have been the end of it. .

Originally Posted by Raelis

If I remember right, Patronus can change its form under the influence of strong emotions which do not necessarily have something to do with romantic love. I know that it's hinted heavily in the books that the feelings of teenage Snape are romantic in nature, but I find it hard to believe that he continued nurturing the same kind of love for Lily for the rest of his life. I prefer to think that he cherished the memory of his best childhood friend with who had experienced many happy moments and whom he lost. For me it's more convincing.

But then JKR's comment that 'Snape loathed Harry because he represented Lily's preference for another man' would make no sense, imo. Nor would Snape's ripping the photo and crying over her portion as well as taking the portion of the letter with Lily's love on it make any sense to me. We have only had examples of the 'strong emotion' that Lupin spoke of in relation to patronuses "changing" with respect to romantic love. When Harry was undergoing strong emotional trauma, he was unable to produce a strong patronus; but it did not change, it was just weak in nature (DH Battle of Hogwarts). Tonk's love related problems caused an actual change as did Snape's, imo.

[Ifink2much]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

My point was that Snape grew up in an inhospitable environment. His mother likely taught him dark spells and her own relationship with Tobias Snape was difficult and without salvation. There was no way Snape grew up seeing healthy relationships around him, so my point was that he would be unable to really see what a working relationship was like. It would scar him permanently in that he would never see love and so would never know what to do with it if ever it happened to him. We know that Tobias and Eileen's relationship was a turbulent one, and so I don't think Snape was able to be honest with Lily, to tell her how he felt, to explain to her why he loved her, or even that he did love her.

I think this is a very important point.We lern how to deal with people mainly from our own family.Lessons taught to us when we are children ,the ones we adopt usually stay with us for a long time,and can even become lessons taught further to our own children.Snape basis was ,unsteady to say the least.Being sorted into Slytherin was never going to help the situation.
To be honest ,I can't see Snape mother of being much help,I get the impression that she was wrapped up in her own problems ,she maybe have even neglected him.That's just me speculating though.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Great post!

Thankyou

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by Ifink2much

I think this is a very important point.We lern how to deal with people mainly from our own family.Lessons taught to us when we are children ,the ones we adopt usually stay with us for a long time,and can even become lessons taught further to our own children.Snape basis was ,unsteady to say the least.Being sorted into Slytherin was never going to help the situation.
To be honest ,I can't see Snape mother of being much help,I get the impression that she was wrapped up in her own problems ,she maybe have even neglected him.That's just me speculating though.

Yep, that's exactly it. It was his mother who would have influenced him most, since she was the magician and he indicated that he really detested his father, yet mentioned nothing of his mother other than her partaking in the yelling. She appeared scared when Tobias yelled, but we don't know how violent the relationship got, and no matter which way you choose to go with that theory, Snape did not see a happy family in operation, in any of his early years, when those important images and thoughts are formed.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

Yep, that's exactly it. It was his mother who would have influenced him most, since she was the magician and he indicated that he really detested his father, yet mentioned nothing of his mother other than her partaking in the yelling. She appeared scared when Tobias yelled, but we don't know how violent the relationship got, and no matter which way you choose to go with that theory, Snape did not see a happy family in operation, in any of his early years, when those important images and thoughts are formed.

I think that Snape was influenced by his father's behavior. However, while on the one hand abhoring it, on the other, he embraced it. His young behavior with Lily on the train; his behavior and attitude while at Hogwarts as given in canon, his joining the Death Eaters and our knowledge of the way they behaved as well as his behavior with the children as an adult were all very similar to that which was depicted in the scene with Tobias and Eileen, imo. It was condescending, frightening, aggressive and belligerent; very dominating in nature and showed disregard for Eileen.

