U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

[Mundungus Fletc]

Originally Posted by unconvinced

Just a note on how other countries look at gun possession, a grandmother was found with a old WW2 pistol under her bed, she had never fired it, had no ammo for it and had merely taken possession of it from her father when he died. Despite all this Scots law says unauthorised gun ownership comes with an automatic 5 year jail term which is exactly what she got. Just an interesting comparison.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10335003.stm)

(Am right in thinking this is the only gun law thread? My search didn't bring up anything else)

Scottish law on gun ownership is indeed draconian - but given the Dunblane massacre hardly surprising

[Linda86]

Originally Posted by Wab

Which leads to the question: What is it about Americans that make them so much more murdrous than the rest of the western world?

I think it's because we have the second amendment & making guns easily to possess. With so many weapons in our environment, it influences us to be violent. I think this theory is called the weapon theory? When a weapon is not in a room, the person is calm & not quick to anger. When a weapon is in a room, the person gets a little violent.

I wouldn't lose sleep if the second amendment was abolished. That amendment was adopted during a time of revolution & war. The Founding Fathers found it a necessary component because of what was happening. We no longer have to fear enemy soldiers taking residence on our property.

[Klio]

Originally Posted by Linda86

When a weapon is not in a room, the person is calm & not quick to anger. When a weapon is in a room, the person gets a little violent.

I wouldn't quite put it like this.

What I'd say is this:

If a person freaks out and a weapon is in the room (with easily available ammunition etc), there is a bigger chance that they hurt somebody very seriously.

In other words, I am not sure whether people get angry more eaily because a gun is available. But when they are angry, the consequences might be worse.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by unconvinced

Just a note on how other countries look at gun possession, a grandmother was found with a old WW2 pistol under her bed, she had never fired it, had no ammo for it and had merely taken possession of it from her father when he died. Despite all this Scots law says unauthorised gun ownership comes with an automatic 5 year jail term which is exactly what she got. Just an interesting comparison.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10335003.stm)

(Am right in thinking this is the only gun law thread? My search didn't bring up anything else)

Maybe if I grew up in another country where gun laws were stricter I would think differently, but wow, that sounds awful. I guess she deserves punishment for unauthorised gun ownership, but 5 years in jail?

[Klio]

Originally Posted by leah49

Maybe if I grew up in another country where gun laws were stricter I would think differently, but wow, that sounds awful. I guess she deserves punishment for unauthorised gun ownership, but 5 years in jail?

I am all for Scottish strict gun laws, but I. too, think that this is too harsh.

IMHO, this comes from making knee-jerk laws in the wake of terrible tragedies, when emotions run too high for making good laws. And I am generally against mandatory sentences. Judges should be free to decide the punishment on the basis of the case in hand - and it shouldn't be up to politicians to determine mandatory minimum sentences, because you never know who'll be caught by such a measure.

But alas, the press and 'popular opinion' tends to demand minimum sentences out of fear that criminals will be handled too leniently.

ANd that's the kind of thing one gets as a consequence.

[Wab]

That's the problem with mandatory minimum penalties. As Klio said they are usually passsed during the time of a moral panic, they deny the defendant the basic right to receive a punishment which is proportional to the offence and their prior record.

[Midnightsfire]

Originally Posted by Linda86

I think it's because we have the second amendment & making guns easily to possess. With so many weapons in our environment, it influences us to be violent. I think this theory is called the weapon theory? When a weapon is not in a room, the person is calm & not quick to anger. When a weapon is in a room, the person gets a little violent.

No.
Statistically speaking, Americans aren't any more murderous than any other people in any other western country.

[Wab]

Statistically it is.

The US is 24th in murders per capita with 0.042802 per 1,000 people.

The nearest established western democracy is Finland at 30th with 0.0283362 per 1,000 people.

UK, Australia, Canda, Germany and France come in at 46th, 43rd, 44th, 49th and 40th.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

[Mundungus Fletc]

Originally Posted by leah49

Maybe if I grew up in another country where gun laws were stricter I would think differently, but wow, that sounds awful. I guess she deserves punishment for unauthorised gun ownership, but 5 years in jail?

I would like to know more about the case - if I had inherited something from my father (whether a gun or anything else) I think it very unlikely I would keep it under the mattress. The case, as stated by the news report seems very simplistic. A jury was able to convict her

[Wab]

The Scotsman has a longer article placing the incident more in context and includes the judge's reasoning.

[Midnightsfire]

Originally Posted by Wab

Statistically it is.

The US is 24th in murders per capita with 0.042802 per 1,000 people.

The nearest established western democracy is Finland at 30th with 0.0283362 per 1,000 people.

UK, Australia, Canda, Germany and France come in at 46th, 43rd, 44th, 49th and 40th.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

No.

How you define the "West" is erroneous.

The western hemisphere doesn't include quite a few countries. 24th is a far cry anywho. And how does ownership of firearms play a part in the first 23 countries?

And since automobiles kill far more people in the US than firearms(3x more)...and cigarettes even moreso (10x more)...it seems we really do have a problem, but not just with firearms it seems.

[unconvinced]

Originally Posted by Wab

That's the problem with mandatory minimum penalties. As Klio said they are usually passsed during the time of a moral panic, they deny the defendant the basic right to receive a punishment which is proportional to the offence and their prior record.

Although in this case the judge said that there was no reason not to give a 5 year term. I think the main point was she had 23 years to hand it in and simply refused to.

[Wab]

Originally Posted by Midnightsfire

No.

How you define the "West" is erroneous.

The western hemisphere doesn't include quite a few countries. 24th is a far cry anywho. And how does ownership of firearms play a part in the first 23 countries?

I used the correct political defintition of western and not a geographical quibble.

And my question wasn't about firearms, but the nature of the people.