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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9



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  #201  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 6:38 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
I'm not sure I understand this at all. We didn't see if Draco took the Dittany at once. And we didn't see if James took the Dittany either. Neither was important to the plot.
HBP"You need the hospital wing. There may be a certain amount of scarring, but if you take dittany immediately, we might avoid even that....come..."


Exactly, we don;t see James taking any dittany, which means he would have had the scar like George and possibly Draco and that would have been a big thing at that time, for Madam Pomfrey would have called it dark magic and that would have sparked off an investigation IMO.

No to mention that Snape never needed to use the counter song like spell to stop the bleeding in James's cheek IMO.

Quote:
Is this supposed to support the idea that it wasn't Sectumsempra that Snape used. It seems very likely that it was. We know it was his speciality and it did cut James face with a gesture from Snape.
Yes. The spell is not mentioned in canon and there is no indication that the spell showed the characteristics of the sectumsempra and no one mentioned about it either IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
James may have had a scar for all we know. He was never described in detail. It would not have been a very noticeable one I shouldn't think. Did he never get a single scar or mark while playing Quidditch? I doubt it, but we never hear of those either.
He may have had the scar, in which case I think Sirius and Remus would not have sounded so defencive in Career's Advice. They would have told Harry, who was desperately wanting to hear something like this anyway, that "Snape used dark magic on them, what would Harry expect them to do. They had to retaliate."IMO

They would not have called themselves arrogant berks and they grew out of it. They were trying to explain their bad behaviour was how it looked to me, rather than explain Snape's attitude, which made them react so IMO.


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  #202  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 7:29 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Exactly, we don;t see James taking any dittany, which means he would have had the scar like George and possibly Draco and that would have been a big thing at that time, for Madam Pomfrey would have called it dark magic and that would have sparked off an investigation IMO.
We have no idea what happened after that scene, and we don't even know if Snape was the only one who knew the singing cure. I don't think this kind of speculation is productive since there is absolutely no proof one way or the other. We don't know if the scar on James's face was cured, and we don't know if James had a scar. We don't know if he used Dittany, and we don't know anything more than was in print. And what was in print sure looked like Sectumsempra.


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  #203  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 7:53 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

In DH, no one knew the cure to the sectumsempra, even when they knew enough about the curse to recognize it IMO. That was why I feel it was not the sectumsempra that was cast at James in the SWM.


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  #204  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 7:53 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

I know I belong to the other camp, but to me it seemed clear that Sectumsempra was invented by Severus... It was what I gathered from the information in the text, and I never found any reason to question this assumption. Of course we can prove that it cannot be proven that it was Snape's invention - but this is not a real textual reason to suppose that it actually wasn't. I think that if it wasn't, there would've been a clearer indication to that which would override the fact that it was written in his textbook with a specification of its purpose handwritten by Severus, AND there would have been an actual reason to suppose it wasn't invented by him. I really don't see any such reason.

Also, the fact that not only did he immediately recognize Sectumsempra, but also knew right away that Harry must have gotten it from his old textbook, is a pretty big sign that it was his invention - otherwise Harry could've learnt it anywhere, and Snape wouldn't have reasons to immediately jump to his old textbook as the obvious answer to the source of Harry's knowledge.


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  #205  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 3:17 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Also, the fact that not only did he immediately recognize Sectumsempra, but also knew right away that Harry must have gotten it from his old textbook, is a pretty big sign that it was his invention - otherwise Harry could've learnt it anywhere, and Snape wouldn't have reasons to immediately jump to his old textbook as the obvious answer to the source of Harry's knowledge.
This is what pretty much clinches it for me as well - unless the spell is a really obscure dark curse that Snape wrote down so he'd remember it. But that doesn't seem as likely to me as the other explanation (ie that he made it up).