I think that Snape picked up on these things and subconsciously emulated them even during his friendship with Lily. He disregarded her feelings and opinions, imo (on the train when she was crying and later in their conversation when she was attempting to express her view on his outlook DH TPT) and he became agressive with her in that latter scene and took a controling and domineering stance (although she stood up to him "let me! let me!") and he was agressive and unable to control his own emotions in that light, by the end of that conversation, losing his ability to speak coherently at all. Snape also showed extreme disregard for Lily and her feelings in SWM, imo.

However, Snape was a better child than his father (although I feel he grew up to be quite similar). As a child and young person, he did seem to recognize when he went too far - even if it was after the fact. While he didn't seem to do this with his enemies, he did tend to recognize it relative to Lily, imo, but only when his behavior was greatly exaggerated. For example, he didn't seem to realize that telling her using dark magic was just a laugh to him would set her back up; but he did understand that publicly calling her a Mudblood might have dire ramifications.

But I did see seeds of Tobias in Snape in his interactions with Lily and I think that Tobias' influence became more a part of his in-grained character as he got older. But that is more for the Snape thread, I will finish this portion in that thread.

[vampiricduck]

Hello there. I've not spoken to you in a while! Real life called, it wanted to know I was still alive!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I think that Snape was influenced by his father's behavior. However, while on the one hand abhoring it, on the other, he embraced it. His young behavior with Lily on the train; his behavior and attitude while at Hogwarts as given in canon, his joining the Death Eaters and our knowledge of the way they behaved as well as his behavior with the children as an adult were all very similar to that which was depicted in the scene with Tobias and Eileen, imo. It was condescending, frightening, aggressive and belligerent; very dominating in nature and showed disregard for Eileen.

Yep. I agree with all of this. I'll add to it by saying that he embraced it because it was the only behaviour he really saw from a grown man in his early years. I see why it happened for sure, and I do pity him that this was all he saw. I'd have hated to be in that position.

I think that Snape picked up on these things and subconsciously emulated them even during his friendship with Lily. He disregarded her feelings and opinions, imo (on the train when she was crying and later in their conversation when she was attempting to express her view on his outlook DH TPT) and he became agressive with her in that latter scene and took a controling and domineering stance (although she stood up to him "let me! let me!") and he was agressive and unable to control his own emotions in that light, by the end of that conversation, losing his ability to speak coherently at all. Snape also showed extreme disregard for Lily and her feelings in SWM, imo.

I think he disregarded her to some extent, but not to this extent. I see the canon and believe it, and I know he did those things, but it almost (sadly) seemed like habit. He did try to make each of those things better, but his awful ability to put his foot in it overtook more often than not. He was rendered quite useless in those situations by terrible qualities that he found elsewhere. It also adds to the idea that the Eileen/Tobias relationship was degrading in every general sense. Clearly Snape got this dreadful mentality from somewhere. I assume it was from his father, the person he most hated and ironically, the person he turned out like.

However, Snape was a better child than his father (although I feel he grew up to be quite similar). As a child and young person, he did seem to recognize when he went too far - even if it was after the fact. While he didn't seem to do this with his enemies, he did tend to recognize it relative to Lily, imo, but only when his behavior was greatly exaggerated. For example, he didn't seem to realize that telling her using dark magic was just a laugh to him would set her back up; but he did understand that publicly calling her a Mudblood might have dire ramifications.

Yep, I agree with all of that!

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

I think he disregarded her to some extent, but not to this extent. I see the canon and believe it, and I know he did those things, but it almost (sadly) seemed like habit. He did try to make each of those things better, but his awful ability to put his foot in it overtook more often than not. He was rendered quite useless in those situations by terrible qualities that he found elsewhere. It also adds to the idea that the Eileen/Tobias relationship was degrading in every general sense. Clearly Snape got this dreadful mentality from somewhere. I assume it was from his father, the person he most hated and ironically, the person he turned out like.