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  #206  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 3:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Also, the fact that not only did he immediately recognize Sectumsempra, but also knew right away that Harry must have gotten it from his old textbook, is a pretty big sign that it was his invention - otherwise Harry could've learnt it anywhere, and Snape wouldn't have reasons to immediately jump to his old textbook as the obvious answer to the source of Harry's knowledge.
His recognition of it is in line with his general expertise on Dark Arts/DADA. I did not see this as any different that his knowing what Neville had done wrong on any given occasion in Potions class. Unless there are a suite of spells that have this similar effect (in which case, why suppose he invented one of them?), the symptoms are pretty distinctive.

Snape has shown some ability to tell when Harry is lying before. Especially when facts do not add up. And they don't - a library book that presented this spell, would explain its uses and effects, would it not? And casting about for other explanations, Snape could easily recall the recurrence of his old hexes at the school along with Harry's sudden briliance at Potions, and start to have a suspicion.

I though is needing to ask, suggested it was not his invention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
In DH, no one knew the cure to the sectumsempra, even when they knew enough about the curse to recognize it IMO. That was why I feel it was not the sectumsempra that was cast at James in the SWM.
In DH the spell was used once, and with a spoken incantation. So identifying it, was not an issue.

If it was used in SWM (and there are reasons to suppose not, perhaps especially if Snape did invent it), it was used non-verbally.


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  #207  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 4:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Yes, but apart from the fact that it cannot be proved with absolute certaintly that he invented it, is there a reason to suppose he didn't? Anything in the texts which overrides the fact that it was written in his textbook by his hand with an indication for its use, and NO hint to favour the "he copied" it theory over the "he invented it" one?


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  #208  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 4:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Yes, but apart from the fact that it cannot be proved with absolute certaintly that he invented it, is there a reason to suppose he didn't? Anything in the texts which overrides the fact that it was written in his textbook by his hand with an indication for its use, and NO hint to favour the "he copied" it theory over the "he invented it" one?
That it is written in his book, proves he wrote it there, not that he invented it. As for the hint that he did not, (emphasis mine)

HBP, "Sectumsempra""Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"


Harry, the only person who has seen the various spells he learned from the book, (that he had "pored over" on various occasions, see cite below) and how they were presented, and worked out, and described and written there, asserts the Prince did not invent it as if this were a FACT. Not a suggestion, or a possibility, but a fact. This seems not only a hint, but a big hint, to me. I would certainly point to it as the reason that I never considered Snape might have invented the spell, until I saw the proposal made on this forum, which I joined after reading HBP.

This is in contrast to, for example, this passage:

HBP, "Silver and Opals""The more Harry pored over the book, the more he realized how much was in there, not only the handy hints and shortcuts on Potions that were earning him such a glowing repuation with Slughorn, but also the imaginative jinxes and hexes scribbled in the margins, whcih Harry was sure, judging by the crossings-out and revisions, that the Prince had invented himself.

Harry had already attempted a few of the Prince's self-invented spells.


I do see the evidence for the contrary view, but would certainly not agree that it is decisive, or somehow more founded in the text.


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  #209  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 4:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in HBP, when Snape is running and Harry chasing him and trying to curse him, I remember Snape telling Harry something about daring to use his own (Snape's) spells, which he;d invented, against him. Was he referring to Levicorpus or Sectumsempra? Harry didn't know who the inventor of the spell/s was until then, but hearing it from Snape himself might make it conclusive.


  #210  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 4:42 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusilla View Post
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in HBP, when Snape is running and Harry chasing him and trying to curse him, I remember Snape telling Harry something about daring to use his own (Snape's) spells, which he'd invented, against him. Was he referring to Levicorpus or Sectumsempra? Harry didn't know who the inventor of the spell/s was until then, but hearing it from Snape himself might make it conclusive.
Harry used both Sectumsempra and Levicorpus. It was the latter spell that apparently provoked the quote you mention. But as you can see, in that quote, Snape does not name the spell(s) to which he refers:

HBP, "The Flight of the Prince""No, Potter!"
...
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"


I would point out, that if Snape is not using the plural to denote a general willingness by James and Harry to use any or all inventions of Snape against Snape, that if Snape means specifically Sectumsempra and Levicorpus by "them", "spells", and "inventions", then it follows that James used Sectumsempra against Snape.

And by this point, Snape knows that Harry has been using his old book all year and knows lots of his spells. So Harry's use of just one, proves Harry's willingness to use them against Snape. I find both assertions a tortured reading that relies too heavily on assuming great precision of language in a situation where it is not called for. (Both emotionally and in terms of the patterns of colloquial speech, the plural here could indicate a belief in a general willingness to use any and all of the spells Snape knows Harry knows, based on the use of only one spell Snape has invented in that particualr scene.)


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“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

“They do it perfectly in the film, that was a place I-where I was really glad they were faithful to the book, because Snape’s journey is so important, and such a linchpin of the books, and it can’t function without Snape-"
-- J. K. Rowling


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Last edited by arithmancer; September 2nd, 2008 at 4:48 pm.
  #211  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 4:46 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
That it is written in his book, proves he wrote it there, not that he invented it.
Yes, I get this part. But lack of solid proof that he invented it by no means equals a hint that he didn't.

Quote:
As for the hint that he did not, (emphasis mine)

HBP, "Sectumsempra""Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"


Harry, the only person who has seen the various spells he learned from the book, (that he had "pored over" on various occasions, see cite below) and how they were presented, and worked out, and described and written there, asserts the Prince did not invent it as if this were a FACT. Not a suggestion, or a possibility, but a fact. This seems not only a hint, but a big hint, to me. I would certainly point to it as the reason that I never considered Snape might have invented the spell, until I saw the proposal made on this forum, which I joined after reading HBP.
But Zara, we always question Harry's judgement when he's biased (as with Snape). And he's clearly biased here, because he's defending the book and his own use of Sectumsempra from Hermione. That's hardly a well-weighed, reasonable conclusion made by Harry after examination of the writing of the spell. It's him looking for ways to justify what he did. I certainly can't see it as a clue that the spell was indeed copied out - it looks much more like a straw-man argument on Harry's part.

Quote:
HBP, "Silver and Opals""The more Harry pored over the book, the more he realized how much was in there, not only the handy hints and shortcuts on Potions that were earning him such a glowing repuation with Slughorn, but also the imaginative jinxes and hexes scribbled in the margins, whcih Harry was sure, judging by the crossings-out and revisions, that the Prince had invented himself.

Harry had already attempted a few of the Prince's self-invented spells.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see more reason to conclude that he did invent it than that he didn't. Like the fact that he knew immediately where Harry had learnt it, his use of the plural when telling Harry not to use his own spells against him - after Harry had consecutively thought both Levicorpus and Sectumsempra, and the plain fact that it was where all his other inventions were, with an indication on its use. I find this more convincing than a single instance in which Harry shouts that it was only copied out, in the middle of a very defensive speech against Hermione's rightful and well-earned reproach.

Quote:
I do see the evidence for the contrary view, but would certainly not agree that it is decisive, or somehow more founded in the text.
I never said it was decisive. All I ever said that this is the view I've always taken, and upon consideratuion, continue to find it more convincing. Of course it's open for interpretation, and I never denied that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
HBP, "The Flight of the Prince""No, Potter!"
...
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"


I would point out, that if Snape is not using the plural to denote a general willingness by James and Harry to use any or all inventions of Snape against Snape, that if Snape means specifically Sectumsempra and Levicorpus by "them", "spells", and "inventions", then it follows that James used Sectumsempra against Snape.
In any case, the use of the plural likely indicates that Snape is aware that Harry had used more than one of his inventions against him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
And by this point, Snape knows that Harry has been using his old book all year and knows lots of his spells. So Harry's use of just one, proves Harry's willingness to use them against Snape. I find both assertions a tortured reading that relies too heavily on assuming great precision of language in a situation where it is not called for. (Both emotionally and in terms of the patterns of colloquial speech, the plural here could indicate a belief in a general willingness to use any and all of the spells Snape knows Harry knows, based on the use of only one spell Snape has invented in that particualr scene.)
But... isn't the bolded part quite a tortured reading too? I mean, you have to sit down and purposefully look for ways that the plural may indicate something else than what its first purpose is - more than one of a kind (in this case, spells).