I am not certain what you mean by 'not to this extent.' Only because for example on the train, his response to Lily telling him why she was crying (Petunia hated her) was "So what?" and when Lily said 'so she's my sister', Snape replied 'so what she's just a [muggle]'. To me that was not trying to make things better. And when he told her Mulciber using dark magic against Mary was just a laugh, Lily started speaking 'if you think that's funny-' and Snape interrupted her by changing the topic altogether. And that is what I am referring to be disregarding her feelings and views. To whatever extent a reader might consider that, well, that is what it was. To me, it seems to be disregarding them altogether.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

It does not necessarily mean he was wrong in understanding everything about her IMO.

It does, to an extent. It shows a fundamental difference in their values, morals etc. It's like a Nazi expecting a Jew to 'see that the holocaust is not that bad'.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

And yet Snape gave his life for what Lily held more than dear; dearest than her own life, than James. Harry IMO.

Not until he was guilt-tripped into it by Dumbledore. Before, he was just going to walk away. The only reason Snape does it is because Dumbledore tells him that it is what Lily would have wanted. Snape is unable to come to that conclusion on his own, which goes with what I said about Snape not being able to understand Lily at all.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I respectfully disagree that Snape attacked anyone with lethal force.

You disagree with what is on-page? It was a year after SWM at least that James started going out with Lily. Lupin and Sirius tell Harry that Snape never missed an opportunity to hex James, and later tells Harry that Sectumsempra was always his specialty. We also see him using the same spell on James in SWM.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

There is no canon for this either IMO.

We see Snape using a nonverbal cutting spell on James. We know that Snape developed a cutting curse for using on his enemies. We also have Lupin's statement that the Sectumsempra was always Snape's specialty. It's more logical then, to conclude that the spell used in SWM was Sectumsempra, rather than to follow the conjecture that Snape developed a whole other nonverbal cutting spell, exclusively for use on James on that occasion.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I agree with this, only I am not sure about Lupin saying that it was always Snape's speciality.

I am. I looked it up.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I concluded something else.

Obviously.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Because he was wounded beyond repair IMO. Dumbledore says so to Harry in OOTP as well.

OoTP `But I forgot - another old man's mistake - that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father - I was wrong.'

That's the full quote from the text. Snape is unable to overcome his feelings about James. In other words, he is unable to let go. That's what I said.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

What is wrong in that? I remember my grandfather very lovingly even today and he died some 20 years back. I have spoken so much about him to my kids who have not seen him, that even they feel they know him. I don't think I am obssessvie or that loving him is wrong.

That's really a completely different scenario. I don't see how you can compare the two.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Because I really don't think it is a death deal. Even if he came to Dumbledore, Voldemort was still going to attack the Potters and kill them. This way, he first sought, begged or did what he could to get an assurance from Voldemort to spare Lily's life and then came running to Dumbledore, where he could have been captured and kissed and/or killed. Still Snape took that chance IMO.

Still, my question remains unanswered. Why didn't this bring about a change in Snape?

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

Friendship IMO is something different from simply knowing a person. I know tons of people; not all of them are my friends.

Snape and Lily were best friends; that is very much canon (TPT -- DH)

Yeah, they do say that, but from the overall tone of the conversation, it seemed to me like the 'Best Friends' label had stopped sticking, and was peeling off a lot. It was almost as if Lily was frustrated with Snape for playing that card too often, for too much.
The entire post is my opinion only.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Raelis

No, we don't. We have canon that Snape loved Lily - whether it was romantic kind of love or love for a close friend is a matter of personal opinion. But the only bit about Snape "wanting " Lily was said by Voldemort, and I think it was stated very clearly in the book that Voldemort was wrong.

So basically you agree with Voldemort's assessment of Snape's feelings completely, am I right?

Not exactly. I also said that Snape never let go of his feelings for Lily. Voldemort thought that it was merely a passing fancy, and incorrectly judged the extent of Snape's obsession. But, yeah, I do think that Snape wanted Lily, romantically, as his own. I don't think that he valued the friendship as anything more than a way to get close to her, as a prelude to a romantic relationship.

Originally Posted by Raelis

This doesn't explain, however, why Snape agreed to protect Harry if he saw Lily as nothing more than an object.