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Last edited by Yoana; September 2nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm.
  #212  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 5:04 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
But Zara, we always question Harry's judgement when he's biased (as with Snape). And he's clearly biased here, because he's defending the book and his own use of Sectumsempra from Hermione. That's hardly a well-weighed, reasonable conclusion made by Harry after examination of the writing of the spell. It's him looking for ways to justify what he did. I certainly can't see it as a clue that the spell was indeed copied out - it looks much more like a straw-man argument on Harry's part.
I question Harry's judgment when it seems to me that I have as much information as he does, and especially when it comes to evaluation the emotional states of other people, rather than facts.

This is not such a case, in my view. First of all, it is about facts and not emotions. Even if Harry is emotional when he states the fact the spell was copied, thre is no evidence he invented this fact right then and there, he seems to me to believe that fact. Note he states the copying as a fact, but offers a mere hypothesis, one that is definitely slanted in the Prince's favor, as to where he found it. I would certainly not use this passage to argue against the idea that Snape read books on "such Dark Magic" as a student, or that Mulciber tried it on Mary and that is where he learned it, or what have you, I think such a thing would be the likely source for hinm to have learned it.

The text provides us with brief glimpses of the book, but tells us Harry has spent hours and hours looking through it over the course of the school year. (Tell sus this on like three different occasions in three different chapters!) So when one passage refers to corrections and calls a spell "self-invented", I accept that. And when two other passages 1) fail to call a spell self-invented, and fail to mention corrections, and 2) state a spell was copied, I accept that as well.

To me, this is directly comparable to, for example, the scene in "The Prince's Tale" in which we see Snape cut off George's ear. Harry asserts as fact, that Snape was aiming at the hand of a DE who was aiming at Lupin's back. I do not require that the text provide me with a lengthy word picture of the relative velocities and positions of each player in this mini drama, their expressions, motions, etc. in order to believe Harry. I accept that he is there and he has seen them all, and they are such that he can assert, as fact, what Snape was attempting there.


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  #213  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 5:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Emphasis mine:

HBP, "Sectumsempra""Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"


HBP, "Silver and Opals""The more Harry pored over the book, the more he realized how much was in there, not only the handy hints and shortcuts on Potions that were earning him such a glowing repuation with Slughorn, but also the imaginative jinxes and hexes scribbled in the margins, whcih Harry was sure, judging by the crossings-out and revisions, that the Prince had invented himself.

Harry had already attempted a few of the Prince's self-invented spells.

The following refers to the fact that Harry had just tried to use Levicorpus and Sectumsempra against Snape:
HBP, "The Flight of the Prince""No, Potter!"
...
"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"


Thank you for posting those quotes, zgirnius. In the first quote above, I don't think Harry knew whether Snape had copied out the sectumsempra curse or whether he had invented it. Hermione was ragging on him and he was trying to defend the HBP because he found great value in the book. That was my take on that comment.

The strongest evidence to me that Snape invented the Sectumsempra spell comes from his own words to Harry in "The Flight of the Prince."

I really don't see any problems with him having invented it. I believe it shows how talented and resourceful he was.


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  #214  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 5:10 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
But... isn't the bolded part quite a tortured reading too? I mean, you have to sit down and purposefully look for ways that the plural may indicate something else than what its first purpose is - more than one of a kind (in this case, spells).
I did not have to sit down and think of it, what I describe above is an attempt to explain the way I read the scene the first time I saw it. I spent no time thinking of ways around it, I was tearing through the book at breakneck speed. ALso, like Susan Bones, I have no problem with Snape's inventing of this spell. I just don't think he did.

Another bit of evidene, from DH, that confirmed my view to me, was that Lupin knows the spell by name, and knew it by name, apparently, before DH. How, if it was invented by a schoolmate who used it nonverbally already as a 5th year?

Here is a real-life illustration of the English usage I mean:

Josh (my son, 5 1/2): Thomas is a poopy-head!
Me: Josh, it is not nice to call your friends nasty names.

Note the use of the plurals here, it is a widely used sort of turn of phrase. It would be correct also to say, "It is not nice to call your friend a nasty name", but I would actually be far more likely to say the former than the latter.


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-- J. K. Rowling


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Last edited by arithmancer; September 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 pm.
  #215  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 6:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Another bit of evidene, from DH, that confirmed my view to me, was that Lupin knows the spell by name, and knew it by name, apparently, before DH. How, if it was invented by a schoolmate who used it nonverbally already as a 5th year?
In answer, it is highly unlikely that Snape would have used the spell non verbally at first whether he had invented it or not - unless he took time to practice it in that manner prior to using it. So it would be likely Remus heard it prior to Snape using it non verbally.

Nonetheless, even if used non verbally all the time; Remus would have recognized it just as many readers have. He did hear it during 7 Potters and he would have recognized it from their youth and finally had a name to put upon it.

In my opinion, whether Snape invented it or searched dark arts tomes to find it or learned it from his buddies, is immaterial. He wrote it in his book, marked it 'for enemies' and used it, imo, and that is really all we need to know to confirm that he was using Dark Arts at Hogwarts. Remus could not have ascertained that it was Snape's "specialty" at any other time as they were not together at any other time during their lives until teaching at Hogwarts according to the canon. I doubt Snape made it his specialty during that year, cursing students or what have you.

In my view, JKR was more concerned with ensuring that the readers understood Snape invented Levicorpus, in order to lessen James culpability in SWM. Using Snape's own spell against him, most readers imo, would interpret to mean Snape had been using it against others. She also had Lupin indicate it was used so frequently you couldn't walk 5 feet without someone doing it to you. That was so we would not think James created this spell (also used by Death Eaters in GoF) specifically to humiliate Snape - but rather he was being humiliated the same as everyone else - and Snape introduced it. JKR's point in SWM was that James and Sirius started things - but the further rampant speculation that I recall happening after that book was published was not what she had intended, so she corrected some associated notions.

Sectumsempra I saw as an added invention in order to show that Snape was inventing dark arts at the time, in connection with his interest. His interest had been stated, and shown (OOTP). But as it appeared to be largely ignored because Harry largely ignored it, it was reemphasized in HBP (both by Snape claiming ownership of the spell - and Harry reminding readers that he'd called his mum a Mudblood). Finally, we were given more information in DH-TPT - otherwise Lily would have seemed to have been basing her ideas about Snape on hearsay alone, which would have been a decidedly unfair reason to end the friendship, imo.


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  #216  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 8:33 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I question Harry's judgment when it seems to me that I have as much information as he does, and especially when it comes to evaluation the emotional states of other people, rather than facts.
But what he said in this scene was fully charged by emotion - guilt. To me, it's clear that he's looking for ways to exonerate himself and the textbook, because he knows Hermione is right, but is too biased and too fond of the book to admit it. That's why I see plenty of reason not to take his words as plain factual information. I think they're far from that, and that's why I'm not convinced.

Quote:
This is not such a case, in my view. First of all, it is about facts and not emotions. Even if Harry is emotional when he states the fact the spell was copied, thre is no evidence he invented this fact right then and there, he seems to me to believe that fact.
Of course, and this a typical behaviour when trying to find excuses, which Harry is doing in this scene. He's throwing out possible mitigating factors, because he's extremely partial to the Prince.

Quote:
Note he states the copying as a fact, but offers a mere hypothesis, one that is definitely slanted in the Prince's favor, as to where he found it.
Well, you certainly have a point here, and I now I see it can definitely be seen this way. I just never did see it, personally, it always seemed to me that all of it was excuses, at which Haryy was grasping in defence. But this is just my personal understanding of the scene.