I believe that it was mainly a desire to absolve himself of the guilt of being responsible for Lily's death. As he said, it was always about Lily, never Harry.

Originally Posted by Raelis

It can be interpreted as Snape being in denial or just not wanting to link Lily's name with hated Potter, but honestly I cannot blame him for that. I don't think it's easy to put up with the fact that you've lost the love of your life to your worst enemy.

Later in the book, however, Snape does refer to Lily as "Lily Potter". Now that's a clear clue that as years passed he learnt to live with it and respect Lily’s choice.

It did seem to me that he said that to Dumbledore mockingly, to emphasize the fact that he'd worked so hard to keep his enemy's son, born of the love of his life, alive.

His deeds following this also show that. Immediately afterwards, he vehemently insists that he cares only for Lily, and later on, he tears off James and Harry from the family photograph. IMO, that is somewhat symbolic of Snape ripping apart what was a happy family through his actions, and also of his desire to remove James and Harry 'from the picture'.

I've been reading "The Prince's Tale" again, and something about the scene on the hilltop with Snape and DD intrigues me. Snape shrinks into himself when Dumbledore tells him that he's disgusted with him for asking Voldemort to spare Lily. It's possible, IMO, that he felt guilty about it, because the part of him that was not terrified for Lily's life had hoped that James and Harry would die, and he would have Lily back.

Originally Posted by Raelis

I'm inclined to agree with this. Severus and Lily parted ways when they were both 16. Between the break up with Snape and her death Lily had a lot of time to grow up and change. Severus continued to love the image of Lily he still had in his memory - Lily the 16-year-old girl. He didn't know anything about Lily the grown woman.

I agree. But, I don't think that he understood Lily, even when they were friends.

Originally Posted by Raelis

As for Snape hexing James in their 7th year, there's no evidence in the text proving he used Sectumsempra. If Snape had used this spell on a regular basis with the intention of killing or scarring James, surely Sirius and Lupin would have mentioned it to Harry in OotP. Come to think of it, when we see James in DH, there's no mention of any scars on his face or hands. Also, I have trouble believing that a student who had used a lethal Dark spell on others would have been allowed to stay at school. Harry was nearly expelled for trying that thing on Draco.

A lot of the stuff, like the name for the spell, and the fact that Snape had created it, were only introduced in HBP. So, I don't see how Jo could have had Lupin or Sirius say it in OoTP. But, she does have Lupin say that Sectumsempra was always Snape's specialty in DH.

Following Occam's Razor, it all fits well together if the spell was Sectumsempra. As for the lack of any scarring, it's possible that James and Sirius, being the best students in the whole school, knew that dittany would prevent scarring, same as Snape. As for them not reporting Snape, I got the feeling that they preferred to take care of themselves. Gryffindors don't snitch, and all that.

Originally Posted by Raelis

They might have faced each other in battle after school. Or maybe Lupin knew it from werevolves or other Order members who had fought with Snape and other DE.

The problem with that is that Snape doesn't seem to have been a well-known DE. Sirius doesn't seem to have known that Snape was a DE. So, it's unlikely that Lupin ans Snape met in battle after school. In any case, the principle of Occam's Razor applies here too, and the easiest way to connect the dots here is to assume that Snape used it on James at school. After all, it was written down on Snape's sixth year text, and Snape had it working by fifth year end at the latest.

Originally Posted by Raelis

I agree that Snape does not seem to understand Lily's concerns, but he is not the only one in this. James is pretty clueless as well - he humiliates Lily's best friend in public to get her attention and when she reacts agressively, he genuinely doesn't understand what her problem is. He even goes as far as start blackmailing her into dating with him.

Yup. But the difference I see is that James's heart was in the right place. He was just prone to acting stupid around Lily and doing crazy, often idiotic things to get her attenttion.

Originally Posted by Raelis

As it has already been pointed out by other posters, there is nothing in in the books to suggest that Snape pursued Lily after their break up. Nothing, not a single thing.