Quote:
To me, this is directly comparable to, for example, the scene in "The Prince's Tale" in which we see Snape cut off George's ear. Harry asserts as fact, that Snape was aiming at the hand of a DE who was aiming at Lupin's back.
I don't think they're analogous. When Hary stated that about Snape's aim, there was only one reason for him to state it - to point it out to the reader. When he says the Prince only copied the spell out, the text provides another reason for his making this statement (and for me, it was the first reason I saw) - he really really wants to exonerate the Prince, because he's too fond of him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I did not have to sit down and think of it, what I describe above is an attempt to explain the way I read the scene the first time I saw it. I spent no time thinking of ways around it, I was tearing through the book at breakneck speed. ALso, like Susan Bones, I have no problem with Snape's inventing of this spell.
Hey, I never said that you did, neither did I imply it. I only said how the proposed reading looked in my eyes, neither making nor meaning any implications about your reasons for proposing it. Of course my being a non-native speaker reduces my capaity to assess which reading is tortured and which is "natural" (if there even is one), but assuming that "my spells", shouted by Snape directly after, and likely provoked by, two consecutive spells Harry attempted, both learnt by him from Snape's textbook, refers to those two spells doesn't seem a tortured reading to me, no matter how I try to see it. It seems logical - not the only possible explanation, but quite logical.

Quote:
Here is a real-life illustration of the English usage I mean:

Josh (my son, 5 1/2): Thomas is a poopy-head!
Me: Josh, it is not nice to call your friends nasty names.

Note the use of the plurals here, it is a widely used sort of turn of phrase. It would be correct also to say, "It is not nice to call your friend a nasty name", but I would actually be far more likely to say the former than the latter.
Thank you for providing an example.

In the context of Snape's use of the plural, however, I'm inclined to believe Sectumsempra did fall under that use - because this sentence directly followed Harry's attempts at both spells (as far as I remember) - this proximity implies a ligical connection, in my opinion, and I did see it as a way to reveal th inventor of the spells Harry had been using.

As I said, all of this is merely how I interpret and see it; I agree wholeheartedly it can be seen in other ways too and have nothing against others seeing it differently (and I am sincerely sorry if I made it seem like I thought mine was the only, or best, option); I do not, and have not, at any time, supposed that you have a problem with Severus's inventing the spell, Zara, and never meant to imply any such thing, or that you see in it what you want to see in it (which I feel you might have taken away from my posts) - I don't doubt that your opinion is carefully thought-out and well reasoned, as is the case with all your positions.


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Last edited by Yoana; September 2nd, 2008 at 8:38 pm.
  #217  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 9:11 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Lupin considered Sectumsempra to be Snape's specialty, showing that he was known to use it, and of course other DEs must've picked up on it. Therefore, it wouldn't have been too obscure at this point, and the fact that Harry used it wouldn't have made Snape jump to conclusions that he got it from his old textbook, since there were other ways Harry could've found it out. I mean, even Lupin knew about it by DH at least.

If Snape hadn't invented it, but just copied it, would he really remember years later that he happened to jot down a spell in the margin of his textbook? I'd think he'd be more likely to remember the Dark Arts book he read it in, or another Slytherin teaching it to him, had that been the case...but to him, the fact that Harry knows it at all seems to be a clear indication that he must've read it in his old potions book. He does use Legilimency on Harry to see the book, but I'm guessing this is because he already suspects the source.

I'm not sure if these arguments fully prove my point, but I stand by my belief that he invented Sectumsempra. That also fits in with the fact that Harry first learns of somewhat harmless hexes...but that the spells increase in nastiness, possibly representing Snape's growing interest in the Dark Arts. He may not have invented the spells in that order, but I think the order in which Harry discovers them shows a kind of progression. And by the end of the book, the HBP goes from just making notes about potions to inventing Sectumsempra...and then killing Dumbledore. Of course, it's made clear that Snape is good in DH, but in HBP, we kind of see him going down the wrong path...which he did during his years at Hogwarts.

Anyway, we already knew he was interested in the Dark Arts. I don't think the fact that he copied a Dark Spell adds anything to our knowledge of him. Inventing one, on the other hand, adds dimension to his character and shows how bright he really is (though he may have been misguided).

I do think there's a good chance he used it on James because we see Levicorpus used, and later we find out more about it, and the same would apply to Sectumsempra. JKR likes showing us a scene and then later explaining the significances of its events (or giving us a bigger picture). It's like how we didn't know Snape was "that awful boy" but later found out....We also didn't know he invented two of the spells used in SWM.