As I said, the lack of mention does not mean that it didn't happen. Considering that the net effect was that the relationship ended that night, it doesn't make sense to show more scenes of Snape attempting reconciliation and Lily turning him down.

Originally Posted by Raelis

Or he was simply too shocked and upset to be able to say something coherent. That happens to many people all the time - they get stressed and are unable to express their thoughts properly. Besides, the moment Snape starts saying something, Lily cuts him off and leaves.

Okay, so what do you suppose Snape was going to say in his defense? Do you suppose that the fate of the relationship would have been different if Snape had been allowed to properly present his case? I don't think so, but I would definitely be interested in knowing what Snape could have said that would have changed everything.

Originally Posted by Raelis

Not to mention that he could have easily whipped up some Love Potion like Merope or Romilda Vane and fed it to Lily when they were still friends.

Okay, so we have 'Not Using a Love Potion on Lily' as a plus point for Snape. Sure.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I am not certain what you mean by 'not to this extent.' Only because for example on the train, his response to Lily telling him why she was crying (Petunia hated her) was "So what?" and when Lily said 'so she's my sister', Snape replied 'so what she's just a [muggle]'. To me that was not trying to make things better. And when he told her Mulciber using dark magic against Mary was just a laugh, Lily started speaking 'if you think that's funny-' and Snape interrupted her by changing the topic altogether. And that is what I am referring to be disregarding her feelings and views. To whatever extent a reader might consider that, well, that is what it was. To me, it seems to be disregarding them altogether.

It is, I just felt that you were overtly cruel, even though I happen to know that you're rather nice!

No, what I meant by " not to this extent" was more that it was an ironic inbuilt thing in him, a habit that he wasn't breaking. I don't excuse it, but at the same time, I do see where it comes from.

[Beatifically]

Originally Posted by Raelis

Later in the book, however, Snape does refer to Lily as "Lily Potter". Now that's a clear clue that as years passed he learnt to live with it and respect Lily’s choice.

I thought that at first when I was reading the chapter, but I changed my mine soon after when he ripped up the photo. He literally ripped her away from Harry and James and the symbolism is unsettling for me.

I agree that Snape does not seem to understand Lily's concerns, but he is not the only one in this. James is pretty clueless as well - he humiliates Lily's best friend in public to get her attention and when she reacts agressively, he genuinely doesn't understand what her problem is. He even goes as far as start blackmailing her into dating with him.

The difference is that Snape was supposedly Lily's best friend. I find it more surprising that Snape would think that of Lily. James at least had a reason for not knowing - he barely knew her. Not that that is an excuse for his behavior, but it makes more sense than Snape's belief.

Furthermore, the difference is that James at least changed for Lily, something Snape never did until he thought her life was in danger.

If anyone's tenacious, it's James.

How would James be tenacious?

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by Beatifically

I thought that at first when I was reading the chapter, but I changed my mine soon after when he ripped up the photo. He literally ripped her away from Harry and James and the symbolism is unsettling for me.

Wouldn't it have been easier for us all if he had just taken the whole picture? But I still see the point and where it came from, and I respect him for what he did. Because he did his duty.

Furthermore, the difference is that James at least changed for Lily, something Snape never did until he thought her life was in danger.

I know. It devastates me.. But a late change is better than none at all. It means that all the goodness was never overtaken.

How would James be tenacious?

I have no idea... I suppose he was dogged in trying to win her over.

[arithmancer]

Tenacious is not an insult.

The meaning that is used of people, means "persistent in maintaining, adhering to, or seeking something valued or desired". Snape exhibited this trait to various degrees at various times for various reasons, but most obviously when he agreed to do "Anything" in exchange for Albus's protection of the Potters, and in his protection of Harry for Lily's sake.

Totally OT, but why would James be imagined not to be? He became an Animagus and pursued a girl who announced to the world that she thought him an arrogant, bullying toerag.