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  #218  
Old September 2nd, 2008, 9:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
HBP, "Sectumsempra""Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"
But Harry was all about defending the Prince at this point, while Hermione was about attacking him. Harry didn't know whether or not Snape had copied it down, he was just saying that he had because he wanted to remain convinced that the Prince was actually a good guy. Because at this point he still was convinced of the Prince's brilliance and didn't know it was Snape. I don't think that line means anything.


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  #219  
Old September 3rd, 2008, 1:32 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius HBP, "Sectumsempra""Will you stop harping about the book!" snapped Harry. "The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathlyH View Post
But Harry was all about defending the Prince at this point, while Hermione was about attacking him. Harry didn't know whether or not Snape had copied it down, he was just saying that he had because he wanted to remain convinced that the Prince was actually a good guy. Because at this point he still was convinced of the Prince's brilliance and didn't know it was Snape. I don't think that line means anything.

Especially considering the text just before that, helping us understand Harry's emotional demeanor and attitude at the time:

HBP Sectumsempra"[Ginny] would be playing Seeker on Saturday and...Dean would be rejoining the team as Chaser in her place. Perhaps, if they won, Ginny and Dean would make up during hte post match euphoria...the thought went through Harry like an icy knife...

"Harry,' said Hermione, 'how can you still stick up for that book when that spell-'

"Will you stop harping on about the book!' snapped Harry. The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"

My interpretation was that Harry was not only making excuses there, but he was raging with jealousy and bit Hermione's head off as an outlet for his emotions. At the same time he was defending himself because he still wished to use the book and he had hope that the "Prince" was someone upstanding (in his view). Later in HBP, he determines the book is evil, the way he sees Snape at that point and no longer wants anything to do with the book, despite its previous helpful nature.

So I would agree with Yoana's take here and DeathlyH's. Too Lucretia's because I felt the analysis she rendered regarding Snape's character in HBP was right on the money with respect to my own view. In fact, the build up of Snape's truthful nature in DH; heavily leaning toward the negative aspects of it, was almost overkill and one of the primary reasons I saw thru JKR's ruse when she had Snape kill Dumbledore (other than Dumbledore would never beg a Death Eater to spare his life - that was mega out of charcter.)

But as I saw it; Snape would lie, unaware how easily they could be seen through; and the worst memory was because of his calling Lily a Mudblood, because the humiliation he faced was no more than the rest of the school was facing - and what he was causing others to face (Flight of the Prince); and he was actually fascinated with the dark arts, even as young, and he really did create dark curses (Sectumsempra); and he really did carry the prophecy to Voldemort, colluding to kill the Potters, and Harry did notice his calling his mother a Mudblood, and he acknowledged his hatred for his father; and he really did make a side deal to kill Dumbledore with Narcissa, and he really would give a torturous detention (with the cards immediately following Sirius' death and the ever loss and sorrow Harry felt for his father's death - and the constant reminder of Peter's trechery); and he did loathe Harry to the point where he would taunt him about his father immediately following Dumbledore's death, then whip Harry even when the danger had passed ~ and have to be chased away from the deed.

All of these things were true and remained true even after the revelations in DH, imo. But until DH, one could categorize them as the acts of of a man on the side of Evil. After DH, a line could be drawn from the time Snape was a DE and turned to the good side; yet still an good number of his negative behavior and acts were done after the turn (and that includes those achieved prior to HBP).


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; September 3rd, 2008 at 1:39 am.
  #220  
Old September 3rd, 2008, 2:09 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.9

I'm so happy. We have an actual discussion rather than a constant volley of "Snape is good!", "Snape is eeeevil", "Snape is good!", etc.

I have to say, Harry's emotional state when he says that the Prince only copied it down is important, IMO. The way I read the scene, Harry is rather desperate to prove his new friend would never try to cause that much harm to another person. As I said before, it's still a plausible theory, but I don't think the definite wording he used truly indicates that it's a fact.
Harry is only getting to know Snape here. IMHO, he cannot yet be considered an expert in all things Snape.


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